Warhound Titan in hand to hand with infantry.

[Jamesknouse]

If a warhound titan is attacked by infantry units can it still fire its main weapons?

I just had my first Apoc game and was attacked by three Chaos Termies who assaulted it's toes... I was told it could not fire its Turbo Lasers while being in hand to hand... Is this true? A warhound with a 12 movement can't step out of melee or just continue to fire its guns?

Seems silly so I thought I would ask the forum.

If there are rules concerning this please point them out to me.

On the positive side before that the warhound took out two Lords of Skulls and two Baneblades in two turns before being locked up in hand to hand with the 3 said HERO Chaos Termies.

[Nabterayl]

Your opponent was correct. As you know, a super-heavy walker follows the normal rules for walkers unless otherwise stated - and there isn't a rule that permits super-heavy walkers to fire while locked in combat, or that permits them not to be locked in combat when assaulted. They have to work their way out of close combat the old fashioned way.

[Jamesknouse]

I understand... I couldn't find anything in the rules that stated I could fire. It sure was hard for me to swallow that a titan could be effectively shut down in that manner.

I see plenty of people asking how to kill a warhound in game in these forums. The answer isn't taking tricked out units or huge tank destroyers to blast it. The answer is taking a small unit of troops to just tie it up. Like ten Gretchin... Silly.

[Jamesknouse]

Your opponent was correct. As you know, a super-heavy walker follows the normal rules for walkers unless otherwise stated - and there isn't a rule that permits super-heavy walkers to fire while locked in combat, or that permits them not to be locked in combat when assaulted. They have to work their way out of close combat the old fashioned way.



can you help me understand what this means on page 4 of the Apoc update...

"If, at the end of an assault, enemy models that are not Gargantuan
Creatures or Super-heavy Walkers are still engaged with a Gargantuan
Creature, they must immediately make a Consolidate move in order to get
at least 1” away from the Gargantuan Creature. Gargantuan Creatures
may not consolidate. In an assault against other Gargantuan Creatures
and Super-heavy Walkers they remain engaged as normal."

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/apoc6thupdate.pdf

Does this mean that at the end of hand to hand the combat breaks off for non gargantuan creatures?

[Nefarius Drapesh]

Excuse my mind being a bit wrecked from a long nightshift.

for the warhound question: don't forget to stomp your way through those ants.

And btw is there something preventing a lord of skulls from thunderblitzing/tankshocking out of combat?

[Nabterayl]

I understand... I couldn't find anything in the rules that stated I could fire. It sure was hard for me to swallow that a titan could be effectively shut down in that manner.

I see plenty of people asking how to kill a warhound in game in these forums. The answer isn't taking tricked out units or huge tank destroyers to blast it. The answer is taking a small unit of troops to just tie it up. Like ten Gretchin... Silly.
Well, to be fair, ten gretchin are highly unlikely to tie even a single round of combat against a super-heavy walker, even one that has no CC capabilities. In order to tie up a Warhound, a tarpit unit has to be able to be able to beat the walker in combat, be Fearless, or make its morale check when it loses. And while a Warhound is hardly a CC beast against enemy infantry, it's still AP2 and has its Stomp attacks.


can you help me understand what this means on page 4 of the Apoc update...

"If, at the end of an assault, enemy models that are not Gargantuan
Creatures or Super-heavy Walkers are still engaged with a Gargantuan
Creature, they must immediately make a Consolidate move in order to get
at least 1” away from the Gargantuan Creature. Gargantuan Creatures
may not consolidate. In an assault against other Gargantuan Creatures
and Super-heavy Walkers they remain engaged as normal."

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/apoc6thupdate.pdf

Does this mean that at the end of hand to hand the combat breaks off for non gargantuan creatures?
It means that at the end of hand to hand the combat used to break off for non-gargantuan creature, non-super-heavy walker models. Since that update predates the re-release of the base Apocalypse rulebook, though, it is not current for super-heavy walkers.

[Jamesknouse]

I stomped.... 1 nothing happens, 2-5 Str 6 AP 4, makes for an easy save and a 6 no save.... still a little nonsensical considering but it is something.

I know nothing about thunderblitzing lol

is the http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Download...c6thupdate.pdf FAQ still active?

[Jamesknouse]

Well, to be fair, ten gretchin are highly unlikely to tie even a single round of combat against a super-heavy walker, even one that has no CC capabilities. In order to tie up a Warhound, a tarpit unit has to be able to be able to beat the walker in combat, be Fearless, or make its morale check when it loses. And while a Warhound is hardly a CC beast against enemy infantry, it's still AP2 and has its Stomp attacks.


It means that at the end of hand to hand the combat used to break off for non-gargantuan creature, non-super-heavy walker models. Since that update predates the re-release of the base Apocalypse rulebook, though, it is not current for super-heavy walkers.

I see... I see...

Just to make it clear. The Warhound's defense in melee is 1 WS 2 attack at AP 2 and stomp attacks with a damage table of a 1 miss/4-5 hit STR 6 AP 4/ 6 remove unit from play.

I wish the rule below was left in. It makes sense. When in combat with a huge foot one must regroup and re-attack because it is moving 12" a turn.

"If, at the end of an assault, enemy models that are not Gargantuan
Creatures or Super-heavy Walkers are still engaged with a Gargantuan
Creature, they must immediately make a Consolidate move in order to get
at least 1” away from the Gargantuan Creature. Gargantuan Creatures
may not consolidate. In an assault against other Gargantuan Creatures
and Super-heavy Walkers they remain engaged as normal."

oh well.

[John Bower]

I think if you look at it from a fluff perspective then it makes sense this way....

There you are, driving this huge walking critter, yeah okay that's fine you're shooting up enemy tanks etc. Then you get some little warnings go off on your dashboard, somebody is being audacious enough to start actually hitting you in CC. Now what do you do? Do you: A/ break off and continue shooting at other targets ignoring them, B/ Turn your attention to the dudes knowing full well they just might have Melta bombs that can bring your walking monstrosity crashing to the ground in flames.

I know what my choice would be, stomp 'em first, I want to live through the battle.

[Archon Charybdis]

That PDF is out of date, it was for when 6th edition first came out, not the newest Apocalypse rules. The rule you quoted is a snippet from the old Apocalypse rulebook, which unfortunately doesn't exist in the new rules. Unless your GC/SHW has Hit and Run it's locked in combat if even one grot is left stabbing it's toes.

[Jamesknouse]

I think if you look at it from a fluff perspective then it makes sense this way....

There you are, driving this huge walking critter, yeah okay that's fine you're shooting up enemy tanks etc. Then you get some little warnings go off on your dashboard, somebody is being audacious enough to start actually hitting you in CC. Now what do you do? Do you: A/ break off and continue shooting at other targets ignoring them, B/ Turn your attention to the dudes knowing full well they just might have Melta bombs that can bring your walking monstrosity crashing to the ground in flames.

I know what my choice would be, stomp 'em first, I want to live through the battle.

I do agree. You would stomp. I did... rolled a 6 and turned a multi would critter with an inv. save into a slinky. However a Super Heavy should reserve the right to just take a 12 inch move out of combat. Like Thunderblitz out... Like a super heavy vehicle.

Those old quoted rules make sense. Smaller units would have to regroup after the assault to collect themselves from the thunderous walking monstrsouty shacking the earth around them every-time it moves.

I know the next time I play an Apoc game I drop pod a few squads in and and on turn two tie up any warhounds for an entire game. When it stomps and rolls 2-5 it is only a str 6 AP 4 hit. Marines will live through that for 4 game turns. the only worry is the 6 roll for instant death.

Any who... just wanted some clarification on that.

[Jamesknouse]

That PDF is out of date, it was for when 6th edition first came out, not the newest Apocalypse rules. The rule you quoted is a snippet from the old Apocalypse rulebook, which unfortunately doesn't exist in the new rules. Unless your GC/SHW has Hit and Run it's locked in combat if even one grot is left stabbing it's toes.

Yeah I know it is out of date... But those rules out of date rules do make sense. Currently how the rules sit they do not make sense. It makes sense that infantry would have to break off combat at the end of the round to regroup from attacking a super heavy. heck... Just look at the stomp rule. D3 Stomps. Drop a small blast touching the Super heavy walkers. You can possible stomp up to 9 inches away into the enemy... You are covering a S load of ground just stomping if you roll high enough. Infantry could not even keep up with that alone. I might see a Monstrous Creature or Jump Infantry doing it. But only in Star Wars does Luke take a Walker down... :)

Having a clear understanding of this makes one just a little craftier.

Anyway thanks for the clarification guys. It blows that a 170 point unit on foot can render a Super heavy useless.

[John Bower]

Not if you don't have one and you're playing Escalation it doesn't ;)

[Chris*ta]

I think if you look at it from a fluff perspective then it makes sense this way....

There you are, driving this huge walking critter, yeah okay that's fine you're shooting up enemy tanks etc. Then you get some little warnings go off on your dashboard, somebody is being audacious enough to start actually hitting you in CC. Now what do you do? Do you: A/ break off and continue shooting at other targets ignoring them, B/ Turn your attention to the dudes knowing full well they just might have Melta bombs that can bring your walking monstrosity crashing to the ground in flames.

I know what my choice would be, stomp 'em first, I want to live through the battle.

I dunno. If I was piloting the Warhound, I'd be expecting my allied infantry to solve the problem of the enemy infantry, while I concentrate on my job of blowing up the important targets.

[Nabterayl]

I'd expect my allied infantry to solve the problem of enemy infantry getting close enough to hit me with a hammer. If my allied infantry dropped the ball so much that dudes are close enough to hit me or affix charges to me, I think I would start paying attention to it personally.

It occurs to me that, while a Warhound could probably just walk away, it shouldn't get the benefit of being a walker in close combat. I'd have no problem with a walker that big being able to just run for it, but for the shorter period in which it is in close combat, it shouldn't get the benefit of being hit on its front armor. If the super-heavy walker isn't actively fighting back, it should get hit on the rear in CC just like every other vehicle that isn't actively fighting back.

[Anggul]

Or it could just do both because there's a pilot and two gunners?

[LCS]

I think if you look at it from a fluff perspective then it makes sense this way....

There you are, driving this huge walking critter, yeah okay that's fine you're shooting up enemy tanks etc. Then you get some little warnings go off on your dashboard, somebody is being audacious enough to start actually hitting you in CC. Now what do you do? Do you: A/ break off and continue shooting at other targets ignoring them, B/ Turn your attention to the dudes knowing full well they just might have Melta bombs that can bring your walking monstrosity crashing to the ground in flames.

I know what my choice would be, stomp 'em first, I want to live through the battle.

Using real logic I'm pretty sure the Titan princeps could stomp his way through enemy units and continue to fire on distant targets. If you apply reason and fluff to the game everything falls apart.

[Lord Krungharr]

If there are little dudes all around the Walker's feet, the princeps has to look down to do anything about them, otherwise he couldn't see where to Stomp and the blasts would scatter all over instead of being 'placed'.

It's definitely of benefit to the little models to swarm the walker from all sides if possible, and with large or multiple units...that helps survive the Stomps, which can actually erase things fairly often. I've had a GUO, 4 Terminators, a Bloodthirster, and 3 Obliterators all get 6'd in 2 games. Just takes a good D3 roll and 1 of those being a 6.

I think a super-heavy Walker should be able to choose to either attack/Stomp the assaulting enemies, OR fire its weapons the next turn. That would make sense, risky depending on what's attacking the feet but possibly worth it for the extra destruction.

And yeah, having to hit always on the front armor is rough, AV14 not very easy to pen, even with a Bloodthirster and GUO smashing.

Gretchin probably couldn't charge a Warhound, they can't do any damage to it. Units may charge enemies they can't hurt (per the FAQ), but Walkers are vehicles and there's a specific rule in the BRB that says units that's can't cause damage can't charge vehicles. Hurt and damage are arguably not the same thing.

[Jamesknouse]

My last question concerning all this is this. Say 3 marines are attacking the warhound's right foot. The warhound rolls a 6 on a D6 giving him 3 stomp attacks. Can I stomp 3 times placing my blast template over the same marine each time? Or do I have to move the template to attack a new marine?

Thanks for helping me clear all this up. Knowing all this will help me play a better game next time. This last time I didn't give him any ground support figuring he could only be tied up by other super heavy/gargant creatures.

[Chris*ta]

I figure there's actually very little that a Titan can actually do when there's infantry around it's feet, there doesn't seem to be any way for the crew to see the attackers.

Also, I figure the Titan gets its front armour in combat because the whole of the legs that can be reached by infantry is heavily armoured.

And don't mention jump infantry, I wouldn't recommend a flying leap as an attack against something that is at least 100 times heavier than you are ...

[Jamesknouse]

If there are little dudes all around the Walker's feet, the princeps has to look down to do anything about them, otherwise he couldn't see where to Stomp and the blasts would scatter all over instead of being 'placed'.

It's definitely of benefit to the little models to swarm the walker from all sides if possible, and with large or multiple units...that helps survive the Stomps, which can actually erase things fairly often. I've had a GUO, 4 Terminators, a Bloodthirster, and 3 Obliterators all get 6'd in 2 games. Just takes a good D3 roll and 1 of those being a 6.

I think a super-heavy Walker should be able to choose to either attack/Stomp the assaulting enemies, OR fire its weapons the next turn. That would make sense, risky depending on what's attacking the feet but possibly worth it for the extra destruction.

And yeah, having to hit always on the front armor is rough, AV14 not very easy to pen, even with a Bloodthirster and GUO smashing.

Gretchin probably couldn't charge a Warhound, they can't do any damage to it. Units may charge enemies they can't hurt (per the FAQ), but Walkers are vehicles and there's a specific rule in the BRB that says units that's can't cause damage can't charge vehicles. Hurt and damage are arguably not the same thing.

Thanks for the response.

When your units got 6'd how where the stomps resolved? can you stomp multiple times on the same model?

The key to ending a Warhound seems to be assaulting it at the key moment of the game. Just locking it in close combat for a few turns is a game changer.

It also helps not to forget the Fear that the warhound causes. I did :)

[Jamesknouse]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/YArhABXXoQo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Just for shiitts and giggle here is out Apoc Game.

http://youtu.be/YArhABXXoQo