Do you think this allied attachment is too confusing for Throne Of Skulls?

[Proiteus]

Hi everyone I'd like your opinion regarding some models that have been brought into question by the GW events team.

See I play a Grot Rebel themed Imperial guard army which I've been re-building and improving over the last several months from it's previous version which was about 'average' in appearance. My goal was to get them done in time for this month's Throne Of Skulls tournament. I've attended GW events before with the army and it has been well received both by players and GW staff, but with the new strict Warrior's code I thought it best just to check with them.

They have no issue with the newly remade units such as the veteran and command squad below, nor with any of the vehicles.


http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/357/2/5/grot_rebel_veteran_squad___da_boom_blastaz_by_proi teus-d6z3y22.jpg
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/262/3/9/grot_rebelz_kommand_squad_by_proiteus-d6mx296.jpg

However they've deemed the newest edition to the army 'confusing' which is a squad of allied Nob Bikers and Warboss, modelled as a Grot Battlesuit with enslaved Cybork bodyguard. The reason being Gretchins and Orks being from the same codex so they're worried players will find it confusing with a gretchin guard army having Ork allies.


http://th04.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2014/044/e/4/grot_warboss_mecha___the_warbot__by_proiteus-d60meqh.jpg
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/057/d/3/nob_bikers_by_proiteus-d782wj9.jpg

I can understand where they're coming from, but it's only 6 miniatures and with the exception of the Warbot they're all clearly modeled as orks and with a different appearance to the gretchin guard army, I've mentioned this and the fact most opponents will understand when given a copy of my army list. But still their reply was...


After consulting with the team I'm afraid that our concerns are uniform so the answer is no. I understand that you are confident that you can explain the difference but that does not change the reality that the models being used are from the same codex, but actually aren't.

I respect their decision and would be more than happy to create 515pts of replacement units, but I've got only 20 days to create alternative units on top of painting 4 vehciles, I was preprared for small tweaks from a possible guard codex but not filling a 515pt in a short space of time without rushing it?

So would you have any problems with my Grot Rebel Guard having an allied unit of Nob Bikers?

Depending on the votes I ask the events team if I can be allowed to use them in the event I'm unable to complete a Baneblade in time, cause no one should be forced to rush an army towards competition. However if the votes go negatively I'll won't field them at indie tournaments either.

BTW here's the quick run down of the army...

Command Squad
Marbo
X3 Veteran Squads (all with same equipment)
X2 Chimeras
Leman Russ
Vendetta
Defence Line

Warboss & 5 Nob Bikers

[Badtucker]

Great models by the way!!!

I can see where GW are coming from, its the whole unified greenskin theme/ yet from different armies ( guard and orks) the confusing thing is mistaking the orks for say, rough riders or players assuming the grots are just converted ork boys or units of grots even .
I myself play with many converted things at GW tournies and sent in emails also to see if they were valid (Chaos spawn made from ogres and other bits and a jugger lord made from the new carnosaur model) all of which were approved. They are quite obvious what they are ment to be but i did worry a wee bit. I suspect its the fact your army comprises of two separate armies that look like one. It may be a tad confusing.

[Denzark]

I think you are lucky to get away with any of it at ToS - by the book (Warrior's Code) you can't have counts as or proxies. Looking above, the 2 top units are hugely cool and well executed. But the single 2 things I can recognise at a glance is a Commissar and heavy weapon teams.

I'm sure you've got a good explanation for them all - did I see your army at WW before and did you have graphics representing all the units for quick consultation? Good for you if so. But I wouldn't want to have to be consulting some sheet all the time just to get my target priority right.

I think you should field them as you please in indie tournaments and not at ToS.

[daboarder]

That looks too awesome NOT to have a game against

[Defenestratus]

Hrm.

BS meter is jumping - pretty sure this was a post to promote your admittedly awesome models - but no... nobody with two brain cells to rub together should have a problem with your army.

(Mind you that does eliminate roughly 75% of the staff at GW)

[desert_hack]

That's bs. What about Chaos able to ally with Black Legion. Or Eldar able to ally with Iyanden. In each of those cases the primary detachment is practically indistinguishable from the primary.

You should be allowed to use your awesome toys. And they are totally awesome btw. Good work!

[jonsgot]

The models are great. I have no problem with the bikes. The question for me is why are you using grots as guard and not grots.

[Proiteus]

Looking above, the 2 top units are hugely cool and well executed. But the single 2 things I can recognise at a glance is a Commissar and heavy weapon teams.

All the lasguns have been converted to Autoguns and Sub-machine guns and the grenade launchers are represented by the small rokkit launchas on the right, the autocannon and lascannon should be obvious. Although the reference sheet was rarely required with the last version I'll be making one just in case.


That's bs. What about Chaos able to ally with Black Legion. Or Eldar able to ally with Iyanden. In each of those cases the primary detachment is practically indistinguishable from the primary.

Good point, I'll bring that up if I'm unable to complete the alternative unit in time.


The models are great. I have no problem with the bikes. The question for me is why are you using grots as guard and not grots.

I started this army 8 years ago, during that time Gretchin were metal and expensive and an all biker army wasn't really an option if you wanted to play competitively. So I naturally thought "what the 2nd weakest thing in the universe?" answer; guardsmen. It brought a lot more variety to the army with units like Grenaiders (http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs19/i/2014/063/3/8/codex_grot_grenadiers_by_proiteus-d12dm79.jpg), Rough Riders (http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs29/f/2008/063/7/4/Grot_Rebel_Ruff_Riderz_by_Proiteus.jpg), Special Weapon Teams (http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs20/i/2014/063/2/3/codex_weapons_specialists_by_proiteus-d129fd7.jpg), Veteran Squads (http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs19/f/2008/078/2/5/25bcaed2bb215b52.jpg), etc. Since then I've stuck with the codex even when the current ork codex came out and all the toys from Forgeworld became legal.

[jonsgot]

It's a not well thought question, but could you add some guard and use the grots as grots? So that you don't have to proxy your models. I don't play either army anymore so have no idea.

[John Bower]

That's just plain snobbery if you ask me, the models are downright cool, and sorry GW but Rule of Cool wins. If you turned up to play me I'd say, yeah sure, I'll play, I've no issues. Looks waaaay better than plastic and unpainted models on the table.

[Denzark]

That's bs. What about Chaos able to ally with Black Legion. Or Eldar able to ally with Iyanden. In each of those cases the primary detachment is practically indistinguishable from the primary.

You should be allowed to use your awesome toys. And they are totally awesome btw. Good work!

I don't think this applies - especially Black Legion - that is units from the host codex. The problem is that the Primary is entirely proxies/counts-as and the secondary is the actual codex. So me as an opponent look across and see a sea of green - but some aren't greenskins, they are humans. Not the same.


All the lasguns have been converted to Autoguns and Sub-machine guns and the grenade launchers are represented by the small rokkit launchas on the right, the autocannon and lascannon should be obvious. Although the reference sheet was rarely required with the last version I'll be making one just in case.

The fact you need a reference sheet 'just in case' is telling. Now you mention it I can tell auto/lascannon. But I can't tell that the squad is a veteran from an infantry from a conscript from a penal legion. And that is the problem.



I really like this army. But having played the poor fella with Raven Wg, made to get a SM codex just because the units were painted white scars - he was forced to proxy a speeder as a LR FFS - you will be fighting an uphill struggle. I know, why not have an amry using these models - as orks. No allies no fannying around, orks. Solves all your problems of whether or not you get an army done in time.

[Proiteus]

What makes me laugh is that they suggested I instead use them as Rough Rider with the Warboss being the special character, so I can't use them as the proper unit because it will be confusing but Rough Riders is okay?

[Denzark]

Yeah that is a bit strange. I think it is the 1 model range, 2 codexes they are having the issue with.

Again, why not Codex Orks?

[benji2412]

GW have deliberately moved away from the old GT style tournament by encouraging people to bring beautiful armies (and awarding points) but have a problem with this?

If they can't get their head around it, simple daily tasks must be very confusing for them.

[IamtheGodComplex]

I feel the need to qualify my vote. I'd have no problem playing a game vs your army at a game store or gaming club, as part of a narrative event, in my garage, or even at a one day RTT event. In a 2-3 day, 5-8 game GT environment though, I'd not enjoy it, especially if it was later in a long day. While I certainly laud you for your hobby chops, in certain environments armies need to be less works of art and more clear game pieces.

To be fair, with the way GW's coordinating the assault on their system, those environments may not exist 2-3 years from now.

[MacFeegle]

What makes me laugh is that they suggested I instead use them as Rough Rider with the Warboss being the special character, so I can't use them as the proper unit because it will be confusing but Rough Riders is okay?

The argument is that as your army is a proxy, the obvious thing that the cyborks would fill on the organisation chart is the role of rough riders.

The sea of green as two different things is confusing as I see it.

Using the court of public opinion to sway organisers that you are right and they are wrong rarely ends well. You asked for their ruling, they gave it, and gave you reasons and an option to still use your hard work which is more than fair.
I would suggest you start on the Baneblade now rather than waiting the twenty days.

[Christopher Szynkowski]

Let me preface this by saying that I wouldn't have a problem with it, but for a TO I can see why they have ruled the way they have.

They would probably have the same issue if someone showed up with Codex Space Marines using one chapter as primary, another as allies and had them all painted the same and honestly, they don't really look that different from the theme coming from the whole of your army.

[Kevin Finch]

I respect your situation, but I have to agree with the TO. There needs to be A) Some sort of formula that they stick to for ruling; B) Clarity; and C)Distinction. If the formula they choose to include is models from Army A and Battle Bros B can't both be from Codex C, so be it. Just take a step back and look at the situation from a standpoint of someone who hasn't lovingly been following your blood sweat and tears going into these conversions. You're using orc models to represent two different codices in a single army? I think it is definitely unfortunate that you can't use these incredibly thematic models in exactly the way you would like to, but there is a shadow of a doubt of someone having difficulties in game because of a controllable aspect from outside of the game. Would you want to be the guy that loses (or goes on tilt) because you couldn't keep 100% track of what was going on in a game that has defined pieces? Again, this isn't to launch into the models as is v counts as argument, I think you are being given a lot of leeway to do what you want as far as running them as IG, but to press the issue with more levels of complication is a bit greedy.

TL;DR

I love your conversion work, but I think there are too many moving parts in what you are trying to do to make it an army.

[iandanger]

I respect their decision

Can't agree with you there ;)

Honestly that's pretty harsh, reminds me of why I avoid officially sanctioned events with their overly restrictive warriors code! I love the models, absolutely stunning.

[evilamericorp]

No one should have a problem with this. We play this game, and not other games, because GW has the best models with the most potential for cool conversions like this. I enjoy playing because I get to sit across the table from awesome armies like this, and appreciate the time and effort my opponent put into it.

If someone prefaced the game by saying "I am playing a proxied IG army, with a warboss and nob bikers as allies" I would not be confused at all about what anything represented. I'm not retarded. I'm not going to forget halfway through and think "What are those things on bike bases that were Nob Bikers a minute ago? Are they necron immortals now? What is that big mech thing? Is that a unit of kroot?"

[Proiteus]

Just seen the comments on Facebook and I want to make something clear. I know a 3rd argument with a link to this poll ain't going to change the event's team decision which I feel is what some people suspect, that's why I'm working hard at the moment to complete the army and the alternative Baneblade model in time for the tournament.

The point of this poll was to find out if GW has a point and if the Nob Bikers were a step too far regarding the tournament setting (not just at Warhammer World).

I feel feedback is very important regarding converted armies and given the overall results and comments I'd say my Nob Bikers won't be attending any indie tournaments but might make an appearance at a campaign event.

[Chris*ta]

The fact you need a reference sheet 'just in case' is telling. Now you mention it I can tell auto/lascannon. But I can't tell that the squad is a veteran from an infantry from a conscript from a penal legion. And that is the problem.

Umm, the same is true in an IG army using IG models -- there's no established way to model veteran, penal and regular units as different from each other using the standard GW minis -- to put it another way, GW haven't made veteran or penal minis yet.

And more generally to the thread, can we remember the difference between "proxy" and "counts as". Proxy means using one mini to represent another because you don't own the proper mini, whereas counts as is using different minis because you want to represent a unique army on the table that doesn't have a Codex currently.

I don't think it would be a problem to play against this army. As all the veteran squads are equipped identically, there's only 3 or 4 different units you have to keep in mind, which shouldn't be that hard.