Ciaphas Cain in gameplay?

[Bedroom General]

I'm sure there's a thread on this, but WTH.

How would you create Ciaphas for tabletop play?

Special Character
Carapace Armour
WS+BS 5
Hell pistol
Chainsword

Special rules:

Expert with the Chainsword.
Counts as (Master crafted?) power weapon.
This is due to Cain's ability with the blade,
and also his ability to detect weaknesses in the enemy's armour.

Between me and them
When attached to a unit, Cain cannot be targeted by shooting (eg vindicare), and gets a 4++.

My Emperor damned reputation
Any unit Cain is attached to becomes Fearless. (Which can be a bad thing, believe me.)

Always accompanied by Jurgen

Jurgen?
Carapace Armour
always in 2" of Cain
Grants: immune to psykers d6", Eternal warrior to Cain.
melta gun
Deep pockets (Jurgen usually has what they need)
Both Jurgen and Cain have:
melta/f+g grenades
medi pack? (just Jurgen?)

Cain's Salamander
Jurgen driving :
gives bulldozer, extra armour and no longer counts as open topped.
(due to Jurgen's absolute disregard for orthodox driving techniques!)
Pintle mtd Heavy bolter.(or storm bolter) BS of Cain
*Not sure of main weapon, either an auto cannon, or a heavy flamer IIRC.

No points as yet but would hope cheaper than Creed!?!

he's my favourite character in the grim, dark future of novels. Him and Honsou.

Merry Xmas:)

[imperialsavant]

:)
Hey there! welcome to the Caiphus Club!
I built an entire Valhallan 597th IG Army just so I could have Caiphus & Jurgen around.
I am presently up in Qld at my daughters for Christmas so I dont have access to my computer documents or I would send you my stats on the Team.
However I made Caiphus based on points & stats for a Commisar Lord & gave him "Pananoia" which grants +1 to Inititative & Strength if Assaulted (think I added +10 points for this). I used the Gaunt figure with a chainsword in place of the sword. (nice thought of yours to make it MC at the pts for a MC weapon!)

For Jurgan I used the standard Valhallan melta trooper but added "stuff" & painted him nice & grotty.
For stats gave him Vet Sergent points & stats & added a rule for "Blunt" based on points & rules for a Psychic Hood. He has Carapace Armour & a special rule "Miasma" which due to his special odour makes enemies within 6" act at - 1 Initative (10 pts cost) Thought of making it cause assaulting enemy to roll as for difficult terrain but didnt want it to be too cheesy.

Naturally I got a FW Salamander but dont use it much due to the high points cost. Think I might see how my usual playing group feel about giving it points as per old Rhino pts now that most Rhinos cost so little. Oh & it has the Autocannon as per the picture on one of the Cain Books (I have them all inc the Chapbook from UK Gamesday via Ebay.)

Keep me in the loop & when I am back home will post all my stats on the thread

[Bedroom General]

Count me in the Ciaphas club!
Miiasma taking an attack of every model in btb with Jurgen and Ciaphas is a good idea.

I must say that I like the Idea of Ciaphas being a commissar rather than a Commissar lord, and that his abilities effect only the unit he's with.

How about this for a rule:
Jurgen! Let's get out of here
Cain, if not in btb can leave any combat during the movement phase.

[imperialsavant]

Count me in the Ciaphas club!
Miiasma taking an attack of every model in btb with Jurgen and Ciaphas is a good idea.

I must say that I like the Idea of Ciaphas being a commissar rather than a Commissar lord, and that his abilities effect only the unit he's with.

How about this for a rule:
Jurgen! Let's get out of here
Cain, if not in btb can leave any combat during the movement phase.

Yes, agreed, I dont count him as a Lord Commisar just give him the Stats & points.
I like the idea of "Lets----" Very Fluffy but we would need to put a points value on that & I did not want to make him TOO cheesy.
How about we work on this together & make a list of suggested "Traits" with points & see where it goes.
As I said I am away until after New Year & I dont have my rule book Army Lists & Stats up here
so would prefer to wait until Iam home but please go ahead on any suggestions you would like to make.

[mysterex]

I like the concept but would suggest a couple of changes:

- I don't recall Cain ever using a hell pistol.
- Fearless does not feel right to me. Remember how Cain met Jurgen - he was basically running as fast as he could away from Tyranids in panic. I'd be more inclined to go down a combination of the space marine and inquisitor route; i.e. he can always choose to make or fail a morale test but, if he is with a unit that is falling back then the unit can attempt to regroup even if below half strength.
- Don't like the Salamander no longer counting as opened top. I'm pretty sure I remember guardsmen trying to fire from it while Jurgen was driving.
- immune to psykers - perhaps more like a null rod, i.e. they simply don't work for anybody, friend or enemy if attempted within x" of Jurgen or if he is included in it's area of effect.

I have to admit, the Cain series is my favourite of the black library's and I'm glad to see that other people seem to enjoy it as much.

[OnFyre]

I'm sure Jurgen's Salamander has a heavy flamer on it somewhere. Cain used it to burn down that Tau factory the 'Stealers were hiding under in the first book.

[Melissia]

That was a command salamander that was used only once in the series. It was not Jurgen's chosen salamander. In fact, if you actually pay attention, you notice he comments on this very fact-- that he prefers the scout salamander he normally uses to the command salamander.

[Disgruntled_Viking]

Gotta admit, starting a Valhallan army just to include Cain is something I've been wanting to do. But yea, I agree, at one point he's offered a Bolt Pistol but stuck with his Laspistol instead. Justified after years of fighting with it, he'd be more deadly with it than any bolt pistol. If you want to reflect that you can always try to add a 'Always wounds on 6, armor saves allowed' to represent his skill in shooting with it.

I agree on the pass or fail any morale check deal instead of Fearless. He ran PLENTY of times in the series but every time he did it was viewed as 'heroic' so it'd make sense he choose to fail a test and no one would doubt his leadership in the process. I do recommend to make his LD value 8 unless part of a squad, then it becomes 10 in his constant struggle to 'uphold his reputation'.

[Melissia]

Also, a rule for Jurgen:


"True Hero of the Imperium"
The first time each round that an enemy wounds Ciaphas Cain, roll d6. On a 4+, Jurgen fires his meltagun to interrupt the attack. If he hits, the wound is not applied and instead Jurgen's meltagun wound is applied.

[mysterex]

Also, a rule for Jurgen:


"True Hero of the Imperium"
The first time each round that an enemy wounds Ciaphas Cain, roll d6. On a 4+, Jurgen fires his meltagun to interrupt the attack. If he hits, the wound is not applied and instead Jurgen's meltagun wound is applied.

Nice, but if we simply add this he's on his way to becoming a points monster. How about as a trade off we just give him a regular chainsword but up his WS by 1.

That way he'll be a character that you're less likely to get successful offensive attacks with but has a good defensive capability and improves morale - it seems more in line with the books.

[Melissia]

I wanted to increase his survivability and give him flavor. Cain should be as hard to kill as Celestine.

[Little Brother]

I would give him a las pistol and chainsword that are both master crafted, I know it's not the most effective pair of weapons but it is fluffy. He has his battered but trusty pistol he has trained with for years and is skilled with the sword. Maybe the sword could be rending?

I would give them both eternal hero, and Cain could have feel no pain to represent Jurgen bumping into him or shoving him out of the way.

I like the miasma suggestion for Jurgen, not sure how to work in a rule for being repellent to others but think all psychic powers or effects should not work within 6 inches of Jurgen.

Making them fearless would not represent Cain's willingnes to order "tactical retreats" so maybe a unit attavhed to him can choose to pass or fail a morale check.

[imperialsavant]

:) Well back from Queensland Holidays & Wii games, 40k games, Movies, 4 wheel Driving etc.
Now back to 40k reality!;)

As promised here are my original Caiphus stats for my Valhallan 597th Army.

CAIPHUS:
Points & stats as for Commisar Lord but does not count as such (also gives 5+ inv Refractor Field)
plus Carapace Armour+ 10 pts
Power Chainsword + 10 pts
Laspistol.
Special Rule= Paranora + 10 pts adds +1 to Initiative & Strength if charged.
TOTAL PTS = 100

JURGEN:
Vet Sgnt @10 pts
Carapace Armour + 10 pts.
Meltagun + 10 pts
Blunt + 20 pts (points & acts as per Psychic Hood rules)
Special rule-- "Miasma"-- Causes -1 to Morale of any Enemy within 6"
TOTAL PTS = 50

These were my original rules which were designed to reflect Caiphus's attributes as per the books but I think Bedroom General & Mellissa have some great ideas without making C & J overpowered.

I think I will give him Mastercrafted Chainsword to reflect his ability & some adaption of Jurgens Intervention plus the Pass or Fail Morale Tests.

I am also considering Jurgens Miasma to grant Enemy must roll as in Difficult Terrain if assaulting C & J.

Look forward to any further ideas!:)

[Melissia]

You are forgetting one fo the most important rules about Jurgen.

Jurgan and any model within 6" of Jurgen are completely immune to psychic powers and cannot be effected by them in any way, positively or negatively.

[imperialsavant]

You are forgetting one fo the most important rules about Jurgen.

Jurgan and any model within 6" of Jurgen are completely immune to psychic powers and cannot be effected by them in any way, positively or negatively.

:confused: Thought I covered that by giving Jurgan the "Blunt" rule based on a Physic Hood ?????:confused: