shadowtyrant
12-24-2009, 05:49 PM
Hi there.
I read the forums for quite some while now, but i never registered. At first, greetings to all^^
and i hope you can forgive me for starting my forum career with this tpoic, but it really bugs me
somehow...
After reading all the rumors, nerfcreep and doomsaying, I decided to take a look at the new tyranidcodex
myself. It is open to pubilc for quite some days now (at least here in Germany; is it true that there are
no previewdexes overseas?). After reading the dex very carefully,some issues kept bothering me...
First of all, I am not a Nidzilla-Player, nor am i afraid of changings (I play 3 different armies since
3rd Ed. and i never complained before). The new dex is not broken; as a matter of fact, it is very
competitive. But the dex itself seems to be poorly designed. It is the worst codex i have ever read,
for several reasons:
1) While rules change, there can be some eq and combinations that become useless (like from 4th Ed. to
5th Ed.), but something like that should not be happening in a new Codex!
2) Rulechanges and other issues can cause problems to units and make the Player complain about them.
Those problems should be solved in a new dex.
3) GW wants to sell stuff, but a new dex should not force you to buy everything new and leave the old
stuff behind...
Tyranids were my first and most loved army, but the new dex seems to be a whole new army to me. Changes aren't a bad thing, but some things don't make sense to me (it is not all that bad, just different).
But as a costumer i want to have a certain quality standard.
We have no Eternal warrior anymore. Thats ok, i think, because i see Tau's shadowsun ripped apart from
orcish rockets quite often; what's a 40Pts. warrior compared to that? It is still worth its points! But in another way synapse needed changes that did not come:
Hormagaunts etc. still suffer from fearless in CC! This was the thing that mostly needed changes, but it stays just like before (see reason 2). Another thing regarding reason 2: personally i don't like Nidzilla and i felt like it needed some fixes, but the new dex makes it stronger than ever before! Think of a TMC with T6 W4 AS2+ that counts as core and hence can hold mission objectives... And there are new TMCs in all foc slots. Lictors deepstrike-rules needed some fixes. Well, it got changed. While in the old rules it suffers from slipping over it's sleeping feet when it jumped out of cover (dangerous terrain for deepstrike), it now can be placed safely but stops after jumping out of cover and poses for the camera (it can't attack anymore, but instead may shoot a 6" pistol)... 3 lictors that have to be in formation and that may enter the field next to the enemy but then wait a whole round doing nothing but presenting their bad AS5+ aren't worth their points. In several tests they got shot down or got attacked in CC (even by fire warriors, since they were better off assaulting then waiting for the lictors to assault. looks somewhat like reason 2 again).
Now even Carnifexes suffer from being out of synapse, with their ld6 and hunter instinctive behavior (alway going into CC with the next enemy is the chosen way to nerf shoot-fexes). By the way, what is the matter with the carnifexs eq? With its S9 it can wound nearly anything on a 2+, but for 10 more you can give him poison(4)! Even with the reroll due to high strength, the probability to wound is higher without this
biomorph against anything with T8 or less (see reason 1).
Regarding biomporphs:
Regeneration keeps the same as before (effect- and pointwise). You surely remember that no one took it cause it was too expensive compared to its effect...
Venom cannon got nerfed against vehicles, but that's ok, since it was never intended to work like this anyway. Some of the other weapons look really nice (especially the new ones, so you have to buy new stuff ;-)).
We have to admit, that some TMC builds were imba and needed a nerf (especially the devourer-tyrant and fex), but the old TMC's got more nerfed than they needed to. If i want to field my Tyrant more or less WYSIWYG (this goes for builds with devourer and builds without it), it costs as much as a bloodthirster, and is nonetheless weaker than before (and it didn't stand a chance against a bloodthirster in several tests..). But with the new morph choices and powers it might still be worth its higher point costs.
The Carnifex on the opposite is much more expensive and still nerfed down statwise and just not worth it's
points anymore. And why should you field a Carnifex (with morphs) if a Trygon/Mawloc is cheaper and has better stats and better specialrules? You just have to buy the new ones and shelf the old models (see reason 3)...
And with the "without number" rule being replaced by the tervigon, you could not field the same 30 models again and again, but now you need to buy X times the unit to field all the models at the same time (again reason 3).
Besides that Tervigon is a nice idea. Regarding reason 3:
Lots of TMCs dont't have models yet, but the redshirts told me that all of em could be designed from Trygon- and Carnifex-kits, so keep on buying... Of course, lots of armies have units without models now, but another thing really seems to scream "buy more":
The gaunts fleshborer now are cheaper and inferior to the spike fists (while it was inversed in the old rules).
So if you want to keep a cheap meatshield, you have to cut the fists of and replace them by fleshborers or
buy new gaunts, and if you want to keep the pricier but better unit you have to rebuild your gaunts or buy new ones...
Gargoyles got a nice power up. They weren't played in the past, but now you have to buy lots of em...
Shadow of the warp is now better, but has a smaller area of effect. Bad that lots of psychic powers can be used more than 12" away from models with the shadow...
Hive guards are a new unit with a 24" S8 AP4 Assault2 weapon that don't need LOS, but remember that the target WILL get a cover save, so you might want to have LOS... not a bad unit at all.
Zoanthropes are one of the few old units that actually got better. 3 S10 AP1 lance shots in a drop pod are nasty, even on a 4+ to hit! And they became cheaper (i think the old price would still be worth it).
Hormagaunts became slower, thats a fact. But their point costs got halved and for very few points more per model they can get poison(4). Not that bad at all. But they still suffer from fearless in CC.
Genestealers got a slight point reduction and are still good. But all in all the Tyranids aren't the CC kings
anymore. They are somewhat faster in CC (higher I) but have inferior CC abilities compared to orcs.
Biovores got nerved, because they only have one sort of mines (i miss the AP3 acid for tankpopping), but the mines are nasty, because they enter the field like deepstriker, but before armies are deployed. If i understood that right, one can prevent the opponent from deploying his army at the beginning (he has to keep 18" to enemy models...). Seems like not beeing intended that way (poorly designed maybe?).
Venomtrophe is another new unit, nice with the coversave-ability, but it compete with other good uits for the elite-slots. The units distribution over the foc slots seems odd, for there are few choices in some slots while other slots are really crowded. That could have been better.
The drop pod spore thingies can defend themself in CC surprisingly well, but as they are immobile, they can
never attack. CC is only possible if the enemy assaults them (but why should he? just keep on shooting this
thing...)
Harpy is a TMC that is likely to be killed by 3 heavy bolters in one round. what else to say about it?!?
In the end there are lot's of changes that are ok, i think, like the loss of EW, but other issues seem rather
wrong to me, like the heavy nerf of most existing tyrant- and carnifex builds AND the heavy points
increasement (this alltogehter is just ridiculous).
Then there is this "buy new models" tpoic that seems to be the red string in the codex, more than i have ever seen it before. GW seems to really need our money that badly!
And there are poor desgn issues, like the old weaknesses the nids suffered from since 5th Ed. that have not been solved and new issues like useless eq what should not be possible in a new dex.
The fluff is disappointing as well. Nearly the whole fluff part contains of a timeline that shortly states which
swarm attacked the empire where and when. And not just the old fleets, but half a dozen new ones are just there, like the whole imperial history got rewritten or a librarian found a book with all the hivefleets that have been totally forgotten after their appearance. I am not a fan of timelines and instead was hoping for some cool stories and colorful metaphoric descriptions of the full terror of a tyranid invasion... at least the descriptions of the several units in the foc is not that bad.
Besides all that (and it really annoys me, that there are so many failures in the dex like someone who has no clue about all the stuff wrote a codex for the first time), the new nids are competitive, but it is likely
that you have to buy lot's of new models. So this topic does not concern new going-to-be tyranid players.
But the change of style hit me hard: everything tyranids were to me, they now suck compared to orcs. Orcs are faster (transports with red color), orcs are tougher (thanks to wound allocation etc., while most tyranids have to be equipped the all the same), orcs are better in CC (even though nids have better I, thats all i could say positevly about nids) and orcs have far more attacks (instead of attacks we can reroll 1 to hit; i would prefer more attacks, like in the old days).
When i put the dex back onto the table, a redshirt said "there goes another disappointed tyranid player"! So i seem not to be the only one...
If you want to start a new army, you could have fun with tyranids, but most of my 5000Pts seem to be useless now, so and i feel like the many changes have lead to a whole new army instead of a new dex. And the quality of rules etc. shocked me.
Our local community, my friends and me agrred, that this is the worst codex ever, but we will not sell or shelf our minis; instead we are going to just keep on playing the old dex, since it seems to be the far better choice.
Writing this i think how cool it would be if everyone would boycott the new dex like we will do it, and GW
would see that something went wrong there. Or if they get 100000 mails of disappointed customers. But that will never happen.
What i want from you is, to hear your opinion about this topic (not just rules itself, but the design and
codex quality). But in the end i might just be another crybaby and you should not rely on rumors, so wait until you could see the dex (if there still is no preview available to you), get your own impression and then tell me, if something went wrong or if i am just member of a minority.
I hope it became clear, that i don't think the new codex is broken, or that it is unplayable anymore. The topic here is that i feel like the codex is of poor quality and contains some failures that should not occur in a well designed dex. That is what i want to hear your 2 cents about.
As german being my native language, i might be somewhat lost in translation; sorry about that ^^'
I read the forums for quite some while now, but i never registered. At first, greetings to all^^
and i hope you can forgive me for starting my forum career with this tpoic, but it really bugs me
somehow...
After reading all the rumors, nerfcreep and doomsaying, I decided to take a look at the new tyranidcodex
myself. It is open to pubilc for quite some days now (at least here in Germany; is it true that there are
no previewdexes overseas?). After reading the dex very carefully,some issues kept bothering me...
First of all, I am not a Nidzilla-Player, nor am i afraid of changings (I play 3 different armies since
3rd Ed. and i never complained before). The new dex is not broken; as a matter of fact, it is very
competitive. But the dex itself seems to be poorly designed. It is the worst codex i have ever read,
for several reasons:
1) While rules change, there can be some eq and combinations that become useless (like from 4th Ed. to
5th Ed.), but something like that should not be happening in a new Codex!
2) Rulechanges and other issues can cause problems to units and make the Player complain about them.
Those problems should be solved in a new dex.
3) GW wants to sell stuff, but a new dex should not force you to buy everything new and leave the old
stuff behind...
Tyranids were my first and most loved army, but the new dex seems to be a whole new army to me. Changes aren't a bad thing, but some things don't make sense to me (it is not all that bad, just different).
But as a costumer i want to have a certain quality standard.
We have no Eternal warrior anymore. Thats ok, i think, because i see Tau's shadowsun ripped apart from
orcish rockets quite often; what's a 40Pts. warrior compared to that? It is still worth its points! But in another way synapse needed changes that did not come:
Hormagaunts etc. still suffer from fearless in CC! This was the thing that mostly needed changes, but it stays just like before (see reason 2). Another thing regarding reason 2: personally i don't like Nidzilla and i felt like it needed some fixes, but the new dex makes it stronger than ever before! Think of a TMC with T6 W4 AS2+ that counts as core and hence can hold mission objectives... And there are new TMCs in all foc slots. Lictors deepstrike-rules needed some fixes. Well, it got changed. While in the old rules it suffers from slipping over it's sleeping feet when it jumped out of cover (dangerous terrain for deepstrike), it now can be placed safely but stops after jumping out of cover and poses for the camera (it can't attack anymore, but instead may shoot a 6" pistol)... 3 lictors that have to be in formation and that may enter the field next to the enemy but then wait a whole round doing nothing but presenting their bad AS5+ aren't worth their points. In several tests they got shot down or got attacked in CC (even by fire warriors, since they were better off assaulting then waiting for the lictors to assault. looks somewhat like reason 2 again).
Now even Carnifexes suffer from being out of synapse, with their ld6 and hunter instinctive behavior (alway going into CC with the next enemy is the chosen way to nerf shoot-fexes). By the way, what is the matter with the carnifexs eq? With its S9 it can wound nearly anything on a 2+, but for 10 more you can give him poison(4)! Even with the reroll due to high strength, the probability to wound is higher without this
biomorph against anything with T8 or less (see reason 1).
Regarding biomporphs:
Regeneration keeps the same as before (effect- and pointwise). You surely remember that no one took it cause it was too expensive compared to its effect...
Venom cannon got nerfed against vehicles, but that's ok, since it was never intended to work like this anyway. Some of the other weapons look really nice (especially the new ones, so you have to buy new stuff ;-)).
We have to admit, that some TMC builds were imba and needed a nerf (especially the devourer-tyrant and fex), but the old TMC's got more nerfed than they needed to. If i want to field my Tyrant more or less WYSIWYG (this goes for builds with devourer and builds without it), it costs as much as a bloodthirster, and is nonetheless weaker than before (and it didn't stand a chance against a bloodthirster in several tests..). But with the new morph choices and powers it might still be worth its higher point costs.
The Carnifex on the opposite is much more expensive and still nerfed down statwise and just not worth it's
points anymore. And why should you field a Carnifex (with morphs) if a Trygon/Mawloc is cheaper and has better stats and better specialrules? You just have to buy the new ones and shelf the old models (see reason 3)...
And with the "without number" rule being replaced by the tervigon, you could not field the same 30 models again and again, but now you need to buy X times the unit to field all the models at the same time (again reason 3).
Besides that Tervigon is a nice idea. Regarding reason 3:
Lots of TMCs dont't have models yet, but the redshirts told me that all of em could be designed from Trygon- and Carnifex-kits, so keep on buying... Of course, lots of armies have units without models now, but another thing really seems to scream "buy more":
The gaunts fleshborer now are cheaper and inferior to the spike fists (while it was inversed in the old rules).
So if you want to keep a cheap meatshield, you have to cut the fists of and replace them by fleshborers or
buy new gaunts, and if you want to keep the pricier but better unit you have to rebuild your gaunts or buy new ones...
Gargoyles got a nice power up. They weren't played in the past, but now you have to buy lots of em...
Shadow of the warp is now better, but has a smaller area of effect. Bad that lots of psychic powers can be used more than 12" away from models with the shadow...
Hive guards are a new unit with a 24" S8 AP4 Assault2 weapon that don't need LOS, but remember that the target WILL get a cover save, so you might want to have LOS... not a bad unit at all.
Zoanthropes are one of the few old units that actually got better. 3 S10 AP1 lance shots in a drop pod are nasty, even on a 4+ to hit! And they became cheaper (i think the old price would still be worth it).
Hormagaunts became slower, thats a fact. But their point costs got halved and for very few points more per model they can get poison(4). Not that bad at all. But they still suffer from fearless in CC.
Genestealers got a slight point reduction and are still good. But all in all the Tyranids aren't the CC kings
anymore. They are somewhat faster in CC (higher I) but have inferior CC abilities compared to orcs.
Biovores got nerved, because they only have one sort of mines (i miss the AP3 acid for tankpopping), but the mines are nasty, because they enter the field like deepstriker, but before armies are deployed. If i understood that right, one can prevent the opponent from deploying his army at the beginning (he has to keep 18" to enemy models...). Seems like not beeing intended that way (poorly designed maybe?).
Venomtrophe is another new unit, nice with the coversave-ability, but it compete with other good uits for the elite-slots. The units distribution over the foc slots seems odd, for there are few choices in some slots while other slots are really crowded. That could have been better.
The drop pod spore thingies can defend themself in CC surprisingly well, but as they are immobile, they can
never attack. CC is only possible if the enemy assaults them (but why should he? just keep on shooting this
thing...)
Harpy is a TMC that is likely to be killed by 3 heavy bolters in one round. what else to say about it?!?
In the end there are lot's of changes that are ok, i think, like the loss of EW, but other issues seem rather
wrong to me, like the heavy nerf of most existing tyrant- and carnifex builds AND the heavy points
increasement (this alltogehter is just ridiculous).
Then there is this "buy new models" tpoic that seems to be the red string in the codex, more than i have ever seen it before. GW seems to really need our money that badly!
And there are poor desgn issues, like the old weaknesses the nids suffered from since 5th Ed. that have not been solved and new issues like useless eq what should not be possible in a new dex.
The fluff is disappointing as well. Nearly the whole fluff part contains of a timeline that shortly states which
swarm attacked the empire where and when. And not just the old fleets, but half a dozen new ones are just there, like the whole imperial history got rewritten or a librarian found a book with all the hivefleets that have been totally forgotten after their appearance. I am not a fan of timelines and instead was hoping for some cool stories and colorful metaphoric descriptions of the full terror of a tyranid invasion... at least the descriptions of the several units in the foc is not that bad.
Besides all that (and it really annoys me, that there are so many failures in the dex like someone who has no clue about all the stuff wrote a codex for the first time), the new nids are competitive, but it is likely
that you have to buy lot's of new models. So this topic does not concern new going-to-be tyranid players.
But the change of style hit me hard: everything tyranids were to me, they now suck compared to orcs. Orcs are faster (transports with red color), orcs are tougher (thanks to wound allocation etc., while most tyranids have to be equipped the all the same), orcs are better in CC (even though nids have better I, thats all i could say positevly about nids) and orcs have far more attacks (instead of attacks we can reroll 1 to hit; i would prefer more attacks, like in the old days).
When i put the dex back onto the table, a redshirt said "there goes another disappointed tyranid player"! So i seem not to be the only one...
If you want to start a new army, you could have fun with tyranids, but most of my 5000Pts seem to be useless now, so and i feel like the many changes have lead to a whole new army instead of a new dex. And the quality of rules etc. shocked me.
Our local community, my friends and me agrred, that this is the worst codex ever, but we will not sell or shelf our minis; instead we are going to just keep on playing the old dex, since it seems to be the far better choice.
Writing this i think how cool it would be if everyone would boycott the new dex like we will do it, and GW
would see that something went wrong there. Or if they get 100000 mails of disappointed customers. But that will never happen.
What i want from you is, to hear your opinion about this topic (not just rules itself, but the design and
codex quality). But in the end i might just be another crybaby and you should not rely on rumors, so wait until you could see the dex (if there still is no preview available to you), get your own impression and then tell me, if something went wrong or if i am just member of a minority.
I hope it became clear, that i don't think the new codex is broken, or that it is unplayable anymore. The topic here is that i feel like the codex is of poor quality and contains some failures that should not occur in a well designed dex. That is what i want to hear your 2 cents about.
As german being my native language, i might be somewhat lost in translation; sorry about that ^^'