Multiple combats involving vehicles Q's

[Lord Azaghul]

Had an interesting issue come up in a game last night

A 10man guard squad of mine had assulted a chimera. Chimera, I managed to blow off a weapon and shake the thing. On his turn his Inquistor gets out with retinue, moves over so he can shoot/assult my 10 man squad.
He moves his guys in such a way to try and force me to pull off the vehicle (game is annihaltion).
Q1: Do I have to move my guys in get into base contact with his?
Per the vehicle and assult rules it looks like I am all ready ‘locked’ in an assualt

The end result of the positioning left my guys in tight file; basicly a 2” gap between the assulting unit and the chimera.
Q2: Do I have to attack a model I’m in base contact with or can I choice to attach a different unit if I’m within 2” or in b2b with one of my models that IS in b2b with the chimera?

We couldn’t really find a clear rule in the book saying what to do, but there is that ‘grot/sm’ combat example.

The biggest problem was the assulting a vehicle rules say I am essentially engaged, all my models can attack the tank so
Q3: Do I have to move ANY of my models even if assulted?
I obviously prefered to stay in place with my Sargs Melta bomb autohiting, but the sarg would was ended up in base contact (but still within 2” of the tank) with an inquision fella.

We both clearly had plans to use the assult rules to our advantage, but the rules didn’t really provide an acceptable answer to both of us. Thanks

[Nabterayl]

Had an interesting issue come up in a game last night

A 10man guard squad of mine had assulted a chimera. Chimera, I managed to blow off a weapon and shake the thing. On his turn his Inquistor gets out with retinue, moves over so he can shoot/assult my 10 man squad.
He moves his guys in such a way to try and force me to pull off the vehicle (game is annihaltion).
Q1: Do I have to move my guys in get into base contact with his?
Per the vehicle and assult rules it looks like I am all ready ‘locked’ in an assualt
Engaged with, yes. Locked with, no. See page 63: "Enemy models that are in base contact with a vehicle are not locked in combat ..."


The end result of the positioning left my guys in tight file; basicly a 2” gap between the assulting unit and the chimera.
Q2: Do I have to attack a model I’m in base contact with or can I choice to attach a different unit if I’m within 2” or in b2b with one of my models that IS in b2b with the chimera?
In 5th edition you no longer have to attack a model that you're in base contact with. The only restriction is which unit you're engaged with. So if you're in base to base with unit A but within 2" of a model within your squad in base to base with unit B, you can attack either.

We couldn’t really find a clear rule in the book saying what to do, but there is that ‘grot/sm’ combat example.


The biggest problem was the assulting a vehicle rules say I am essentially engaged, all my models can attack the tank so
Q3: Do I have to move ANY of my models even if assulted?
I obviously prefered to stay in place with my Sargs Melta bomb autohiting, but the sarg would was ended up in base contact (but still within 2” of the tank) with an inquision fella.
Under normal circumstances you would not have had to move, because you would be locked (see page 41). In this case, you had to make a reaction move, because you weren't locked in combat. However, per the above, your meltabomb sarge would still have been able to attack the Chimera if he was within 2" of a squad member who was in contact with the Chimera even after the mandatory reaction move.

[Lord Azaghul]

Thank you. As alway I appericate the clarity of your response.

[Doomgrin]

See the rulebook pg 41. The multiple combat example with the SM vs a unit of boyz and a unit fo gretch spell it out.

Models can only attack units they are in b2b with.

If a model in not in b2b, but within 2" of a model from their own unit they can attack what that model is in b2b with.
If they are in 2" of models from their own unit they are b2b to different units, they can split up there attacks as they see fit.

Remember that IC's that have joined the unit are treated as separate unit for assaults and they must be in b2b to attack (or be attacked) moving first to get into combat. You cannot use the 2" rule off of an IC as it is a different unit.

To address the issue of being drawn off the vehicle, the charging unit must move closest to closest and then anything else can move 6" to get into assaults. Then the defenders react moving up to 6" to get into the fight. This is where you can initiate multiple combats by moving those 6" into different units. You were full in your rights to remain in contact with the vehicle to continue beating on it. Every roll on the vehicle damage chart also equals 1 wound for combat resolution!

[Nabterayl]

Models can only attack units they are in b2b with.
My bad, the example on page 41 does pretty clearly specify that if you are in base to base contact with a unit, you may only attack that unit.

[Jwolf]

All models must try to get into BtB, and with each individual model of the opposing unit(s), if possible. So if the Inquisitor has charged your Guardsman in certain ways, some Guardsmen will have to get off the Chimera to get into BtB with retinue models that currently have no one in BtB. Any models in Btb with the Chimera and Inquisitorial retinue may target either unit.

[BuFFo]

You are never locked in combat with a vehicle sans WS, so yes, you can be pulled off the thing! :mad:

[Culven]

I'm still confused as to why some of the IG would be pulled out of BtB with the Vehicle. The Defenders React rule says ". . .must move any member of these units that is not yet in base contact with a foe . . .". Is the enemy vehicle not a foe? If the model is in base contact, I do not understand why it would be forced to move out of base contact in an attempt to reach base contact with a model from the assaulting unit.

As I understand the rules, only those not in BtB with the Chimera would be required to move in an attempt to reach base contact with the Inquisitor's unit. The fact that the models in BtB with the Chimera are not Locked has no bearing on the situation; base contact is the only qualifier.

[BuFFo]

I'm still confused as to why some of the IG would be pulled out of BtB with the Vehicle. The Defenders React rule says ". . .must move any member of these units that is not yet in base contact with a foe . . .". Is the enemy vehicle not a foe? If the model is in base contact, I do not understand why it would be forced to move out of base contact in an attempt to reach base contact with a model from the assaulting unit.

As I understand the rules, only those not in BtB with the Chimera would be required to move in an attempt to reach base contact with the Inquisitor's unit. The fact that the models in BtB with the Chimera are not Locked has no bearing on the situation; base contact is the only qualifier.

Because said unit is not locked in combat with the vehicle. The vehicle can drive away, the models can move away, heck, both units can still be shot at. There is nothing under 'Vehicles And Assaults - Successive Turns' that indicates that the unit and vehicle are ever locked together like any other traditional combat.

Simply put, the two units are not locked in combat, thus, a third unit can and will pull models off the vehicle.

I understand the wording on page 34 under Defenders React, but, for the entirety of the turn, being that then unit can move off the vehicle, the unit can be shot at, the vehicle can move away, the vehicle can be shot at, despite touching, the units are not 'locked' together in any way.

Honestly, now that I think about it, I could play it either way. personally, I would play it that you can and should move off the vehicle since you are not locked with said vehicle, but, if my opponent wanted to play it the other way, I would have zero issues doing so :)

[Jwolf]

In addition to not being locked with the vehicle, the Defenders React Rule requires the defenders to get into base to base with as many models of the attackers as possible.

[Culven]

In addition to not being locked with the vehicle, the Defenders React Rule requires the defenders to get into base to base with as many models of the attackers as possible.
Isn't that rule written with the assumption that the unit being charged is not already in combat with another unit? Also, applying your logic, would this then mean that if the unit being assauled was already in combat with another unit, the models would still need to be pulled from BtB in order to move as many defenders into BtB with the attackers as possible? :confused:

I still don't see any rules which would cause the models in BtB with the Chimera to move out of BtB. Locked and even Engaged status are not mentioned in Defenders React. Only "base contact" is mentioned, and then it is in the context that only models not in base contact with an enemy model must move in an attempt to reach base contact with the attackers. Any models already in base contact, even if it is with another unit, will remain where they are.

[Nabterayl]

Isn't that rule written with the assumption that the unit being charged is not already in combat with another unit? Also, applying your logic, would this then mean that if the unit being assauled was already in combat with another unit, the models would still need to be pulled from BtB in order to move as many defenders into BtB with the attackers as possible? :confused:
According to page 41, no - if you're already locked in combat with one unit, and assaulted by another unit, your reaction move requires you to get into base to base with either of the two (or more) units you are locked with.


I still don't see any rules which would cause the models in BtB with the Chimera to move out of BtB. Locked and even Engaged status are not mentioned in Defenders React. Only "base contact" is mentioned, and then it is in the context that only models not in base contact with an enemy model must move in an attempt to reach base contact with the attackers. Any models already in base contact, even if it is with another unit, will remain where they are.
It seems to me that page 41 should inform our reading of page 34. Page 34 says, as you correctly point out, "any member of these units that is not yet in base contact with a foe" must make a reaction move. But if that meant any foe, rather than a foe in the assaulting unit, then page 41 would be entirely superfluous. Clearly the authors did not feel that page 34 covered the situation of a unit in base to base contact with unit A that is assaulted by unit B; if they had, then page 41 wouldn't have been written. So page 34 must be talking about "a foe" in the assaulting unit.

Which means that it is page 41 that covers the situation of a unit in base contact with A (the Chimera) that is assaulted by B (the inquisitor). But page 41 doesn't apply to the situation where you're in base to base with a Chimera and assaulted by another unit, because you aren't locked in combat with the Chimera.

Which leaves us in the situation of a normal two-party assault, per page 34 (as read in light of page 41), where the defenders have to try to get into base to base with the assaulters.

I believe that's the logic - that's my logic, anyway.

[BuFFo]

And thats some darn good logic!