Question about power of the machine spirit

[LCS]

First of all, here is Power of the Machine Spirit (BRB, page 40): "In a turn in which the vehicle neither moves Flat Out nor uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to normal rules for shooting."

So obviously what this does is let vehicles fire more weapons than they would be allowed to at normal BS, and at a different target. A Land Raider can move six inches and fire two weapons at full BS. Or it can move 12 inches and still fire one a full BS. Not too much different that from previous editions (though without the ability to move the vehicle 12 inches when stunned). The rule has been worded specifically to deal with Snap Shots (BRB page 13): "If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots."

So, I have no confusion over this rule in most situations. However, I do have a few questions:

1. Can vehicles with PotMS use the rule to fire one weapon at flyers with full BS even though they don't have Skyfire? Since the effect of Hard to Hit is to make non Skyfire models Snap Shot, and PotMS is written to ignore Snap Snots, this seems logical to me. I've been told by some people I play with that they can't. If they can't, why not?

Hard to hit (BRB, page 81): "...Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule...)"

2. Does PotMS allow Flyers to fire a fifth weapon (one more than permitted)?

3. Does PotMS let Flyers with the rule fire one of their guns at ground units at full BS, even if using the rest of their weapons against other flyers? Remember that (BRB, page 81) "Flyers can choose whether or not to use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each Shooting phase. They don't have to use the Skyfire rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that turn are treated as having the Skyfire special rule."

It's odd, because for some reason no one I play with has a problem with 3. No one seems to mind Flyers breaking their own rules to shoot ground units (using Storm Eagle to fire at an enemy Flyer with the Lascannons and MM, and firing the missile launcher at ground units with PotMS), but everyone has a problem with the opposite (Land Raiders shooting at a ground unit and then using PotMS to fire a Lascannon at a Flyer). Any help here? And I would appreciate a why as well, not just "No you can't shoot at Flyers like that, you have to have Skyfire." Because as the rules are written, there isn't anything that says this shouldn't work.

[Wolfshade]

1. They can't (or shouldn't).
My reasoning (which may be flawed), suggests the process is this
a) Declare using PoTMS - this enables you to shoot at full BS
b) Target flyer, at this point the rules for shooting at flyers overides the previous rule

It is akin to normal shooting rules, you start at your normal BS and the hard to hit overrides the normal rules for shooting.

2. Yes, as long as that weapon hasn't already fired that player turn.

3. I would say no. As you say the start of the shooting phase you decide what "mode" you are shooting at. So in the same way that 1. works, the special rules for shooting from a flyer over ride the "normal" case, all the PoTMS allows you to fire another weapon, not change modes or whatever.

In terms of consistency 1 & 3 need to follow the same principals. But at the end of day, you and your mates can always "house rule" it whichever way you like, just make sure everyone is happy with this and are aware of the consequences.

[Nabterayl]

1. They can't (or shouldn't).
My reasoning (which may be flawed), suggests the process is this
a) Declare using PoTMS - this enables you to shoot at full BS
b) Target flyer, at this point the rules for shooting at flyers overides the previous rule

It is akin to normal shooting rules, you start at your normal BS and the hard to hit overrides the normal rules for shooting.

2. Yes, as long as that weapon hasn't already fired that player turn.

3. I would say no. As you say the start of the shooting phase you decide what "mode" you are shooting at. So in the same way that 1. works, the special rules for shooting from a flyer over ride the "normal" case, all the PoTMS allows you to fire another weapon, not change modes or whatever.

In terms of consistency 1 & 3 need to follow the same principals. But at the end of day, you and your mates can always "house rule" it whichever way you like, just make sure everyone is happy with this and are aware of the consequences.
I concur on all points.

[daboarder]

pretty sure 1 is in the FAQ

[Angelofblades]

I have a question to go along with the OP.

So a Storm Raven has PoTMS... can you use the PoTMS to fire an extra missile?

So like if it's armed with TLACK, TLMM and the 4 missiles, the rulebook says you can only fire 2, but PoTMS says you can fire one more than normal, so does it allow the Storm Raven to fire one more missile than normal?

[daboarder]

I have a question to go along with the OP.

So a Storm Raven has PoTMS... can you use the PoTMS to fire an extra missile?

So like if it's armed with TLACK, TLMM and the 4 missiles, the rulebook says you can only fire 2, but PoTMS says you can fire one more than normal, so does it allow the Storm Raven to fire one more missile than normal?

no

[John Bower]

pretty sure 1 is in the FAQ

Nope.... Just checked and pretty sure it would be the Rulebook FAQ's no? As it is now a BRB special rule.

[LCS]

no

Why not? No where in the rules or FAQ does it say they can't. In fact with rules as written I still don't see why flyers with PotMS can't shoot at ground units or why grounds units can't shoot at the flyers using PotMS. No where is there anything that covers this. The only reasonable answer that I have seen was given by Wolfshade. I can understand his logic, though I don't agree with it. I'm just curious why the Flyer rule for some reason overwrites PotMS. All the flying does is make models without Skyfire fire Snap Shots, and PotMS is written in a way that the unit using it may ignore Snap Shots with one weapon (and it may fire at a different target). It's odd to me how certain rules seem to be immutable to some people, while others are always open to discussion I'd be more OK with the answer of no if there was anything that actually talked about this.

The main reason I ask is because I primarily play Dark Angels. I don't have the kind of money to go out and buy every new thing, and I'm really not a huge fan of proxies. I do have three Land Raiders, and it would be nice to know for sure how PotMS works. I don't have either of the DA flyers (which are terrible when compared to every other armies flyers) and am just trying to find ways other than taking an Aegis (the quad gun is always among the first things to die). My friends play Tyranids, Demons, CSM, Necrons, Eldar, and Tau. Everyone except the Eldar player always has at least 4 Flyers/FMC and I'm just trying to find a way to deal with them without having to ally or buy half of a new army.

[LCS]

pretty sure 1 is in the FAQ

Show us where.

[daboarder]

Why not? No where in the rules or FAQ does it say they can't. In fact with rules as written I still don't see why flyers with PotMS can't shoot at ground units or why grounds units can't shoot at the flyers using PotMS. No where is there anything that covers this. The only reasonable answer that I have seen was given by Wolfshade. I can understand his logic, though I don't agree with it. I'm just curious why the Flyer rule for some reason overwrites PotMS. All the flying does is make models without Skyfire fire Snap Shots, and PotMS is written in a way that the unit using it may ignore Snap Shots with one weapon (and it may fire at a different target). It's odd to me how certain rules seem to be immutable to some people, while others are always open to discussion I'd be more OK with the answer of no if there was anything that actually talked about this.

The main reason I ask is because I primarily play Dark Angels. I don't have the kind of money to go out and buy every new thing, and I'm really not a huge fan of proxies. I do have three Land Raiders, and it would be nice to know for sure how PotMS works. I don't have either of the DA flyers (which are terrible when compared to every other armies flyers) and am just trying to find ways other than taking an Aegis (the quad gun is always among the first things to die). My friends play Tyranids, Demons, CSM, Necrons, Eldar, and Tau. Everyone except the Eldar player always has at least 4 Flyers/FMC and I'm just trying to find a way to deal with them without having to ally or buy half of a new army.

NO! because Power of the machine spirit lets you fire an additional weapon, no where does it override the special rule for missiles that limit you to firing a maximum of two regardless of how many weapons you may fire

also: whenever you find your self arguing that "nowhere in the rules says I can't", that's a good indication that you can't


Show us where.


Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules
that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space
Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No

[LCS]

NO! because Power of the machine spirit lets you fire an additional weapon, no where does it override the special rule for missiles that limit you to firing a maximum of two regardless of how many weapons you may fire

also: whenever you find your self arguing that "nowhere in the rules says I can't", that's a good indication that you can't

OK, I misread what you said about the missiles. I agree with you that flyers can only shoot 2 missiles. I thought you were saying that flyers with PotMS can't even take the extra shot granted them by the rule. And all I'm saying is that rules as written, PotMS ignores Snap Shots. Flyers make you fire Snap Shots. How are you not getting that? Nowhere (in the book, in the FAQ, in any Codex) does it say PotMS applies to only certain situations of Snap Shots. It just lets you ignore one Snap Shot per turn.

[daboarder]

edit: NVM

[Asuryan]

PotMS is written in a way that the unit using it may ignore Snap Shots with one weapon (and it may fire at a different target).

In a turn in which the vehicle neither moves Flat Out nor uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to normal rules for shooting.

That does not mean that it may ignore snapshots, it means that they may fire an additional weapon at full BS based on the speed the vehicle moved. Then depending on what you shoot at such as a flyer you have to use snapshots because of the hard to hit rule.

As for missiles, you can only fire two per turn, PoTMS has nothing to do with the missiles except you could fire 2 weapons on the flyer normally 2 missiles at full BS (your four weapons per turn) then PoTMS allows you to fire a 3rd weapon at full BS.

[LCS]

In a turn in which the vehicle neither moves Flat Out nor uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to normal rules for shooting.

That does not mean that it may ignore snapshots, it means that they may fire an additional weapon at full BS based on the speed the vehicle moved. Then depending on what you shoot at such as a flyer you have to use snapshots because of the hard to hit rule.

As for missiles, you can only fire two per turn, PoTMS has nothing to do with the missiles except you could fire 2 weapons on the flyer normally 2 missiles at full BS (your four weapons per turn) then PoTMS allows you to fire a 3rd weapon at full BS.

So you're focusing only on the movement of the vehicle, which is what is making the vehicle fire Snap Shots. The vehicles moves, therefore it must Snap Shot with it's weapons (depending on how far it moved). I really don't see the difference between that and firing at a Flyer/Flyer firing at a ground unit. If the first part of PotMS is met "In a turn in which the vehicle neither moves Flat Out nor uses smoke launchers" then you are qualified for the second part of the rule "vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted." If firing at a Flyer and the unit does not have Skyfire, the amount of shots permitted to fire at full BS is zero. One more than zero is one. I guess we're just reading the rules differently. You're putting limits on the rule when there is nothing in the book to limit the rule. Again, I just wish there was anything official on this.

[LCS]

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules
that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space
Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No


That FAQ has absolutely nothing to do with this, and I think you know that. If that rule applied here, then PotMS would be absolutely meaningless.

[Asuryan]

So you're focusing only on the movement of the vehicle, which is what is making the vehicle fire Snap Shots. The vehicles moves, therefore it must Snap Shot with it's weapons (depending on how far it moved). I really don't see the difference between that and firing at a Flyer/Flyer firing at a ground unit.

The difference is focusing on how fast the model moved vs what the model is shooting at.

Not a great example but with eldar battlefocus, they can run then shoot, but just because i can shoot after running it doesn't allow me to fire at flyers at full bs because of what i'm shooting at.


You're putting limits on the rule when there is nothing in the book to limit the rule.

And you added the ignores snap shots into PoTMS which it clearly does not do.


I guess we're just reading the rules differently.

Which is how almost all rule questions will go until GW gets off their butts and write and FaQ or Errata for the last 3 codexs that have come out.

[Nabterayl]

than normally permitted
LCS, I think you're minimizing the importance of this phrase. You're reading the rule as if it said the vehicle can fire one more weapon than normally permitted, and it can fire that weapon at full ballistic skill. You seem to acknowledge that it could be read as if it says the number of weapons the vehicle can fire at full ballistic skill is increased by one,* but you see no particular reason to make one reading more likely than the other.

Consider, however, the following rule from page 71:


A vehicle that moved at Combat Speed may fire a single weapon using its full Ballistic Skill.

If we follow your grammatical logic, I would think that we read this as saying that a vehicle that moved at combat speed can fire a single weapon at a zooming flyer at its full Ballistic Skill. After all, as you say, if the first part of the rule is met ("A vehicle that moved at Combat Speed"), then you are qualified for the second part of the rule ("may fire a single weapon using its full Ballistic Skill"). The logic is the same, isn't it? The combat speed rule doesn't place any limitations or qualifiers on "may fire a single weapon using its full Ballistic Skill" except that the vehicle has to have moved at combat speed. It says nothing about flyers or any other condition that would normally require you to fire Snap Shots. It says you can fire a weapon at full Ballistic Skill, full stop.

I'm guessing, however, that isn't how you read page 71. If I'm right, then I submit that you do have a reason to prefer Asuryan's/Wolfshade's/my reading of Power of the Machine Spirit.

* That is, a normal vehicle that moved at combat speed can fire two instead of one; a vehicle that moved at cruising speed can fire one instead of zero; a fast vehicle that moved at cruising speed can fire three instead of two; a zooming flyer can fire five instead of four, but in each case subject to the normal limitations on firing weapons at full ballistic skill, such as firing at zooming flyers or swooping flying monstrous creatures or firing ordnance weapons.

[Tynskel]

Sneaky small print! There's always a catchin the small print!

[Gleipnir]

That FAQ has absolutely nothing to do with this, and I think you know that. If that rule applied here, then PotMS would be absolutely meaningless.

Actually that FAQ has everything to do with it is specifically asks if a special rule can ever permit you to use a BS higher than 1 when firing Snap Shots, PotMS allows you to fire an additional weapon as has been suggested numerous times without incurring the additional Snap Shot penalty for having moved, but does nothing to negate Snap Shots incurred from firing at a Swooping/Zooming, that is what Skyfire does.

Absent an Advanced rule that directly contradicts how Snap Shots are treated as was done with the Tau Codex entry for markerlights, Snap Shots overrule special rules that raise the BS above 1