New Helbrutes and Crimson Slaughter Codex

[Lord-Boofhead]

Also I'd argue that this book owe More to the 2nd Ed book and the RT era Realms of Chaos books.

You know books from back when the game was fun not all the serious business we are playing for sheep stations crap.

[Lord-Boofhead]

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/faq.php?faq=termsmaster#faq_termsuse

No that Word Bearer army of mine is imaginary. Oh wait its not. And ok sure the table isn't as cool as the WFB one but I'd not go as far as 'not worth rolling on'' yeah all those in game buffs and stat increases must be annoying?

If I'm an a-hole I'm driven to it by the screaming crybaby who hate change and won't adapt.

[Charon]

You don't like the eye of the Gods tables? and the chance to turn into a Demon Prince mid battle?

To be honest, no. I dislike getting transformed into a weaker model without any equipment and without previously rolled gifts.

[Deadlift]

Wow your an A-hole aren't you?

WFB eye of the Gods tables is worth rolling on. Have you never played the 40k version?

Depends how you read his posts, frank and direct with a touch of sarcasm. No worse than many others on here. It's actually quite nice reading positive Chaos marine comments once in a while :D

[ToHitMod]

To be honest, no. I dislike getting transformed into a weaker model without any equipment and without previously rolled gifts.

Then maybe you shouldn't displease the fickle Gods you claim to serve?

[DWest]

Then maybe you shouldn't displease the fickle Gods you claim to serve?
That would work great as an argument in a roleplaying game, and probably make for a pretty fun session (depending on how evil your sense of "fun" is), but it stinks like old Nurglings when it happens on the tabletop. Becoming a Daemon Prince should be a buff, but it's really not, considering that 1) if you don't have the spare model with you, then you just lose the champion, end of story and 2) he doesn't get any wargear, so he can't really do any of the things you'd use a Prince to do, and 3) he's kicked out of combat by the transformation, which means he's an instant bullet magnet. So basically, the "best" result on the table reads "your guy dies, unless this happens in the exact right place at the exact right time".

[ToHitMod]

That would work great as an argument in a roleplaying game, and probably make for a pretty fun session (depending on how evil your sense of "fun" is), but it stinks like old Nurglings when it happens on the tabletop. Becoming a Daemon Prince should be a buff, but it's really not, considering that 1) if you don't have the spare model with you, then you just lose the champion, end of story and 2) he doesn't get any wargear, so he can't really do any of the things you'd use a Prince to do, and 3) he's kicked out of combat by the transformation, which means he's an instant bullet magnet. So basically, the "best" result on the table reads "your guy dies, unless this happens in the exact right place at the exact right time".

40K is a roleplaying game. Its a narrative wargame, you're playing the role of the commander of your army, the rules are there to represent the story unfolding, the champion of Chaos was turned into a Daemon Prince by his caprisious Gods, the thing he strove for for hundreds of years of service in Their names, and yet, when he finally got his desire, it was at the most innopurtune moment, the Gods have a sense of humour after all.

[marful]

40K is a roleplaying game. Its a narrative wargame, you're playing the role of the commander of your army, the rules are there to represent the story unfolding, the champion of Chaos was turned into a Daemon Prince by his caprisious Gods, the thing he strove for for hundreds of years of service in Their names, and yet, when he finally got his desire, it was at the most innopurtune moment, the Gods have a sense of humour after all.
Citation please.

[Mr Mystery]

GW themselves.

Narrative game is narrative, hence why when people try to bend it into a competitive game, it doesn't work that well.

[Charon]

The game becames competitive by its basic ruleset which places 2 players in competition (instead of cooperation) awards victory points and announces a winner.
Its in the human nature that both players want equal chances and thus a balanced ruleset with balanced factions.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

40K is a roleplaying game. Its a narrative wargame, you're playing the role of the commander of your army, the rules are there to represent the story unfolding, the champion of Chaos was turned into a Daemon Prince by his caprisious Gods, the thing he strove for for hundreds of years of service in Their names, and yet, when he finally got his desire, it was at the most innopurtune moment, the Gods have a sense of humour after all.Then by that logic, why not have the Imperial Guard have to roll on a "Departmento Munitorium screw-up" Table before each game, to determine which units don't have ammo, or are totally unsuited for the battle, etc? That's happened in the fluff more often than a Daemon Prince ascending, then dying before it even gets the chance to fight back.

[bfmusashi]

That's totally my excuse for having never fielded a truly competitive Guard force :p

[DarkLink]

Hence why there's a thriving tournament scene despite how terribly written the rules are and how GW gives basically zero community support outside their small sphere of influence within the UK itself.

[DrBored]

The game becames competitive by its basic ruleset which places 2 players in competition (instead of cooperation) awards victory points and announces a winner.
Its in the human nature that both players want equal chances and thus a balanced ruleset with balanced factions.

Actually...
http://proutglobe.org/2012/10/is-human-nature-competitive-or-cooperative/

That's up for debate.

[DarkLink]

That's not really relevant to what he was saying. In a game that specifically pits two players against each other, like 40k, it is a competitive game by definition. Two people trying to beat one another at something is quite literally the definition of competition. In fact, the very nature of games themselves means that you're always going to be competing with something or someone, even if it's just a GM or something as opposed to a direct opponent.

Regardless, it is a competitive game. It's also a sloppily written game. That's a problem with the overall quality of the game, however, not something that magically makes it impossible to play competitively. Balance and well written rules improves the quality of the game for everyone, casual or competitive.

Moreover, it's pretty freakin' arrogant to assume that because you prefer to play the game a particular way, everyone should play it that way. I have no problem with people playing casual games, yet people like ToHitMod (and to a lesser extent people like Mr. Mystery) talk down on anyone who plays it the way that nets them the most fun. You could at least have the balls to fly out to California to say that to my face.

Play the game the way you want to play it, and don't be a judgmental douchebag to people who prefer a different style of gameplay.

[DrBored]

That's not really relevant to what he was saying. In a game that specifically pits two players against each other, like 40k, it is a competitive game by definition. Two people trying to beat one another at something is quite literally the definition of competition. In fact, the very nature of games themselves means that you're always going to be competing with something or someone, even if it's just a GM or something as opposed to a direct opponent.

Regardless, it is a competitive game. It's also a sloppily written game. That's a problem with the overall quality of the game, however, not something that magically makes it impossible to play competitively. Balance and well written rules improves the quality of the game for everyone, casual or competitive.

Moreover, it's pretty freakin' arrogant to assume that because you prefer to play the game a particular way, everyone should play it that way. I have no problem with people playing casual games, yet people like ToHitMod (and to a lesser extent people like Mr. Mystery) talk down on anyone who plays it the way that nets them the most fun. You could at least have the balls to fly out to California to say that to my face.

Play the game the way you want to play it, and don't be a judgmental douchebag to people who prefer a different style of gameplay.

Fair enough, and I do agree with the rest.

It's all too easy to get wrapped up in the arguments of the Internet. I myself do look down on WAAC players. Yep, I do. Not a thing I can easily rectify within myself. I find such intense and extreme competition....disappointing. It's why I don't like Magic the Gathering and other games like it; in the end, a few netlists or decks win over others because they're more point-and-click than the other, or have weird janky combos that shouldn't work that way.

Casual is the way to go for me, so I don't mind that GW doesn't have a FAQ for every little rule that WAAC gamers want to bend. I figure it out at my FLGS and we make that the house-way of interpreting it unless irrevocably proven otherwise. In my opinion, GW has created a great casual game, with lots of INCREDIBLE lore and FANTASTIC models across the board, not to mention GREAT opportunities for conversion and artistic expression across a force. Those are the things I appreciate out of it.

If you're looking for extreme competition with balance and well-written rules, go play Chess or something.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm not talking down to anyone matey.

40k is written as a narrative game, where the 'rule of cool' is arguably more important that precisely how far I may have moved my tank, and whether or not it's 1mm inside or outside your range.

A straight up competitive game doesn't have that narrative angle, like the much abused and by no means strictly accurate Chess comparison.

If a tournament is a misnomer, and the event is just a way of bringing players together to get a bunch of games in, then I'm all for it.

But, if it's meant as an actual competition, with prizes, unfortunately a slice of gamers take it all too far, and act like it some high stake international poker final with hundreds of thousands of insert your local currency here to be won or lost. At that point the competition becomes the entire point of the game, and it's simply not designed for that.

For another not-great analogy, it's like comparing the performance of a family car to an F1. Yes, you can indeed race those family cars around an F1 circuit. And that's fine. But the second you start comparing the car to an F1 racing car, you've just picked a really daft fight.

[DarkLink]

You're not insulting in any way, no, that's what separates you from trolls like ToHitMod. You do have a bit of an air about you like "What ho? Competitive gaming? What nonsense, tut-tut". Quoted verbatim;).

[Mr Mystery]

Sounds like me :p

[DWest]

Casual is the way to go for me, so I don't mind that GW doesn't have a FAQ for every little rule that WAAC gamers want to bend. I figure it out at my FLGS and we make that the house-way of interpreting it unless irrevocably proven otherwise. In my opinion, GW has created a great casual game, with lots of INCREDIBLE lore and FANTASTIC models across the board, not to mention GREAT opportunities for conversion and artistic expression across a force. Those are the things I appreciate out of it.
Here's the problem; not everybody's FLGS works that way. In an actual RPG, you can do "house rules" easily, because you have one person who holds distinct authority, the GM, who can enforce the interpretation. The 40k tournament scene has operated a similar way in the past, but they don't always address rules conundrums, and not everybody is willing to take a TO's word as gospel outside of that specific tourney.

Furthermore, badly written rules are bad for the game, no matter what the game is. Take Dungeons and Dragons, for an example; in the 3rd/3.5 ruleset, spellcasters were better than melee combatants by a wide margin. Now, in theory D&D isn't a competitive game, but even in a cooperative setting it becomes very unpleasant to come to the realization that you picked the "wrong" class.

To apply a bludgeoning weapon to a deceased equine, look at the Burning Chariot of Tzeentch; the rules as written in the Codex make the thing almost entirely useless (it's an open-topped fast skimmer, 10/10/10 & 2 HP, with short-ranged weapons that can't be fired if it moved even 1"). Now, anybody who looks at the points cost and weapons of the thing "knows" that it should be able to move and shoot, but in order for it to be useful, first you need to determine a reasonable interpretation of how the rules *should* work, and then get your opponents to agree to use it. Depending on your army of choice, running through the checklist of rules interpretations could end up taking longer than playing the game.

[Eldar_Atog]

Casual is the way to go for me, so I don't mind that GW doesn't have a FAQ for every little rule that WAAC gamers want to bend. I figure it out at my FLGS and we make that the house-way of interpreting it unless irrevocably proven otherwise. In my opinion, GW has created a great casual game, with lots of INCREDIBLE lore and FANTASTIC models across the board, not to mention GREAT opportunities for conversion and artistic expression across a force. Those are the things I appreciate out of it.


I'm also a casual gamer but I like having a good set of FAQ's on hand. It stops most of the drama and nerd rage. While WAAC players might show up at touranments with a little more regularity, they can appear in casual games too. I've seen plenty of nerd rages over the silliest things in 40K games.

A better rule set would be a good thing for both touranment players and casuals. Less arguments, less hurt feelings, less nerd rage. There's been many a time when I have left to do a food run after a rule discussion started. I usually get back 30 minutes later and the argument is still going. A good FAQ would stop a lot of that kind of drama.

[Mr Mystery]

I've always found a knob end of an opponent will be a knob end regardless of the rules.

Take Monopoly. I've seen people throw a proper wobbler because they've missed out on snapping up Park Lane and Mayfair, and a fellow player refuses to sell to them. Board flipped, screaming abdabs, the lot.

[Eldar_Atog]

I've always found a knob end of an opponent will be a knob end regardless of the rules.

Take Monopoly. I've seen people throw a proper wobbler because they've missed out on snapping up Park Lane and Mayfair, and a fellow player refuses to sell to them. Board flipped, screaming abdabs, the lot.

My experience has been a little mixed. There are people that I will never play any game against. Then there are people I will play a game with if I know the game has less wiggle room on the rules. Usually the latter are people that just lack good social skills. If you give them a rule set that is clear, you can enjoy the game.

[daboarder]

Depends how you read his posts, frank and direct with a touch of sarcasm. No worse than many others on here. It's actually quite nice reading positive Chaos marine comments once in a while :D

while I can understand the CSM point, boofhead is still just a dick

see the vanguard slate for nids discussion.

[daboarder]

Hellbrute Dataslate up for pre-order (http://www.blacklibrary.com/games-workshop-digital-editions/Dataslate-Helbrutes.html). $4.99

3 dataslates

one formation: Helcult (Cultists and Brute)

one formation: Mayhem Pack (Teleporting brutes)

One unknown

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Images/Product/DefaultBL/xlarge/eBook_40K_Dataslate_FC_Hellbrute.jpg
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Images/Product/AlternativeBL/xlarge/2014-03-13%2010.16.14.png
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Images/Product/AlternativeBL/xlarge/2014-03-13%2010.16.20.png

[DarkLink]

Wait... am I actually kind of excited for a CSM release?

[daboarder]

breath Darklink, just breath!

[Mr Mystery]

Looks pretty cool!

[Clockwork]

For the interested I covered the entirety of the Supplement: http://www.talkwargaming.com/2014/03/new-release-codex-supplement-crimson.html

Honestly it has me interested in CSM again for the first time in a while. I'm honestly really digging the thing. I just haven't committed my soul to the whispering voices of Chaos just yet.

[daboarder]

Third Formation Known

Helfist murderpack (because whats more over the top than that name)
honestly no idea, sounds like either a formation with a venerable leader (??) something that lets the brutes not rage (choose your rage result would be AWESOME!)


https://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3840469a_5xl.jpg
http://a1.mzstatic.com/us/r30/Publication6/v4/7b/8e/ca/7b8eca4f-9e88-538e-792b-fb5965354571/2014-03-13_10.16.36.480x480-75.jpg

[DrBored]

Wait.

Helbrutes Teleporting into battle behind enemy lines?

Deepstriking Helbrutes?

Multiple Deepstriking Helbrutes?

With Multi-Meltas or Heavy Flamers?

YES PLEASE, ABOUT TIME

[daboarder]

Wait.

Helbrutes Teleporting into battle behind enemy lines?

Deepstriking Helbrutes?

Multiple Deepstriking Helbrutes?

With Multi-Meltas or Heavy Flamers?

YES PLEASE, ABOUT TIME

Breath Dr, we know nothing of ther requirments for this.

But I am considering all these as strong possibilities I will be including dreads in my list again.

coupled with the potential dropping of one of my HQ choices from my list in favour of a palaquinator Sorcerer warlord (seriously 4W, T5 2+/4++ IWND and ML3, Brutality and efficiency) means I will have the points to start looking at them again.

seriously nurgle characters just got all kinds of tough

5 wound T5 chaos lords with 2+/IWND, yes they are a thing!
or the 3 wound T6 Bike lord with 2+/IWND

[DrBored]

Breath Dr, we know nothing of ther requirments for this.

But I am considering all these as strong possibilities I will be including dreads in my list again.

coupled with the potential dropping of one of my HQ choices from my list in favour of a palaquinator Sorcerer warlord (seriously 4W, T5 2+/4++ IWND and ML3, Brutality and efficiency) means I will have the points to start looking at them again.

seriously nurgle characters just got all kinds of tough

5 wound T5 chaos lords with 2+/IWND, yes they are a thing!
or the 3 wound T6 Bike lord with 2+

Still, am very excite.

Also, I prefer to have my Lord on Bike with Mark of Slaanesh so he can join other Slaanesh bikers and get FNP. Giving him FNP + IWND is just... amazing.

[Tomgar]

As someone whose main opponent plays Chaos, I'm overjoyed at these releases. The codex doesn't really allow much variety in builds compared to marines (hell, even my main army, Dark Angels, have more fun builds) so getting something that will boost stuff like Brutes and Chaos Sorcerors is just going to open our games up so much more. Really excited about the prospect of fending off deep-striking melta brutes and hard-as-nails Chaos Lords with +2 armour and IWND.

[Lord-Boofhead]

a palaquinator Sorcerer warlord (seriously 4W, T5 2+/4++ IWND and ML3, Brutality and efficiency)



Pretty sure you can't do that. Its either a mount OR termie armour. Sorry.

[lattd]

One of the new relics is a 2+ iwnd artificer armour so yea super tough chaos characters!

[daboarder]

[
Pretty sure you can't do that. Its either a mount OR termie armour. Sorry.

You should see the 5 wound chaos lord......


brutality....

T5, W5, IWND, 2+/4++, Rage, Hammer or Wrath, Furious Charge, the sword of boosting (so after 3 kills its +1S Ap2)

though I think I'm going to run paired Sorcerers.

The aforementioned palaquinator rolling biomancy (LOL)

and a ML 3 Div sorcerer in termin plate.

[Charon]

Pretty sure you can't do that. Its either a mount OR termie armour. Sorry.

Got the dex. You CAN do it. ITs no termie armor, just a 2+ armor with IWND. You actually can end up with 2+, 4++, FNP, IWND

[daboarder]

Got the dex. You CAN do it. ITs no termie armor, just a 2+ armor with IWND. You actually can end up with 2+, 4++, FNP, IWND

better yet, you can get that with T5+ from the right biomancy rolls.

[DrBored]

better yet, you can get that with T5+ from the right biomancy rolls.

Talk about an awesome fire magnet. At that point, I wouldn't even give him any weapon upgrades. Maybe a Power Axe or something. I'd just talk up how spooky strong he is and put him at the front of everything to see how many shots he can absorb.

[Mr Mystery]

Got the dex. You CAN do it. ITs no termie armor, just a 2+ armor with IWND. You actually can end up with 2+, 4++, FNP, IWND

Breakdown? I'm not doubting, I just want to know what stuff you take to get that 'ard! :)

[daboarder]

Mark of Nurgle (T5)
Palaquin: +2 wounds, +1 Attack
Relic armour: IWND, 2+
Sigil: 4++
ML 3
roll once on Nurgle, then twice on biomancy

Take a force axe and you are a serious contender.

[daboarder]

Talk about an awesome fire magnet. At that point, I wouldn't even give him any weapon upgrades. Maybe a Power Axe or something. I'd just talk up how spooky strong he is and put him at the front of everything to see how many shots he can absorb.
Comes with a force axe alread :D

[Mr Mystery]

Crikey.

[Charon]

Breakdown? I'm not doubting, I just want to know what stuff you take to get that 'ard! :)

Mark of Slaanesh (whatever mount fits you)
Relic Armor: 2+, IWND
Sigil: 4++
Unit with Slaanesh banner: FNP

[Lord-Boofhead]

Got the dex. You CAN do it. ITs no termie armor, just a 2+ armor with IWND. You actually can end up with 2+, 4++, FNP, IWND

Cool , had never heard that term and assumed that you were trying to give a guy with Termie Armour a Mount which you can't do. But if you can sorta get the same thing the long way, well carry on then...

[Clockwork]

For the curious, the Helbrute Dataslate is out and I've covered it here (http://www.talkwargaming.com/2014/03/new-release-dataslate-helbrutes.html).

Quick summary: Helcult is the one I think is the most potentially hilarious, the Mayhem Pack is the most potentially useful and the Murderfist is only for die-hard collectors or Helbrute/Chaos Dread Fans due to the model count/cost and points required to run it.

[DarkLink]

Those are actually pretty awesome. I don't think they're optimized, 500+pts is too much to invest in Helbrutes even with the huge buff of getting to pick your Crazed result, the deepstrike doesn't make you a squadron or otherwise really benefit, and even with the 3+ cover one you're still just running a helbrute and cultists up the board, but they're definitely worth considering now.

[Eberk]

I'm already thinking about the best weapon loadout for a "Mayhem Pack". I just want to field that. The look on my opponents face when I drop 3 Hellbrutes behind his back will be priceless.

[daboarder]

I'm already thinking about the best weapon loadout for a "Mayhem Pack". I just want to field that. The look on my opponents face when I drop 3 Hellbrutes behind his back will be priceless.

Multi-melta power fist.

MAYBE a heavy flamer if you have the pts

I plan to mix it up and include a CC loadout on one of my three dreads though, just to switch up the target priority a bit.

[Eberk]

Multi-melta power fist.

MAYBE a heavy flamer if you have the pts

I plan to mix it up and include a CC loadout on one of my three dreads though, just to switch up the target priority a bit.

Multi-melta / power fist is a certainty (I have the Dark Vengeance model)

For the other two I was thinking of a Reaper Autocannon, a Power Fist and Power Scourge because I like the models for them combined with another Multi-melta. A single heavy-flamer should complete the "Mayhem Pack"

[Charon]

Not too sure about these formations... they might look funny (as in clownish) but I'm not really sold on them.
I hopt the fearless rule on the Cult has a range, else this formation will be used with a Brute hiding somewhere back and 2 full tarpit fearless cultist units.
The rest doesnt really adress their issues... the shock formation sounds intersting, but thats quite a few points and im not all to sure about them...

[Clockwork]

The Fearless rule doesn't have a range. Even if it did that wouldn't keep people from using them just as you described there.

It doesn't 100% solve the problem of Helbrutes, but most of that problem is shared with all armies when it comes to walkers, so I can't blame the 'Brutes on this one.

[Charon]

A range of 12" around the brutes would at least keep the brute and cultists together. As it is I can hide the cheapest possible brute somewhere back out of sight and advance with 70 fearless cultists.

The insanity table really hurts them...
Schock them down, want to hit the tank with your precious meltas and end up running into the open.

[Clockwork]

The cover rule is probably the developer's carrot method to do just that, versus the stick method of forcing people to maintain some kind of range.

And if you really want to make the Cultists good, why not advance the Helbrute? If it dies the Cultists get Fearless and Hatred from the Zealot rule, so they lose nothing from moving it across the table with them.

[Charon]

aaaahhhh. you are right!

Confused it with crusader... lost in translation.

[Clockwork]

Yeah, if it was Crusader I really wouldn't have been as excited about the Helcult as I am.