Outflanking transport question???

[karandras]

Is there something specific in the IG codex concerning Valkyrie / Vendettas using outflank and transporting a squad. Specifically, is the transported squad required to have the ability to outflank in order to outflank in a Valkyrie / Vendetta???

Obviously, the Tau Pathfinder entry specifically states that the Pathfinders' scout ability is also bestowed upon their dedicated Devilfish transport. I believe the USR section of the BRB clarifies that a unit with scout does not pass it on to a vehicle or attached character.

The Valkyrie / Vendetta is not a dedicated transport and it is the vehicle itself that has the scout / outflank ability. I would presume the intent of GW is that any unit embarked in them benefit, but do the rules specifically state that anywhere???

Apparently, this came up in a local tournament and nobody could locate a definitive answer. A player had multiple Vendettas with an assortment of transported IG and Daemonhunter units to include attached independent characters embarked. He utilized the scout ability to move 24" before the game began with some units and had others enter via outflank.

p.s. - Merry Christmas!

[BuFFo]

As far as I know, you cannot Outflank with a non dedicated transport and an infantry unit if both units do not posses a way of gaining outflank.

Sticking Demon Hunters in a Valkyrie won't allow the Hunters inside to Outflank unless the Hunter unit itself has Infiltrate or Scout.

Now, you may want to check any Erratas for the 40k rules, DH or IG rules.

[Culven]

The issue is the lack of a rule that states we are to ignore the movement and other special rules for the Embarked unit and only concern ourselves with the rules for the transport. However, this tends to be GaP since I have yet to see anyone try to limit the movement of Transports to the 6" that Infantry are permitted to move. Expounding upon this concept, it is the Vehicle's special rules, such as Scout, Outflank, and Deep Strike, that is considered when determining whether it may do so. So, a Transport with the ability to Outflank may do so regardless of whether the embarked unit has the ability. Another widely used Transport which demonstrates this "use the Vehicle's, ignore the Unit's rules" idea is the Drop Pod. If the embarked unit were required to have the Special rule as well, then Drop Pods would be useless.

[karandras]

I understand the logic of your point of view. However, Drop Pods should not be considered for this argument for one vital reason. The Drop Pod is a dedicated transport and has rules that specifically state that a unit that purchases one as a dedicated transport will enter the battle via Drop Pod assault / Deep Strike. The Valkyrie / Vendetta is unique in that it is not a dedicated transport. It is its own unit entry purchased as a Fast Attack option, but has transport capability.

One point of view to bolster this is that the fluff indicates that they are used primarily by StormTroopers, which can be equipped to Outflank / Deepstike. Of course, running an Al-Rahim platoon also negates the neccessity for the arguement. It seems to me based on the RAW, that the embarked unit and/or IC would need to possess the ability to outflank or scout or infiltrate in order to do so in the vehicle.

[Culven]

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[Culven]

. . . Drop Pods should not be considered for this argument for one vital reason. The Drop Pod is a dedicated transport and has rules that specifically state that a unit that purchases one as a dedicated transport will enter the battle via Drop Pod assault / Deep Strike.
Reading the Drop Pod rules on page 69 of the Space Marine codex, no mention is made of the Embarked unit. The rules only states, "Drop Pods will always enter play using the deep strike rules . . .". Unless we assume that it is the vehilce's rules that define how it may enter play, with the transported unit simply going along for the ride, then only units with Deep Strike could enter play inside a Drop Pod. The fact that the Drop Pod is a Dedicated Transport has no effect on the situation. Dedicated or not, units are assigned to their Transports in Reserves before attempting to enter play. Being a Dedicated Transport will only restrict which unit may be in the Transport.

It seems to me based on the RAW, that the embarked unit and/or IC would need to possess the ability to outflank or scout or infiltrate in order to do so in the vehicle.
Which rules lead you to this conculsion?

[Jwolf]

I don't find the rules that support the Valkyrie not being able to Outflank, regardless of the unit(s) it is carrying. The unit inside is generally ignored, both by long-standing GaP and necessity of function, as Culven explains.

[BuFFo]

Jwolf put it best.

I change my position. For the game to work smoothly, yeah, units inside an outflanking transport can outflank along with the transport. Now that I think about it, if you couldn't, you couldn't outflank units made to ride inside these transports.

[DarkLink]

I agree with Jwolf as well. Same situation as Scout moves. The unit inside is just along for the ride.

[karandras]

Thank you for all of the constructive debate fellow 40k fanatics! Please allow me first restate the fact that I am not anti-guard or anti-valkyrie. I play guard myself.

However, nowhere in the rules for the Valkyrie/Vendetta in the IG codex does it specifically state that the vehicle squadron may utilize its scout or deep strike or outflank ability even if transporting a unit without that ability.

Reverting then to the USR section of the BSB, it does specifically state that the Scout and Infiltrate abilities (which both permit outflank) are lost by a unit if it is joined by an IC (e.g. - another unit) that does not have the same ability. Furthermore, it states that an IC with the Scout and/or Infiltrate ability will lose this ability if joined to a squad (e.g. - another unit) that does not have the same ability.

The only addendum to this is that if a unit with the Scout USR selects a DEDICATED TRANSPORT which then takes up the same FOC slot, they bestow Scout to the DEDICATED TRANSPORT.

It also states that units that Outflank may choose to do so in their DEDICATED TRANSPORT, but that this must be declared during deplyment.

The key here again, is that the Valkyrie/Vendetta is not a DEDICATED TRANSPORT. It is a seperate UNIT and uses up it's own slot on the FOC. While it may be easy to draw some parallel to Drop Pod interaction in this argument, I feel that is fundamentally flawed for two major reasons. First and foremost, the Drop Pod is a Dedicated Transport and does not use up it's own FOC slot. Thus, the SM codex already dictates which units can and cannot benefit from it (granted, it's almost every unit!). Secondly, Drop Pods use Deep Strike. Deep Strike is not a USR and certainly not an "astericked" USR like Scout and Infiltrate, which happen to be the two specific USR that permit Outflank.

What we are left with is a decision to interpret the intent of the desired use of the Valkyrie/Vendetta. Why give them a transport capacity if they would lose their ability to Scout and or Outflank by transporting a unit without that ability? It is easy to cop out and permit it, but it would appear per the USR section of the BSB to be in violation of the USR. However, placing Stormtroopers in the Valkyrie/Vendetta suddenly makes it legal. Stormtroopers would suddenly offer a reason to be taken over Veterans if a player wanted to Outflank or Scout with Valkyrie/Vendettas. Also, as I pointed out earlier, this makes Al'Rahim an even more appealing option.

This sort of ambiguity is nothing new to the hobby and per the most important rule can generally be decided by a roll off if not agreed upon. However, if an IG player built their list and subsequently their tactics with a heavy emphasis on Valkyrie/Vendettas being able to Scout and Outflank their basic units into position, suddenly their army is broken before the game begins. This situation potentially may not result in a friendly dice off, but rather a heated argument.

I am curious why all of you are choosing to ignore the USR "astricked" rules in the BSB so quickly.

[karandras]

One more quick tidbit from the deployment section of the BSB. It specifically states under the outflank rules that "UNITS" with Scout or Infiltrate ability may declare to Outflank. If the unit inside of the Valkyrie/Vendetta does not have the USR, why should it suddenly be allowed to ignore this?

[Jwolf]

At the time the BRB was written, no vehicles had the Scouts rule. So the Dedicated Transport bit was very important, as that was the only way to get vehicles outflanking. The whole focus on the language Dedicated Transport is only important if the unit inside the Transport is providing the USR which allows the Outflanking - which is not the case for the Valkyrie.

The Unit: Valkyrie DOES have the Scouts rule, which allows the Unit: Valkyrie to Outflank. If a Chimera full of Veterans able to Infiltrate can Outflank, how could you think a Valkyrie loaded with the same Veterans would be unable to do so?

Regardless, the Valkyrie can Outflank, we only roll for the unit entering play, which is the Valkyrie, and the passengers are along for the ride.

[Aegis]

Considering both Karandras and Jwolf's comments, and using the logic brought forth regarding units bestowing scout and outflank, it could stand to reason that the RAI of Valkyries/Vendettas act the same way. This meaning that as a unit with scout would bestow the rule upon its dedicated transport, perhaps the transport (Valkyrie) bestows it upon the embarked unit. Almost like a reverse dedicated transport. A dedicated cargo, if you will...

[DarkLink]

Thank you for all of the constructive debate fellow 40k fanatics! Please allow me first restate the fact that I am not anti-guard or anti-valkyrie. I play guard myself.

However, nowhere in the rules for the Valkyrie/Vendetta in the IG codex does it specifically state that the vehicle squadron may utilize its scout or deep strike or outflank ability even if transporting a unit without that ability.

Reverting then to the USR section of the BSB, it does specifically state that the Scout and Infiltrate abilities (which both permit outflank) are lost by a unit if it is joined by an IC (e.g. - another unit) that does not have the same ability. Furthermore, it states that an IC with the Scout and/or Infiltrate ability will lose this ability if joined to a squad (e.g. - another unit) that does not have the same ability.

The only addendum to this is that if a unit with the Scout USR selects a DEDICATED TRANSPORT which then takes up the same FOC slot, they bestow Scout to the DEDICATED TRANSPORT.

It also states that units that Outflank may choose to do so in their DEDICATED TRANSPORT, but that this must be declared during deplyment.


None of this has anything to do with Vendettas outflanking with a unit in it. This is not a case where a unit confers Scout onto the Vehicle.


The key here again, is that the Valkyrie/Vendetta is not a DEDICATED TRANSPORT. It is a seperate UNIT and uses up it's own slot on the FOC. While it may be easy to draw some parallel to Drop Pod interaction in this argument, I feel that is fundamentally flawed for two major reasons. First and foremost, the Drop Pod is a Dedicated Transport and does not use up it's own FOC slot. Thus, the SM codex already dictates which units can and cannot benefit from it (granted, it's almost every unit!). Secondly, Drop Pods use Deep Strike. Deep Strike is not a USR and certainly not an "astericked" USR like Scout and Infiltrate, which happen to be the two specific USR that permit Outflank.

I am curious why all of you are choosing to ignore the USR "astricked" rules in the BSB so quickly.

You're overthinking this. It's simple, really.

When you deploy, you declare what units are in reserve, and if you are going to stick a unit in a transport.

Now, if a unit has scouts or infiltrate, they can decide to come into reserves via outflank. Nothing in the BRB indicates that putting a unit inside a vehicle causes the vehicle to loose the scout/infiltrate rule. As such, if you put a unit in reserves and stick it inside a vehicle with the scout rule, there is nothing that prevents the vehicle from outflanking.

Now, your points about the asterisks are irrelevant. The asterisks dictate what rules are retained/lost when an IC joins the unit. This has nothing to do with IC's. The asterisks, as a result, don't matter in any way shape or form.

[weeble1000]

Jwolf's interpretation of the rules is correct and very simple. Embarked units aren't rolled for when entering play from reserves. This is why it is important for a unit with Scout to confer that ability on a dedicated transport in which it is embarked. The transport is rolled for, so for it to outflank it needs to have the Scout USR.

The Valk/Vendetta has the Scout USR, so it can outflank from reserve. Any embarked units, as Jwolf says, are "along for the ride."

As far as I understand, this isn't a case of ambiguous wording or illogical rules. The rules function in this way without requiring any creative interpretation of rules as intended. This is perhaps why a transport vehicle with Scout required no special explanation in the IG codex or FAQ.

[karandras]

Well I guess I am over thinking it, but when I was called on it by another player at a tournament, I could not find anything in the rulebook saying that I could. So I didn't.

Darklink - I felt the examples were relevant because they showed that a unit with a certain ability would lose that ability when joined by a unit without the ability.

If 10 SM Scouts lost their ability to Scout / Infiltrate / Outflank when a lone Chaplain joins them, why would a Valkyrie/Vendetta not lose its ability to Scout / Outflank if transporting Straken, his command squad, a couple of advisors, 2 bodyguards, and Commisar Yarrick? (An extreme and unfluffy example I know, but exactly the kind of abuse your view permits).

It also illustrated that while the BRB clarified that a unit with the ability to Scout could bestow that on a Dedicated Transport, they could not bestow it on any other vehicle that takes up its own FOC, such as a Land Raider. The Valkyrie/Vendetta takes up its own FOC slot.

Jwolf - You stated that when the BRB was written there were no vehicles with Scout rule, but there were. Dark Angels Ravenwing and Tau Pathfinder Devilfish to name at least two. Also, when can a Chimera outflank with a squad of veterans? IG veterans do not infiltrate or outflank to my knowledge.

I think Valkyrie/Vendettas are cool and mobile IG is a lot more fun to play than a gunline.

The BRB specifically states under the outflank rules that "UNITS" with Scout or Infiltrate ability may declare to Outflank. That is clear.

I understand that you are all in agreement that the unit inside of the Valkyrie/Vendetta is just "along for the ride", but this is not stated in the rules . When my opponent called me on it at the tornament, I was not permitted to do it based on the rules. At least, I know the judges will rule in my favor at BolsCon!!!

[Jwolf]

Sgt. Harker would like to have a word with you, Karandras.

Sorry, I meant "no non-dedicated transport vehicles." I often don't consider unrelated materials when discussing situations, so Ravenwing Speeders, having no transport capacity, and Pathfinder Devilfish, being Dedicated Transports, were not on my list of "vehicles" to consider.

[The Mystic]

One similiar unit to consider would be a Land speeder storm.

It to is not purchased as a dedicated transport but has the deep strike rule yet can transport scouts which do not have the deep strike rules.

Would this prevent the LSS deep striking if it was loaded with scouts?

Personally, I would say no it does'nt.

[DarkLink]

Darklink - I felt the examples were relevant because they showed that a unit with a certain ability would lose that ability when joined by a unit without the ability.

I think Valkyrie/Vendettas are cool and mobile IG is a lot more fun to play than a gunline.

The BRB specifically states under the outflank rules that "UNITS" with Scout or Infiltrate ability may declare to Outflank. That is clear.

I understand that you are all in agreement that the unit inside of the Valkyrie/Vendetta is just "along for the ride", but this is not stated in the rules . When my opponent called me on it at the tornament, I was not permitted to do it based on the rules. At least, I know the judges will rule in my favor at BolsCon!!!

One of the Special Characters in the IG 'dex lets units outflank, and I think you can stick parts of the unit in Chimeras. Or something like that/shrug/.

The asterisks have to do with IC's joining or leaving units. This may or may not carry over to units embarking in transports, the rules don't say. So I'm thinking they don't apply.

Bummer about it at the tournament. I think this is a case where it would by default be legal, unless you can find a rule that disallows it (e.g. a rule that causes the Valkyrie to loose scout when the unit embarks). I think disallowing it because they couldn't find a specific rule allowing it was a bad call on the judge's part. Hope you did well anyways:D.

[karandras]

It didn't affect me too bad. I finished second overall. I only had one Vendetta that was transporting a squad of 10 Veteran Grenadiers with 2 Melta Guns and a Flamer. I have a Cobra themed Guard army that I do okay with. I usually run a pretty generic army.

The tournament ruling had more to do with another player's army that was IG allied with Daemonhunters. I was sort of the collateral damage. He apparently had something like 5 Vendettas. He was deploying 3 and outflanking a squadron of 2. The three he deployed contained a Grey Knight special weapon squads with incinerators, a Grey Knight troop squad, and a decked out Straken HQ in the other. The 2 that were outflanking both contained smaller Grey Knight troop squads. It was kind of a cheese build and his opponent called him on the 24" scout moves and the outflank as Grey Knight units do not have the Scout USR. I felt kind of bad for the judge. It was not a good hobby moment!!!

[karandras]

Mystic - nice point on the Land Speeder Storm entry.

Once again though, Deep Strike is not a USR. It is a mission special rule and not astericked, so there is no basis for the argument... although, I see the logic in the comparison.

The crux of the argument for those opposed can be summed up in reading the opening sentence of the Outflank rule. It states verbatem that units that have the Scout or Infiltrate USR may outflank. The Valkyrie/Vendetta entry in the IG codex does not specify anything different in regards to embarked units.

So, if the unit inside of the Valkyrie/Vendetta does not have the Scout or Infiltrate USR why should it be permitted to outflank?

I am sure if and when GW FAQs this, they would agree with Jwolf and Co.'s opinion as the opposite ruling would make the $60 Valkyrie kit a little less appealing to perspective buyers. They really should kick out the FAQ though, because in the meantime it's kind of a tautological argument for tournament players.

[Melissia]

I have a simple answer for that question, karandras:

The unit riding in the valkyrie is not doing the outflank maneuver. The valkyrie is.

Yes, the transported unit benefits from the maneuver, but it is not the one performing it.

[weeble1000]

The unit riding in the valkyrie is not doing the outflank maneuver. The valkyrie is.

Exactly. This is what "along for the ride" is getting at.

Embarked units have no impact on reserves. Once a unit is embarked in a transport and that transport is put in reserves, the embarked unit is a non-issue unless a rule says otherwise, which is the case with the Scout USR and dedicated transports.

An implicit meaning of the dedicated transport rule is that it is an exception from the norm. A transport without Scout cannot outflank from reserves except when it is the dedicated transport of a unit that has Scout. A transport with Scout can outflank from reserves, like any other unit with Scout, and there is no rule stating this ability is lost when a unit without Scout is embarked.

An embarked unit does not "join" the transport's unit, and so the rule regarding ICs joining units with Scout has no bearing.

I think Jwolf's point is that the BRB does not specifically address this issue because there were no extant units with both Scout and transport capacity at the time the book was written. However, any official verbage addressing this issue would either be a clarification of the extant rules, or a new rule specifically stating a unit with both Scout and transport capacity loses the Scout USR when a unit without Scout is embarked.

I really don't think any clarification is needed on this issue. The Valk has Scout and embarked units do not remove that ability. The unit/model has more than enough sticky rules issues to go around; this is not one of them.

[Sarigar]

An interesting debate, but it appears it is based on a 'rule as intended'. While I completely agree that the rules are very clear that a unit inside a vehicle may come in together via Reserves, I believe there is a bit of a leap stating they can also do so via Outflank. I guess I don't see Reserve = Outflank, but I could be wrong.

On a bit of a different note, how do you all rule when it comes to Ghazgkull attaching to Snikrot/Kommandos and they all are in Reserve together and enter play via Ambush? The reason I ask is it appears it is another situation that is partially addressed in the rulebook (IE: attaching ICs to units being held in Reserve), but one unit having a special ability (albeit not a USR) while another does not.

[Melissia]

Ghaz is an independant character joining a unit.

A unit within in a transport is not joining the transport.


While not apples and oranges, they're certainly lemons and limes-- similar perhaps, but still distinct.

[Nabterayl]

On a bit of a different note, how do you all rule when it comes to Ghazgkull attaching to Snikrot/Kommandos and they all are in Reserve together and enter play via Ambush? The reason I ask is it appears it is another situation that is partially addressed in the rulebook (IE: attaching ICs to units being held in Reserve), but one unit having a special ability (albeit not a USR) while another does not.

Snikrot is fortunately an easy case. Ambush says that when Snikrot's unit enters from Reserve, it may enter from any table edge. Thus, when Ambush is not a special flavor of Outflanking (although Snikrot's unit, without any ICs attached, can Outflank as well - not that you'd ever want to). It is perfectly clear that an IC can be held with a unit in Reserve as part of that unit, and come on as part of that unit, which is all you need to be able to do for Ambush to apply.

[Culven]

An interesting debate, but it appears it is based on a 'rule as intended'. While I completely agree that the rules are very clear that a unit inside a vehicle may come in together via Reserves, I believe there is a bit of a leap stating they can also do so via Outflank. I guess I don't see Reserve = Outflank, but I could be wrong.
So, how far do you go when limiting what the Transport can do because of the unit Embarked? You clearly believe that the Transport may not Outflank if the Embarked unit is not also permitted to Outflank. How about . . . moving Flat Out, being able to move and fire Heavy Weapons, ignore terrain and models when moving, and so on?

[Sarigar]

I'm not sure I follow your question. If I understand it correctly, I still follow all the appropriate vehicle rules in relation to what you wrote (movement/shooting). There is nothing to indicate the normal vehicle rules are ignored when a vehicle enters from reserve/outflank.

I think the crux of the debate is this: does Outflank equal Reserve? I think they use the same dice mechanics (as does Deep Strike), but have separate rules in regards to where they enter play. These separate rules is what leads me to believe Outflank and Reserves are not interchangable words. Anything can be held in Reserve per the rulebook, not everything can Outflank per the rulebook.

[Culven]

I'm not sure I follow your question. If I understand it correctly, I still follow all the appropriate vehicle rules in relation to what you wrote (movement/shooting). There is nothing to indicate the normal vehicle rules are ignored when a vehicle enters from reserve/outflank.
Well, if you are using the vehicle's rules for everything else, why wouldn't you use them when attempting to Outflank the Valkyrie with an embarked unit that doesn't have Outflank capability?

I think the crux of the debate is this: does Outflank equal Reserve?
Reserves does not equal Outflank. Reserves is the set of rules that allows units to be held back and enter play later. Outflank and Deep Strike are rules that govern special ways of entering play from Reserves. In the end, this doesn't even matter as it isn't the issue to hand. The issue is: Does having an embarked unit without the ability to Outflank prevent the Valkyrie from doing so?

[Sarigar]

From what I've read, people have focussed specificlly on the 'reserves' rules and seem to avoid the first sentence in the Outflank rules. To me, this is where the debate breaks down. I understand the conclusions on both sides of the fence about this ruling. To me, at best it can be considered 'unclear'. And where the rule is unclear, I'm not sure how folks can be so definitive to rule in favor of the the most liberal interpretation. This is what sparked my curiosity on the matter. This debate seems to be another one of those rules that are very contested in which I fail to understand how many folks accept the most advantageous interpretation (other rulings such as Deff Rolla vs. vehicle and Ghaz + Snikrot with Ambush come to mind).

[Melissia]

But it's not unclear, in fact it's very clear.

Honestly, if outflanking valks cannot transport units, then deep striking drop pods also cannot transport units.

[DarkLink]

But it's not unclear, in fact it's very clear.

Honestly, if outflanking valks cannot transport units, then deep striking drop pods also cannot transport units.

I think this sums it up best.

[nojinx]

From what I've read, people have focussed specificlly on the 'reserves' rules and seem to avoid the first sentence in the Outflank rules. To me, this is where the debate breaks down. I understand the conclusions on both sides of the fence about this ruling. To me, at best it can be considered 'unclear'. And where the rule is unclear, I'm not sure how folks can be so definitive to rule in favor of the the most liberal interpretation. This is what sparked my curiosity on the matter. This debate seems to be another one of those rules that are very contested in which I fail to understand how many folks accept the most advantageous interpretation (other rulings such as Deff Rolla vs. vehicle and Ghaz + Snikrot with Ambush come to mind).

Advantageous to who? I hate the bloody Valks!

Main point (so you can skip reading the rest): units do not affect the transports they are embarked upon.

Units may be declared embarked on non-dedicated transports during the deployment phase of the game.
A unit with Scout (or Infiltrate) rule may declare the intention to use the Outflank rule for deployment. A unit with the deepstrike rule may declare the intention to deepstrike. If declared, this cannot be changed later.

If we deploy a Valk/Vendetta and an SoB troop unit such that they will collectively outflank, this would be our process:
1. After deploying the models on the table we wish, we tell our opponent the SoB unit will deploy with reserves, and the unit will be embarked on the Valk/Vendetta.
2. We declare the Valk/Vendetta will deploy with reserves using the Outflank rule.

When the reserve roll is successful in bringing the collective unit of Valk/Vendetta with SoB unit to the table, the transport will enter play using that rule. Nothing prevents the transport from entering play with the unit embarked.

The rules seem to work and no conflict arises in the process. I think what we need is to understand an implied rule that exists via conjunction of other rules: Embarked units will gain the benefit of the transport they are embarked in when it comes to movement and deployment because of the nature of transports. A unit embarked on a transport does not inherently affect the transport - it is a state imposed on the unit only. Note that a unit that is embarked is removed from the table - another beneficial state for the unit while be embarked. To the transport, having a unit embarked or not is irrelevant and has no affect how the transport works in the rule system.

It may help to think of transports as movable (usually) locations of entry onto (or exit off of) the table for infantry units (sometimes walkers). They are no more affected by their cargo than a Dark Eldar nexus portal - they are conduits between two states of a unit.

Main point again: units do not affect the transports they are embarked upon.