New Helbrutes and Crimson Slaughter Codex

[Deadlift]

Seems GW are hell bent on not doing the chaos legions as a standalone codex. So no Death guard, World eaters, Thousand Sons or Emperors Children. Rumours are Crimson Slaughter are next.


via Faeit (http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/helbrute-and-codex-crimson-slaughter.html)

This just in, as we are getting a confirmation that this coming weekend will be the release of a new Helbrute kit, as well as a new codex........ Crimson Slaughter! It looks like new models are on the way, and March is going to be full of Chaos.


Please remember that these are rumors, and I am hoping to get more confirmations of this as the week starts up. Basically we are looking at these becoming available for pre-orders this coming weekend.. March 8th for pre-orders and a March 15th release date

via an anonymous source on Faeit 212


i can confirm that this weekend we will be seeing a chaos box art update and the new hellbrute kit aswell as a crimson slaughter codex release.

from dakka's pizzaguardian 3-3-2014 (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/582824.page)

March CSM releases / repacks

CODEX: CRIMSON SLAUGHTER (ENGLISH) 1 £30,00
CHAOS SPACE MARINE SQUAD 1 £23,50
CHAOS SPACE MARINE HELBRUTE 1 £33,00
CHAOS BIKERS 1 £21,00
CHAOS SPACE MARINE ATTACK FORCE 1 £120,00
CHAOS RHINO 1 £23,50
CHAOS TERMINATOR LORD 1 £15,00
CHAOS SPACE MARINE RAPTORS 1 £21,00
CHAOS SPACE MARINE FORGEFIEND 1 £41,00
CHAOS LAND RAIDER 1 £46,00
CHAOS TERMINATORS 1 £28,00
VISIONS OF HERESY (ENGLISH) 1 £45,00
WHITE DWARF WEEKLY 7 (ENGLISH) 1 £2,40

via Barcode 3-3-2014


7643

via GW Digital's Eddie 3-4-2014

7664

via White Dwarf 3-5-2014


- 72pp codex
- Full history of the fallen Crimson Sables transformation into the Crimson Slaughter
- Warlord Traits
- Relics
- "Echoes of War" Narrative Missions
- Planetstrike & Cities of Death Strategems
- Crimson Slaughter: Possessed can be taken as TROOPS


3-5-2014

We have a cover:
7665

3-5-2014


Helbrute Kit
- Plastic Kit
- CCW Weapons: Scourge, Powerfist (x2), Thunderhammer
- Ranged Weapons: TL Lascannon, Reaper AC, Missile Launcher, Multimelta, Plasma cannon (TL HBs not sighted but HIGHLY probable)
- 6 heads
- 9 lengths of cabling to connect the model sections and allow various poses
- Chaos god-specific front armor plates
- $54


from http://theflyingpredator.blogspot.com/2014/03/helbrutes-incoming.html

7673767476757676

3-8-2014

Possessed Chaos Marines:
Possessed move to Troops
They replace the default Possessed ability chart with this new one:
1: Unit changes from Infantry to Beasts
2: Unit gains a 3+ Invulnerable
3: Unit gains Rending, and wounds on a 3+,

Relics:
- Relic grants 2+ Armor Save, Crusader, It Will Not Die special rules +40pts
- Relic grants access to Divination +25 points.

7753775477557756

Crimson Slaughter Rules: 3-14-2014


Special Rules
All models in the Crimson Slaughter Detachment have Fear.
Crimson Slaughter can ally with as Battle Brothers with Chaos Space Marines
Choose one unit of Chosen to be upgraded at +10pts. Gain preferred enemy.
Possessed are Troops. Roll a d3 at the start of the CS players turn.
1: Unit and Vehicle if embarked are shrouded
2: Unit type becomes Beast
3: Gain a 3+ invul save and rending

Warlord Traits
1. Warlord and unit gain hate, extra bonus's against Dark Angels
2. All enemy units within 12" of warlord suffer a -2 to fear tests
3. Warlord has Rage and Furious Charge, but must charge attempt to assault if within 12"
4. Warlord and unit gain Crusader
5. Enemy models in base contact with Warlord take d6 S3 ap hits at the beginning of each assault phase
6. Warlord has shrouded

Relics
1. Replaces a powermaul on a Dark Apostle S +2 AP4 Concussive and all CS units in 6" gain Zealot
2. Soul Siphon gains powers based off of enemy models removed in close combat. Effects last the rest of the game 1. +1S 3. AP 2 5. +1S 10. Instant Death
3. Furious charge, Hamer of Wrath and rage
4. Gain Divination and can re-roll failed psychic tests. No Deny the Witch bonus's
5. Cannot be taken by a Daemon Prince. Gains 2+ save and it will not die
6. Gain Daemon, Fearless, and fleet, and gains the Crimson Slaughter possessed mutation-roll a d3.

[Mr Mystery]

I can feel the whining from here.....

[lattd]

Aren't crimson slaughter a paint scheme available in DOW 2 and the space marine game? I know they were the focus if the starter set but I think they are older than people remember.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It'll mean that between the two supplement codices, they've got one which represents some of the oldest Veterans of the Long War - the Black Legion - and now a more recently fallen renegade Chapter.

[Ankhalagon]

Still no legions? So still no money GW-morons. Who cares about the next renegades.

[SaveModifier]

Still no legions? So still no money GW-morons. Who cares about the next renegades.

Kids who got the Dark vengence book and liked the Chaos side, people who want to make an army that represents a newly falled force of Space Marines, GW are a business, they know what they want and they know what will sell, and obviously they've decided that a set of Legion books won't, at this moment, be the best thing to release, what if they plan on doing new Greater Daemon models in 9 months time and want to have books to help push those models?

Calling them morons based on this one rumour is ridiculous, you don't know their long term plans

[Wolfshade]

People hear a snippet, make a snap decision get angry, and people wonder why GW do not do open testing and have closed down the rumour mill quite significantly...

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

Like how a very vague rumour of Legion Codecies has now become a promise betrayed by GW..... Despite a lack of corroboration or any kind of evidence to support the Legion books were being worked on at all.

[Wolfshade]

Myth became legend. Legened became history. And for two and a half thousand years, the legion codex passed out of all knowledge

[GravesDisease]

If we insist on playing with toys I guess we should expect to be surrounded by children.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Yey for Chaos!

[Deadlift]

Come on guys I think GW are really missing the mark here with this release. Sure it's going to be cool if proven, but we all know what will happen if and when the big 4 get their own codex/supplement. The excitement from the fans will be massive. I don't know their plans or release schedule but I do know what the majority of players in my area do want to see in the form of chaos supplements and judging by what's written over the internet they aren't alone in clamouring for the Legions / God Aligned rules.

I'm a huge fan of GW models and products, but some of you guys who blindly keep saying that GW are infallible in their release choices and schedules really are blinkered to others opinions.

[Kirsten]

I'm a huge fan of GW models and products, but some of you guys who blindly keep saying that GW are infallible in their release choices and schedules really are blinkered to others opinions.

nobody is saying they are infallible, just pointing out that it is idiotic to complain about getting new releases to play with. for all we know GW might be doing a legion book and spending a long time on it to make it right, and are releasing an easier supplement in the mean time as a nice gesture to gamers.

[Deadlift]

I think it's fair to say Kirsten, there are a fair share of GW "apologists" on many of the forums as well as those who do nothing but complain about them either.
But I don't think it's "idiotic" for someone to dislike a release choice over what could have been.

[DrBored]

Well, yay that Chaos is getting some attention.

Boo that it isn't the Legion or God-Specific stuff we've been SCREAMING about for YEARS.

But hey, codex alongside Helbrute release? Maybe it'll have some altered rules that'll actually make the Helbrute useful?

I'm actually interested to see what they do with this. Yes, it's just one renegade warband, but they've gotta have something more than just a different HQ IC and wargear right? What if there are other adjustments to some of the basic stuff, like Chaos Marines? This could be a blessing in disguise.

[daboarder]

This is either fake. Digital only or the wierdest marketing decision I've ever heard of


Wow man. How septic is that first page? Really guys? Are you serious?

I mean really what the actual **** inspired that? Not to mention the hyperbole and ignorance.

Hey mystery theres an old standard bearer article from years ago or so you might find enlightening. But I guess GW REALLY wants to get the legions right.......

[Charon]

Kids who got the Dark vengence book and liked the Chaos side, people who want to make an army that represents a newly falled force of Space Marines, GW are a business, they know what they want and they know what will sell, and obviously they've decided that a set of Legion books won't, at this moment, be the best thing to release, what if they plan on doing new Greater Daemon models in 9 months time and want to have books to help push those models?

Calling them morons based on this one rumour is ridiculous, you don't know their long term plans

Why should I use any Chaos Codex/Supplement when I want to represent a "newly fallen force of Space Marines"?
Is there any reason not to just use Codex: Space Marines?

The first things you do when you join Chaos:
1) Line up all your Landraider variants, Land Speeder, Whirwinds, Razorbacks, Trikes... if you are done so fill all your droppods explosives and let them fall on top of your lined up vehicles.
2) Tell your Terminators to get rid of these ridiculous Assault Cannons. Thunderhammers, Storm Shields and Cyclones...
3) Tell your Techmarines and Chaplains to never ever use a Bike again because... thats why!
4) Slaughter your Scout squads and burn their equipment.
5) Forget about your training and run away if those pesky Loyalists kill a few of you and dont forget to form a gigantic blob of Marines as you dont know how to form combat squads anymore.

Fluffwise there is no reason to use Codes: CSM to represent ANY kind of Chaos Space Marines. Just go and use Codex: Space Marines and enjoy "count as rules" for your Favorite Legion.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Very odd choice for a codex. I'm not a Chaos player, but I would of thought something like World Eaters or Thousand Sons would be a better choice? Arent those more popular? That said, the choice does make me more curious and intrigued as to what will be in it!

[Mr Mystery]

Why should I use any Chaos Codex/Supplement when I want to represent a "newly fallen force of Space Marines"?
Is there any reason not to just use Codex: Space Marines?

The first things you do when you join Chaos:
1) Likely get mugged for all your best equipment by a larger, more established and better equipped warband
2) Realise that you've also turned your back on your logistical support.
3) And quite possibly killed a bunch of people kind of important to a functioning chapter when you turned (can't say I see Venerable Dreadnoughts quite agreeing to a spot of light heresy. Say good bye to your Techmarines pretty sharpish!
4) Decide that having whatever ships you had to hand taken off you by the same people in 1) leaves you up a certain space creek...

Fluffwise there is no reason to use Codes: CSM to represent ANY kind of Chaos Space Marines. Just go and use Codex: Space Marines and enjoy "count as rules" for your Favorite Legion.

There we go, an altogether more realistic representation of things.

[DrBored]

Why should I use any Chaos Codex/Supplement when I want to represent a "newly fallen force of Space Marines"?
Is there any reason not to just use Codex: Space Marines?

The first things you do when you join Chaos:
1) Line up all your Landraider variants, Land Speeder, Whirwinds, Razorbacks, Trikes... if you are done so fill all your droppods explosives and let them fall on top of your lined up vehicles.
2) Tell your Terminators to get rid of these ridiculous Assault Cannons. Thunderhammers, Storm Shields and Cyclones...
3) Tell your Techmarines and Chaplains to never ever use a Bike again because... thats why!
4) Slaughter your Scout squads and burn their equipment.
5) Forget about your training and run away if those pesky Loyalists kill a few of you and dont forget to form a gigantic blob of Marines as you dont know how to form combat squads anymore.

Fluffwise there is no reason to use Codes: CSM to represent ANY kind of Chaos Space Marines. Just go and use Codex: Space Marines and enjoy "count as rules" for your Favorite Legion.

That's all nice from a 'counts as' standpoint, but we shouldn't have to use the loyalist Codex to represent the bad guys.

That's just...

Wrong.

[SaveModifier]

Why should I use any Chaos Codex/Supplement when I want to represent a "newly fallen force of Space Marines"?
Is there any reason not to just use Codex: Space Marines?

The first things you do when you join Chaos:
1) Line up all your Landraider variants, Land Speeder, Whirwinds, Razorbacks, Trikes... if you are done so fill all your droppods explosives and let them fall on top of your lined up vehicles.
2) Tell your Terminators to get rid of these ridiculous Assault Cannons. Thunderhammers, Storm Shields and Cyclones...
3) Tell your Techmarines and Chaplains to never ever use a Bike again because... thats why!
4) Slaughter your Scout squads and burn their equipment.
5) Forget about your training and run away if those pesky Loyalists kill a few of you and dont forget to form a gigantic blob of Marines as you dont know how to form combat squads anymore.

Fluffwise there is no reason to use Codes: CSM to represent ANY kind of Chaos Space Marines. Just go and use Codex: Space Marines and enjoy "count as rules" for your Favorite Legion.

No one knows anything about this rumour beyond it says there is a Codex: The Crimson Slaughter coming, not that its a supplement from the Chaos Space Marine codex, perhaps it will be a new codex that addresses the issues you're raising? Its not worth arguing about at this point.

And fluff-wise, Codex Chaos Space Marines is better for HH-era traitors, remember that Codex: Space Marines represents Space Marines fighting using the dictates of the Codex Astartes, not how they fought as Legions and not how they fight as disparate warbands formed from the shattered remnants of those Legions, look at how Astartes in the Heresy rules fight, giant blobs of dudes! Bikes were only used as Outriders by the Legions, except for the Khan’s White Scars, so command structures wouldn’t have had access to them as often, But hey, use Codex Space Marines if you want, you won’t get any Daemon Princes, possessed, Daemon Engines

[bfmusashi]

Come on guys I think GW are really missing the mark here with this release. Sure it's going to be cool if proven, but we all know what will happen if and when the big 4 get their own codex/supplement.

Players from the other five legions will complain about how GW hates them?

[Deadlift]

Players from the other five legions will complain about how GW hates them?

Probably :D

[lattd]

It's sad that chaos gets rumoured to be the rest of the month a new book rumour which we have no details for and people still complain rather than be happy it's something.

[Charon]

No one knows anything about this rumour beyond it says there is a Codex: The Crimson Slaughter coming, not that its a supplement from the Chaos Space Marine codex, perhaps it will be a new codex that addresses the issues you're raising? Its not worth arguing about at this point.

And fluff-wise, Codex Chaos Space Marines is better for HH-era traitors, remember that Codex: Space Marines represents Space Marines fighting using the dictates of the Codex Astartes, not how they fought as Legions and not how they fight as disparate warbands formed from the shattered remnants of those Legions, look at how Astartes in the Heresy rules fight, giant blobs of dudes! Bikes were only used as Outriders by the Legions, except for the Khan’s White Scars, so command structures wouldn’t have had access to them as often, But hey, use Codex Space Marines if you want, you won’t get any Daemon Princes, possessed, Daemon Engines

And they still scrapped all their antigrav, drop pods, whirlwinds, land raider variants,... ?
Just take a look at the FW Legions. Thats 30k. Thats what chaos "should have".
And why would I want daemon princes when they are useless anyway? I can still convert that space marine chapter master and call him daemon prince (I dont like this "he got daemonic powers -> he has to be really big now" anyways)
Why do I want to have posessed? They are nice models (maybe use the ones with wings as assault marines) but have bad rules. You can always use your models in the right context but why you want to use crappy rules for your pretty minis?
Oh noez! I cant use daemon engines which lower my BF and eat my marines anymore... why would I miss them when I can get nearly all their advantages and no drawbacks by just using Iron Hand tactics?
Why would I ever miss the Bulldozer Lord when I can have Knights?
Nearly all the stuff you mention is just a pretty conversion with a crappy ruleset. You can ALWAYS convert your minis no need to use a bad ruleset.
Best thing is my Wordbearers can be battlebrothers with their corrupted ex-imperial PDF!

[Wolfshade]

There has been plenty of discussion about this point before and I don't really wish to re-type it all. But essentially from a game mechanics POV there needs to be some seperation between Codex:Space Marine, and Codex:Chaos Space Marine. If Chaos Space Marine have access to all Space Marine wargear/equipment + all the bonuses of the additional units to make them fluffy, then there is little point in playing Codex: Space Marine, and Chaos just become a cool variant of Space Marines. The same argument could be made for Grey Knights, that they should have all of the normal space marine stuff + the cool Grey Knights stuff, the same with BA, DA, SW etc.

At which point you end up with every playing every codex space marine sucessor codex but no one playing the most popularist (in terms of chapters founded) type of marines.

The idea is to create greater variation between army types not less, which I will accept is challenging when we are talking of flavours of space marine. I would love my BA's to have access to thunderfire cannons but alas, I cannot. Similiarly, I am sure there are space marine players who wish they could have Baal Preds and Fast rhino chasis.

[Lord-Boofhead]

And remember Faet never post unsubstantiated rumours by bulldust merchants yanking his chain?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

"it says there is a Codex: The Crimson Slaughter coming, not that its a supplement from the Chaos Space Marine codex"

This is just the shorthand people use for the Supplement books. You'll see "Codex Iyanden" and "Codex Black Legion" referred to as such, as well.

[YourSwordisMine]

As a huge fan of the Dark Vengeance box set, I started a Crimson Slaughter Warband. I look forward to seeing more for them, as I really liked their fluff and their paint scheme. This will be the first supplement book I would actually buy.

[SaveModifier]

And they still scrapped all their antigrav, drop pods, whirlwinds, land raider variants,... ?
Just take a look at the FW Legions. Thats 30k. Thats what chaos "should have".
And why would I want daemon princes when they are useless anyway? I can still convert that space marine chapter master and call him daemon prince (I dont like this "he got daemonic powers -> he has to be really big now" anyways)
Why do I want to have posessed? They are nice models (maybe use the ones with wings as assault marines) but have bad rules. You can always use your models in the right context but why you want to use crappy rules for your pretty minis?
Oh noez! I cant use daemon engines which lower my BF and eat my marines anymore... why would I miss them when I can get nearly all their advantages and no drawbacks by just using Iron Hand tactics?
Why would I ever miss the Bulldozer Lord when I can have Knights?
Nearly all the stuff you mention is just a pretty conversion with a crappy ruleset. You can ALWAYS convert your minis no need to use a bad ruleset.
Best thing is my Wordbearers can be battlebrothers with their corrupted ex-imperial PDF!

So, you don't want to play Chaos then? Why not just play Iron Hands if you don't like anything that makes Chaos, Chaos?

[Charon]

There has been plenty of discussion about this point before and I don't really wish to re-type it all. But essentially from a game mechanics POV there needs to be some seperation between Codex:Space Marine, and Codex:Chaos Space Marine. If Chaos Space Marine have access to all Space Marine wargear/equipment + all the bonuses of the additional units to make them fluffy, then there is little point in playing Codex: Space Marine, and Chaos just become a cool variant of Space Marines. The same argument could be made for Grey Knights, that they should have all of the normal space marine stuff + the cool Grey Knights stuff, the same with BA, DA, SW etc.

At which point you end up with every playing every codex space marine sucessor codex but no one playing the most popularist (in terms of chapters founded) type of marines.

The idea is to create greater variation between army types not less, which I will accept is challenging when we are talking of flavours of space marine. I would love my BA's to have access to thunderfire cannons but alas, I cannot. Similiarly, I am sure there are space marine players who wish they could have Baal Preds and Fast rhino chasis.

Variation is fine and "i want to have it all" is not an issue here.
One could argue that all the DA, BA, SW,... just exist because SM where always the customers darlings and it is a good way to maximise sales without massively expanding the mini range. All use the same tactical squads, cybots, rhinos, drop pods,...
You have no centurions but you get obliterators is a variant.
You have no chapter tactics but you get chaos/legion traits is a variant.
You have no Tech marines but Warpsmiths is a variant.
Variants can vary from slightly better to slightly worse.

But stipping a Space Marine of all traits (ATSKNF, Combat Squad, Chapter tactics) and sellt them as "Chaos" for the same points is no variant. Its a massive downgrade.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Probably :D

Can be pretty much taken as a fact, I think.

[Jared van Kell]

If we insist on playing with toys I guess we should expect to be surrounded by children.

This has more than a ring of truth to it.

JvK :cool:

[Charon]

So, you don't want to play Chaos then? Why not just play Iron Hands if you don't like anything that makes Chaos, Chaos?

If you had read the previous posts you would have found out that im already doing that.
I dont need a special rule named "daemon engine" when I can say "thats not a machine spirit, thats a daemon inside".
Look and style is what makes Chaos "Chaos" not some poorly written rules.

[Mr Mystery]

If you had read the previous posts you would have found out that im already doing that.
I dont need a special rule named "daemon engine" when I can say "thats not a machine spirit, thats a daemon inside".
Look and style is what makes Chaos "Chaos" not some poorly written rules.

Realm of Chaos books, and indeed 40k background kind of disagrees with you. On every point.

[Charon]

So all daemon engines behave the same? They dont disagree with me at all.
There is absolutely no Problem (not in rules and not in fluff) to take a Land Raider put spikes, corpses and tentacles on it and use the bound daemon inside to fire an additional weapon (machine spirit).
There is no problem in the rules or in the fluff to use Codex:Space Marines, Raven Guard to properly display your Nightlords army (in fact this is probably better than using Codex: CSM from a fluff pov).
So. Fluff does not disagree here. Fluff is made up. If I want to have my "Posessed" they probably will happen to "count as" Legion of the damned.
The only stuff you are missing is Daemons. But they are missing in Codex: CSM anyways and became an army of their own. And you can still use them and they happen to "count as" scouts for example.

The big problem here is that Codex Space Marines is a better representation of most traitor Legions (and newcomer traitor space marines) than Codex: CSM ever will be.

[Horncastle]

Got the new White Dwarf today.

Codex:Crimson Slaughter - 72 page supplement for Codex:Chaos Space Marines detailing the Crimson Slaughter once the loyalist Crimson Sabres chapter. Contains rules for fielding them as an army in their own right including warlord traits, relics, etc.
Up for pre-order this weekend for $59.50 CAN, $49.40 US, 30 GBP, $83.00 AU, 39 Euro; released on the 15th.

I would like to add that I am happy to see the physical copy being released at the same time as the digital and hope they continue the trend in the future.

[DrBored]

Got the new White Dwarf today.

Codex:Crimson Slaughter - 72 page supplement for Codex:Chaos Space Marines detailing the Crimson Slaughter once the loyalist Crimson Sabres chapter. Contains rules for fielding them as an army in their own right including warlord traits, relics, etc.
Up for pre-order this weekend for $59.50 CAN, $49.40 US, 30 GBP, $83.00 AU, 39 Euro; released on the 15th.

I would like to add that I am happy to see the physical copy being released at the same time as the digital and hope they continue the trend in the future.

So wait.. is it a Codex or a Supplement?

[Horncastle]

So wait.. is it a Codex or a Supplement?

It's a supplement. I misread the entry in the release schedule. It's just called Crimson Slaughter the same way it was called Black Legion or Farsight Enclaves.

[daboarder]

Any poorly oixilated pictures for us to drool and speculate over?

[DrBored]

It's a supplement. I misread the entry in the release schedule. It's just called Crimson Slaughter the same way it was called Black Legion or Farsight Enclaves.

Oh ok. Well, that clears up a lot.

So, no retooling of much. We'll probably get some wargear and some IC shenanigans and... continue to despair. Awesome.

[Mr Mystery]

Oh ok. Well, that clears up a lot.

So, no retooling of much. We'll probably get some wargear and some IC shenanigans and... continue to despair. Awesome.

Dunno. It's possible they may have access to Imperial style wargear, being recent renegades?

=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ylPxJVHXsBo/TfvSVWNlFdI/AAAAAAAAAsc/z9VLrki37hg/s1600/ShamelessPlug.jpg

Anyways, on the subject of Supply and Demand between Traitor and Loyalist, I've started a discussion topic in the 40k Background board.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

looks like only the Helbrute is the only new plastic kit that week (as its the only highlighted one).

[YourSwordisMine]

As someone who is doing a Crimson Slaughter warband for his CSM army, I am kind of looking forward to an actual codex.

[Tomgar]

I've always wondered when GW will do with Chaos what it does with Loyalist marines. A core, "vanilla" dex like with Space Marines that allows you to play stuff like Black Legion and stuff like maybe Night Lords along with Astral Claws and Crimson Slaughter etc. Then beside that you give the more unique armies a unique book and units, a la Codex: Dark Angels and the like. There's so much potential for unique rules and units. Just as much as with loyalists, so why restrict it all to one, normal-sized dex?

[jonas the jedi]

If we insist on playing with toys I guess we should expect to be surrounded by children.

Too true. That is gonna be my keep calm mantra from now on.

[YourSwordisMine]

Ok, I've given this some more thought. I kind of wish they had done this earlier in the release cycle. Look at it this way:

You are a new player. You start off with arguably one of the best starter kits that is the Dark Vengeance set. There are two factions, one Dark Angels 5th Company, and the new (all of it is new to you) Crimson Slaughter Chaos Marines. Lets say you decide to go with the Crimson Slaughter as an army since your buddy likes the Dark Angels. You trade for his extra Chaos and buy a few extra kits to flesh out your burgeoning collection. After buying the Chaos Space Marines codex, you kind of at a loss what to do next because the Crimson Slaughter really don't appear again anywhere else. You are kind of dropped into CSM without much clue as to what or who the players are, or how to go about playing your Crimson Slaughter warband. Now, had the supplement come out sooner, the new player wont feel like the time and effort involved in learning about their chosen faction isn't wasted. They can play with the Actual named characters from the Crimson Slaughter. I think it adds more value to the whole experience of the Dark Vengeance set, instead of it being an in essence a throwaway product (not throwaway minis wise, the value there is insane).

I just hope now they add a supplement book for the Dark Angels 5th Company so that it completes the set.

[daboarder]

Well its a full codex, not the one we wanted and certainly not what was expected, but I guess there's not much to do but hold on and enjoy the ride,

[Charon]

Well its a full codex, not the one we wanted and certainly not what was expected, but I guess there's not much to do but hold on and enjoy the ride,

Its NOT a full codex. Its a supplement... Black Legion Sytyle most probably. New Warlord Traits, new Artifacts, maybe a new Psipower or two and fluff.

[daboarder]

does white dwarf ever refer to the supplements as a codex?

because this one does on the front page.

[YourSwordisMine]

This is the first I've seen that lists it as Codex Crimson Slaughter. Werent the supplements all?

"Iyanden: A Codex Supplement"
"Farsight Enclaves: A Codex Supplement"
"Black Legion: A Codex Supplement"

The only one I've seen lately has been Codex: Imperial Knights, and it has its own entry in the Armies section on the 40k GW page. If Crimson Slaughter get their own entry as well, then its a full codex. If it just appears under the Army Essentials like the other supplements then we'll know for sure which is which.

[Charon]

Dont know what they where named in the past... I go with the price tag and its the same for black Legion and crimson slaughter unlike the codex imperial knights which is a little more expensive.

[Katharon]

People hear a snippet, make a snap decision get angry, and people wonder why GW do not do open testing and have closed down the rumour mill quite significantly...

No, that's ignorant and flippant. Any company with the sack to make it knows it won't please everyone. GW just decided that it didn't want to face ANY criticism that it wasn't prepared for and cut off all ties -- dumb as **** of them to do, but they did it.

[firestorm]

Such is the effect of Chaos in 40k that any discussion of it causes fall out, and there is inevitable fall out from that fall out :p

Take these comments, typical reaction to Chaos players 'whining':

I can feel the whining from here.....


If we insist on playing with toys I guess we should expect to be surrounded by children.


just pointing out that it is idiotic to complain about getting new releases to play with.
Now, before people who don't play Chaos Marines are quick to fob off complaints about new releases, here's a scenario I'd like them to consider for a moment:

Imagine that what you really, REALLY want above all else is a holiday to, let's say, Cancun (as a randomly picked example). You've been wanting this for, say, 7 years now. And on a regular basis, you've been stating this fact quite clearly to your family/friends/significant other/whoever is the one to facilitate this.

Now, imagine that, on no less than 3 occasions to date, your family/friends/significant other/whoever is the one to facilitate the holiday has come to you and said 'Okay, I know you're really wanting a holiday - so I've booked as a trip to Anchorage/Montreal/Vermont/anyplace which is as far removed from where you're actually wanting to go on vacation as possible'! Yes, you'd be a bit disappointed, wouldn't you?

Then, you get wind that your family/friends/significant other/whoever is the one to facilitate the vacation are planning another trip - and you pick up suggestions that, yes this time they have finally LISTENED and PAID ATTENTION to what you ACTUALLY WANT, and are planning that vacation to Cancun!

But then - lo and behold - the new vacation is announced, and again, it's not Cancun, it's nowhere that's anything like Cancun, again it's somewhere that's the opposite to it - not warm and sunny, but cold and icy.

So if that was you, let down all those times before despite having made your express wishes very clear, you'd be forgiven for complaining about it, wouldn't you?


Quite obviously, this scenario relates to Chaos Marine players - what the overwhelming majority of us have been saying for the last few years is that we want rules to represent the Chaos Legions as they now exist in 40k, and we want them to not only play like they truly capture the feel of that, we want them to be effective in games (so we're not just reliant on Heldrake-Cultist spam anymore).

Now, there is NO WAY that the GW design team can say they don't know about this desire - I attended Games Day in 2011 and 2012, and spoke to Jervis, Mat Ward and Phil Kelly and stated this fact to them. *In fact I spoke to Phil Kelly when the current Chaos 'dex had just been announced, and we talked about representing Legions, and he pretty much said he had written it with players being able to field forces representing the Legions in mind (Sadly Phil, it didn't live up to your intentions...).

So it's not like GW doesn't GET what Chaos players are wanting for their army. It's just... I don't know if they're ignoring it, or have some misguided idea about what is better for Chaos Marines in 40k they're working towards.

Now, I should make it clear that, although I'm a Chaos Marine player, my army isn't a Legion one, so it's not like I'm wanting Legion rules for my army - but having played through two average and no better Chaos Codices since 2007, I can totally appreciate why the vast majority of Chaos players want these Legion rules.

At the same time, yay for a new Chaos model, but it's a shame it's for a unit which isn't as good as it could be... I'm waiting for the rumoured Plastic Obliterators with more anticipation than the Helbrute...

[Katharon]

We also need to all remember that Codex: Chaos Space Marines was the 1st sixth edition codex to be released...

[Dimitrios]

I'm glad that the CSM community get a few new toys to play with... the hellbrute is a wonderful model and it typifies the way that GW is taking the chaos range. HOWEVER, I truely wish that GW would make their mind up with their strategy for releasing new armies.

At first we had suppliments, then after 3 months they got twitchy and started SPAMMING Christmas data slates flooding the market. A few months later on and we are now seeing an explosion in new fully fledged Codex in lue of suppliments, all the while existing codex suppliments still do not have their hardback editions published. Make your minds up GW... this is highlighting the turbulent and skitish management that is plaguing our hobby of late. Pick a strategy, communicate it and then stick to it; it is good old fashioned change management.

GW cannot expect for people to keep up with their frantic swings in direction equally it makes them look unorganised and amateurish.

[bfmusashi]

No, that's ignorant and flippant. Any company with the sack to make it knows it won't please everyone. GW just decided that it didn't want to face ANY criticism that it wasn't prepared for and cut off all ties -- dumb as **** of them to do, but they did it.

And this is sagacious? Have you spent a lot of time in meetings with GW? Surely you aren't filtering snippets you gleaned off the internet through your own biased filter of how things should be and presenting it as fact. I mean, to belittle someone because they have access to the same limited information you do but came to a different conclusion would mean... holy crap Wolfshade was right! Open testing would only promote this nonsense as the internet devolves further into the quagmire of "I'm right because I said so and you're an idiot for disagreeing with me."

[jonsgot]

The problem we face is GW will fund the books that sell models. Creating a books witch make people's existing armies better and therefore not needing new stuff in their mind may not be a good idea.
I think this is wrong, I think I buy more for the armies I'm happy with not the ones that have been stuffed like a turkey at Thanksgiving. That said I don't have access to their sale data.

[Mr Mystery]

And this is sagacious? Have you spent a lot of time in meetings with GW? Surely you aren't filtering snippets you gleaned off the internet through your own biased filter of how things should be and presenting it as fact. I mean, to belittle someone because they have access to the same limited information you do but came to a different conclusion would mean... holy crap Wolfshade was right! Open testing would only promote this nonsense as the internet devolves further into the quagmire of "I'm right because I said so and you're an idiot for disagreeing with me."

Not to mention the usual 'Rock fine, Scissors overpowered, Sincerely, Paper' type feedback.

[SaveModifier]

Such is the effect of Chaos in 40k that any discussion of it causes fall out, and there is inevitable fall out from that fall out :p

Take these comments, typical reaction to Chaos players 'whining':





Now, before people who don't play Chaos Marines are quick to fob off complaints about new releases, here's a scenario I'd like them to consider for a moment:

Imagine that what you really, REALLY want above all else is a holiday to, let's say, Cancun (as a randomly picked example). You've been wanting this for, say, 7 years now. And on a regular basis, you've been stating this fact quite clearly to your family/friends/significant other/whoever is the one to facilitate this.

Now, imagine that, on no less than 3 occasions to date, your family/friends/significant other/whoever is the one to facilitate the holiday has come to you and said 'Okay, I know you're really wanting a holiday - so I've booked as a trip to Anchorage/Montreal/Vermont/anyplace which is as far removed from where you're actually wanting to go on vacation as possible'! Yes, you'd be a bit disappointed, wouldn't you?

Then, you get wind that your family/friends/significant other/whoever is the one to facilitate the vacation are planning another trip - and you pick up suggestions that, yes this time they have finally LISTENED and PAID ATTENTION to what you ACTUALLY WANT, and are planning that vacation to Cancun!

But then - lo and behold - the new vacation is announced, and again, it's not Cancun, it's nowhere that's anything like Cancun, again it's somewhere that's the opposite to it - not warm and sunny, but cold and icy.

So if that was you, let down all those times before despite having made your express wishes very clear, you'd be forgiven for complaining about it, wouldn't you?


Quite obviously, this scenario relates to Chaos Marine players - what the overwhelming majority of us have been saying for the last few years is that we want rules to represent the Chaos Legions as they now exist in 40k, and we want them to not only play like they truly capture the feel of that, we want them to be effective in games (so we're not just reliant on Heldrake-Cultist spam anymore).

Now, there is NO WAY that the GW design team can say they don't know about this desire - I attended Games Day in 2011 and 2012, and spoke to Jervis, Mat Ward and Phil Kelly and stated this fact to them. *In fact I spoke to Phil Kelly when the current Chaos 'dex had just been announced, and we talked about representing Legions, and he pretty much said he had written it with players being able to field forces representing the Legions in mind (Sadly Phil, it didn't live up to your intentions...).

So it's not like GW doesn't GET what Chaos players are wanting for their army. It's just... I don't know if they're ignoring it, or have some misguided idea about what is better for Chaos Marines in 40k they're working towards.

Now, I should make it clear that, although I'm a Chaos Marine player, my army isn't a Legion one, so it's not like I'm wanting Legion rules for my army - but having played through two average and no better Chaos Codices since 2007, I can totally appreciate why the vast majority of Chaos players want these Legion rules.

At the same time, yay for a new Chaos model, but it's a shame it's for a unit which isn't as good as it could be... I'm waiting for the rumoured Plastic Obliterators with more anticipation than the Helbrute...

This is a really ****ing terrible analogy

You're complaining that they way they've written the army, and the way its always played, its quite how you imagined it in your head, so GW are bad because of it?

It CAN represent the Legions as a whole warband, or one legion, or a renegade war band, or a mono god warband, with allies anything you want can be made, but you're complaining because the particular army you want to make and play isn't super powerful.

[firestorm]

This is a really ****ing terrible analogy

You're complaining that they way they've written the army, and the way its always played, its quite how you imagined it in your head, so GW are bad because of it?

It CAN represent the Legions as a whole warband, or one legion, or a renegade war band, or a mono god warband, with allies anything you want can be made, but you're complaining because the particular army you want to make and play isn't super powerful.
No, I think your understanding of this analogy is what's at fault here my friend :p

The issue is NOT about GW's testing process or how they develop the rules or how some armies/units get better rules than others; the issue is about NOT giving their customers (in this case, the vast majority of Chaos Marine players) what they actually want:

Rules which will adequately portray the Traitor Legions as they exist now in the 40k universe. Not just to make the codex 'better', but so that ANY of the Legions can be fielded in a way which 'feels' right, depending on whether it is World Eaters, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Thousand Sons, etc etc etc.

My point is that GW have known for several years now that this is what is wanted for Chaos Marines (as proven by the conversations with senior developers cited in my post above), but are still failing to provide product which satisfies this.

I suggest reading posts more carefully in future before you accuse someone of saying something they actually haven't; to whit, you'll note upon re-reading my post that I DON'T actually play ANY of the Legions. So I have no vested interest in making any one of them more powerful than any other army. Which kind of makes your last point a bit irrelevant...

Oh, and by the way, thanks for reminding me why I rarely post on forums like this ;)

[bfmusashi]

Is this analogy in defense of Chaos players, because it makes them look like stupid brats. In the story the person is in consensual relationships with people that do not get them the exact gift they want. Instead they get different gifts and this pisses them off. They continue through the relationship even though they think they're being ignored and the other person continues to devote resources in a misguided attempt to keep the first person happy. The first person thinks because these gifts are things they don't want that no one could want them, meaning the provider is flawed. Instead of walking away the recipient just talks about how crappy the provider is. When someone says they kind of like the things the provider is giving they are an apologist. This is worse than whining, it's being a hateful shrew.
I don't think chaos players are hateful shrews, I think they need a new hobby.

[Psyfer]

If we insist on playing with toys I guess we should expect to be surrounded by children.

Ouch...

Well played sir, well played. *golfer's clap*

[DrBored]

Is this analogy in defense of Chaos players, because it makes them look like stupid brats. In the story the person is in consensual relationships with people that do not get them the exact gift they want. Instead they get different gifts and this pisses them off. They continue through the relationship even though they think they're being ignored and the other person continues to devote resources in a misguided attempt to keep the first person happy. The first person thinks because these gifts are things they don't want that no one could want them, meaning the provider is flawed. Instead of walking away the recipient just talks about how crappy the provider is. When someone says they kind of like the things the provider is giving they are an apologist. This is worse than whining, it's being a hateful shrew.
I don't think chaos players are hateful shrews, I think they need a new hobby.

The analogy is a bit off, and I'm one of the loudest whiners of the bunch, at least here on BOLS.

There's really not a great analogy here.

The reason I whine so much, and it really is inexcusable, is because I fell in love with the lore of Chaos Marines. Not just the lore, but the look of the models, the aesthetic (and the new aesthetic like in the Dark Vengeance set too!), and the characters as well. I read the stories, I follow every rumor that pertains to Chaos like a starving falcon. I look for inspiration on how to convert Chaos models from all of GW's ranges, and even from miniatures well outside of the norm, all in my pursuit of the enjoyment of my favorite faction: Chaos Space Marines.

It started with Dawn of War. To have these raving maniac super soldiers take the field, summon daemons, rise in power through strength and strength alone, and freely wield corrupting magic.. it was too cool! I'm not some crazy death/metal-head or anything like that, I just like a good bad guy, and Warhammer 40k, it seemed, had a GREAT bad guy!

So, with a couple of friends, back in 2009, I started into the actual hobby of 40k. I bought some kits and some paint and got to work, and for nearly 4 years, I did nothing but collect models and paint them. I never touched a game! I had the Codex, and I enjoyed building lists and I guided my purchases by those lists, but I had no real idea of how to play beyond the basic mechanics of 4th edition at the time.

5th edition comes out, and that's when I really start playing. I had found a comic shop, I found a lot of great friends, and I had a good group of people to play the game. Some were more competitive then others. My Codex was doing fine, as long as I didn't spend points frivolously on things like Thousand Sons and Spawn. I tried my best to make my Noise Marines work, but even after getting a good grasp of the game, I just couldn't deny the fact that the Noise Marines were just not performers like the Plague Marines were. That was bittersweet. Yes, I had a unit that could perform much better, but I had a unit that I REALLY LIKED that I found myself using less and less because they weren't doing anything useful on the table.

5th edition continued... IG, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, all those powerhouse things.. then Necron, and by then I was getting a bit frustrated, because even a pair of Daemon Princes and a butt-load of Plague Marines were doing nothing for me! That's when things really got a bit bitter for me. I had taken a little foray into Dark Eldar, and that was good because it was fresh, but they weren't Chaos Marines. It wasn't the same.

Rumors for 6th start coming up, and I get excited. That means Chaos will definitely get a new codex! I knew it in my bones, there was no way GW was going to let their big bad guy languish with a 4th edition Codex when even Grey Knights and Dark Eldar had been updated!

I was right there at the front, hoping and wishing and praying for Legion-specific, or even just God-specific rules, something to finally let me field the Noise Marines that I loved so much! What if I could put a Blastmaster on a Predator, or have Sonic Blaster wielding Terminators? Or what if Chaos Marines could summon better daemons on the field?

And then it came out. And none of those things happened.

It was like Christmas came and went, and Santa didn't bring me anything but a new pair of knickers.

I tried! I did! Noise Marines, with their new 'Ignores Cover' rules really got a bump, and being able to take FNP? Great! But the points didn't really add up... and there were problems with the new models that we got (they were useless), and suddenly everyone was playing with nothing but Cultists and Heldrakes. Even Necron players were just allying with Chaos JUST to take a Heldrake! It was.. like before.. bittersweet. It was good to have a new Codex, to have some updated rules and to have some powerhouse units, even with some of the nerfs here and there, but I wasn't able to play the army that I wanted.

Yeah, the rebuttals came "Well, just paint them how you want and say they're whatever!" "Just counts-as!" "Just ally with so-and-so and convert that!"

But the heart of Chaos Space Marines was deflated. An Homage to 4th edition? It wasn't what we had been hoping and praying and SCREAMING for for years. I couldn't make a Slaanesh warband that felt like a Slaanesh warband. +1 Initiative wasn't an army worshiping Slaanesh, that's just a tiny, tacky add-on and most of the time it wasn't even worth it. What happened to the Cult Terminators? What happened to army-wide rules for Iron Warriors or Night Lords?

Then, the real stab to the heart came.

Space Marines got Chapter Tactics.

"BUT THAT'S WHAT WE WANTED!!" Screamed the Chaos players, but by then everyone had already had enough of our griping and moaning.

"Oh, you'll get supplements, I'm sure of it! Look at us, we already have 2 supplements on the way, and you have one." came the reply.

Now, what are we getting?

A supplement for an army nobody has heard of, nobody cares about, and that is probably just to sell more Dark Vengeance kits to make room for something else. Crimson Slaughter? Why couldn't you have made it any other Legion? Any other Legion would have been hailed as the beginning of the golden age for GW! Chaos fans everywhere would have rejoiced, peed their pants, voided their bowels, and upchucked their lunch with sheer joy! Nobody would even care if the rules were crap, they would celebrate because WE FINALLY HAVE A LEGION TO PLAY!

Nope. None of that.

So yes, we're jaded. But I still remember when Chaos was so interesting, so cool, the big bad that Space Marines really WERE afraid of. So, I hold onto a little sliver of hope that maybe, sometime down the line, when we're in 8th or 9th or 1023th edition, GW will finally give Chaos the respect it deserves.

[bfmusashi]

Thank you for writing a personal and well thought out reason for your frustration.

[DrBored]

Thank you for writing a personal and well thought out reason for your frustration.

Thank you for reading and understanding. :)

[Gleipnir]

I like the Chaos fluff, their aesthetics, and the variety. I find some of their units to be overpriced for what they get, but that said they get a ton of options in a core army. I am not so quick to poo poo a Crimson Slaughter Supplement Codex because it may very well give us a good glimpse into what a Chaos Space Marine warband specific codex may bring and it may be that Crimson Slaughter is one of those Khorne-centric warbands. The current release rate of Digital and hardback codex and codex supplements is great. Would I have preferred to have everything wrapped into one large everything Chaos Space Marine book, yup but thats not what GW is selling they are selling everything piecemeal these days.

Chaos has in less than 18 months gotten 2 core dexes, 2 supplemental dexes, 2 character Dataslates and 2 waves of model releases, a slew of digital fluff, along with being included as part of starter set, only the Space Marine poster boys have gotten more attention, I think a lot more patience should be expected.

[Eberk]

Whining and moaning aside ;)

I'm curious (picture please) as to whether it is a stand-alone Codex or a Codex supplement. Stand-alone codex would be strange (but I would welcome it) and Codex Supplement would be more likely (and I would welcome it)

The only thing I am a little sad about is the repackaging of the (very) old Chaos plastics. Thats means no resculpts of those sets are forthcoming. :(

[DrBored]

I like the Chaos fluff, their aesthetics, and the variety. I find some of their units to be overpriced for what they get, but that said they get a ton of options in a core army. I am not so quick to poo poo a Crimson Slaughter Supplement Codex because it may very well give us a good glimpse into what a Chaos Space Marine warband specific codex may bring and it may be that Crimson Slaughter is one of those Khorne-centric warbands. The current release rate of Digital and hardback codex and codex supplements is great. Would I have preferred to have everything wrapped into one large everything Chaos Space Marine book, yup but thats not what GW is selling they are selling everything piecemeal these days.

Chaos has in less than 18 months gotten 2 core dexes, 2 supplemental dexes, 2 character Dataslates and 2 waves of model releases, a slew of digital fluff, along with being included as part of starter set, only the Space Marine poster boys have gotten more attention, I think a lot more patience should be expected.

The trouble with the Chaos Space Marine side of all of that is much of it isn't the kind of attention we want.

If GW was updating these things in a direction that Chaos players want, then I would shut right up right now, but they aren't, they're supporting all the wrong sides of Chaos! Tiny no-name warbands aren't interesting, they don't make you feel like you're part of a big war. The Legions do!

[lattd]

I understand the frustration I remember the old 3.5 and legion rules, yes they just needed fine tuning and I do miss the options even though I have not played chaos. However to begrudge a new codex that you know nothing about because it's not the one you want is a tad silly. It may allow things people couldn't imagine such as demon units in the codex again and could still be allied to guard. Or it could be the voltw rules we heard about, remember they will have the chaos base rules but to represent them being newly turned they would need rules other than voltw. I'm not trying to be apologetic but atleast they are giving you something. I personally would love an expodite supplement/codex.

[DrBored]

I understand the frustration I remember the old 3.5 and legion rules, yes they just needed fine tuning and I do miss the options even though I have not played chaos. However to begrudge a new codex that you know nothing about because it's not the one you want is a tad silly. It may allow things people couldn't imagine such as demon units in the codex again and could still be allied to guard. Or it could be the voltw rules we heard about, remember they will have the chaos base rules but to represent them being newly turned they would need rules other than voltw. I'm not trying to be apologetic but atleast they are giving you something. I personally would love an expodite supplement/codex.

I really don't know what the internet has about this 'being apologetic' thing that's going on, so don't worry about that :P

No, you're right though. I am trying to be hopeful. If it's truly some semblance of a full Codex with it's own unique unit entries and the like, then that would be a good thing. New wargear and new point values are always welcome, and if the Helbrute has some varied rules that will give it more options, that'd be fantastic, because I do love the kits and I would love to be able to field them.

But, I'm ready for disappointment too. I'm not expecting much. I think, even though it says 'Codex', it will be a supplement in disguise, and we all saw how well Black Legion did for us. Crimson Slaughter seems generic, just like Black Legion.

So, we'll see.

[Eberk]

The trouble with the Chaos Space Marine side of all of that is much of it isn't the kind of attention we want.
But perhaps that's the attention GW wants for Chaos Marines, that GW thinks will sell the most models/kits. (and don't say that GW would sell more models if Legions were reintroduced because nobody, not even GW itself, knows that for sure... It could be just a -very vocal- minority who would buy extra models)

Personally I will buy any Codex supplement whether it is Crimson Slaughter or, let's say, Emperors Children. Would I buy more models ? Nope, I'm on a tight budget, I would buy the same amount as I do now.

[DarkLink]

I really don't know what the internet has about this 'being apologetic' thing that's going on, so don't worry about that :P


Because there are some places where even whispering something that might be construed as criticism of GW will get you flamed.

[Gleipnir]

The trouble with the Chaos Space Marine side of all of that is much of it isn't the kind of attention we want.

If GW was updating these things in a direction that Chaos players want, then I would shut right up right now, but they aren't, they're supporting all the wrong sides of Chaos! Tiny no-name warbands aren't interesting, they don't make you feel like you're part of a big war. The Legions do!

I get it, I felt the same way about Space Marine chapters getting company specific Codex Supplements initially, my point is if the rules for a warband allow you to create a fluffy rule wise legion list why complain? Also last I looked Forgeworld is putting out alot of Traitor Legion 30K stuff for those that want to play with legions, rather than chapters/warbands.

That said rules for Cult Terminators and models to accompany them would be awesome, but I just don't see it happening anytime soon outside of 30K

[DrBored]

Because there are some places where even whispering something that might be construed as criticism of GW will get you flamed.

Wow, seriously? I mean, I guess those places exist everywhere (if you criticize the US Govt, if you criticize British Tea Time, if you criticize how your neighbor keeps letting his dog crap on your lawn), but I haven't found that here on BOLS :P

Anyway, to everyone else's points, you're probably right, and I did say right up front, I'm a vocal whiner and there's no excuse. I should grow up and move on.

But dangit, I want my Codex: Slaanesh without getting stomped every time I try to put a Sonic Blaster on the table! It feels like an uphill battle with the way GW is taking Chaos. If that's the way they want it, then us disenchanted Chaos Marine players will indeed find another game to play. In my mind, they're doing a disservice to their customers by ignoring us.

Because if they can just ignore us, they can ignore anyone, and next it'll be your great awesome Codex that gets hit by the nerf bat and you'll never recover.

And then you'll get to come hang out with us former Chaos Marine and Squat players.

[Badtucker]

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Images/Games-Workshop-Digital/2014/march/4th-march-blog/preview.png
"Make sure you check out our website this weekend, we have another exciting new title on the way."
Thanks for reading!

- Eddie, Knight World Peasant

Seen this from the BL page ? That my friends is a chaos marine.... form something coming this weekend.

[Bigred]

Because there are some places where even whispering something that might be construed as criticism of GW will get you flamed.

We certainly try to walk the line here at BoLS.

When GW does something good (like the Knight model) we congratulate them.
When GW does something lame (like the Dark Elf Witch prices) we call them on it.

I thought it was funny that on the frontpage there are two competing camps of commenters - one says BoLS are GW Apologists; the other that we are GW Haters...

I'm pretty happy with that.

[Wildeybeast]

Shock newsflash: 'BoLS admits to being mindless drones who just regurgitate the latest internet Zeitgeist with no opinion of their own'. :D

[Mr Mystery]

BoLS..... The BBC of the Wargames world.

By being as bipartisan as it is, the haters claim it to be fanboi, and the fanboi's claim it to be hate.

[Eldar_Atog]

But dangit, I want my Codex: Slaanesh without getting stomped every time I try to put a Sonic Blaster on the table! It feels like an uphill battle with the way GW is taking Chaos. If that's the way they want it, then us disenchanted Chaos Marine players will indeed find another game to play. In my mind, they're doing a disservice to their customers by ignoring us.


Know how you feel. I had been wanting to paint a Thousand sons warband for years and I finally started last year. I have made pretty good progress with the painting but I always lose interest after I play a game with them. It's the same story every time... I get a cpl more units or vehicle painted and decide that maybe I'm ready to play another game. The game ends in a total rout and I lose interest in painting the army for 2-3 months.

I guess I could build the army that just used the most efficient stuff but that's not the army I wanted to build. I wanted an army that was nothing but dust and ashes that was led by sorcerors.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Crimson Slaughter - Red and Brass Chaos Marines who are marked by Khorne.

It really does seem like they could've 180º'd the reaction by switching out the title and fluff for World Eaters - surely the thought must've occurred for them. Perhaps they're saving the World Eaters for something bigger?

Still, the choice seems odd, since in the "Dark Vengeance" novella, the pack-in Chaos Lord, Helbrute, and probably others, were killed.

[DarkLink]

Wow, seriously? I mean, I guess those places exist everywhere (if you criticize the US Govt, if you criticize British Tea Time, if you criticize how your neighbor keeps letting his dog crap on your lawn), but I haven't found that here on BOLS :P


Oh, there are some posters here who talk down to anything and anyone that doesn't meet their narrow view of what the game should be. Even some of the regulars who are otherwise cool will talk crap the second you say something about, say, PP writing higher quality rules than GW, or anything along those lines.

[DrLove42]

Possessed as troops? Wooooo. Now if they can keep VotLW I can make a nice fluffy Word Bearer Gal Vorbak list....

[Agramar]

But,this pic is not the same showed yesterday O_o

[DrBored]

But,this pic is not the same showed yesterday O_o

Yes, but remember, that was the Black Library teasing that picture, not GW.

Well, it's a supplement.

Here's hoping for better Possessed rules, because just making them troops doesn't really make them viable.

Though if they follow Slaanesh and get an Icon of Excess and have FNP, then they can be pretty resilient with a 3+/5++ with FNP.

But they're still T4.

They have no ranged weapons.

Their rules are random.

And Chaos doesn't have drop pods, Stormravens, or Land Raiders with a transport capacity of anything more than 10.

[Agramar]

7666
Attack force miniatures confirmed
http://descansodelescriba.blogspot.com/2014/03/confirmado-por-filtracion-el-contenido.html

[DrBored]

7666
Attack force miniatures confirmed
http://descansodelescriba.blogspot.com/2014/03/confirmado-por-filtracion-el-contenido.html

The description is cute. As if we didn't know what's in the 6+ year-old kits for Terminators and Chaos Marines.

[Haighus]

And Chaos doesn't have drop pods, Stormravens, or Land Raiders with a transport capacity of anything more than 10.
Unless you are using FW, at which point they can use Spartans and Storm Eagles, both with at least a transport capacity of 20, and Dreadclaw drop pods :) FW provide a lot more options for Chaos, pity that FW is (usually) more expensive and less widely accepted.

[DrBored]

Unless you are using FW, at which point they can use Spartans and Storm Eagles, both with at least a transport capacity of 20, and Dreadclaw drop pods :) FW provide a lot more options for Chaos, pity that FW is (usually) more expensive and less widely accepted.

You said it right there.

"Well, you do have THESE shiny new toys! But nobody will play with you if you bring them."

Is pretty much what I hear whenever someone suggests FW products in the current scene.

Hopefully FW will be tied more closely to GW, and we might see those units on tourney tables more and more, but right now, that's not much of an answer.

[bfmusashi]

I... I'd play with you.

[DrBored]

I... I'd play with you.

Come to Florida, we don't have winter but we do have beaches!

[Julian]

Awesome can't wait for chaos release as they are my favourite army and totally cant wait for new hellbrute.
For the dark gods!

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I... I'd play with you.

You almost sound Tsundere.

[DrBored]

You almost sound Tsundere.

"It's not like I'm going to enjoy it or anything."

[Charon]

Wow! Innovation!

Whats next? Codex: Silver Guards featuring Mutilators as fast attack choice?

[jonsgot]

Is there anything new in this set?
http://40kwarzone.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/csm-attack-force-leak.html

[DarkLink]

Everything except what CSM players actually want or ask for.

[daboarder]

Unless you are using FW, at which point they can use Spartans and Storm Eagles, both with at least a transport capacity of 20, and Dreadclaw drop pods :) FW provide a lot more options for Chaos, pity that FW is (usually) more expensive and less widely accepted.

The chaos spartan is lacking in potms for a 10pt reduction WOOOOOO YEAH! with that loadout.....

And dreadclaws...youd be better off walking

[daboarder]

Is there anything new in this set?
http://40kwarzone.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/csm-attack-force-leak.html
No

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

"It's not like I'm going to enjoy it or anything."

B-b-baka! hmmph!

[bfmusashi]

Everything except what CSM players actually want or ask for.

Should have rolled better on the chart. Should also be thankful they didn't end up like old torso face.

[Katharon]

And this is sagacious? Have you spent a lot of time in meetings with GW? Surely you aren't filtering snippets you gleaned off the internet through your own biased filter of how things should be and presenting it as fact. I mean, to belittle someone because they have access to the same limited information you do but came to a different conclusion would mean... holy crap Wolfshade was right! Open testing would only promote this nonsense as the internet devolves further into the quagmire of "I'm right because I said so and you're an idiot for disagreeing with me."

I am and was referring entirely to GW in my response to Wolfshades comments. I actually have spoken to people like Rick Priestly and the Perry Twins, so I know a bit about how crappy the internal workings of GW has gotten over the years. GW, a public company, decided to cut off several of its main avenues for contact with its customer base outside of mediums which it directly controlled (email and phone calls). That sort of action by any company in this day and age, where mass communication via the internet and the exchange of ideas, would be considered idiotic to say the least. If I were at GW and had to listen to all the hate-posts and messages, I'd laugh! Why? Because they're giving me feedback and I can either act on it or ignore it. But by cutting off that avenue of approach, I become ignorant and have to rely on less reliable and indirect ways to gauge the reaction of my customer base to my company's products as a whole. Getting a few emails here or there that have differing opinions isn't the way you collate and analyze customer feedback.

As for Open Testing, I think that that would be a premature idea. As you and others have stated, we've become predisposed towards bashing *anything* that GW does (due to their previous actions and the fact that they have been so dismissive of their customers) and Open Testing would make things way too open-ended. Individuals would want one things to have this stat line, etc. However I could totally see inviting some gamers from the local area into the Warhammer World, have them sign legal papers to keep their traps shut, and then have a "closed beta". Let regular gamers rip into something new and see what they do with it. Then the game devs can look at it again, see where it might be abused too much and switch a few things up to better balance a codex or rule set before a general release.

I'm actually being quite sagacious, from a certain point of view. [/Obi-Wan]

[DarkLink]

GW, being a corporation, is also required to put out public financial statements, where they go over a lot of details of how their business is running. Looking over it, there's a lot of weird stuff going on in there. They tell you a lot of "this is how much we sold, how many units we moved, how many stores we opened/closed, etc", and some of it just doesn't make sense. They keep track of how much products each independent store sells, but they "don't use it in future planning". Which is odd, because in the USA, the vast majority of product is moved through independent stores. Not a big deal normally, except that in the USA, they're randomly opening and closing 30-40 GW stores every year because they either can't figure out a good location, or the independent retailers are stealing their own business. That sounds very much like a case of the left hand not talking to the right, and it's probably millions of dollars on the line. And that's just one oddity.

So, if you do a little research, yes, there is some insight into GW's practices to be found.

[YourSwordisMine]

from http://theflyingpredator.blogspot.com/2014/03/helbrutes-incoming.html

7673767476757676

That definitely looks like a sexy kit

[daboarder]

I prefer mine,

BUT, that is a nice kit, and if I didn't already have mine then I'd be looking at picking up a few.


And then did the Crimson Slaughter enter the Eye
In fear of the Inquisition at their heels.
‘No!’ said the horned red one. ‘None shall enter unto my halls!’
‘Please, oh mighty Khorne!’ said the former Chapter master.
‘We run not from our enemies but to your embrace.’
‘Then a toll is asked, before you can pass.’
‘Name it, oh murderous one.’
‘Your Thunder Hammers. Your Storm Shields. Your Cyclones.’
‘These are the cowards weapons, and none that walk my path will have them’
‘It is done, my lord Khorne’
And Khorne was satisfied.

But again the Crimson Slaughter were barred.
‘No!’ said the giant green one. ‘None shall enter unto my halls!’
‘Please, oh mighty Nurgle!’ said the former Chapter master.
‘We run not from our enemies but to your embrace.’
‘Then a toll is asked, before you can pass.’
‘Name it, oh gluttonous one.’
‘Your Attack Bikes. Your Land Raider Variants.’
‘These are weakling weapons, and none that walk my path will have them’
‘It is done, my lord Nurgle’
And Nurgle was satisfied.

But again the Crimson Slaughter were once again barred.
‘No!’ said the lithe purple one. ‘None shall enter unto my halls!’
‘Please, oh mighty Slaanesh!’ said the former Chapter master.
‘We run not from our enemies but to your embrace.’
‘Then a toll is asked, before you can pass.’
‘Name it, oh lascivious one.’
‘Your Razorbacks. Your Thunderfire Cannons. You Whirlwinds.’
‘These are pathetic weapons, and none that walk my path will have them’
‘It is done, my lord Slaanesh’
And Slaanesh was satisfied.

But the Crimson Slaughter were barred for a final time.
‘No!’ said the winged blue one. ‘None shall enter unto my halls!’
‘Please, oh mighty Tzeentch!’ said the former Chapter master.
‘We run not from our enemies but to your embrace.’
‘Then a toll is asked, before you can pass.’
‘Name it, oh wise one.’
‘You Storm Ravens. Your Storm Talons. Your Land Speeders.’
‘Only that which has wings may soar, and fly along my path’
‘It is done, my lord Tzeentch’
And Tzeentch was satisfied.

With heavy heart the Crimson Slaughter left their weapons of war behind.
Yet unto the Crimson Slaughter did the Warp deliver a bounty.
Daemon Engines, in seemingly unlimited quantities.
And Possessed Marines in abundance… for some reason…
Their Terminators smiled at their new Reaper Autocannons
And their Havocs did cavort with their new Autocannons.
They were real Traitor Marines at last.

– Excerpt from ‘Sable & Slaughter’, by Arch-Heretic Jervisius Johnsonius


the problem with renegades in a nutshell

[MajorWesJanson]

Everything except what CSM players actually want or ask for.

I'm pretty sure I have recalled Chaos players asking for a plastic dreadnought for near a decade.

[White Tiger88]

I'm pretty sure I have recalled Chaos players asking for a plastic dreadnought for near a decade.

The plastic chosen are even better.........


Mind you IF the dreadnought was usable it would be cool......

[daboarder]

I'm pretty sure I have recalled Chaos players asking for a plastic dreadnought for near a decade.

Yup, but apparently we're spoiled and entitled.....because ya know, waiting 10+ years for a standard unit is so reasonable.

PS we haven't had a non FW dread kit at all for about 3-4 years

[White Tiger88]

Yup, but apparently we're spoiled and entitled.....because ya know, waiting 10+ years for a standard unit is so reasonable.

PS we haven't had a non FW dread kit at all for about 3-4 years

You forgot the other "great" kits we have!

-Greater demons
-All are troops\elites\fast attacks\...oh god everything

[daboarder]

I love the cult unit plastics, really puts those loyalist veteran kits to shame, all the pieces....

[lattd]

Am I the only one who sees the irony of a force that is in a timeless zone, is suffering from models not being updated?

[newtjedi]

Very good.

[Katharon]

So, if you do a little research, yes, there is some insight into GW's practices to be found.

You might find insight into how they operate, but whether that model can be considered sane or accurate to the market the company operates in is a totally different question. But yeah, I appreciate what you've said Dark Link and I agree with you that on the whole their US strategy seems rather strange -- but I'm sure they've got it worked out somehow; at least long enough for the next five to ten years...we hope.

[White Tiger88]

Am I the only one who sees the irony of a force that is in a timeless zone, is suffering from models not being updated?

Not sure if i should laugh or die a little inside....;)

[SaveModifier]

The plastic chosen are even better.........


Mind you IF the dreadnought was usable it would be cool......

They are as useable as Loyalist Dreadnoughts

[Pullo]

They are as useable as Loyalist Dreadnoughts

They may not be what they used to be but all these pictures are making me long for a relaunch of the basic SM Dread. Would love to see that kit have all the ranged options included. As a long term SM collector/player the more dreads I have the happier, Ironclad in a pod has use. It unnerves opponents to see an AV 13 melee monster in their board half so quick, which often distracts them to allow other forces to get up the board.

[SaveModifier]

Oh don't get me wrong, I love Dreads! and they do have their uses, i'd like to see them bumped a bit though, maybe AV13 for both and give an Ironclad more HP?

[Mr Mystery]

Imperial and Chaos Dreadnoughts both need a bit of a bump if you ask me.

Way back in 2nd Ed, they had slightly better versions of the standard weapons. Lascannons which could modify where they hit on a vehicle, HB and AC ignored their first Jam result each turn, Multi-Melta could melta or heavy flamer. Nothing exactly game breaking, but reason enough to want a Dread over a different weapons delivery platform (oh, and sustained fire Missile Launchers were fun too!).

Bit of that back, thankyouplease :)

[SaveModifier]

And their front armour was pretty handy, although a little more complicated, I liked the way 2nd ed armour penetration worked, and the save system and cover giving a To Hit modifier, because it makes a damanging hit that much more difficult, conceptually seems more sensible than the cover save thing. Close combat was actually the worst thing in the world though

[Charon]

There was a whole lot of things I liked in 2nd. save modifiers, hit modifiers, weapon profile, damage tables, movement, PSI (omg how I always hoped for the fantasy style PSI phase to come back)...
Combat was not good but not terrible either. I actually liked the emphasis on WS instead of pure A and parry was also a good rule. But it was slow as f.uck and handling 20 Hormagaunts was a real pain.
Also some vehicle rules (especially small vehicles like bikes and jetbikes) where pretty time consumig... "So... I damage this jetbike... it goes off in a random direction and.... collides with another Jetbike... I pentetrate the armor and it explodes damaging 2 more jetbikes. The first jetbike is out of coontrol and collides with the Falcon over there, the other one crashes....

[DrBored]

I'm quite happy that the Chaos Dread is finally getting a kit. The trouble isn't that it's getting a kit, the trouble is that it's rules suck. We don't have Drop Pods or Ironclad versions of our Dread, so the only option is to run it up the table and let it get shot up. It's price, points wise, is fairly reasonable, but it competes in the Elite section with things that are much more valuable. Again, we don't have a way to get it in Elites AND Heavy like Space Marines.

So let's just hit this again, for good measure.

1. We have new kits that look fantastic! (Warp Talons, Mutilators, Helbrute)
2. We have new kits that have terribad rules. (Warp Talons, Mutilators, Helbrute)

If GW wanted our money, wouldn't they make those units really really good so we'd buy a lot of them, only for then to nerf them in the next edition like they do to other armies?

You see, with Chaos, we don't get that moment in the sun (except for the Heldrake), we just start off half-cocked and go down from there.

Again. Warp Talons, Mutilators.

[SaveModifier]

I'm quite happy that the Chaos Dread is finally getting a kit. The trouble isn't that it's getting a kit, the trouble is that it's rules suck. We don't have Drop Pods or Ironclad versions of our Dread, so the only option is to run it up the table and let it get shot up. It's price, points wise, is fairly reasonable, but it competes in the Elite section with things that are much more valuable. Again, we don't have a way to get it in Elites AND Heavy like Space Marines.

So let's just hit this again, for good measure.

1. We have new kits that look fantastic! (Warp Talons, Mutilators, Helbrute)
2. We have new kits that have terribad rules. (Warp Talons, Mutilators, Helbrute)

If GW wanted our money, wouldn't they make those units really really good so we'd buy a lot of them, only for then to nerf them in the next edition like they do to other armies?

You see, with Chaos, we don't get that moment in the sun (except for the Heldrake), we just start off half-cocked and go down from there.

Again. Warp Talons, Mutilators.

If they gave those units over powered rules, people would scream about GW trying to unbalance the game to make sales, they can't win which is why they stopped interacting, because the community can be quite toxic.

People aren't using loyalist dreads either, the odd person might take an Iron clad, but there are much better HS options (grav cannon centurions for example) and Elites, forget about it, Dreads don't get a look in, they suffer from the same issue that all walkers do in this edition, as things getting bigger and more impressive, they no longer have a niche.

They've written the rules, they're happy with them, the majority of their customers are happy with them, a vocal minority on the internet (seriously, its like 8 or 9 posters going on all the forums and comment sections) aren't happy because the army they want the one they think portrays the Legions, isn't as powerful as they want it to be.

I'll say again, using the chaos codex, you can write a list to represent any of the Traitor legions, you can ally in daemons for them or traitor guard, you can do anything you want to represent the fluff, it just won't be overpowered compared to Eldar.

[Charon]

ff, it just won't be overpowered compared to Eldar.

...and will most probably get tabled in round 1 or 2.
There is a HUGE gap between overpowered and not even remotely valid. Thats two extremes nobody (or better just a minority) really wants. But thats what we get. Either black or white... no grey.

Also your statement about the vocal minority is as wrong as every "whiners" statement about "everybody is unhappy". YOU have no numbers. Not even GW has any numbers about how much they COULD sell if they try to please older gamers too. NOBODY in my 3 gaming circles (friends, club and store) is happy with the rules. Sure they often disagree what exactly has to be changed but you will nearly ALWAYS hear statements like "3 heldrakes? Nah I guess I play someone else." "Can you try just one f.ucking game without your Jetseer Council?" "Yeah that 6 Valkyries are totally fine against my SOB.. lets just say you won" "That random warp table is soo cool.... 2 victory points without even having a chance to do something about."
So please... dont pretend EVERYTHING is always shiny and nobody except a few weirdos ever complain...

[DrBored]

I'll say again, using the chaos codex, you can write a list to represent any of the Traitor legions, you can ally in daemons for them or traitor guard, you can do anything you want to represent the fluff, it just won't be overpowered compared to Eldar.

Please do this. Please. Write up a list. Thousand Sons, Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children, Night Lords. Write up a list that is effective and doesn't punish you for taking the units that you really want to take.

Once you have that list, go play it. Play it against all sorts of gamers, competitive and super-mega-fluffy-casual. Play that list against noobs and experienced vets, and see if you can make it actually *reward* you for taking what you want to take, if not in winning its points back, then at least in being a unit that is fun to play with.

The tell us about it. Please tell us all about it so that all us 9 or 900 Chaos players can stop griping and moaning about our Codex.

I call out anyone to do this. If you can lay down a god-devoted list that does well and feels rewarding to play, write it up, write up the battle reports, show us that we're SOOOO wrong in our whining and complaining.

I'm a reasonable man, I will change my opinion if given proof to the contrary, but in my 4 years of Chaos Marines, I have tried every combination I could conceive of and played against all sorts of players, and end up rather empty handed and discouraged, even when I win! Because that winning list was 3 Heldrakes, 3 Oblit squads, and a bunch of Cultists to fill in the rest. Is that a list that matches any legion or warband in existence? I'm pretty sure it isn't.

So please, let us know what you find. I would love to love the way GW is treating Chaos.

[Katharon]

Considering the new model and the fact that CSM needed some new spice, I'd totally have been happy to see them make the Helbrute (not even a dreadnought anymore) into a monsterous creature.


Homebrew Helbrute

Base Point Cost: 150 pts

WS 4 BS 4 S6 T6 W4 I4 A3 Ld 9 3+/5++

USR: Monsterous Creature, Fearless, Daemon, Crazed

Crazed: Each time a Helbrute loses a wound but isn't killed, place a crazed marker by the model. At the start of each of your Movement phases, roll a D3 on the table below if the Helbrute has one or more crazed markers next to it. Roll for each crazed marker the Helbrute has, treating each as a separate outcome to the table below.

D3 Crazed Result

1. Fire Frenzy - The Helbrute cannot move until the next turn. If unengaged, it must fire all of its weapons twice this Shooting Phase. If possible, the target must be the unit that caused one or more wounds on the Helbrute in the previous turn; if not, the target must be the nearest enemy unit.

2. Rising Fury - The Helbrute is allowed to make one "It Will Not Die" roll, but does not retain that USR beyond this one turn use. The Helbrute also gains the Rage special rule for the remainder of the game.

3. Blood Rage - The Helbrute gains the Rage and Furious Charge special rules and may roll an additional D6" in the movement phase. If, during the next shooting phase, the Helbrute is not within maximum charge range of any enemy units, it must Run as far as possible towards an enemy unit. If that is not possible for any reason, it may fire its weapons as normal.


Wargear: Multi-melta, Power Fist

Options:

May replace its multi-melta with one of the following:
- Additional Power Fist............................free
- Twin-linked heavy bolter.......................5 pts
- Reaper autocannon..............................5 pts
- Plasma Cannon....................................10 pts
- Twin-linked Lascannon..........................20 pts
- Twin-linked Sonic Blaster (if given the Mark of Slaanesh)......15 pts

May upgrade up to two powerfists or one Power Scourge to incorporate a single:
- Combi-bolter.......................................5 pts each
- Heavy flamer.......................................15 pts each

May replace any power fist with one of the following:
- Power Scourge.....................................30 pts each
- Thunder Hammer...................................10 pts each

May replace one power fist with a missile launcher (with frag and krak missiles).......10 pts

May purchase one of the following Marks of Chaos:
- Mark of Khorne....................................30 pts
- Mark of Nurgle.....................................30 pts
- Mark of Tzeentch.................................40 pts
- Mark of Slaanesh..................................25 pts

[DrBored]

Hmm, not a bad Homebrew Helbrute, but we still have the whole Crazed rule which really isn't that appealing, even if the thing is a MC. T6 with 4 wounds seems pretty nice though, and that's fair enough...

If you could go a step further and upgrade it with the 10 point roll on the boon chart, that might help too.

I do really like that it can take marks and a Sonic Blaster though! Perhaps if it also got Inferno Bolts for the Heavy Bolter if with Mark of Tzeentch, that'd be a nice little touch.

[Eldar_Atog]

If they gave those units over powered rules, people would scream about GW trying to unbalance the game to make sales, they can't win which is why they stopped interacting, because the community can be quite toxic.


No, GW stopped interacting and then the community turned toxic. Which is what happens when you start ignoring a person.

And the community is only going to keep de-generating until GW decides to stop ignoring the issue. A good community organizer could turn a lot of this around. Organize events, deal with major customer pain points (FAQ), turning the environment into a positive atmosphere.

It's not about doing everything that the customers demand. It's about seeing the major currents in the community and taking action to reduce the negative currents. A good example of this would be the current chaos codex. If the community seems to love the old 3.5 book and hates the 4th edition book, which book should you use to design the next codex? They could be in the writer's ear talking about trying to capture the feel of the 3.5 codex while making sure it's power level stays even with the other armies.

[DarkLink]

It's also a little overpriced, if it comes with just a multimelta.

Just make Crazed a choice. You can choose between Fleet/Rage, Double Shots, or IWND.

[Slinkyskink]

Liking the helbrute homebrew fix. Nice to see some proactive solutions. If Darklink's points were regarding the proposed tweaks...I agree. :-) choosing your helbrute's style of rampage is a good way to make a more effective use of it's load out.

[DrBored]

No, GW stopped interacting and then the community turned toxic. Which is what happens when you start ignoring a person.

And the community is only going to keep de-generating until GW decides to stop ignoring the issue. A good community organizer could turn a lot of this around. Organize events, deal with major customer pain points (FAQ), turning the environment into a positive atmosphere.

It's not about doing everything that the customers demand. It's about seeing the major currents in the community and taking action to reduce the negative currents. A good example of this would be the current chaos codex. If the community seems to love the old 3.5 book and hates the 4th edition book, which book should you use to design the next codex? They could be in the writer's ear talking about trying to capture the feel of the 3.5 codex while making sure it's power level stays even with the other armies.

You're absolutely right.

If GW could hire a competent PR rep or community organizer or something, that person could do A LOT when it comes to quelling the rage within us all.

They probably wouldn't be able to answer questions about pricing (which is probably why GW just doesn't bother, since they figure a PR rep would just be bombarded with complaints about price increases) but if they could just EXPLAIN why GW is going in this direction, or make little hints of what's down the pipe, instead of keeping us totally in the dark. A PR rep could come out and say 'Don't worry Chaos Marine folks! You're getting the Helbrute and here's why!', that would go a long way, because then we'd at least have an idea of what GW is thinking.

[Slinkyskink]

You're absolutely right.

If GW could hire a competent PR rep or community organizer or something, that person could do A LOT when it comes to quelling the rage within us all.

They probably wouldn't be able to answer questions about pricing (which is probably why GW just doesn't bother, since they figure a PR rep would just be bombarded with complaints about price increases) but if they could just EXPLAIN why GW is going in this direction, or make little hints of what's down the pipe, instead of keeping us totally in the dark. A PR rep could come out and say 'Don't worry Chaos Marine folks! You're getting the Helbrute and here's why!', that would go a long way, because then we'd at least have an idea of what GW is thinking.

I'm usually a glass half-full kinda guy.... But the silence from GW is pretty damning.

[Charon]

You're absolutely right.

If GW could hire a competent PR rep or community organizer or something, that person could do A LOT when it comes to quelling the rage within us all.

They probably wouldn't be able to answer questions about pricing (which is probably why GW just doesn't bother, since they figure a PR rep would just be bombarded with complaints about price increases) but if they could just EXPLAIN why GW is going in this direction, or make little hints of what's down the pipe, instead of keeping us totally in the dark. A PR rep could come out and say 'Don't worry Chaos Marine folks! You're getting the Helbrute and here's why!', that would go a long way, because then we'd at least have an idea of what GW is thinking.

Thats pretty much why every video game has community reps. They may not be allowed (or can) answer all questions, but at LEAST they can tell you "We heard your concerns and we will discuss this stuff" or even "sorry our data implicates that actually most ppl like this unit". Also a single "ok guys our superheavies are not quite selling as we expected. What could we do to make these pretty models more appealing to you" would be like a the holy grail of customer interaction. Sadly they chose to keep eyes, ears and mouth shut.

[Katharon]

You're absolutely right.

If GW could hire a competent PR rep or community organizer or something, that person could do A LOT when it comes to quelling the rage within us all.

They probably wouldn't be able to answer questions about pricing (which is probably why GW just doesn't bother, since they figure a PR rep would just be bombarded with complaints about price increases) but if they could just EXPLAIN why GW is going in this direction, or make little hints of what's down the pipe, instead of keeping us totally in the dark. A PR rep could come out and say 'Don't worry Chaos Marine folks! You're getting the Helbrute and here's why!', that would go a long way, because then we'd at least have an idea of what GW is thinking.


Pretty much what I've been saying. It's a public company that has a very social game as its product -- and yet it doesn't make an effort to effectively communicate with us beyond email blurps? *sigh*


It's also a little overpriced, if it comes with just a multimelta.

Just make Crazed a choice. You can choose between Fleet/Rage, Double Shots, or IWND.

Except that with the rules written as I have them for the Crazed, if you lose two wounds and get two Crazed markers -- you then get to roll twice on the chart. I'm thinking it might even let you fire more shots for choice 1 and potentially roll a second IWND for 2. I'll need to wrangle it a little.

The price is so high because of the fact that I gave it a Daemon Invul. Otherwise, the price would be lower.

[daboarder]

Personally I'd love to see the Pts cost of the hellbrute dropped to account for the "crazed rules" and an additional option to turn it into say an "infernal engine" which for an appropriate cost gave it access to the daemon engine suite of rules. so, IWND, Daemon Forged and Daemon. Would be a good "mirror" for the loyalists access to Venerables and would properly reflect what happens to a dreadnought soaked in the warp.

As to dreadnoughts as a whole, I think both the loyalist and Chaos version need their weapons loadouts expanded to change them from just "gun carriages" to "relics" give them access toe the old heresy style weaponry such as say, Grav cannons, Conversion beamers, Volkite something or others. And daemonic equivalents such as the "Soulburner petard etc" Don't make these parable optiosn and suddenly there could be a reason to take a dread, access to exotic weaponry thats not man portable but is to sacred to stick on a tank.

[Kawauso]

Those Helbrute rules are a neat idea but...
Shouldn't it be a 2+ save if you're making it an MC?
Terminators wear tactical -dreadnought- armour, after all.

Anyway, the new model is...really nice. I'm thinking down the line I'll be adding a bigger Oracles of Change component to my Thousand Sons army (I just can't see the 'mutated' chaos look with 1K Sons).

[DarkLink]

Except that with the rules written as I have them for the Crazed, if you lose two wounds and get two Crazed markers -- you then get to roll twice on the chart. I'm thinking it might even let you fire more shots for choice 1 and potentially roll a second IWND for 2. I'll need to wrangle it a little.

The price is so high because of the fact that I gave it a Daemon Invul. Otherwise, the price would be lower.

Ah, I missed the roll thing. Forgot they aren't always Crazed like they were in the last book. But even with the 5++, you're still not hard to kill and don't put out much firepower.

[Grabula]

No, GW stopped interacting and then the community turned toxic. Which is what happens when you start ignoring a person.

And the community is only going to keep de-generating until GW decides to stop ignoring the issue. .


Garbage, garbage and more garbage. The GW community online is as toxic as it comes. No matter what you guys and girls get it's not enough. Please allow me to explain.

A few years ago it was that the game was flat, boring, there weren't enough releases, no one was getting the army lists for all those cute models they've collected over the years, the gripe list goes on. Now GW has turned quite a bit around. They're filling out their range, they are literally providing so much stuff you people are now *****ing about getting TOO MUCH.

Take this thread for example. Crimson Slaughter codex, big deal. Did they announce it was the last codex they're doing? Have they given anyone any reason to believe they don't continue to deliver codexes and supplementals to fill out the gaps? No, and yet the minute literally every new product gets announced a thread kicks off and within 2 pages it goes down burning in flames. Every Single Product.

That's right, the problem isn't GW at this point, it's the community.

[Deadlift]

Garbage, garbage and more garbage. The GW community online is as toxic as it comes. No matter what you guys and girls get it's not enough. Please allow me to explain.

A few years ago it was that the game was flat, boring, there weren't enough releases, no one was getting the army lists for all those cute models they've collected over the years, the gripe list goes on. Now GW has turned quite a bit around. They're filling out their range, they are literally providing so much stuff you people are now *****ing about getting TOO MUCH.

Take this thread for example. Crimson Slaughter codex, big deal. Did they announce it was the last codex they're doing? Have they given anyone any reason to believe they don't continue to deliver codexes and supplementals to fill out the gaps? No, and yet the minute literally every new product gets announced a thread kicks off and within 2 pages it goes down burning in flames. Every Single Product.

That's right, the problem isn't GW at this point, it's the community.

I kind of agree with your sentiment, but yet......not.

As you say just look at how GW have ramped up their releases. Where as we used to get something new maybe every couple of months or even longer (the gap between Necrons and Chaos marines I think was 11 months) we now get new releases it seems weekly.
But I can also understand the disappointment at a release that on the face of it nobody really wanted.
I myself love GWs products for the most part, I'm super jazzed about the Imperial Knights but kind of disappointed at the Crimson Slaughter as the next chaos codex release. But your right in saying that opinions go to the extreme at either end of the fan base and it's never more evident than on the forums. However when you walk into a GW store and talk to the customers and locals, they certainly do not have the sentiment about GW as we see sometimes here. It's generally in my area always positive.
I may not like the release schedule all the time but it's really hard to knock GW at the moment, they have really gone all out to add more choice to their ranges in the last 18 months and that's to be commended.

[ToHitMod]

If the online community that puported to represent my entire customer base reacted like such children because of an optional book of rules being released that wasn't the particular book of rules that they felt entitled to, then I'd **** off and not interact with them and stick to interacting in their hobby stores with the people who are giving them money.

[marful]

If the online community that puported to represent my entire customer base reacted like such children because of an optional book of rules being released that wasn't the particular book of rules that they felt entitled to, then I'd **** off and not interact with them and stick to interacting in their hobby stores with the people who are giving them money.
I don't know about you, but if a significant portion of my customers banded together to form an online community and unanimously *****ed about my products, pricing and service, I'd be out of a job within a month as sales plummeted due to my customers all going to other companies.

But that's probably due to the difference between the industry I work in, where there are literally thousands of competitors in every city, and an incredibly niche hobby market built around disposable income where you are lucky if your city even has a single supplier, let alone competition.


At my previous job, every time a customer came to us upset and pissed off, my boss would tell me that it was just an opportunity. He would then take every reasonable action to fix the problem, satisfy the customer and give them something to make them want to come back. And next month they would be back, with another job. That's just smart business.


GW has the potential to make a lot of profit.

Or, you know, they could ignore their customer base. The same customer base that are screaming "take our money", if only GW would sell product XYZ...

[DWest]

If the online community that puported to represent my entire customer base reacted like such children because of an optional book of rules being released that wasn't the particular book of rules that they felt entitled to, then I'd **** off and not interact with them and stick to interacting in their hobby stores with the people who are giving them money.
Except that 1) they're not interacting with the people "giving them money" either. There are numerous rules interactions that need an FAQ, and none such have been issued in over a year. Yes, they've done a few, but those have all been minor fixes to books that were caught after printing.

And 2) the Chaos community has made clear time and time again what they'd like to see, and with this release GW has gone as far away from that wish list as possible. So when it fails to sell well (because it's not what the old hands want, and it's a warband that's not high-enough profile to draw in passers-by), it's going to be GW pitching the childish temper-tantrum when they don't make any money on it.

[Mr Mystery]

I don't know about you, but if a significant portion of my customers banded together to form an online community and unanimously *****ed about my products, pricing and service, I'd be out of a job within a month as sales plummeted due to my customers all going to other companies.

But that's probably due to the difference between the industry I work in, where there are literally thousands of competitors in every city, and an incredibly niche hobby market built around disposable income where you are lucky if your city even has a single supplier, let alone competition.


At my previous job, every time a customer came to us upset and pissed off, my boss would tell me that it was just an opportunity. He would then take every reasonable action to fix the problem, satisfy the customer and give them something to make them want to come back. And next month they would be back, with another job. That's just smart business.


GW has the potential to make a lot of profit.

Or, you know, they could ignore their customer base. The same customer base that are screaming "take our money", if only GW would sell product XYZ...

You have a strange definition of 'significant' and 'unanimous' there fella.

I see the same people making the same complaints, and that's not everyone in any given thread.

Majority of gamers aren't even online.

So small section, making a lot of noise. Significant? Dunno. I don't exactly have figures on how many active GW gamers there are in the world, so can't say for sure. Unanimous? Hardly. They can never quite agree what the issues are, except their army isn't hard enough.

[ToHitMod]

Exactly what I was saying, why bother with a small, vocal minority of entitled people when you can concentrate on more important things, its the internet echo chamber effect, the same few people on lots of different forums and message boards making the same old complaints, reassuring each other that the army is broken because they can't win any games.

GW have a much bigger interest in getting this right than some people on the internet, they have more money invested and a ton more experience in delivering war games than nearly any company in the world, just because you don't like what they're doing, doesn't mean they don't have a plan

[Charon]

And 2) the Chaos community has made clear time and time again what they'd like to see, and with this release GW has gone as far away from that wish list as possible. So when it fails to sell well (because it's not what the old hands want, and it's a warband that's not high-enough profile to draw in passers-by), it's going to be GW pitching the childish temper-tantrum when they don't make any money on it.

Even worse. GW tends to make "brilliant" conclusions why a product was not selling. So it is possible that (if the supplement is not going well) they just say "well ppl are not interested in CSM, better do more SM supplements".
I would have gone with a "Chaos" Knight, a Codex: Random Chaos Legion and a few Helbrutes if they played their cards right.
But as there is no "Chaos Knight", the supplement features a completely uninteresting warband (personal opinion) and I already got my Helbrutes from ebay for around 5 € a piece nearly half a year ago there is no point for me to make me buy that stuff. I'm sure that I'm not the only one and I also believe that GW will (if there is a lack in sales of these things) conclude that there is a lack of interest in chaos stuff

[Mr Mystery]

Can you cite your sources there Charon, as you seem to be claiming some kind of in depth knowledge about GW's decision making process, which surely you could only have garnered from both the design studio and corporate meetings?

Or is it just assumption?

[ToHitMod]

Even worse. GW tends to make "brilliant" conclusions why a product was not selling. So it is possible that (if the supplement is not going well) they just say "well ppl are not interested in CSM, better do more SM supplements".
I would have gone with a "Chaos" Knight, a Codex: Random Chaos Legion and a few Helbrutes if they played their cards right.
But as there is no "Chaos Knight", the supplement features a completely uninteresting warband (personal opinion) and I already got my Helbrutes from ebay for around 5 € a piece nearly half a year ago there is no point for me to make me buy that stuff. I'm sure that I'm not the only one and I also believe that GW will (if there is a lack in sales of these things) conclude that there is a lack of interest in chaos stuff

But what about someone who loved the Dark Vengence set, read the books and loved The Crimson Slaughter and want to get more, these people must exist, printing books can be a big gamble, its a big outlay for those lovely hardbacks they make now, they'd have gone digital if they didn't think it would sell.

The fact that you're whining about not getting what you want right now is just proof positive of you feeling entitled to something which you have no entitlement to.

Games workshop sold you a book with rules for a game, they have no responsibility to make sure you're a happy little bunny after that and subsequent book releases are up to them as a business.

Chaos Knights will come in time, they had to do the Imperial Knight first, its a bigger and easier sell than a Chaos one, once they get superheavies on game boards then the flood gates are opened.

Your legion supplements will come, in time, as they come up with the ideas and get them right and find the best time to release them, its up to them to determine that and crying like a child just makes what you deem to be the Chaos fanbase look childish

[Charon]

More common sense. Or do you think its a funny coincidence that armies that make a huge profits get updates more often (thus generating even more money)?
But the question alone shows that you have never ever run a business nor you are in any position to make decisions based on data.
Dark Eldar and Orks are selling quite bad, so they dont get upgraded that often.
Space Marines are selling extremely well, so we try to squeeze more products in our Space Marine range.
Thats a very basic decision. Not exactly rocket science.

[Mr Mystery]

And from where do you have your figures about individual army sales, on a global base?

GW don't publish them as part of their reports. So where did you get them? Or have you again just plucked them from thin air, labelled them 'common sense' and hoped people swallow it?

Space Marines do sell well, which is why they have so many flavours, to better service that section, and provide additional variety.

Other than that? Cite your figures and sources.

[Charon]

But what about someone who loved the Dark Vengence set, read the books and loved The Crimson Slaughter and want to get more, these people must exist, printing books can be a big gamble, its a big outlay for those lovely hardbacks they make now, they'd have gone digital if they didn't think it would sell.

The fact that you're whining about not getting what you want right now is just proof positive of you feeling entitled to something which you have no entitlement to.

Games workshop sold you a book with rules for a game, they have no responsibility to make sure you're a happy little bunny after that and subsequent book releases are up to them as a business.

Chaos Knights will come in time, they had to do the Imperial Knight first, its a bigger and easier sell than a Chaos one, once they get superheavies on game boards then the flood gates are opened.

Your legion supplements will come, in time, as they come up with the ideas and get them right and find the best time to release them, its up to them to determine that and crying like a child just makes what you deem to be the Chaos fanbase look childish

Sure. This ppl exist. Time (or sales) will tell if these ppl are the majority. But after there is only one source that even mentions the crimson Slaughter and dozends of sources who mention the more well known legions (Rulebook, Codex: CSM and nearly all BL books about Chaos) I rather bet that ppl would like to get more of the 40k background relevant armies. Sure you can always go with Codex: Baran, a Imperial Guard Supplement but I would bet that a Codex Cadia, Catachan, Tanith, Steel Legion, Krieg, Mordia, Tallarn, Valhally, Vostojan,... is better received (and sold) in general.

Pls read the text and dont make up some stupid stuff which you WANT to read. Im not whining, I just state that there is nothing for me to buy (huhu! I got money to spend, dear manufacturer) even if I would like to buy.
If this is whining to you, then yes... I tend to whine a lot when I go shopping for shoes and have to go in 3 stores to find what I want. They really have to drawn in tear then.

"Chaos Knights will come in time, Legion supplements will come...." Can I borrow your magical crystal ball please? Mine seems to be broken.
Or to cite the previous guy "Do you have a deep inner knowledge of GW shedule?"
GW sometimes doesnt even provide every model, so how do you think you can predict the future of supplements when they even fail to deliver CORE for some armies?

[Mr Mystery]

They're actively working on a complete model range, and have been for a year or two, so I think his prediction is quite correct.

Plus, they're rattling through their existing forces very quickly. 6th Ed is a little under two years old, and the only existing armies yet to be covered? Orks, Imperial Guard*, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, and I think that's about it from memory.

They've also been releasing new material at a great rate of knots, which is suddenly a bad thing now they're doing it, as opposed to not doing it being the bad thing when they didn't do it. Who knows what is to come apart from the core books? Not I. But you seem just as adamant there won't be nice things for Chaos.

[ToHitMod]

Sure. This ppl exist. Time (or sales) will tell if these ppl are the majority. But after there is only one source that even mentions the crimson Slaughter and dozends of sources who mention the more well known legions (Rulebook, Codex: CSM and nearly all BL books about Chaos) I rather bet that ppl would like to get more of the 40k background relevant armies. Sure you can always go with Codex: Baran, a Imperial Guard Supplement but I would bet that a Codex Cadia, Catachan, Tanith, Steel Legion, Krieg, Mordia, Tallarn, Valhally, Vostojan,... is better received (and sold) in general.

Pls read the text and dont make up some stupid stuff which you WANT to read. Im not whining, I just state that there is nothing for me to buy (huhu! I got money to spend, dear manufacturer) even if I would like to buy.
If this is whining to you, then yes... I tend to whine a lot when I go shopping for shoes and have to go in 3 stores to find what I want. They really have to drawn in tear then.

"Chaos Knights will come in time, Legion supplements will come...." Can I borrow your magical crystal ball please? Mine seems to be broken.
Or to cite the previous guy "Do you have a deep inner knowledge of GW shedule?"
GW sometimes doesnt even provide every model, so how do you think you can predict the future of supplements when they even fail to deliver CORE for some armies?

The crimson slaughter are mentioned in several places, the Dark Vengence set, the tie in novels, the Codex, and now this supplement, GW obviously like them and they do have great fluff, really good actually.

You are whining, all though this thread and other, maybe you don't know what whining means? But yeah, its what you're doing.

GW now do supply every unit with a model, all new codexes have all units modelled and available.

I have no idea what you're even trying to say with the last part though, you've lost me.

[Charon]

They're actively working on a complete model range, and have been for a year or two, so I think his prediction is quite correct.

Plus, they're rattling through their existing forces very quickly. 6th Ed is a little under two years old, and the only existing armies yet to be covered? Orks, Imperial Guard*, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, and I think that's about it from memory.

They've also been releasing new material at a great rate of knots, which is suddenly a bad thing now they're doing it, as opposed to not doing it being the bad thing when they didn't do it. Who knows what is to come apart from the core books? Not I. But you seem just as adamant there won't be nice things for Chaos.

Mabe Im adamant because I hear "Hey Chaos will get X!" For 10 years now?
Eldar still not fully covered (since over 20 years btw)


The crimson slaughter are mentioned in several places, the Dark Vengence set, the tie in novels, the Codex, and now this supplement,

WOW. Amazing. Im speechless. So many soures that you even had to tie the supplement in. Unlike lets say Thousand Sons where we only have the Rulebook, all the Codices from 2nd to now, the HH books, some SW books, the SW codex, the Dawn of War books (ok... dont let us talk about these.... urgs),.. but yeah I guess a random never mentioned bevore warband is more interesing after all.
At least that was what I read constantly.. "Where is our Crimson Slaughter codex?" "Why dont we have a codex for they new minitures?" "Waiting for Crimson Slaughter more than 6 Months now!" Must have missed it.

[Katharon]

Ah, I missed the roll thing. Forgot they aren't always Crazed like they were in the last book. But even with the 5++, you're still not hard to kill and don't put out much firepower.

Well the idea is to get this baby into close combat and wail away...but maybe have a Reaper Autocannon for its stock armament?

[ToHitMod]

Mabe Im adamant because I hear "Hey Chaos will get X!" For 10 years now?
Eldar still not fully covered (since over 20 years btw)


What, precisely have you heard?
GW don't discuss whats coming and haven't for a long long time, to ensure that people aren't disapointed, they only reveal whats happening when its ready to be shipped out. If you're upset because Chaos didn't get something you heard they would, you shouldn't be listening to rumours

Eldar do have a full range, some of the models are old and need replacing, certainly, but that takes time, plastic molds are expensive and time consuming to make, and building up a stock of models to sell is expensive and takes time too.

[bfmusashi]

Chaos is being treated in real life exactly how they're treated in universe. It's beautiful.

[lattd]

Chaos as in fluff and real life is just full of empty promises and shattered dreams

[DrBored]

Chaos is being treated in real life exactly how they're treated in universe. It's beautiful.

We're just following what we've been told, straight from the mouths of the Noise Marines in Dawn of War 2:

SCREAM TO BE HEARD!

[bfmusashi]

Better watch out. Drawing a chaos god's attention gets you the 'gift' of enhanced olfactory sense while surrounded by a bunch of guys that haven't bathed in 10k years and have a bunch of unsavory hobbies.

[Eldar_Atog]

Eldar do have a full range, some of the models are old and need replacing, certainly, but that takes time, plastic molds are expensive and time consuming to make, and building up a stock of models to sell is expensive and takes time too.

Sorry, but the Eldar range is not complete yet. There are plenty of weapon options that can't be represented without conversion work. The Warp Spider Exarch is a good example of that. Also, you still have to go to Chapter House if you want a farseer riding a jetbike.

The Eldar range is not missing much but it is not complete yet.

[ToHitMod]

Sorry, but the Eldar range is not complete yet. There are plenty of weapon options that can't be represented without conversion work. The Warp Spider Exarch is a good example of that. Also, you still have to go to Chapter House if you want a farseer riding a jetbike.

The Eldar range is not missing much but it is not complete yet.

Or you can convert one with the plastic farseer, its not got all options covered, but then, its such a vast and varied game, most ranges are like that, even Space Marines don't have every option covered.

[Charon]

What, precisely have you heard?
GW don't discuss whats coming and haven't for a long long time, to ensure that people aren't disapointed, they only reveal whats happening when its ready to be shipped out. If you're upset because Chaos didn't get something you heard they would, you shouldn't be listening to rumours

Statements like these:


Chaos Knights will come in time, they had to do the Imperial Knight first, its a bigger and easier sell than a Chaos one, once they get superheavies on game boards then the flood gates are opened.

Your legion supplements will come, in time, as they come up with the ideas and get them right and find the best time to release them...

So I guess I really should not listen to ppl like you anymore...



Eldar do have a full range, some of the models are old and need replacing, certainly, but that takes time, plastic molds are expensive and time consuming to make, and building up a stock of models to sell is expensive and takes time too.

They do not have a full range. Neither does Choas. There are a lot of options missing, Jetseers still missing. And dont start the "but you can always convert..." thingy. You can always convert shiny space marine troops. Doesnt stop them receiving updates nearly every new codex.

[Eldar_Atog]

Or you can convert one with the plastic farseer, its not got all options covered, but then, its such a vast and varied game, most ranges are like that, even Space Marines don't have every option covered.

That's not a conversion I would want to do myself. Eldar are great as a painting army but a little unforgiving when it comes to conversions.

Getting back to the knights:

Yeah, I think most players would be cool with a house rule saying Chaos could take a knight... but that sentiment would not be universal. All it takes is one TO or WAAC player to ruin an experience. I've seen wonderful conversions and fluffy armies be thrown out or barred because of nothing more than malice.

For better or worse, our hobby draws in people that have no social skills and low self esteem. We all have faced off against the guy that just doesn't know how to interact or views winning a game as their sole form of validation. He looks at your converted model and only sees it as something that take away his victory (only source of validation). I've had people fuss over the silliest things.. like when I proxied Dark Eldar jetbikes for Eldar jetbikes.

[Conks]

Seems to me that GW is trying to be very clever with how they want to release their model ranges/Updates etc. Everyone wants new models and codex, that is a given. However, GW also knows that they have just introduced a new Chaos Chapter ( Crimson Slaughter ) which introduced new sculpts and more importantly, the Hellbrute. They need a "vehicle/platform" in order to help push these new sculpts, and the DV boxset was their play.

As I read the "tea leaves," why would GW cater first to players who already have a Death Guard/Emperors Children/Alpha Legion/Iron Warriors, when they are trying to "re-vamp" the range. So even if GW isn't giving the veteran players their "just desserts" I feel FW is making a better statement with the Heresy Line, which is letting GW dabble in other avenues ( Crimson Slaughter ) and possibly circle back to Chaos Legion Specifics later than current players would like.

I am not thinking what GW is doing is the best course, but when you factor in what FW is doing things seem to make more sense ( IMO ).

[DrBored]

Seems to me that GW is trying to be very clever with how they want to release their model ranges/Updates etc. Everyone wants new models and codex, that is a given. However, GW also knows that they have just introduced a new Chaos Chapter ( Crimson Slaughter ) which introduced new sculpts and more importantly, the Hellbrute. They need a "vehicle/platform" in order to help push these new sculpts, and the DV boxset was their play.

As I read the "tea leaves," why would GW cater first to players who already have a Death Guard/Emperors Children/Alpha Legion/Iron Warriors, when they are trying to "re-vamp" the range. So even if GW isn't giving the veteran players their "just desserts" I feel FW is making a better statement with the Heresy Line, which is letting GW dabble in other avenues ( Crimson Slaughter ) and possibly circle back to Chaos Legion Specifics later than current players would like.

I am not thinking what GW is doing is the best course, but when you factor in what FW is doing things seem to make more sense ( IMO ).

Y'know, as I read through these various posts and points, I'm starting to agree with this line of thinking.

Us guys that have been collecting (and possibly worshiping) Chaos for years... well, many of us already have most of the things for our armies. I myself have 6 Blastmasters and nearly 30 Sonic Blasters. If GW released a new kit for those weapons, yeah, I might buy it, but I'm probably not going to replace all of those older models with the newer ones.

However, the new stuff, a proper plastic Helbrute (because we all know how well the big metal GW Chaos Dread sold), and kits for models never before seen, like the Heldrake, Cultists, and Forgefiend, will sell like hotcakes because new players and vets alike will want them.

Then, to satisfy peoples' screams for Legions, FW has stepped up to the plate to release the Legions themselves, and as they release more and more of them, more Chaosy models start to emerge. Anyone who really truly wants to play a true Legion can pick up the Horus Heresy rules and either use their normal Chaos Marines they already have, or get a bunch of fancy Forgeworld models.

I was reading through the Chaos Marine Codex, and there are a lot of mentions of things mentioned in another topic here on BOLS, about the Chaos v Loyalist Supply Chain. The idea that many Chaos Marine factions have to flee and retreat into the warp where there's incredible amounts of infighting, where time moves differently, where Chaos Marines are disenchanted, jaded, conniving, only their inner self-purpose keeping them from devolving into useless Spawn... Yes, it makes sense that Chaos Marines wouldn't have Fearless or Stubborn, because they are neither of those things.

Do I like it? No, not really, but I'm starting to put it all together, and I'm starting to think that GW really isn't treating us *that* bad...

Though I'm still waiting for new cult troops, a proper box of Cultists, and a revamped Chaos Marine and Chaos Terminator kits, and maybe some rules that put the regular Chaos Marine back into the realm of usefulness.

Oh, and can we all just agree to get rid of the 'First Blood' rule so we can play our Rhinos again?

[George Labour]

It might also be a means of encouraging folks to 'forge the narrative' by thinking outside the box on just who their spikey boyz are. An emphasis on a lesser known but still chaos marine group could be a vehicle to help break people from their legion and red corsair fixations and instead explore the wider range of warband possibilities. Maybe even create their own ideas beyond World Eater angry lad group #9820019047

Although I'll admit that this would likely be just a side effect of their marketing strategy rather than the driving force behind it.

[Charon]

The Legions where a MAJOR difference to to the smaller loyal chapters.
Keeping focus on small warbands just means degrading them to "loyalists with spikes and crappy gear" which is very different from the "huge horde of bloodthirsty maniacs" we had before.
World Eater angry lad group #9820019047 is clearly a sign that 9820019047 people want to play EXACTLY that. We probably also have more ppl here who play Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Ultramarines, Space wolves, Blood angels, Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Ulthwe, Iyanden, Alaitoc,.... than ppl who play Black Wings, Imperial Harbingers, Arach-Qin, Zahr-Tann,.. that may be "uncreative" but as long as ppl are comfortable with this I can see no problem. On a sidenote, that ppl probably also want supplements for their chapters and craftword. Just imagine the ****storm when they would cancel a Codex: Blood Angels, roll them into Codex: Space Marines and instead stark cranking out Codex: Black Wings, a Codex: Space Marine supplement followed by Codex: Guardians of the Temple, a Codex Space Marine supplement portraining the 2nd Company of Ultramarines.
Now imagine that you have been a Blood Angel Player by heart and soul and you will feel a glimpse of what many (longtime) chaos players have been going through for years.

[George Labour]

Or it's a sign that perhaps you're far to eager to lash out in pessimistic rage instead of taking an idle thought as being nothing more than a bit of calm musing.

[Eldar_Atog]

Y'know, as I read through these various posts and points, I'm starting to agree with this line of thinking.


Has there been a lot of fussing from the Chaos players about the model range though? Forgeworld is always putting out something new for Chaos and the new Helbrute model looks great. Plus, plastic havocs keep getting mentioned in the rumors.

I thought the main sticking point was that one of the better army builds for the Chaos Space Marine army contained almost no chaos space marines.

[skarzog]

I hope the supplement explains why Crimson Slaughter are shown using ornate Chaos armour instead of their normal marine gear. It's always seemed a bit weird that newly formed renegade chapters adopt spiky filigrees so quickly.

[marful]

You have a strange definition of 'significant' and 'unanimous' there fella.

I see the same people making the same complaints, and that's not everyone in any given thread.
Significant != Majority.

And you think BoLS is the only web presence for gamers?


Majority of gamers aren't even online.
Bullsh*t.

[Deadlift]

Seems to me that GW is trying to be very clever with how they want to release their model ranges/Updates etc. Everyone wants new models and codex, that is a given. However, GW also knows that they have just introduced a new Chaos Chapter ( Crimson Slaughter ) which introduced new sculpts and more importantly, the Hellbrute. They need a "vehicle/platform" in order to help push these new sculpts, and the DV boxset was their play.

As I read the "tea leaves," why would GW cater first to players who already have a Death Guard/Emperors Children/Alpha Legion/Iron Warriors, when they are trying to "re-vamp" the range. So even if GW isn't giving the veteran players their "just desserts" I feel FW is making a better statement with the Heresy Line, which is letting GW dabble in other avenues ( Crimson Slaughter ) and possibly circle back to Chaos Legion Specifics later than current players would like.

I am not thinking what GW is doing is the best course, but when you factor in what FW is doing things seem to make more sense ( IMO ).

Admittedly I'd never thought of the release schedule like that. Why release something when those who really want the codex already have the models. Makes fair sense to me. Very good point.

[BrianDavion]

The Legions where a MAJOR difference to to the smaller loyal chapters.
Keeping focus on small warbands just means degrading them to "loyalists with spikes and crappy gear" which is very different from the "huge horde of bloodthirsty maniacs" we had before.
World Eater angry lad group #9820019047 is clearly a sign that 9820019047 people want to play EXACTLY that. We probably also have more ppl here who play Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Ultramarines, Space wolves, Blood angels, Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Ulthwe, Iyanden, Alaitoc,.... than ppl who play Black Wings, Imperial Harbingers, Arach-Qin, Zahr-Tann,.. that may be "uncreative" but as long as ppl are comfortable with this I can see no problem. On a sidenote, that ppl probably also want supplements for their chapters and craftword. Just imagine the ****storm when they would cancel a Codex: Blood Angels, roll them into Codex: Space Marines and instead stark cranking out Codex: Black Wings, a Codex: Space Marine supplement followed by Codex: Guardians of the Temple, a Codex Space Marine supplement portraining the 2nd Company of Ultramarines.
Now imagine that you have been a Blood Angel Player by heart and soul and you will feel a glimpse of what many (longtime) chaos players have been going through for years.


except that the legions etc have never had their own codex. I think a better compairson would be to ask how you'd feel if you went from a codex like the space marine 6th edition codex, and futre codexes removed options and cut chapter tactics

[bfmusashi]

The Legions where a MAJOR difference to to the smaller loyal chapters.
Keeping focus on small warbands just means degrading them to "loyalists with spikes and crappy gear" which is very different from the "huge horde of bloodthirsty maniacs" we had before.
World Eater angry lad group #9820019047 is clearly a sign that 9820019047 people want to play EXACTLY that. We probably also have more ppl here who play Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Ultramarines, Space wolves, Blood angels, Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Ulthwe, Iyanden, Alaitoc,.... than ppl who play Black Wings, Imperial Harbingers, Arach-Qin, Zahr-Tann,.. that may be "uncreative" but as long as ppl are comfortable with this I can see no problem. On a sidenote, that ppl probably also want supplements for their chapters and craftword. Just imagine the ****storm when they would cancel a Codex: Blood Angels, roll them into Codex: Space Marines and instead stark cranking out Codex: Black Wings, a Codex: Space Marine supplement followed by Codex: Guardians of the Temple, a Codex Space Marine supplement portraining the 2nd Company of Ultramarines.
Now imagine that you have been a Blood Angel Player by heart and soul and you will feel a glimpse of what many (longtime) chaos players have been going through for years.

I subsist on the salty tears of nerd rage.

[daboarder]

MAAkselMarch 7, 2014 at 4:19 PM

Read through the book... only 2 pages worth of actual rules.

Forsaken become troops, lose whatever the forsaken special rule is
and gain a D3 roll at the start of their owning players turn. 1 = change
from 'infantry' to 'beasts'. 2 = 3++, 3 = (I believe) always wounds on a
3+ and gains rending.

A few new items, the only one I recall specifically is a 2+ armor
save, crusader and 'it will not die' for 40 points. There was another
one that gave access to divination for 25 points.

The only warlord trait I thought was 'nice' was warlord gains shrouded.

Hope this helps!

Via a user on faiet, well it would be atleast working towards fixing teh problems.

Looks to me like this supplement is basically "Word Bearers" With a fancy name, so maybe the Dude was right in his supposition. still all kinds of bizarre. I may use the llist if only for the Divination relic in my list

[DrBored]

Via a user on faiet, well it would be atleast working towards fixing teh problems.

Looks to me like this supplement is basically "Word Bearers" With a fancy name, so maybe the Dude was right in his supposition. still all kinds of bizarre. I may use the llist if only for the Divination relic in my list

Indeed. Getting access to Divination might change the game up at least a little bit.

At first glance, and without seeing the actual wording of the Possessed rolls, it's hard to see that this chart would be any better. It's at the start of the player turn, which seems to be... you either get extra mobility, extra survivability, or extra killy... Once you're in close combat though, you only want that last one, and if you roll the others, you're making just regular old attacks, which kind of sucks, really.

So, at first glance, Possess still suck.

Warlord getting Shrouded would be nice, but nothing you can depend on.

[Bigred]

Doing some digging:


Possessed Chaos Marines:
Possessed move to Troops
They replace the default Possessed ability chart with this new one:
1: Unit changes from Infantry to Beasts
2: Unit gains a 3+ Invulnerable
3: Unit gains Rending, and wounds on a 3+,

Relics:
- Relic grants 2+ Armor Save, Crusader, It Will Not Die special rules +40pts
- Relic grants access to Divination +25 points.

7753775477557756

[Eldar_Atog]

I subsist on the salty tears of nerd rage.

You do know that it's best to avoid a high sodium diet, right?

[Eberk]

Plus, plastic havocs keep getting mentioned in the rumors

White Dwarf #6 the large picture on page 23. Is that a new weapon the model on the right is holding or is it a conversion ? anyone ?

[MajorWesJanson]

WOW. Amazing. Im speechless. So many soures that you even had to tie the supplement in. Unlike lets say Thousand Sons where we only have the Rulebook, all the Codices from 2nd to now, the HH books, some SW books, the SW codex, the Dawn of War books (ok... dont let us talk about these.... urgs),.. but yeah I guess a random never mentioned bevore warband is more interesing after all.
At least that was what I read constantly.. "Where is our Crimson Slaughter codex?" "Why dont we have a codex for they new minitures?" "Waiting for Crimson Slaughter more than 6 Months now!" Must have missed it.

Any new additions to the fluff have to start somewhere. Or would you rather not see any new warbands for chaos, and instead yet more focus on a legion that already has a rulebook, codices HH books, SW books, SW codex, Dawn of War books, and some BL books all covering them already?


White Dwarf #6 the large picture on page 23. Is that a new weapon the model on the right is holding or is it a conversion ? anyone ?

It's a converted SM Devastator Heavy bolter.

[Charon]

Any new additions to the fluff have to start somewhere. Or would you rather not see any new warbands for chaos, and instead yet more focus on a legion that already has a rulebook, codices HH books, SW books, SW codex, Dawn of War books, and some BL books all covering them already?


To fluff? Sure. Bring on the Choas Renegade Storys. The more the better! Basically the whole idea of renegade warbands promotes the idea to make your own warband with your own fluff.
And there it stops. Fluff. Not rules. And there is your misunderstanding of the matter:


and instead yet more focus on a legion that already has a rulebook, codices HH books, SW books, SW codex, Dawn of War books, and some BL books all covering them already?

Thats the things which are MISSING. We have fluff about the Nightlords, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Thousand Sons,... but we have no RULES/CODICES for them. While on the other hand we hardly have any fluff for the crimson slaughter (the idea was created with the Dark Vengance box, no mention of them earlier) but they get an exclusive codex/rules.

[bfmusashi]

Thats the things which are MISSING. We have fluff about the Nightlords, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Thousand Sons,... but we have no RULES/CODICES for them. While on the other hand we hardly have any fluff for the crimson slaughter (the idea was created with the Dark Vengance box, no mention of them earlier) but they get an exclusive codex/rules.

Supplement codexes are for fluff and some play options not present in the parent book. The only Legion on your list that is not covered by the main book is Iron Warriors. As to fluff, all the traitor legions have tons of fluff written about them. The only named character they've kept around that they kind of neglected was Huron Blackheart and then he got two friggin' IA books about his little secession adventure.

[Charon]

As you said. Fluff but not


some play options not present in the parent book.

And thats what ppl who complain would like to have.
Codex Supplement: Night Lords
Codex Supplement: Iron Warriors
Codex Supplement: Thousand Sons
Codex Supplement: Word Bearers
Codex Supplement: Alpha Legion
....

because they ARE different and schould PLAY different.
So please give us RULES for them, as they are not covered (rulewise) by the main Codex.

[bfmusashi]

As you said. Fluff but not


And thats what ppl who complain would like to have.
Codex Supplement: Night Lords
Codex Supplement: Iron Warriors
Codex Supplement: Thousand Sons
Codex Supplement: Word Bearers
Codex Supplement: Alpha Legion
....

because they ARE different and schould PLAY different.
So please give us RULES for them, as they are not covered (rulewise) by the main Codex.

The last three are stupid easy to do with the codex, and they DO play differently. You can argue Night Lords should have Raptor troops if you want, but they're almost always foot sloggers when they show up in stories. Like I said, Iron Warriors are the only Legion you can't make with the current 'dex.

[theresponsibleone]

The Codex Supplements that Games Workshop are putting out at the moment are, by and large, the "low hanging fruit" - projects where a specific writer has been a bit enthused on a subject. They'll always do lower risk stuff first - Black Legion consisted of tiny rules changes, and no extra models. Crimson Slaughter comes out, it sounds like the rules changes are a little more significant this time, and it's put out alongside the Helbrute, which was a model that had definitely been missing for a long time.

If I were the GW, I'd be holding off on doing the Traitor Legion Codexes, by and large, until a little later in the schedule. They deserve more models alongside them - fully plastic cult troops for those who are still made through "upgrade sets", perhaps cult terminators - and that involves finding a gap in the plastic production schedule to fit it in. You also want to gradually build up the changes and additional rules in supplements gradually to see how the earlier ones fare.

Also, any Traitor Legion Codex is going to be held up and compared to Forge World and Mr Bligh's work on the Heresy, and that's going to be really rather intimidating to anyone in the business..

[Charon]

The last three are stupid easy to do with the codex, and they DO play differently.

How?
Alpha Legion relies on infiltration tactics -> no infiltrators in the rules.
Word Bearers could be OK-ish if you like to take allies and have no impactful character choice.
Thousand Sons is quite impossible as you end up with an unfluffy list (all thousand sons are either sorcerer or "dusted" - a space marine with only mark of tzeentch is no thousand son)

[Darren Richardson]

WOW the amount of whining and moaning from Chaos Players lately is astunding, they seem to be hijacking nearly every thread on not only chaos rumours but also Imperial based threads these days...

Seriously you guys, how would you like us Loyalist players griping on all your threads about this....

Plastic Thunderhawk :D

seriously though for all those complaining about lack of Legion rules, have you really read the fluff, the legions broke up once they entered the Eye of Terror due to infighting, THERE ARE NO LEGIONS ANYMORE!!!!!

All that is left of the legions are warbands led by the hardest nuts EG company captains, SiC's etc.

Now if you are really desperate look for old issues of White Dwarf which contain the Codex Astertes articles, I'm sure your friends and local gaming group will let you use the rules from those to represemntn your "legions"

Now I admit you won't be able to use them in Tourney's and you may need to tinker with them to get them to work but most groups will happily let you use them with the groups "House Rules"

As long as Games Workshop remains a viable bussiness, there will always be more Mind-dexes and Codex Supplements made, it is after all one source of income for them, just learn to be patient.

[Charon]

seriously though for all those complaining about lack of Legion rules, have you really read the fluff, the legions broke up once they entered the Eye of Terror due to infighting, THERE ARE NO LEGIONS ANYMORE!!!!!

All that is left of the legions are warbands led by the hardest nuts EG company captains, SiC's etc.

And all the loyal Space Marine Legions broke up into chapters. Does this mean they all should be the same now? So no more Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Dark Angels, Ultramarines, Space Wolves,... just a generic Codex for all of them? And the first Supplement could be Codex: Silver Guard. Im sure all Marine players would weep tears of joy.
Preach water, drink wine.

[bfmusashi]

And all the loyal Space Marine Legions broke up into chapters. Does this mean they all should be the same now? So no more Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Dark Angels, Ultramarines, Space Wolves,... just a generic Codex for all of them? And the first Supplement could be Codex: Silver Guard. Im sure all Marine players would weep tears of joy.
Preach water, drink wine.

Since Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, White Scars, and Salamanders are in one book that would seem to answer your question. The only former legions with their own books are Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels and every time one of them comes out people are quick to point out they don't really NEED their own book. Oh, and the first supplement after Codex: Chaos Space Marines was for the Black Legion... so, not really sure where you were going with that.

[daboarder]

Missing the point like a champ^

[LCS]

Still no legions? So still no money GW-morons. Who cares about the next renegades.

Thanks. I just wouldn't be a thread about CSM without someone complaining about no legion rules.

[Charon]

Since Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, White Scars, and Salamanders are in one book that would seem to answer your question.

And they dont have a ruleset to seperate ultramarines from white scars or salamanders? Nothing called "chapter tactics".
Ironically this is about to sum up what many chaos player want. A small table for each of the prime Legions...

[Gleipnir]

And they dont have a ruleset to seperate ultramarines from white scars or salamanders? Nothing called "chapter tactics".
Ironically this is about to sum up what many chaos player want. A small table for each of the prime Legions...

And if CSM received it at the cost of access to Cult Troops what then? CSM could use some love for flavors sake but I suspect anything they are given will never be enough for some players.

[daboarder]

And if CSM received it at the cost of access to Cult Troops what then? CSM could use some love for flavors sake but I suspect anything they are given will never be enough for some players.

what units in a SM army are Iron hand NOT allowed to use again?

[Vangrail]

Idk might look into this. The possessed get a serious buff but I wonder if it is roll once and get the ability or roll once a turn. Now the 2+ relic is gonna get to love too. Question on supplements because I do not own any. Can you use characters from the normal chaos book into this?

[daboarder]

I'm only interested in the Div relic at the moment.

ML 3 Div sorcerer, **** YEAH!

that being said I can see this being a great list for word bearer players, or black legion players that want to reperesent that part of the legion that succumbed to possession.

And the Div relic would give thousand sons players access to one of the things they've been asking for.

GW fixing chaos one supplement at a time.

[Darren Richardson]

And all the loyal Space Marine Legions broke up into chapters. Does this mean they all should be the same now? So no more Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Dark Angels, Ultramarines, Space Wolves,... just a generic Codex for all of them? And the first Supplement could be Codex: Silver Guard. Im sure all Marine players would weep tears of joy.

A generic Codex does me fine, since I am not interested in the over the top DA/BA/SW :D


Preach water, drink wine.

Can't stand wine, the smell of it makes me nauseous....

[Lord-Boofhead]

They replace the default Possessed ability chart with this new one:
1: Unit changes from Infantry to Beasts
2: Unit gains a 3+ Invulnerable
3: Unit gains Rending, and wounds on a 3+,


I hope we see more of this in future Legion and Renegade Chapter Dexes, so as to make the possessed more flavorful.

[Lord-Boofhead]

A generic Codex does me fine, since I am not interested in the over the top DA/BA/SW :D


The DA/BA/SWs are not OTT they are focused in one way or another but weaker in other places. Ya know, balanced?

[DWest]

The DA/BA/SWs are not OTT they are focused in one way or another but weaker in other places. Ya know, balanced?
If you think Space Wolves and Blood Angels were balanced, you either never played 5th or are deliberately being disingenuous for the sake of arguing.

[Lord-Boofhead]

If you think Space Wolves and Blood Angels were balanced, you either never played 5th or are deliberately being disingenuous for the sake of arguing.

I'm sorry I forgot that neckbeards in basements know more about Games design than the pros.

By the way I mean Balanced in the proper way, not waaagh its not all the same like chess.

[DWest]

I'm sorry I forgot that neckbeards in basements know more about Games design than the pros.

By the way I mean Balanced in the proper way, not waaagh its not all the same like chess.
Show me where you're a professional, and then explain to me how things like Jaws of the World Wolf are balanced.

[TheCreator]

Has anybody seen anything more on the Havocs + Chosen? We've got Imperial Guard leaks but no new Chaos Marines?

[Tynskel]

Show me where you're a professional, and then explain to me how things like Jaws of the World Wolf are balanced.

you could always just tell your opponent that you want them to choose different powers from JotWW.

[bfmusashi]

And they dont have a ruleset to seperate ultramarines from white scars or salamanders? Nothing called "chapter tactics".
Ironically this is about to sum up what many chaos player want. A small table for each of the prime Legions...
Wow. As pointed out earlier, the Legions are all dead. Loyalists devolved into chapters bound by martial discipline, Chaos into warbands bound by the individual charisma of their leaders. It wouldn't make thematic sense to have army wide rules for a bunch of guys who break apart and reform at the squad level. At most, they are more closely related to the god they serve than some ancient heraldry they once bore. That's why you can pick the 'chapter tactics' at the squad level through marks and it's hella easy to make what remains of most legions and they play very differently from one another.
Their individual styles of play can be recreated with the current 'dex with almost no effort on your part. Is it hard to play World Eaters warband? Nope, Mark of Khorne makes Beserkers troops and gives vanilla marines some nifty things. Thousand Sons? Mark of Tzeentch on a Sorcerer unlocks rubric troops. Death Guard and Emperor's Children? More mark shenanigans. Alpha Legion? Cultist troops, and if that's not enough, use the Cypher dataslate for infiltrate. Black Legion have a whole supplement that boiled down to 'take veterans of the long war.' Word Bearers? Cultists, normal marines, Dark Apostle, done. So, as stated earlier, you can argue Night Lords should have raptor troops and maybe night fighting and old Iron Warrior lists are hard to make without allies. So, what's the problem? What can't you do? Are you just mad because an army that kind of looks like yours can do things you can't? Do you want orders? Did you want synapse too?

[Surcermark]

I hope we see more of this in future Legion and Renegade Chapter Dexes, so as to make the possessed more flavorful.

They replace the default Possessed ability chart with this new one:
1: Unit changes from Infantry to Beasts
2: Unit gains a 3+ Invulnerable
3: Unit gains Rending, and wounds on a 3+,


If you can combine this with marks and heralds, this rule set is stupid good! If you don't see how, you're not worthy!

[DWest]

you could always just tell your opponent that you want them to choose different powers from JotWW.
Not my point. He wants to claim SW are balanced, I want him to support that claim.

[DarkLink]

you could always just tell your opponent that you want them to choose different powers from JotWW.

I want you to deploy with your vehicle's rear armor facing me. And go ahead and give me first turn while you're at it, and no Seize for you.

[DrBored]

you could always just tell your opponent that you want them to choose different powers from JotWW.

You're joking, right? I hope you're joking.

To all Eldar players: Yeah, just don't take Wraithknights please. Oh, and let's pretend that Wave Serpents don't have those weird stone things.
To all Tau players: Could you just take options OTHER than those Riptides you spent hundreds of dollars on? Oh yeah, and don't use Overwatch. At all. Ever.
To all Space Marine players: Hey, don't take White Scars or Iron Hands, ok? Just pretend those rules don't exist.
To all Ork players: So, can we just ignore the whole Waaagh thing? Yeah, just don't use it.

Are you getting the picture?

[bfmusashi]

I want to update my playing as any legion you want with the Chaos Space Marine codex. It is more accurate to play any "loyalist" codex as Alpha Legion as there are no loyalist marines, only Alpha Legion infiltrators unaware of each other's efforts.

[daboarder]

They replace the default Possessed ability chart with this new one:
1: Unit changes from Infantry to Beasts
2: Unit gains a 3+ Invulnerable
3: Unit gains Rending, and wounds on a 3+,


If you can combine this with marks and heralds, this rule set is stupid gobee If you don't see how, you're not worthy!

Marks maybe. Hopefully.

Heralds? Wha? Just because you are a model with the MoN and the daemon special rule. Doesnt mean you are a daemon of nurgle. They are very specifically 2 different things.

As to kits. No word on havoc or chosen kits. Its currently looking like they may have been made up

[daboarder]

Wow. As pointed out earlier, the Legions are all dead. Loyalists devolved into chapters bound by martial discipline, Chaos into warbands bound by the individual charisma of their leaders. It wouldn't make thematic sense to have army wide rules for a bunch of guys who break apart and reform at the squad level. At most, they are more closely related to the god they serve than some ancient heraldry they once bore. That's why you can pick the 'chapter tactics' at the squad level through marks and it's hella easy to make what remains of most legions and they play very differently from one another.
Their individual styles of play can be recreated with the current 'dex with almost no effort on your part. Is it hard to play World Eaters warband? Nope, Mark of Khorne makes Beserkers troops and gives vanilla marines some nifty things. Thousand Sons? Mark of Tzeentch on a Sorcerer unlocks rubric troops. Death Guard and Emperor's Children? More mark shenanigans. Alpha Legion? Cultist troops, and if that's not enough, use the Cypher dataslate for infiltrate. Black Legion have a whole supplement that boiled down to 'take veterans of the long war.' Word Bearers? Cultists, normal marines, Dark Apostle, done. So, as stated earlier, you can argue Night Lords should have raptor troops and maybe night fighting and old Iron Warrior lists are hard to make without allies. So, what's the problem? What can't you do? Are you just mad because an army that kind of looks like yours can do things you can't? Do you want orders? Did you want synapse too?

The hypocricy it HURTSS!

Seriously that legions are dead is bull**** its also the dumbest argument loylists make since what we are asking for is a set of rule that allow variatio and legio WARBANDS would essentially be the marketing name much like your stupid chapter tactics. News flash the codex astartes is a thing. Yet you get your rules variation. I hope to god next edition they rip chapter tactics from the book. The legions are dead after all and all marines must fight the same way as per guillimans decree.

And on a practical note considering you have twice the units in your main codex alone we NEED some variation

[Darren Richardson]

The DA/BA/SWs are not OTT they are focused in one way or another but weaker in other places. Ya know, balanced?

of course their over the top, how many novels and short stories have been written about them, how many Space Marine armies have been painted in their colours and logos, GW Have been pushing the Big 4 since the beginning along with Crimson Fists who run a close second (mostly because they were on the very first rulebook) as a result every man and his dog at least knows something about them (assume of course they even have an awareness of the game :D )

But how many know about the Rainbow Warriors, The Marines Errent, the Mentors, The Raptor Legion, all briefly mentioned in the early days but never talked about, no novels, no transfers, hell the Rainbow Warriors are never mentioned anymore :D

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I often wonder if what GW want chaos to be is different to what it's fans want it to be. It does look like what GW _want_ chaos marines to be is more warbands with more unique stuff that isnt variants of imperial stuff, where as the fans seem to want a harder focus on the Legions. personally I dont think it would kill them to make like for example a thousand sons mini-dex with a grey-knights style plastic kit that makes a bunch of units.

[Charon]

There is actually no problem with the focus on warbands if they just had something which makes warband A operating different from warband B.
We had this in 3.5 (Lots of infiltrators on alpha legion, more fast assault on nightlords, imperial tanks on iron warriors, cult terminators on the "big 4",..) but nowadays its like they decided to take it away, give no replacement and instead give it to the loyalists (which already have codices dedicated to specific chapters). Ppl are quite sick of Codex: Cultists and Dragons and that rightly so.
Marks dont cut it. A CSM with mark of tzeentch is no Thousand son. It is a CSM with mark of tzeentch (not dusted and no psyker). A terminator with mark of khorne is no Berzerker in Terminator armor. Its a Terminator with mark of khorne.

[This Dave]

I want to update my playing as any legion you want with the Chaos Space Marine codex. It is more accurate to play any "loyalist" codex as Alpha Legion as there are no loyalist marines, only Alpha Legion infiltrators unaware of each other's efforts.

Hey, the Alpha Legion IS loyal. Just to the Emperor not the Imperium. Their battle cry is "For the Emperor!" After all.

[This Dave]

But how many know about the Rainbow Warriors, The Marines Errent, the Mentors, The Raptor Legion, all briefly mentioned in the early days but never talked about, no novels, no transfers, hell the Rainbow Warriors are never mentioned anymore :D

I have some Mentor transfers GW put out a couple years ago. And the last SM codex pretty much eliminated the Rainbow Warriors. Marines Errant was in the FW Badab Wars books I believe. I have all of them in my Deathwatch army. :)

[daboarder]

The Rainbow warriors are mentioned in the current SM codex

[Surcermark]

Sir, check the rule again. "Daemons can only join units that are composed entirely of daemons of the same ALIGNMENT as themselves..." : )

Heralds can join daemons in the chaos space marine codex that simply have marks, so long as the Mark is of the same alignment. However, there is only one instance, at this moment officially, which is good...

[daboarder]

Sir, check the rule again. "Daemons can only joined units that are composed entirely of daemons of the same ALIGNMENT as themselves..." : )

Heralds can join daemons in the chaos space marine codex that simply have marks, so long as the Mark is of the same alignment. However, there is only one instance, at this moment officially, which is alright...

A model with both the daemon special rule and MoXYZ wargear is not a "Daemon of...."

A daemon of the same alignment is very specifically a unit with the special rule, "Daemon of NURGLE", or "Daemon of TZEENTCH" etc.

The only "daemon of alignment" in the chaos space marine codex is the Daemon prince who is always a single model

[DrBored]

A model with both the daemon special rule and MoXYZ wargear is not a "Daemon of...."

A daemon of the same alignment is very specifically a unit with the special rule, "Daemon of NURGLE", or "Daemon of TZEENTCH" etc.

The only "daemon of alignment" in the chaos space marine codex is the Daemon prince who is always a single model

This. It's one of the greatest travesties of the alliance between the two Codices.

If you could join the IC's together, you could make some really ganky stuff.

[Surcermark]

This. It's one of the greatest travesties of the alliance between the two Codices.

If you could join the IC's together, you could make some really ganky stuff.

Sadly, no, even with the leniency that I read into the rule, claiming that "alignment" is vague, the combos suck or are to expensive to do. However, I will admit that I have overlooked a very simplistic flaw in my argument, that the title of the rule section is "daemonic alignment." Btw, the chaos space marine daemon prince does not have this rule, he just has the same exact upgrade without the rule title. GW really hates chaos...

[Darren Richardson]

I have some Mentor transfers GW put out a couple years ago. And the last SM codex pretty much eliminated the Rainbow Warriors. Marines Errant was in the FW Badab Wars books I believe. I have all of them in my Deathwatch army. :)

Good on you to give such lamented chapters some love.

Spread the love baby!

[Haighus]

Good on you to give such lamented chapters some love.

Spread the love baby!
You may be pleased to hear that FW has produced quite a few unique Chapter tactics for more obscure Chapters, which are free to download on their website. The Raptors and I think the Marines Errant are included in this. I will add that about half of the Chapters mentioned are "Marines Errant use Chapter Tactics:Ultramarines" but quite a few are unique or modified versions of their parent Chapter Tactics (like the Raptors have a similar, but slightly different version of the Raven Guard tactics). FW still love other Chapters ;)

[DWest]

So the thought occurred to me, what might be the root cause of the current problem with Chaos. We (yes, I do play CSM, or at least I will once I finish repainting the ugly plugs) see the CSM as fallen heirs to the glory of the original Legions, and want them to play that way on the tabletop, being elite, ruthless, and gilded to the gills with ancient tech and warp-powered nastiness. GW are currently portraying CSM as cowardly traitorous scum, fighting tooth and nail over enough leavings to stay alive.

But points- and stats-wise CSM are still portrayed as elite. And that leaves us in an uncomfortable middle-ground, where we look like the elite, but don't quite fight like the elite.

[Darren Richardson]

You may be pleased to hear that FW has produced quite a few unique Chapter tactics for more obscure Chapters, which are free to download on their website. The Raptors and I think the Marines Errant are included in this. I will add that about half of the Chapters mentioned are "Marines Errant use Chapter Tactics:Ultramarines" but quite a few are unique or modified versions of their parent Chapter Tactics (like the Raptors have a similar, but slightly different version of the Raven Guard tactics). FW still love other Chapters ;)

Hey I could have sworn I posted a response to this, but the Warp seems to have eaten it :Rolleyes:

Thanks, I already have that downloaded.

I'm also glad FW likes writing and making models about the little Space Marine Guys :D

I'm just not so glad of the £50 prices for their books :(

[Lord-Boofhead]

So the thought occurred to me, what might be the root cause of the current problem with Chaos. We (yes, I do play CSM, or at least I will once I finish repainting the ugly plugs) see the CSM as fallen heirs to the glory of the original Legions, and want them to play that way on the tabletop, being elite, ruthless, and gilded to the gills with ancient tech and warp-powered nastiness. GW are currently portraying CSM as cowardly traitorous scum, fighting tooth and nail over enough leavings to stay alive.

But points- and stats-wise CSM are still portrayed as elite. And that leaves us in an uncomfortable middle-ground, where we look like the elite, but don't quite fight like the elite.

No its a Conspiracy. The Illuminati are behind it!

[wh14sxb]

Sadly, no, even with the leniency that I read into the rule, claiming that "alignment" is vague, the combos suck or are to expensive to do. However, I will admit that I have overlooked a very simplistic flaw in my argument, that the title of the rule section is "daemonic alignment." Btw, the chaos space marine daemon prince does not have this rule, he just has the same exact upgrade without the rule title. GW really hates chaos...

I'm pretty sure it's the "Demonic Instability" that disallows any CSM from attaching to CD. The only real benefit is using the icons to deepstrike off of. Like if you take seekers with an icon you could deep strike a daemon prince of slaanesh within 6" no scatter, because he is daemon AND has same allegiance. If you were to deep strike in Khorne Warptalons they would scatter 1d6" because being daemon gives them a perk, but wrong alignment.

You can't however attach a non daemonic instability guy to a squad of daemonic instability guys. Lame lame how our battle brothers we can't even give brotherly hugs to. Where all other battle brothers are like, "Hey man welcome to our club! Oh feel free to fall in our ranks and go lead my squad buddy!"

[DWest]

No its a Conspiracy. The Illuminati are behind it!
My point (which I probably forgot to properly state in the last post) is I'd be find with my CSM playing like cowardly scum, if they actually did so. Maybe something like Black Templars, where you have 5-10 CSM escorted by 10-20 cannon fodder, er, Cultists, but fewer wargear options.

[Lord-Boofhead]

My point (which I probably forgot to properly state in the last post) is I'd be find with my CSM playing like cowardly scum, if they actually did so. Maybe something like Black Templars, where you have 5-10 CSM escorted by 10-20 cannon fodder, er, Cultists, but fewer wargear options.

No its obvious that the shape shifting reptilians who secretly run GW hate Chaos.

[DWest]

No its obvious that the shape shifting reptilians who secretly run GW hate Chaos.
Bad troll is bad.

[Lord-Boofhead]

Not trolling, mocking the waves of "waaaaah GW didn't give me an I win button and a reach around in the last codex they hate my army" trolls infesting this place....

[Charon]

Soso... the lack of "warband tactics" and the fact that successful CSM armies dont contain CSM is longing for an "I win button"

bias is strong in this troll

[DrBored]

Not trolling, mocking the waves of "waaaaah GW didn't give me an I win button and a reach around in the last codex they hate my army" trolls infesting this place....

So you're trying to troll the trolls? Sounds like trolling.

[Eldar_Atog]

Not trolling, mocking the waves of "waaaaah GW didn't give me an I win button and a reach around in the last codex they hate my army" trolls infesting this place....

Troll Mocker? Mmm... never heard of a troll mocker before. Sounds like Troll mischief to me.....

[daboarder]

Not trolling, mocking the waves of "waaaaah GW didn't give me an I win button and a reach around in the last codex they hate my army" trolls infesting this place....

you're a charmer boof

hey drbored, man do you and charon remember how much we talked about chaos and what we wanted the other day?

I mean yeah, **** legion warband tactics, or access to knights, what we really should have asked for was a rule that said chaos rocks: if your opponent is a chaos player they win, if you are a chaos player, you both win.

That would really fix the chaos codex, I like Boofheads ideas, he really should apply for GW.:rolleyes:

[daboarder]

New info on the slaughter




All models in the Crimson Slaughter Detachment have Fear.Crimson Slaughter can ally with as Battle Brothers with Chaos Space Marines
Choose one unit of chosen to be upgraded at +10pts. Gain preferred enemy.
Possessed are Troops. Roll a d3 at the start of the CS players turn. 1: Unit and Vehicle if embarked are shrouded 2: Unit type becomes Beast 3: Gain a 3+ invul save and rending

Warlord Traits
1. Warlord and unit gain hate, extra bonus's against Dark Angels
2. All enemy units within 12" of warlord suffer a -2 to fear tests
3. Warlord has Rage and Furious Charge, but must charge attempt to assault if within 12"
4. Warlord and unit gain Crusader
5. Enemy models in base contact with Warlord take d6 S3 ap hits at the beginning of each assault phase
6. Warlord has shrouded

Relics
1. Replaces a powermaul on a Dark Apostle S +2 AP4 Concussive and all CS units in 6" gain Zealot
2. Soul Siphon gains powers based off of enemy models removed in close combat. Effects last the rest of the game 1. +1S 3. AP 2 5. +1S 10. Instant Death
3. Furious charge, Hamer of Wrath and rage
4. Gain Divination and can re-roll failed psychic tests. No Deny the Witch bonus's
5. Cannot be taken by a Daemon Prince. Gains 2+ save and it will not die
6. Gain Daemon, Fearless, and fleet, and gains the Crimson Slaughter possessed mutation-roll a d3.



Holy crap, that div relic gets better and better, who cares about DtW when you can have a Ml3 Div re-rolling powers.

and in other news GW still seems to think fear is actually a decent rule

[Gleipnir]

So what ends up happening if you have a Possessed unit that becomes a Beast and is currently in a building or a vehicle? does it forcibly disembark them since Beasts can't occupy either?

[DarkLink]

A GW game designer gets their wings.

[daboarder]

So what ends up happening if you have a Possessed unit that becomes a Beast and is currently in a building or a vehicle? does it forcibly disembark them since Beasts can't occupy either?

no idea, lets wait for the details. but its one to keep an eye on thats for sure.


A GW game designer gets their wings.


Does a GW game designer die if I say I don't believe in them?

[Gleipnir]

A GW game designer gets their wings.

sometimes you just wanna upvote a forum post

[daboarder]

Ok, just had a lookee at my FLGS, where they had a preview copy out.
My own copy has now been ordered.

For the possessed, the 3++ result also gives rending, the others are the same as rumored, so a slight nerf to offense.
There's no restriction on Marks, but only Cult troops are allowed to buy VotLW (there some fluff about cult warbands just showing up to tag along as they start getting a good rep among traitors. ) As far as I could tell there isn't any restriction on characters.
The chosen upgrade specifically upgrades the chosen champ to have Preferred enemy, so it can be sniped out, which is the reason it is so cheap.
No relic is over 30 pts. The divination one gives divination and the spell familiar benefit for only 10 pts more than a familiar.
Kranon is just listed as being equiped with the 3 relics, but is not a special character beyond that.

More info looking even better than before.

and krannon has FINALLY killed the relic limit argument

[Gleipnir]

More info looking even better than before.

and krannon has FINALLY killed the relic limit argument

I always thought the relic limit per model had more to do with Army builders not including the option and thus everyone convinced it must be so than any rule that actually restricted it.

[DarkLink]

Some of the books were also vaguely worded.

[Charon]

I already wondered why the main codex gives so much redundant powers (hatred mainly) and now you get a relic that gives you nearly the exact same rules as a warlord trait...

[DrBored]

I already wondered why the main codex gives so much redundant powers (hatred mainly) and now you get a relic that gives you nearly the exact same rules as a warlord trait...

It actually can help spread the love to your other non-warlord hqs. Redundant maybe, but it could help you get more of the same buffs overall shich helps synergy.

[Charon]

But you cant rely on it. So either you want the rules on 2 ppl and end up getting them only on one or you want them on your WL and maybe end up getting it two times (where the trait forces you to attack even if its unlikely to reach your target)

[Lord-Boofhead]

you're a charmer boof

hey drbored, man do you and charon remember how much we talked about chaos and what we wanted the other day?

I mean yeah, **** legion warband tactics, or access to knights, what we really should have asked for was a rule that said chaos rocks: if your opponent is a chaos player they win, if you are a chaos player, you both win.

That would really fix the chaos codex, I like Boofheads ideas, he really should apply for GW.:rolleyes:

Or you could you know try to win with what you got?

We aren't ever going to get the 2nd or 4th ed Codexes back just be fracking grateful we don't have the 3rd ed waste of space back.

[Charon]

What you mean is 3.5 as 4th was nearly the same waste as 3rd... and what we got? The unwanted child of 3rd and 4th :D

[dubhgilla]

Does it have the God awful, chaos gifts table?

[Lord-Boofhead]

What you mean is 3.5 as 4th was nearly the same waste as 3rd... and what we got? The unwanted child of 3rd and 4th :D

I'd rate it Higher than both of those.

You don't like the eye of the Gods tables? and the chance to turn into a Demon Prince mid battle? Meh we've had that in WFB for 2 army books.. We loved it, you guys screamed waaagh waaagh we need our hands held random tables is the scary.

Suck it up if random chance isn't your thing Chaos may not be your army.