Need help choosing a Space Marines chapter

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Greetings lovely BOLS people. I need help choosing a chapter to play and collect. Here's how things currently stand:



I first started getting into 40k about 10 months ago, choosing Dark Angels as my chapter. However, I quickly learned that the DA codex is designed to be most effective running a bike army or a Terminator army, neither of which interests me. I have since sold off my army and am looking to start anew.



I love space marines. I'm certainly not interested in any other type of 40K faction, so let's not even bring that up.



With that in mind, here are my 5 biggest criteria for choosing a chapter:

-I don't want Space Wolves. I think the fur pelts are silly.

-I want a Chapter that excels at close combat.

-I don't want a chapter that needs lots of bikes to be successful.

-It can't be a Chapter that using pink or purple as its primary color.

-I would love to have a good variety of units so that I can play flexibly. I don't like massing a single type of unit (like Terms or bikes, a la Dark Angels)



I don't know enough about the various other chapters to have an idea of what I should collect. Last time I went purely on look, flavor, and fluff, and I was disappointed. I think I'll be happy with virtually any SM chapter as long as the models aren't wearing silly furs.



What should I go for?

[ElectricPaladin]

First of all, you need to decide which codex you are interested in. Although you can codex-leap to a limited degree - "today I'm using the Space Marines Codex, tomorrow Blood Angels, and after that... I dunno!" - you probably want to keep a specific codex in mind, especially as you are only starting out and don't want to confuse yourself.

It also sounds to me - and tell me if I'm wrong here - that you are interested in being at least a little bit fluffy here. You don't want to cherry pick the best from this codex and that codex and Ally them together to create a broken army. You want a codex you can call your own and a single unifying background for your army. That makes your life a lot simpler.

The current loyalist Space Marine codices are:

• Space Marines Codex: This book can be used to represent every Space Marine chapter that isn't mentioned elswhere. These rules are generally very versatile - you can play bike armies, foot armies, or invest heavily (though not exclusively) in other marine variants, like jump infantry or terminators. This is primarily a shooting army, though it's decent Initiative score and good durability mean that they can survive close combat, and they have some units that excel at it. If you like the idea of playing the mid-range firefight game with tough models and lots of tactical versatility, this is the army book for you. If you're interested in perusing the Chapter Tactics options for obscure and ill-known check out the Forgeworld Chapter Tactics document (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/FWchaptertactics.pdf). These chapters will all play, basically, like Space Marines, but some of them have cool color schemes, particularly interesting fluff, and neat Chapter Tactics rules that help to represent them on the tabletop.

• Blood Angels Codex: These guys are all about speed and aggression. They can be an all jump army - or all assault marines on foot, if that's your thing - and all their rhino-chassis vehicles (that's all ground vehicles except land raiders) are Fast. They have some interesting options to enhance the survivability and assault strength of their troops - basically, you can take both chaplains and apothecaries as Independent Characters to attach them to squads, also our apothecaries grant Furious Charge as well as Feel No Pain - and we have some unique units who are brutal in close combat. Overall, however, the Blood Angels codex suffers from being really old. That, plus the changes to assault in 6th Edition, make it very hard to play the army in ways that emphasize its uniqueness - but I've managed it once or twice.

• Dark Angels and Space Wolves: You've already dismissed these guys, so whatever. I don't like 'em much myself.

Honestly, from what you say, I think you'd enjoy the Blood Angels codex. You might need to wait a while for them to get a new book before you're really happy with them, but an army is a long-term investment, so that's ok. They've been struggling for even longer than I've been playing them, and I enjoy them just fine.

Then there's the matter of which chapter exactly you are playing. You can paint up your dudes however you like. The Blood Angels, for example, really like to be red, but there are successors that are darker red, brighter red, and one that's yellow. You can use the Blood Angels codex to represent a different chapter that happens to like fast vehicles and close combat... and have problems with blood thirst... and has squads of berserkers... and, yeah, it breaks down if you push on it too hard, but the option is still technically open.

Check out Lexicanum (http://www.lexicanum.com/) and 40kWiki (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Warhammer_40k_Wiki) for details and lore.

[Mr.Pickelz]

Black Templars or Blood Angels is what I think would fit your criteria.

[DWest]

Give a look to Black Templars-- they're Codex Marines, so they have access to all the kit in the book, excepting Librarians, and their unique Troop choice can amass 15 models with Bolt Pistol + CCW, and take a Land Raider Crusader to ride in. Their Chapter Master and named Chaplain also give out nice buffs to nearby assault units.

[ElectricPaladin]

I hadn't thought about Templars. Yeah, you might like them too.

[Joe Fixit]

What about Grey Knights ?

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Hey guys, thanks for the help, this is a ton of great info!

So what happened to the Black Templars codex? Did it get absorbed into the Space Marines codex?

I would like to focus on one codex, at least for now. One is plenty! If the Space Marines codex has more variety, that's probably what I'll purchase. I have a little bit of a hard time getting something like the Blood Angels codex and then playing an army that isn't Blood Angels. That doesn't seem to be an issue for most people, but I would like the characters in the codex, the art, the fluff, everything, to match up with what I have on the table.

Thanks for the link to the Forgeworld Chapter Tactics doc. I didn't know about that :)

[ElectricPaladin]

Hey guys, thanks for the help, this is a ton of great info!

So what happened to the Black Templars codex? Did it get absorbed into the Space Marines codex?

I would like to focus on one codex, at least for now. One is plenty! If the Space Marines codex has more variety, that's probably what I'll purchase. I have a little bit of a hard time getting something like the Blood Angels codex and then playing an army that isn't Blood Angels. That doesn't seem to be an issue for most people, but I would like the characters in the codex, the art, the fluff, everything, to match up with what I have on the table.

Thanks for the link to the Forgeworld Chapter Tactics doc. I didn't know about that :)

One thing to remember is that the Blood Angels codex is intended to represent Blood Angels successors as well, though that leaves you out of the special characters game (if you're being finicky, the book is entirely appropriate for successors, but all the named characters are Blood Angels).

To answer your question - yes, the Black Templars used to be their own codex, but were recently folded into the Space Marines codex.

You're welcome!

[Houghten]

(if you're being finicky, the book is entirely appropriate for successors, but all the named characters are Blood Angels).

Except Gabriel Seth of course.

Plus I think the Sanguinor shows up to help out successor chapters too, after all their blood is the blood of Sanguinius just as much as that encased in red armour...

[Gwhizz84]

I use the BA special characters in my successor army and just rename them, nothing says you cant have similar warriors in different chapters.

[khambatta]

Carcharodons. Fear, Rage after destroying an enemy unit, tac marines with chainswords, access to everything in the Space Marine dex... what's not to like? Plus you can either paint them in a dirty, gore-drenched style, or go with the old-school Space Sharks look.

edit - I forgot they have Tyberos. He's got some assault-focused special rules & lets you take a squad of LC Terminators as troops.

[Gleipnir]

Gonna have to second Blood Angels if an assault centric army is what you want few things match up better than a Death Company for the point cost

[ElectricPaladin]

I think you have a lot of choices to consider:

*• Blood Angels: Good assault generalists. They can do (almost) everything that ordinary marines can do. They have some great specialist tanks that do a good job of supporting the rest of the army in the assaults and short ranged firefights that they favor. They are great if you want a good mix of "uncontrolled berserkers" and "tools to support those uncontrolled berserkers." What I like about Blood Angels is that they are really good at "smart aggression." You don't just go full aggro mode and slam into your opponent. You have to pick your battles, maneuver skillfully, and use your special tools intelligently to win. But then, you win by smashing the crap out of your opponent with squads of black-clad maniacs with rocket packs and hammernators and dudes who are a lot like terminators, except they fly.

• Black Templars: My impression of these guys has always been that they are much more "full aggro" than "smart aggression." Also, you can't use librarians, which is kind of sad because psychic powers are fun. Also, they are more limited in terms of their uniqueness because, having been folded into the Space Marines codex, they lost a lot of the toys that once defined them, though they still have a couple of unique options.

• Carcharodons: I kinda like these guys, and their special rules are pretty nifty, but they are even more limited than the Black Templars, because they don't really have any unique rules at all... though, that said, their special rules do let them reimagine their tactical squads as a totally different kind of unit. I would totally dig painting these guys up with grey skin, maori tattoos, and red-brown blood splatter effects all over.

[Dalleron]

I hope you aren't casting space wolves to the side because of the models. They have great rules in that they have bolter pistol and ccw with counter charge. They are more flexible than a ba assault squad. They have possibly the best base troop for marines in the game, or used to at least. You can play them without the models I'm sure using bits and tac marines

[ElectricPaladin]

I think the OP has made it clear that while he's not a hardline purist, he's in the "play the game GW made" camp. So, I don't think he's interested in using the Space Wolves codex and none of their models, or using the Blood Angels codex for the Space Sharks.

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Wow, thanks for all the great responses. This has been super helpful.

It has always seems odd to me to get a codex like Space Wolves, and use all of its special "wolfy" rules, but then have models on the table with colors, weapons, names, etc. that belonged to a different chapter like Carcharodons. I'd rather just keep everything consistent if possible.

However, perhaps I should be more open using a codex like Space Wolves, because play style is just as important to me as models and fluff.

Are there any special rules for the many other chapters that exist out there? For instance, from looking at an image I found online of about 100 chapters, I like the colors/look of several models such as the Storm Warriors. If I want to play that chapter, I just choose a codex I want to use, and then go with those rules?

Also, I like the look of Raptors a lot. Why do they appear brown in some images but dark green in others? Is it just a desert camo? Here is the image (http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1357/69/1357696761273.png) I'm referring to. Raptors are actually on there twice and they look pretty brown to me.

[ElectricPaladin]

So, if the fluff matters to you at all, the Raptors are known as a patient and disciplined chapter who like to fight from a distance, tactically. They are quite reasonable, for Space Marines, and employ a lot of scouts, especially with sniper rifles.

That said, you can do whatever you like.

Personally, I like to have my codex and my army match up, and you can play that way very well. I know that GW has taken a lot of flak lately, but I try to have a little faith in them. They wrote the Blood Angels codex, and I'm playing Blood Angels successors... so I'll play Blood Angels. Like they were designed. And I'll win with 'em, too!

So, if I were you, and I was interested in playing Carcharadons, I'd do them with the rules presented: Codex marines, using the Chapter Tactics rules presented in the Forgeworld document.

Also, honestly, the Space Wolves codex wouldn't be a great match for the Carcharadons. The Space Wolves aren't really an assault army, though they have some nasty assaulty tricks. They're... honestly, they're kind of a weird counter-punch army that I don't really understand. They like to be in combat, but they have Counter-Attack so they like to be charged, and some of their best units are... a devastator variant?

Like I said - I don't understand them. Maybe somebody else can come in and explain them better.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that I think the Charcharadons would work better as presented (Codex marines but with assaulty tac squads) or with the Blood Angels codex (assault squads on foot as troops, in... I dunno, Land Raiders or something). Space Wolves are their own entirely weird thing, but I don't think they play as balls-out aggressive as either the Carcharadons do, or it seems like you want your codex to play.

[Houghten]

Also, I like the look of Raptors a lot. Why do they appear brown in some images but dark green in others? Is it just a desert camo? Here is the image (http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1357/69/1357696761273.png) I'm referring to. Raptors are actually on their twice and they look pretty brown to me.

Yes, it's camo. Raptors willl actually repaint their armour for maximum stealth instead of wandering around the battlefield in bright yellow.

[Nabterayl]

Are there any special rules for the many other chapters that exist out there? For instance, from looking at an image I found online of about 100 chapters, I like the colors/look of several models such as the Storm Warriors. If I want to play that chapter, I just choose a codex I want to use, and then go with those rules?
There are two prescribed methods for doing another chapter. The first is to check the Forge World chapter tactics update (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/FWchaptertactics.pdf) and see if the chapter is already represented in the rules. If it isn't, the next method is to find your chapter's progenitor chapter and use the progenitor chapter's Chapter Tactics and special character roster, with the successor chapter's paint scheme (don't forget the Forge World space marine special character update (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/C/Charcterupdate.pdf)). If the chapter you want doesn't have rules listed and doesn't a known progenitor, pick any codex or chapter tactics you like to represent its heritage. That's what you would do in the case of the Storm Warriors, whose founding chapter is unknown. On the other hand, the Emperor's Warbringers (for example) are known to be descendants of the Imperial Fists, and so would be represented using the Imperial Fists chapter tactics.

[jonsgot]

Another thing to remember is you need to paint them and some colours are easier than others. I would take a few in to gw and ask them if you can have a play with there paints .

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Okay so, just a few more things to clear up before I start researching the fluff more:

-The Space Wolves codex was mentioned as a codex that would not be well-suited to Carcharodons. What would be a good codex for them then? Maybe the Black Templars portion of codex: SM? From what's been said, it seems to me that BTs are the most agressive set of rules. I see Carcharodons are a successor chapter of Raven Guard, but no one has suggested them as a good codex/set of rules for the combat-oriented style I'm looking for.

-Do Black Templars have any successor Chapters?

-What types of special rules are there for Salamanders and Iron Hands?

[ElectricPaladin]

-The Space Wolves codex was mentioned as a codex that would not be well-suited to Carcharodons. What would be a good codex for them then? Maybe the Black Templars portion of codex: SM? From what's been said, it seems to me that BTs are the most agressive set of rules. I see Carcharodons are a successor chapter of Raven Guard, but no one has suggested them as a good codex/set of rules for the combat-oriented style I'm looking for.


Like I said, I think that the Charcharadons have great rules already. Check the Forgeworld Chapter Tactics document. Charcharadons can totally be standard codex marines, focus on either close combat options (ironclad dreadnoughts, melee centurions, terminators) with tactical squads that use the Charcharadon rules to be, basically, assault squads on foot. You can support them with inexpensive ranged options to help soften up the foe before melee, like sniper scouts or cheap heavy bolter devastators or tanks.

IMHO, the Black Templars have a lot of special rules that are deeply tied to the Black Templars way of war, like hordes of carapace-armored "neophytes" (think scouts kitted out for close combat in enormous squads), not being allowed to take librarians, and so on. That stuff would be pretty alien to the Charcharadons, who are technically a codex-compliant chapter, have librarians, etc.



-Do Black Templars have any successor Chapters?


Yes, there's a whole list.



-What types of special rules are there for Salamanders and Iron Hands?


Their chapter tactics are found in the Space Marines codex. IIRC, the flame, melta, and hammer weapons wielded by Salamanders are more effective. Iron Hands get 6+ Feel No Pain to represent the extra toughness afforded by their cybernetic implants, their techmarines are extra good at repairing vehicles, and their vehicles all self-repair, too.

[Charistoph]

-The Space Wolves codex was mentioned as a codex that would not be well-suited to Carcharodons. What would be a good codex for them then? Maybe the Black Templars portion of codex: SM? From what's been said, it seems to me that BTs are the most agressive set of rules. I see Carcharodons are a successor chapter of Raven Guard, but no one has suggested them as a good codex/set of rules for the combat-oriented style I'm looking for.

As been said, the Carcharodons have Chapter Traits in the freely downloadable pdf on Forgeworld's Download page. They are intended to be used with Codex: Space Marines unless otherwise noted.


-Do Black Templars have any successor Chapters?

None noted by official GW fluff. Doesn't mean they aren't any, just that they haven't bothered to say one way or the other. It also doesn't prevent YOUR DIY from using their Tactics, either.


-What types of special rules are there for Salamanders and Iron Hands?

Chapter Tactics in Codex: SM. Salamanders make good use and have good defences against flamers and really good at making stuff. Iron Hands have cybernetics and really good Techmarines. All detailed in the codex.

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Okay, honestly, I'm not looking for balls out "full aggro" so I don't think Carcharodons are the chapter for me. I much prefer the style of play where picking battles is important, as well as making full use of advantages, mobility, etc. to strike at the right time and right place.

I don't want to focus on big heavy stuff like Terms and Centurions. If I wanted Terminators I'd just go back to Dark Angels and have a Deathwing army. I would really like to focus mostly on infantry, and have the average space marine trooper be the core of the army.

So maybe a mechanized infantry army is more what I'm looking for. Seems like so far the Blood Angels are the best fit, but I have had people tell me that Iron Hands, Salamanders, and maybe White Scars are the best chapter tactics to use for that style of play. What do you say to that?

Thanks again. Enjoying this discussion :)

[ElectricPaladin]

So maybe a mechanized infantry army is more what I'm looking for. Seems like so far the Blood Angels are the best fit, but I have had people tell me that Iron Hands, Salamanders, and maybe White Scars are the best chapter tactics to use for that style of play. What do you say to that?


I've been leery of pushing the Blood Angels too hard because I know I'm biased - that's my 'dex, after all - but I do think you would enjoy them. Because they have fast transports, Blood Angels can really zip around the board, and that's not counting the fact that you can - if you chose - field nothing but assault squads with jump packs, who are transport-fast, but without the transport. If you put an assault squad on foot in a vehicle, you can make the vehicle just barely this side of free. If that vehicle is a razorback, it's also a decent weapons platform. So, you have the speed to chose your battles, which makes them - like I wrote before - a very tactically aggressive army.

I think you might enjoy Salamanders, but they don't do close combat in any particular way. Most of their focus is on melta and flame weapons, which are all short-range, but that doesn't make them better at close combat - it just means that they're going to end up in close combat a lot.

Iron Hands like their vehicles a lot. I think you'd enjoy them a lot more if you had written that you were a total tread-head and you want to fill the board with predators and land raiders. It sounds like you want the marines themselves to be doing most of the heavy lifting - and close combat. If you like tanks, but don't want to feel like your army is all tanks, the Blood Angels have some great vehicle options. They have their own predator pattern - the Baal predator, which can carry vicious anti-infantry weapons - and because all their rhino-chassis tanks are fast, they can get more use out of vanilla predators, vindicators, and whirlwinds than other chapters. And again, there's the problem where you like close combat, and the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics don't actually do anything for you, except making your dudes a little more durable. The Blood Angels codex can be exploited to give you army wide 5+ FNP (rather than 6+) and Furious Charge.

Don't do White Scars. You've already written that you don't want to rely on variant marines, like bikers. The White Scars are all about bikers. You will be frustrated.

So, I think Blood Angels - or one of their successors, I roll Knights of Blood myself - are it for you. They are the smart aggressive, enhanced mobility, close combat and short ranged firefight marines.

And they're the reasons the Orks think red ones go faster.

[Nabterayl]

I agree with people that doing White Scars without bikes is silly. As EP said, Salamanders are good at "close combat" in the military sense but not in the 40K sense. Their flame weapons are more effective (they force enemies to re-roll armor saves against them) and every character (including squad sergeants) gets a free master-crafted weapon of his choice. Those are nothing to sneeze at by any means, but they mostly boil down to more effective close-range shooting.

Iron Hands are tougher than regular marines but not harder hitting. They get a 6+ Feel No Pain roll to represent their bionics, their techmarines get bonuses to repair vehicles, and their characters and vehicles regenerate lost wounds/hull points (only relevant for characters with multiple wounds, of course, so mostly this only affects your HQ choices). They're the only chapter to give any bonuses at all to their vehicles, which is cool. If you plan to field a lot of mechanized infantry they could be a sensible choice, but I think it mostly makes sense if you plan to field a lot of vehicles.

In my opinion, you've got three options left to consider: Blood Angels (or successors), Space Wolves, and Mantis Warriors.

You can see the Mantis Warriors chapter tactics for free yourself on the Forge World document I linked to earlier. Their chapter tactics are, in my opinion, a nice balance between tactical acumen (re-rolling Seize the Initiative, Move Through Cover, access to Divination) and close combat prowess (Furious Charge when charging from cover - which is easy to move through due to Move Through Cover - and Hammer of Wrath for infantry). Unlike some of the Forge World chapter tactics (e.g., the Raptors' Legendary Marksmen), I think the Mantis Warrior rules are actually good - as good as anything in the space marine codex (a free S4 I10 auto-hit for every infantry model on the front line is nothing to sneeze at, nor is access to Divination). Given the choices you've described, they'd be my suggestion if you wanted to use the base space marine codex. Admittedly, you'd need to use a librarian to get the most out of their rules.

Space Wolves are, in my opinion, better at close combat than Blood Angels. They aren't as fast, but they are better in close combat on the offensive and way better on the defensive. Due to their squads receiving Counter-Attack, they are head and shoulders better than other space marine chapters at dealing with counter-charges. They also have by far the most customization options for characters (both squad leaders and HQ). They have more reliable Outflanking than other chapters, and their devastator marines are both better and cheaper than other chapters', giving you an attractive trooper-based fire support option. I think you get more close combat punch and sacrifice less ranged versatility by choosing Space Wolves over Blood Angels. However, they aren't any faster than normal space marines, and you might find it a stretch to use some of their units, such as Thunderwolf Cavalry. I've seen some pretty awesome conversions turning Thunderwolf Cavalry into marines riding giant lizards or giant lions, but if you fundamentally object to marines riding anything, I guess they would be off the table. If you go with a chapter whose progenitors are unknown, I would recommend Space Wolves for you.

Blood Angels are not so much the close combat marines as they are the fast marines, who (thankfully!) receive some bonuses that are relevant to the short-range situations a fast army is likely to find itself in. They aren't as good in close combat as Space Wolves, but they have more ways to get into close combat faster than Space Wolves do (Wolves, by contrast, sacrifice no shootiness for their close combat prowess). Their vehicles are faster and capable of shooting more weapons on the move at full accuracy than other chapters' (and somewhat more expensive as a result, but the premium is well priced for what you get). Though less effective in close combat than Space Wolves as an army, they definitely have access to the single best close combat unit in the game (Death Company). And of course if you like jump packs, there are really only three chapters in the game who can make jump marines of any sort worthwhile: Blood Angels, Fire Hawks, and Raven Guard (in that order, IMHO). On the other hand, if you don't like jump packs, some of their options (such as Sanguinary Guard) will be less attractive to you.

Anything we can help narrow down further?

[Nabterayl]

Addendum: When it comes to close combat prowess, here's my take on the lynchpin strategies of my three recommended chapters:

Mantis Warriors: gain +1S when charging out of or over any kind of cover, and gain a free S4 I10 autohit for every model that gets into base contact with an enemy model. The fact that it's an auto-hit makes it significantly better than just gaining an extra Attack on the charge, as does the fact that it strikes at I10.

Space Wolves: come with a Melee weapon, a bolt pistol, and another gun on almost every model in the army. Have Counter-Attack on almost every model in the army. Characters are highly customizable with excellent wargear options even by space marine standards, and both Wolf Guard and Thunderwolf Cavalry are almost equally customizable. Counter-Attack means there are no easy charge targets in this army. The fact that their primary melee strength comes from almost everybody being able to dual-wield without sacrificing shooting versatility means that they are much better than most other marines if combat drags on into second and subsequent rounds - they are less dependent on charge-based bonuses for their killiness. Their army list is somewhat better than the other space marine lists, in my opinion, at giving you the option to tool up specialized melee units as either bully units or melee specialist hunters.

Blood Angels: have access to the all-important Sanguinary Priests, who create a bubble that grants both Feel No Pain and Furious Charge (+1S on the charge). They have access to cheap assault units with lousy shooting (assault marines) and really good assault units (Sanguinary Guard and Death Company), but I think the Sanguinary Priests are really the lynchpin if you want to make a Melee-focused Blood Angels army (EP, correct me if I'm wrong here). While the priests' bubble moves with the priests (and goes away when the priests die), as EP noted, a good player can create a sanguinary priest "network" that covers basically the entire army. Compared to the Space Wolf strategy of everybody being armed to the teeth, this can result in sort of a toss-up. On the charge, the Blood Angels will either be equally good at shooting but worse in assault (I'd rather have two Melee weapons than a single Melee weapon and S5) or worse at shooting but better in assault (a Blood Angels assault marine, who gives up his boltgun to have two Melee weapons but is also S5, is better in assault than a Space Wolf who only has two Melee weapons). In subsequent rounds, the Blood Angels will be tougher (because they have Feel No Pain) but lose their edge in killiness (because they only get bonuses in assault on the charge). And of course Space Wolves are much less sensitive to being charged.

In terms of access to really awesome close combat units, I think you have kind of a toss-up. Blood Angels have access to the standard terminator types, which I assume you are fairly familiar with, Sanguinary Guard, and Death Company. Sanguinary Guard have jump packs, 2+ armor, and power weapons, making them what I call a "bully" unit - they'll do okay but ultimately lose against a unit like TH/SS terminators, but set them loose on a squad of regular guys and they'll demolish them while receiving barely a scratch (and their jump packs make it easier to find squads of regular guys to bully). Blood Angels also have Death Company, who are pound for pound the best assault troops in the game (with 2A base, an additional 2A on the charge, the option to dual-wield, Furious Charge all the time, Feel No Pain all the time, the option to buy power weaponry, the option to buy jump packs, and the option to have up to 30 guys in a single squad). Death Company are technically more of a bully unit than a specialist CC unit, but you get so much punch for your points and they can come in such huge numbers that they can take on pretty much anything. On the other hand, you're limited to a single squad of them per army.

Space Wolves have access to Wolf Guard and Thunderwolf Cavalry. Both are able to be kitted out either as bully units or as real CC specialists. Thunderwolf Cavalry are T5 W2 A4 and Rending from their mounts (who also grant them Hammer of Wrath at S5). This gives them generalized protection and enough offensive punch to hurt most normal squads. Only one rider can take a power weapon (though five S5 Rending attacks for the "normal" riders is by no means bad), but every rider can take a storm shield, making them quite tough. Wolf Guard are even more customizable. Every model has access to virtually every piece of wargear imaginable, and can be split off to lead individual squads in the same way that normal codices have sergeants (meaning that Space Wolf "sergeants" are hugely customizable). They can take terminator armor, jump packs, bikes, or regular power armor, power weapons, and storm shields, letting you kit them out as a bully unit, a CC specialist unit, or whatever you want. They also have access to the Space Wolf "specialty" close combat weapons: frost blades (power weapons that have +1S in addition to their normal properties) and wolf claws (lightning claws that can choose to re-roll hits instead of re-rolling wounds, depending on which is better for the situation).

[ElectricPaladin]

Blood Angels: have access to the all-important Sanguinary Priests, who create a bubble that grants both Feel No Pain and Furious Charge (+1S on the charge). They have access to cheap assault units with lousy shooting (assault marines) and really good assault units (Sanguinary Guard and Death Company), but I think the Sanguinary Priests are really the lynchpin if you want to make a Melee-focused Blood Angels army (EP, correct me if I'm wrong here). While the priests' bubble moves with the priests (and goes away when the priests die), as EP noted, a good player can create a sanguinary priest "network" that covers basically the entire army. Compared to the Space Wolf strategy of everybody being armed to the teeth, this can result in sort of a toss-up. On the charge, the Blood Angels will either be equally good at shooting but worse in assault (I'd rather have two Melee weapons than a single Melee weapon and S5) or worse at shooting but better in assault (a Blood Angels assault marine, who gives up his boltgun to have two Melee weapons but is also S5, is better in assault than a Space Wolf who only has two Melee weapons). In subsequent rounds, the Blood Angels will be tougher (because they have Feel No Pain) but lose their edge in killiness (because they only get bonuses in assault on the charge). And of course Space Wolves are much less sensitive to being charged.

Yes. Basically, you can take up to three priests as a single Elites choice, but despite being a single FOC choice, they are Independent Characters and can be kitted out individually. For example, in my last army list, I had a jump priest hanging out with my assault marines, a foot priest hanging out with my hammernators, and then my death company (who already get Furious Charge and Feel No Pain as part of their profile, so they don't need an attendant priest). Overall, the result was that my entire army had Furious Charge and Feel No Pain all the time, which was awesome.

Additionally...

It's worth noting that death company and sanguinary guard look more or less like regular marines, albeit with more elaborate armor and - in the case of the sanguinary guard - awesome wrist-mounted storm bolter and winged jump packs. So, if you don't like bikers and terminators, if you're playing blood angels, you still feel like you're painting up ordinary marines, even though they fill special roles in your army.

I think that Nabterayl is on to something when he notes that the Blood Angels are all about getting the charge off and either winning in the first round or so crippling your opponent that you will win in a subsequent round by dint of your victory in the first round, while Space Wolves are as happy being charged as they are doing the charging, and have the tools they need to win the fight via attrition. That said, army-wide Feel No Pain is great for attrition battles, so even the Blood Angels can win that way if they have to.

[James Stagg]

Not coming from the play aspect but rather the fluff aspect I would definitely say Blood Angels. You may struggle with them playing competitive games but once you get into the fluff they are the best chapter. EASILY.

Everyone picks on them for being emo pretty boys, but they have the most depth and character. They are a hero that is struggling to stay a hero. The other chapters lack that, I think. Like the Wolves they take their job of protecting mankind seriously, but they have the Flaw that makes them instinctively want to do the opposite of that. That they fight their instinct to do their job makes for the best story.

Dark Angels have the struggle but aren't as heroic (they'll kill anyone or do anything to keep their secret)
Space Wolves are written by a ten year old- "my guys are the best at everything and their only flaw just makes them better" Real 'my weakness is strong' type kitsch
Ultramarines (and most other codex chapters) and their successors are boring. No flaws, no struggles, no character. Though Raven Guard can be pretty cool, especially if you played up their slow gene degradation.

The Blood Angels are all about saving mankind but struggle with how delicious mankind is (the liquid stuff inside of them) And if you particularly like an aspect of their flaw, you can play a successor chapter that focusses on that;
Blood Angels for the nobility/ pomp
Flesh Tearers for the rage
Blood Drinkers for the thirst (and once you read Death of Integrity...oh my god the possibilities for story games are absurd)
Angels Sanguine for the secrecy
Angels Encarmine for the hubris/ pride.

Choose character and story, choose Blood Angels.

[Sargejohnson]

Personally I haven't been playing 40k for all that long. I believe I started some 6 months after 5th ed was released. Before that I had played a few games of Necromunda, but that was pretty much it. My first army was Orks, and eventually I uncovered the story of Armageddon. From that point on I was pretty much owned by GW - hook, line, and sinker. So I found out what armies rocked up to help try and save Armageddon from the orks. Space marines upon space marines upon space marines. At the time my local club was probably 5 space marines players to every non-space marine army (including Guard) so I figured out what armies they all had and needed to find something different. At that point in my career, I hadn't gotten the full hang of the rules, and my orks were even losing to the ancient Tau codex, so I thought... Everyone with space marines seems to be winning... SO I went into GW and looked around and eventually worked out that the only army that no one had was Black Templar. So I quickly bought the SM army box, and a couple boxes of Templar conversion bits and got down to making up my army. I ended up picking them because they were an unknown quantity in my club, they had a unique and awesome look about them, and they also had a space marine statline, but different rules to make them more of a challenge, and they played into a fluff theme that I was (and am still) very fond of. (Not to mention some pretty nifty Black Library books about them, but those came out way after I made my choice about the army)

These days, I'm still rocking the 4th edition Black Templars codex because I feel they've lost so much by being absorbed into the Space Marines codex that I would be disappointed to play them. Plus, 4th edition codex challenge still exists, even more so now in 6th ed. That being said, for being an assault based army they do take a serious beating with overwatch. Or maybe that's just my crappy dice, hard to say for sure.

At the end of the day, it just depends on you... I'd suggest if you only want one army, that you play some "counts as" battles with your friends, and try out the various play-styles before picking one that fits you. I don't know where you live, but starting and then selling off armies is typically a massive cash loss. Even if they are fully painted.

[Joe Pineapples]

Ah, Crimson Fists? No pelts, Scoring Sternguard, not big on bikes, no pink or purple, on the whole a well rounded chapter without the whole flagellation/ I'm not worthy fluff you get with Imperial Fists and Black Templars.

[ElectricPaladin]

Not coming from the play aspect but rather the fluff aspect I would definitely say Blood Angels. You may struggle with them playing competitive games but once you get into the fluff they are the best chapter. EASILY.

Everyone picks on them for being emo pretty boys, but they have the most depth and character. They are a hero that is struggling to stay a hero. The other chapters lack that, I think. Like the Wolves they take their job of protecting mankind seriously, but they have the Flaw that makes them instinctively want to do the opposite of that. That they fight their instinct to do their job makes for the best story.

Dark Angels have the struggle but aren't as heroic (they'll kill anyone or do anything to keep their secret)
Space Wolves are written by a ten year old- "my guys are the best at everything and their only flaw just makes them better" Real 'my weakness is strong' type kitsch
Ultramarines (and most other codex chapters) and their successors are boring. No flaws, no struggles, no character. Though Raven Guard can be pretty cool, especially if you played up their slow gene degradation.

The Blood Angels are all about saving mankind but struggle with how delicious mankind is (the liquid stuff inside of them) And if you particularly like an aspect of their flaw, you can play a successor chapter that focusses on that;
Blood Angels for the nobility/ pomp
Flesh Tearers for the rage
Blood Drinkers for the thirst (and once you read Death of Integrity...oh my god the possibilities for story games are absurd)
Angels Sanguine for the secrecy
Angels Encarmine for the hubris/ pride.

Choose character and story, choose Blood Angels.

I'd like to second this. I love the heroic and tragic element of the Blood Angels. More than any other chapter, the Blood Angels - and to a varying degree, their successors, want to be nice. No other chapter embodies that desire - for some, like the Salamanders, it's pretty easy, while others, like the Black Templars, have no interest in mercy or compassion - as much as the Blood Angels do. Sanguinius was an Astarte's Primarch, in the sense that he knew the names and daily concerns of his men. He wept for them when they died in battle.

The Blood Angels want to fight for mankind out of pure, heroic selflessness.

But the are cursed. Damned by powers beyond their control or comprehension. They thirst for blood like some kind of warp-spawned nightmare. They must struggle every day with the desire to give in, to become a monster. Only in battle can they give voice to the screaming rage that has burrowed deep into their souls. They take refuge in pride, in all the pomp and ritual afforded to them as the Emperor's Astartes... but that isn't enough to hold the beast at bay.

Personally, I dig it. The Space Wolves don't really struggle against any kind of curse. The Dark Angels are - ultimately - arrogant jerks who could just let it go already and disavow the crimes of a previous generation, but for their pride. But the Blood Angels... they're tragic. They will fight to the last Astartes to protect humanity, but in the end, they must also protect humanity from themselves.

That's part of how I play my Knights of Blood, though their rage is the rage of the purist - of the idealist. In my force's personal fluff, their "bloodsoaked rampage" was basically them deciding that they were no longer going to limit their depredations to xenos and Chaos and started slaughtering anyone they viewed as unjust or corrupt, including planetary governments and inquisitors. That's what got them excommunicated, but they see that as no reason to stop!

[vigbrand]

I would suggest the Blood Ravens or one of their founding relatives. I like them..close-combat is their forte, and the scouts company is the only one usually using bikes. They do have TONS of Librarians and such as they are one of the heaviest pysker enhanced chapter I know off, other than the Grey Knights. What codex to use I cant really say as the only ones I am familiar with is Grey Knights, Ultramaries, and the Furry Space Wolves, who I like. Good luck!

[DariusAPB]

I'm not going to say what I think is best for you, but rather will give my reasoning. First of all. I hate painting red. There goes Blood Angels. Painting black is as boring as Sin, there goes templars. My first army was all black and suckily painted, this was 2nd ed. Next was Dark Angels, shooty space marines are my style. I started Crimson fists due to Pedro and sternguad in 5th and they are great, consider Sentinels of Terra for close order bolters, and Lysander is a close combat BEAST.. My current Space marine chapter (though my Crimson fists are updated) are the Raptors - mechanized with razorbacks. Lias has proven to be a fantastic psychological weapon against my opponents with his special rules and the rending bolters is sweet. This said these guys are very ranged combat orientated, still i'd recommend them. I'd like to point out that while some chapters have better synergy than others you always have options on how to play, so really you can just pick a colour scheme and then pick a chapter tactics. Then use what you want to use. I see a lot of people have suggested Carchrodons also, very good choice based on your criteria.

One question I gotta ask is what kind of game do you want to play, Mechanized, drop pod assault, jump packs, terminator heavy, veteran heavy, scout heavy? Are you wanting to lead with a Special character, chaplain, librarian, Master of the forge? I get you like assault, so Templars, Blood Angels, Wolf wolf wolves, and Carchadons are nice. If you like space magic, then Mantis warriors have a neat special character, as do the Ultramarines. Mantis Warriors also have some neat rules for assault. If you want a holy crusade motif, then Templars are awesome (I just hate their colour scheme - boring to paint).

[chadsteam]

Black Templars! One of my favorite twists on the standard Space Marine unit is taking a 16 model unit and assaulting out of a Land Raider Crusader. This close combat unit consists of 10 Marines (Initiates), 5 Scouts (Neophytes) and the Emperor's Champion. You can substitute with a Chaplain or Techmarine to fit your play style. The rest of your army can be made up of a variety of units to fit what you are looking for. You are not locked down to one list or play style to be successful.

[DavidTQ]

You really don't have to use the specified models and "fluff" to go with a codex to run that codex.

Personally I love Wolf pelts :), I also love dark angel robes. I hate the baby blue space wolf colours. I therefore came up with my own chapter. and to be fair creating its back story is a really interesting part of the hobby for me.

I came up with what I wanted visually and then created their story around that. So my chapter is way out by the maelstrom, at some point they have had a schism within the chapter so half the chapter are ferocious barbarian (space wolves) and the other half ultra pious emperor worshippers.

There was an entire company lost within the warp (hazards of the maelstrom) half of which turned to slaneesh worship and the other half hunting them (giving me a nice little slaneesh noise marine army \ fallen and a space wolves 13th company).

Their home world is a feral human outpost in the midst of a massive ork empire (lots of them out near the maelstrom), the recruits are selected from regular humans who manage to kill an ork in hand to hand combat taking their axe as a trophy (my army features massive amounts of ork axe conversions).

My armies colours are based around the old snot green with some weathering effects (the more slaaneshi marines having some flourescent greens on a black base..) Having the same colours across the different factions of the army allows me to swap models between armies at will.

I can run codex dark angels, space wolves, space marines and chaos with the same models all very much what you see is what you get. And I have an army with my own character.

[The Imperial Fist]

Back when Dark Angels were made obsolete by C:SM in 4th I decided to start collecting a new chapter. My only criteria was not Ultramarines. The choice ended up being made by fluff. I love the fluff of both the Black Templars and Imperial Fists. Both match my own personality in certain ways but in the end I think the Fists more so. Guys that never back down from a fight, no matter the odds or cost. Stubborn and intractible. Tougher than the average marine (see HH books for references from Fabius on that). Not to mention they were there with the Emperor on Terra for the final battle, Sigismund is my single favourite character in 40k.

[Ezaviel]

I am kind of suprised no one suggested Raven Guard.

Strike from the Shadows: They get scout and stealth in the first turn. So they can reposition after deployment, and get bonus cover saves in the first turn.
Winged Deliverance: Jump pack marines get to reroll Hammer of Wrath, and they can charge with their jump packs.

They wear black armour with white details, and are a stealth specialist army.

From Lexicanium:
The Raven Guard are known for hitting weak points in enemy defences hard and they perform lightning strike upon locations of tactical importance to cripple their enemy. The Raven Guard disdain the notion of recklessly charging into enemy ranks. This differentiates their tactics from those of the Blood Angels. The Raven Guard rely heavily on their Scouts for pinpointing enemy positions and to scout for good drop sites. Because of their hit and run tactics they also make extensive use of Assault Squads. The Tactical Squads of the Raven Guard are often deployed via Thunderhawks or Drop Pods. The favorite weapons of the Raven Guard Commanders are the Lightning Claws and it is a common sight that their command squads also come equiped with these weapons in addition to their Jump Packs.

Raven Guard Captains are fiercely independent, and it's incredibly rare for the chapter to fight as a whole. Individual companies are completely autonomous and are quick to lend their aid to imperial commanders across the galaxy, with or without the sanction of their Chapter Master. Such behaviour has led to some to question the Raven Guard's soundness, but most recognise that such fluidity of command proves the presence of formidable discipline, not its absence.

Due to their specialised combat style, the Raven Guard makes less use of heavier vehicles and tanks (such as the Land Raider and Predator) than most chapters.

I guess we are ignoring them because they can be said to overly focus on Assault Marines?

[Killingtimegaming]

I would say start a chapter that you don't see a lot in your gaming circles. In mine I don't see a lot of crimson fists or salamanders. I have also never seen an aurora chapter.

[Nabterayl]

I'd been avoiding Raven Guard myself because I wasn't sure how the OP feels about assault marines, yeah.

[ElectricPaladin]

Hopefully the OP will chime in soon. If he doesn't like jump packs, he probably shouldn't be playing Blood Angels, either. At that point, I'd direct him back towards Black Templars or Mantis Warriors or recommend he reconsider the Carcharadons. You can do Blood Angels purely with foot assaulters and cheap transports - I've done that from time to time, and it's plenty fun - but you're missing out a lot if that's all that interests you. As something to add to your collection and play around with, the razorback rush army isn't bad, but I wouldn't recommend Blood Angels to anyone who is categorically certain that they don't like jump packs..

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Wow guys, this discussion is incredible. I want to shout out a loud clear THANK YOU for everyone that has participated and offered their thoughts. Really enjoying this :)

Let me address all the new points of the conversation one at a time:

-ElectricP: I could tell you were a fan of Blood Angels so I pushed you a bit for info on other chapters. I appreciate you having objective opinions to share. I have thought about Blood Angels quite a bit and I'm strongly considering them or a successor chapter (I happen to like the colors of the Lamenters better than just plain red. I'd probably take the dull yellow all the way to a bone/cream color though.)

-Sounds like White Scars are out if they need bikes.

-Space Wolves do sound fun. I think i'd kinda dislike all the furry art and fluff, but it'd be worth it to put up with that if it makes the game awesome. Do they only have the 1 successor chapter of equally wolvish flavor? I'd definitely be willing to play some "counts as" stuff before buying too many more models just to try it out. Buying a used codex on ebay and then selling it a few weeks later shouldn't incur too much of a loss, and it would potentially save me from going through the same thing I'm experiencing right now.

-Interesting ideas on the Blood Angels having the best fluff. Definitely worth noting. Also worth noting here is that I enjoyed the comments about creating a chapter from DavidTQ. I'm still keeping that in consideration as well, although at the moment I am leaning toward playing a chapter that goes along fairly closely with an existing codex or set of chapter tactics.

-Yeah, so no one had really mentioned Crimson Fists or Imperial Fists. What are the unique rules in the Imperial Fists chapter tactics?

-Hadn't heard of Blood Ravens. Looks like their founding chapter is unknown. Is that correct? So don't have an idea of what codex to use, though seems like "Blood" Angels might be a natural fit.

-DariusAPB: what codex do you use for your Raptors? I have thought for some time now that I would love to have some brown marines and these guys would fit the bill perfectly. But they are successors of Raven Guard and no one had mentioned them until a few minutes ago, and in passing earlier today as a chapter that had kinda cool fluff. I was kinda under the impression that they needed bikes...? Maybe I'm wrong there. As to your question about play style, I'm actually wanting to do mechanized infantry. I do also highly enjoy drop pods...which is something I tried to do with Dark Angels and which failed pretty badly :) I want to have good balance, so spamming a single type of unit, like all Terminators, sounds boring. I would like the regular ole foot soldier to make up the majority of the army, having various fun other units as support.

-Jump Packs aren't my favorite, so maybe this should rule out the Blood Angels codex (no decision yet though; still considering it as I stated above). I wouldn't mind having some jump packs, but I don't want them to be the focus of my army.

Whew! Thanks for hanging in and reading all of this :) Keep the comments rolling in!

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Also, if I wanted to play Mantis Warriors, wouldn't the default codex be Space Marines with White Scars chapter tactics? I realize that it's not a requirement to stay within the lineage of the founding chapter, but I am wanting to stay as true to the fluff as I can in that sense. I don't want to choose Mantis Warriors and then to the Blood Angels codex, for instance.

[Ezaviel]

-Yeah, so no one had really mentioned Crimson Fists or Imperial Fists. What are the unique rules in the Imperial Fists chapter tactics?

Imperial Fists get Bolter Drill (re-roll 1s to hit with bolt weapons) and their Devestators/Centurion Devs get Tank Hunter and bonus damage vs buildings. Crimson Fists are descendents of the Imperial Fists, so use the same chapter tactics.

Crimson Fists get a chapter master who can make Sternguard into Scoring Units.

Imperial Fists in the fluff are big on Seiges and Fortifications, their Primarch was in charge of the Defence of the Imperial Palace in the Heresy. Both chapters are big on the codex, but Crimson Fists are very tactically flexibile, no preference towards a type of unit really. I personally feel that the Crimson Fists are a bit more "down to earth" and human than many other chapters. In one of the Crimson Fists novels Chapter Master Kantor (iirc) puts the whole army at risk to slow down the march so the frail and old civilians dont get left behind to die (even carrying one himself).



-Hadn't heard of Blood Ravens. Looks like their founding chapter is unknown. Is that correct? So don't have an idea of what codex to use, though seems like "Blood" Angels might be a natural fit.

In the fluff the Ravens actually use the fact that people tend to assume that they are Blood Angel descendants as a smoke screen for the fact that they don't even know who their own primarch is. It is strongly hinted that they are the illicit descendants of the Traitor Legion the Thousand Sons.

Their "thing" is collecting knowledge, being secretive, and having a lot more Librarians than any other chapter.



-DariusAPB: what codex do you use for your Raptors? I have thought for some time now that I would love to have some brown marines and these guys would fit the bill perfectly. But they are successors of Raven Guard and no one had mentioned them until a few minutes ago, and in passing earlier today as a chapter that had kinda cool fluff. I was kinda under the impression that they needed bikes...? Maybe I'm wrong there. ...

-Jump Packs aren't my favorite, so maybe this should rule out the Blood Angels codex (no decision yet though; still considering it as I stated above). I wouldn't mind having some jump packs, but I don't want them to be the focus of my army.

There are Forge World Chapter Tactics for the Raptors that are different to the Raven Guard. But people may not like you using it, because its Forge World. They get the same Strike From the Shadows rule as Raven Guard, but instead of the Jump pack stuff, they get Legendary Marksmen (if they don't move they can choose to fire their Boltguns/Bolt pistols as a Heavy 1, Rending).

The Raven Guard are big on Jump Packs, drop pods and scouts, not so much on bikes, thats more a White Scars thing.

[Nabterayl]

-Sounds like White Scars are out if they need bikes.
They don't need bikes, but their chapter tactics are that everybody gets Hit & Run, and their bikes (i) automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests, (ii) get +1 to their Jink cover saves and (iii) get +1S to their Hammer of Wrath hits. So if you don't use bikes, you're not getting very much out of their chapter tactics.


-Space Wolves do sound fun. I think i'd kinda dislike all the furry art and fluff, but it'd be worth it to put up with that if it makes the game awesome. Do they only have the 1 successor chapter of equally wolvish flavor? I'd definitely be willing to play some "counts as" stuff before buying too many more models just to try it out. Buying a used codex on ebay and then selling it a few weeks later shouldn't incur too much of a loss, and it would potentially save me from going through the same thing I'm experiencing right now.
So far as we know the Space Wolves have only one successor chapter, the Wolf Brothers, and that chapter may have died off along with most of VI Legion. It's a small stretch, but if I were going to do a Space Wolves chapter, I'd pick a chapter with unknown founders and just use the the Space Wolves codex to represent them (you can find a sortable list here (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Loyal_Space_Marine_Chapters_(List)#.UwLW9PldV8E)). I say it's a small stretch because chapters with unknown progenitors are normally assumed to use one of the sets of chapter tactics found in Codex: Space Marines, but if you can use Black Templar chapter tactics to represent a chapter's unknown progenitors, I see no reason why you can't use Space Wolf, Blood Angels, or Dark Angels chapter tactics too.


-Yeah, so no one had really mentioned Crimson Fists or Imperial Fists. What are the unique rules in the Imperial Fists chapter tactics?
Crimson Fists and Imperial Fists are an unusual situation in that they share the same chapter tactics but have different special character options. The chapter tactics are re-rolling To Hit rolls of 1 when firing any kind of bolt weapon using standard ammunition (does not apply to vehicles, sadly), and devastator and centurion devastator squads have both Tank Hunters (re-roll failed armor penetration rolls) and add 1 to their results on the building (not vehicle) damage table. Those are certainly very strong chapter tactics for an infantry-based army, but they have nothing in particular to do with close combat. I think that's why nobody has mentioned them yet (even though Darnath Lysander, the Imperial Fists special character, happens to be a close combat beast).


-Hadn't heard of Blood Ravens. Looks like their founding chapter is unknown. Is that correct? So don't have an idea of what codex to use, though seems like "Blood" Angels might be a natural fit.
It's unknown; that's correct. The thing that distinguishes the Blood Ravens is their heavy use of librarians, which people go back and forth on as to how best to represent. Space Wolves get you the option for the most psykers in your army. Blood Angels let you have psychic dreadnoughts. Mantis Warriors let your librarians have access to an extra discipline, and a librarian special character. Ultramarines also gives you access to a librarian special character. Grey Knights makes your entire army psychic (though personally I think that's overdoing it - the Blood Ravens may lean on their librarians heavily, but that's a far cry from every marine being a psyker).


-DariusAPB: what codex do you use for your Raptors? I have thought for some time now that I would love to have some brown marines and these guys would fit the bill perfectly. But they are successors of Raven Guard and no one had mentioned them until a few minutes ago, and in passing earlier today as a chapter that had kinda cool fluff. I was kinda under the impression that they needed bikes...? Maybe I'm wrong there. As to your question about play style, I'm actually wanting to do mechanized infantry. I do also highly enjoy drop pods...which is something I tried to do with Dark Angels and which failed pretty badly :) I want to have good balance, so spamming a single type of unit, like all Terminators, sounds boring. I would like the regular ole foot soldier to make up the majority of the army, having various fun other units as support.
Raptors have their own chapter tactics and their own special character, but otherwise use Codex: Space Marines. Their chapter tactics are that all regular-sized infantry (not Bulky, etc.) gain Scout, and have Stealth on the first turn of the game, and they have the option of treating any boltgun or bolt pistol as a heavy 1 rending weapon, if the shooter doesn't move.


Also, if I wanted to play Mantis Warriors, wouldn't the default codex be Space Marines with White Scars chapter tactics? I realize that it's not a requirement to stay within the lineage of the founding chapter, but I am wanting to stay as true to the fluff as I can in that sense. I don't want to choose Mantis Warriors and then to the Blood Angels codex, for instance.
If you wanted to play Mantis Warriors, you'd take the space marines codex but the Mantis Warriors chapter tactics, and have access to the Mantis Warrior special character. That's how all the Forge World chapter tactics are designed to operate - you take the army list of a given book (almost always Codex: Space Marines) but with a specified set of chapter tactics and, usually, one or more special characters. These "special" chapter tactics override the usual rule that a successor chapter uses its progenitor's chapter tactics - just as the Black Templars have their own chapter tactics despite being successors of the Imperial Fists.

[sfshilo]

Raven guard anyone? Jump pack assault and move all the time.

[Ezaviel]

Hey, you know who I don't think has been mentioned? The Ultramarines.

The Ultramarines are manic about the codex, and follow the rules of their primarch to the letter. However, this does make them very tactically useful, as you can see in their chapter tactics.

They dont get a "passive" trait like everyone else, they have three Doctrines that they can activate once per battle and last for a turn.
Tactical Doctrine: Everyone can re-roll 1s to hit in the shooting phase, and Tactical marines re-roll all misses in the shooting phase.
Assault Doctrine: Everyone can re-roll charge ranges, and Assault marines/bikes/attackbikes get Fleet.
Devestator Doctrine: Everyone can re-roll to hit with snap shots, and Devestator marines become Relentless.

So you can activate whichever rule fits the situation, but can only use each once per game.

They are very stoic and heroic, but have a bad reputation for looking down on everyone who isn't descended from them.

They have some pretty powerful special characters, like Cheif Librarian Tigurius, who is possibly the most powerful psyker in the game.

Also, they are stated to have a ridiculous number of descendant chapters, so you can pretty much paint up whatever you want and call them Ultramarine descendants.

[ElectricPaladin]

Wow guys, this discussion is incredible. I want to shout out a loud clear THANK YOU for everyone that has participated and offered their thoughts. Really enjoying this :)

I'm having a grand time myself! This sort of conversation is what I love about the BoLS community.


-ElectricP: I could tell you were a fan of Blood Angels so I pushed you a bit for info on other chapters. I appreciate you having objective opinions to share. I have thought about Blood Angels quite a bit and I'm strongly considering them or a successor chapter (I happen to like the colors of the Lamenters better than just plain red. I'd probably take the dull yellow all the way to a bone/cream color though.)

The Lamenters are a fun chapter. Their fluff - I don't know how much you've read about them - is that in the interests of keeping their oaths, they ended up accidentally betraying the Imperium. They definitely fall into the category of "doomed because they tried to be honorable, but they live in a galaxy that doesn't respect that kind of motivation."


-Sounds like White Scars are out if they need bikes.

Even if you could potentially make it work competitively, it sounds like you are enough of a fluff player that it would annoy you to have White Scars without bikes. I think you should follow your instincts here.


-Interesting ideas on the Blood Angels having the best fluff...

They do! They totally do!


-Hadn't heard of Blood Ravens. Looks like their founding chapter is unknown. Is that correct? So don't have an idea of what codex to use, though seems like "Blood" Angels might be a natural fit.

The best suggestion anyone has been able to come up with is that they are probably actually descended from loyalist Thousand Sons (that's a chapter that went to chaos and eventually all turned into ghosts trapped inside their own power armor). They definitely aren't Blood Angels successors, and their combat doctrine is less "advance with all speed and smash the *******s in hand-to-hand combat!" and more more "use intelligence to figure out what the enemy wants and use the best strategy for the situation." They aren't into close combat, and I don't think that they would be a good fit for you, fluff wise.


-Jump Packs aren't my favorite, so maybe this should rule out the Blood Angels codex (no decision yet though; still considering it as I stated above). I wouldn't mind having some jump packs, but I don't want them to be the focus of my army.

I think that Blood Angels can be played fine if jump packs aren't your favorite. It's more if you hated them and didn't want to use them, ever, that you should rule them out. Do you like the models/rules enough that you'd be happy to paint a couple of HQ and Elites options with jump packs? Do you like the idea of fielding one or two squads with jump packs in your army, even if the rest of your models are on foot? Then you can do fine with Blood Angels.

That said, I think that the jump packs are part of what makes Blood Angels fun, and if I didn't like them, I'd have looked elsewhere.

Additionally, most jump pack units... kind of suck these days. I don't know if that drives you towards Blood Angels (ie. "I'm more likely to win games by going with the Blood Angels' foot choices anyway!") or away from them (ie. "Urgh... you mean they rely on jump packs and they suck?").

On the third hand, try to avoid making a decision based on where the army is right now in terms of power level. You never know when that's going to shift, and an army is a big investment. My advice is to pick an army for feel and fluff, one that you can love through thick and thin... which means that maybe, if you really do agree that the Blood Angels have the best fluff, they are the best choice for you, and you'll come to love jump packs in time.

[Nabterayl]

I don't think that Blood Angels have the best fluff, but I think that's one of the great things about 40K - however you define "best fluff," there's a faction (and probably a space marine chapter) out there for you.


On the third hand, try to avoid making a decision based on where the army is right now in terms of power level. You never know when that's going to shift, and an army is a big investment. My advice is to pick an army for feel and fluff, one that you can love through thick and thin
Definitely agree with this advice.

[ElectricPaladin]

Definitely agree with this advice.

I live by it. Right after the Space Marines codex came out, when vanilla marines had officially left the Blood Angels in the dust, I traded away all my painted Exorcists and converted the unpainted stuff back into Knights of Blood, because the fact is that I didn't really love that army. I would win with it... but it wasn't fun. Not like my balls out, rage-screaming, tragic noble warriors Knights of Blood were fun. I work harder for my victories with my Knights, but I enjoy them a lot more.

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Okay so looking back through the thread, I think I may have emphasized close combat to much. I would like for my marines to be better than average in combat, but the mobile/mechanized aspect is more important to me.

Should I be considering Raven Guard and Salamanders at all?

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

And what chapter(s) would be considered best at using Drop Pods, if any?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Any Chapter uses Drop Pods, but there isn't a Chapter that dedicates itself to their use. Sometimes it isn't tactically viable to hit the earth at Mach 5. (like if there IS no earth to hit)

I personally am a massive fan of Raven Guard, however, they can be a bit dull to paint. Tactically, they are probably more ideal for you than Blood Angels, as they have Jump Packs, but really only the 3rd Company are known for using them lots, and even then, it's only really Shrike and his lieutenants.
You've got a lot of scope for creating your own fluff with the Raven Guard, as a lot of their Shadow Captains haven't yet been named.

Salamanders are dull in fluff in my opinion, every story I've read or heard of them, they just sound so dull. I don't know if that's down to Nick Kyme being a bad writer or not though, but the Salamanders trilogy was terrible.
More interesting to paint than the Raven Guard, and they're the army for you if you want to be less of an Astartes and compromise a mission for the sake of protecting humans...

I play a Chapter called the Fire Angels, specifically their 3rd Company, led by Praetor Tarnus Vale. They participated in the Badab War, and they suit me just fine as they love tanks and close range fire support, but as an Ultramarine successor I can be tactically diverse, and having over 5000 points of them I can field several variant armies. (I have the entire 3rd company, and most of the 1st, and a LOT of tank/drop pod/air support)
Their colour scheme is easy but not dull, silver and red, but their Techmarines are GOLD, and any tank that is designated to a Techmarine is also GOLD!

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110217015333/warhammer40k/images/1/1f/Mark_VIII_%27Errant%27.jpg

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110217020204/warhammer40k/images/3/3e/Techmarine.jpg


Have you not thought about creating your own Chapter that plays to your strength?

(I love Space Marine talk)

[Andrew Bartha]

Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists and I think it's the forge world Star Phantoms are all ACE with Drop pods. Myself I use my Crimson fists / Sentinels of terra exclusively with drop pods and aerial support. My friends HATE it. Drop in close, superaccurate bolter fire, and pie plates, with the aircraft to take out big beasties and tanks.

PS. I totally mentioned Imperial / Crimson fists.

[Andrew Bartha]

Huh I can't see my original reply here so it must have been lost in the aether.

Imperial and Crimson fists, as well as Forgeworld Star Phantoms are ACE for drop pod assault. Bolter drill and close order botler drill make for fantastic first strikes, and star phantoms have a special rule that means you can twin link everything for one turn, allowing for beautiful 1st turn drop pod alpha strikes. Myself I run my Crimson fists using Galatan from sentinels of terra a heap of drop pods, and some birds to take care of beasties and tanks. Salamanders are very very good for Drop pods too, because they are even more flaming than the Eldar. lots of up close flame and melta action, with a solid special character or two(counting forge world) and some good allround abilities. They don't need bikes.

[The Imperial Fist]

-Yeah, so no one had really mentioned Crimson Fists or Imperial Fists. What are the unique rules in the Imperial Fists chapter tactics?
Bolter drill is great, it effectively allows you to re-roll 50% of your misses with all infantry bolt weapons minus sternguard ammo. Which when you're hitting 4 out of 6 times anyway, makes them more leathal. The Tank Hunters rule is great too, fluffled your penetration roll first time. No bother, roll it again. It also makes an I(/C)F Devestator squads with missile launchers and flakk missiles one of the most dangerous anti-air choices in the codex. Stick them behind an aegis line with a quad-gun for extra death.
And if you like close combat, Lysander is a beast. If you've played MMOs, Lysander is basically the ultimte Tank. Sticking him with Hammernators is a little overkill to be honest, and quite expensive points wise. Though for a big game, them and a Terminator Chaplin to get the re-rolls to hit on the charge is one of the hardest hitting and most durable close combat units out there.


-Hadn't heard of Blood Ravens. Looks like their founding chapter is unknown. Is that correct? So don't have an idea of what codex to use, though seems like "Blood" Angels might be a natural fit.
Definitely not Blood Angels. Thousand Sons. It is brought up by Ahriman in one of the Blood Ravens books, and is hinted at again in one of the Horus Heresy short stories when a Thousand Son returns to Prospero. They mentioned at BL Live or the Heresy Weekend when someone asked a question that it'd probably be covered later if they can find a suitable way to fit it in.

[flufflogic]

My own chapter were always fluffed to be TSons who'd not fallen. Glad to see now I could just use the Ravens.

Blood Angels seem to be the obvious choice, you ask me.

[Darren Richardson]

I've read through this whole thread, some interesting ideas here, for my two pennies worth, how about a chapter that nobody uses but has some fluff already written for it?

Introducing Curtesy White Dwarf Issue 98 (from Feb 1988) The Mentor Legion - Chapter Designation 888

73997400740174027403

[ElectricPaladin]

Salamanders can actually be a good choice for drop pods, because it's a way to deliver their short-range weapons directly up the enemy's nose.

Space Wolves have a fun relationship with drop pods because they can put terminators in them, which is kind of neat. Of course, everyone else's terminators can just teleport, while Space Wolves are afraid of teleporting, so it's a mixed neat.

That said, as awesome as they are in look and concept, don't fall in love with drop pods. They suffer serious limitations in small to mid-sized games. The problem with a drop pod is that the squad inside has to hoof it thereafter. A bad scatter, a fast opponent tactically redeploying, and your squad is now twiddling its thumbs for the rest of the game. They can't hop back in the drop pod and go somewhere else. Given what you've said about liking mobile, mechanized infantry, I don't think you'll actually want to base your force around drop pods, though you'll probably enjoy owning and playing with a couple.

[Darren Richardson]

....They can't hop back in the drop pod and go somewhere else.....

Isn't that what the Kharybdis Assault Claw (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/K/Kharybdis.pdf) for?

And yeah I know in 40K only Chaos can have them.... :)

Now if he wants to set his space marines in 30K on the other hand ;)

[ElectricPaladin]

Now if he wants to set his space marines in 30K on the other hand...

Then good luck finding someone to play with.

Seriously. I think there are three dudes in my area with 30k armies.

[tcraigen]

Blood Angels

I commonly run Astorath,6x death company with lemartes, (maybe a additional chaplain) Death company dread, and a landraider. That's my basic foot print of an army. From there I usually add two razorbacks, vindicator, 3 landspeeders with multimeltas and assult cannons, a couple tactical squads, tycho or mephiston and sanguinary priests for any of the shooty squads. I varry it up with sternguard, preditors, a whirlwind, terminators, another dreadnaught, or assault squads with jet packs or rhinos. I always think of it as shield and punch. The death company with lemartes and astorath are the punch, and they can punch through almost anything they just have to get there with out loosing anything, so the idea is to create enough fear from the rest of the army to allow this, I find a speeding force of armour and a couple units of foot troops to hold objective is need be to usually do it. Though for a while I played two death company dreadnaughts, two death companies, astorath lemartes and tycho, a landraider and landspeeder. All that force is, is a big two fisted punch. I have big squads and its all about the hurt and move on aspect. My buddy always complained that I had nothing to take objectives, but who needs to capture objectives when you wipe the opposing force off the map and prevent them from capturing anything. You can build some really mean forces around the death company and it's characters as upgrades, I don't usually upgrade the weapons, they mostly are there for overwelming attacks and their wounds, and feel no pains. Between astorath, lemartes and a chaplain the rest of the squad usually is just clean up duty to guarantee they get free to do the same or move the next turn.

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

superaccurate bolter fire, and pie plates...

What are pie plates?


PS. I totally mentioned Imperial / Crimson fists.

:D

[mustardsword]

I'd like to give some advice without having read the others' replies, so I'm sorry if I replicate some advice that's already been given. Also, my advice will be a lot about background, less about the actual rules. Rest assured though, that all these Chapters are definitely playable (some very well, e. g. thanks to the Forge World Chapter rules).

How much do you let yourself be influenced by written background? I'm asking because I tend to get put off when I read something I dislike about a Chapter that I initially liked. For example I very much liked the Marines Malevolent until reading about them in the Salamanders novels. Now I'm neither a huge fan of Nick Kyme nor do I adhere to every letter of obscure background, and of course I realise that other companies of the Chapter, at a point earlier or later in time, could behave totally different, but anyway - I won't start a Marines Malevolent army any more. If you are like me in that, you should definitely go for a Chapter whose background is already well established. That way a new book won't make you hate your Chapter.

I'd only go for Blood Angels if you're fine with all that vampire nonsense; if you are, I'd suggest Flesh Tearers or the former Legion itself. I'm a huge fan of Flesh Tearers, and even if 6th edition made my whole army basically useless I still love them. One of the best things about the Blood Angels codex is that you still get pretty much everything regular Marines have, you don't need to go all Assault Squads or something like that. Blood Angels and Flesh Tearers have both the best background and the best paint scheme among the Legion's Chapters. If you want a fancier colour scheme, you could also go Lamenters who also have some nice background in the Badab War.

If you're not so much into the Blood Angels, there are still some Chapters with nice background in Codex: Space Marines that would fit your criteria. I'd probably try to go for one of the Badab War Chapters first; that gives you some nice background as well as an easy way to find some theme for your army. You don't need to be afraid you'll have to buy the Forge World books, a lot of the background can be found on the internet, too. Badab War Chapters who are decent at close combat with nice paint schemes would include: Mantis Warriors and Executioners (both on the renegade side of the war), Minotaurs and Carcharadons (on the Imperial side)

If that doesn't do it, I'd look through the coolest Second Founding Chapters. I immediately think of Black Templars who have an amazing background in the Third War for Armageddon. With Black Templars you'd have to forgo using Librarians though, which is not ideal if you want a good army. Among the former Legions there are none who fit what you want and have a penchant for close combat, I think. Maybe the Raven Guard would do. I do not see them as close-combat specialists as such, I think they'd just use the tools that do the job, but you could go for a Captain who prefers close combat. The Raven Guard Successor Chapter the Raptors is also a very nice Chapter, I think.

If you still don't know what to go for, I'd just go through the cool Chapters that are not especially known for close combat. Just make your army an assault force of one of these Chapters. Iron Hands and Sons of Medusa have nice paint schemes and lots of opportunity for converting bionics. Ultramarines and their many Successor Chapters offer a lot of nice possibilities (I'm a huge fan of the Novamarines myself), as do Imperial Fists (Crimson Fists and the Black Templars, of course, are great Chapters).

[Nabterayl]

What are pie plates?
"Pie plates" is 40K slang for large blast markers.

Okay so looking back through the thread, I think I may have emphasized close combat to much. I would like for my marines to be better than average in combat, but the mobile/mechanized aspect is more important to me.

Should I be considering Raven Guard and Salamanders at all?
Okay, that's definitely useful feedback. If you're looking for a mobile chapter with a list that doesn't revolve around jump packs and is at least better than average in close combat, I think that pretty much takes all of the Forge World chapter tactics out of the running. I'm going to go back through the non-Dark Angels chapter tactics with these criteria in mind and give my thoughts:

Space Wolves
Better Than Average in Combat: Yes. Proliferation of close combat weapons, specialty power weapons, and Counter-Attack make Space Wolves one of the top chapters for close combat prowess.
Mobility: Sort of. Models riding Thunderwolves are incredibly fast, but that's about it for unusually fast stuff. They have the unique option of terminators riding drop pods, which is more accurate than teleporting, but also more expensive.

Blood Angels
Better Than Average in Combat: Yes. Sanguinary Priests make even normal Blood Angels better in close combat.
Mobility: Yes. Their Rhino-chassis vehicles are Fast, and they have lots of access to jump packs. They are the chapter of fast.

Ultramarines
Better Than Average in Combat: Sort of. One of their three one-use-per-game abilities is Assault Doctrine, which lets all units re-roll their charge range (assault squads, bike squads, and attack bike squads get to re-roll any of the charge distance dice, rather than re-rolling the entire roll).
Mobility: Average.

White Scars
Better Than Average in Combat: Sort of. Army-wide Hit & Run lets them control their close combats better, but doesn't really let them hit any harder. White Scars bikes are somewhat better in combat due to superior Hammer of Wrath hits.
Mobility: Yes. Army-wide Hit & Run definitely makes the army more mobile (though not technically any faster), as does the incentive to rely heavily on bikes.

Imperial Fists
Better Than Average in Combat: No. Imperial Fists are excellent at shooting, but strictly average in actual assault.
Mobility: Average.

Black Templars
Better Than Average in Combat: Yes. Black Templars have better access to Melee weapons than most chapters (not as good as Space Wolves, but on par with Blood Angels). Their chapter tactics make their characters superior duelists and their squads more likely to annihilate an enemy via Sweeping Advance once they have won a round of combat.
Mobility: Sort of. Army-wide Crusader means that Black Templars have more reliable Run rolls than average, but other than that, they have average mobility.

Iron Hands
Better Than Average in Combat: Sort of. Iron Hands are tougher than most marines in combat due to army-wide Feel No Pain (6+), but not any killier.
Mobility: Average. Their vehicles are tougher than average but not any faster.

Salamanders
Better Than Average in Combat: Sort of. Every character gets a free master-crafted weapon, which can make their sergeants slightly better in combat than average.
Mobility: Not really. Their preference for fighting in flamer range certainly gives them an incentive to find ways to get close to the enemy quickly, but they have no special tools that make them faster.

Raven Guard
Better Than Average in Combat: Sort of. Raven Guard can use their jump packs in both the Movement and Assault phase, which means their jump troops are much more likely than any other chapter's to get their Hammer of Wrath attacks, and their Hammer of Wrath attacks get to re-roll failed wound rolls. Outside of jump infantry, though, no combat bonuses.
Mobility: Yes. Raven Guard jump infantry can use their jump packs to full effect in the Movement phase without worrying about whether they'll want to use them in the Assault phase, and every model that isn't jump infantry gets Scout.

Is that a helpful summary?

Addendum: It's worth noting, of course, that "average" mobility for any space marine chapter is pretty darn good. Their transports are good and/or cheap, they all have access to Storm Ravens (except for Space Wolves), they all have drop pods ... while there is such a thing as a fast space marine chapter (Blood Angels), there is no such thing as a slow one.

[DavidTQ]

-Interesting ideas on the Blood Angels having the best fluff. Definitely worth noting. Also worth noting here is that I enjoyed the comments about creating a chapter from DavidTQ. I'm still keeping that in consideration as well, although at the moment I am leaning toward playing a chapter that goes along fairly closely with an existing codex or set of chapter tactics.

-Hadn't heard of Blood Ravens. Looks like their founding chapter is unknown. Is that correct? So don't have an idea of what codex to use, though seems like "Blood" Angels might be a natural fit.


Thought Id show you a little more of homebrew chapter creation to give you a bit more of a taste of what can be done... Just a few pics of minis from my home brew chapter. Im not the greatest painter... Unfortunately don't have many photos of the more wolfy elements.

7414

(The green guy not the deathwing termy)

7415

The lighting is very different to the photo above but they are the same scheme and colours...

7416

This is part of the slaaneshi side of the chapter.

The chapter are called "The Green Hunters". This works on several levels their armour is green, their home world is green and the creatures they hunt the most are green. I also kind of liked the idea of the hunter becoming like the hunted. Big green brutal and carrying lots of ork axes..

Their fluff has been messed up by the HH series changing the storyline to make the wolves of fenris failed space marines (at the time I invented the chapter Leman Russ was raised by wolves that existed on Fenris before the space marines came there...)

Here is the background I came up with:-

Please bare in mind that this is supposed to represent the Chapters Oral history \ legends not hard fact! A chapters legends may not be correct! That gives me a lot of wiggle room to do what I want without contradicting cannon. I have very deliberately NOT stated that they are spacewolves successors. They merely believe that. I have very specifically not stated that they have met Leman Russ, merely that a tale in their history says they did!

The Chapter "The Green hunters" is based in "The Maelstrom". Deep within ork territory and often cut off from the imperium itself for centuries at a time. Due to this they often run up Gene seed tithe debts, leading to a lack of research by the tech adepts into the chapters peculiarities. Its not impossible that they selectively only send in Geneseed from amongst the pure "dark angels" type marines trying to cover up the changes taking place within the chapter. The chapters history is largelly fragmentory, its currently unknown (real world undecided) if they are relics from the Emperors failed attempt to purge the area or if they were part of a later drive in the area. The chapters fortress monastery is on a Jungle Deathworld with a feral human population and regular heavy ork invasion.

The chapter in its current form is split down the middle, with one half of the chapter being pious robe wearing monks, and the other half feral savage warriors, but all bound by common brotherhood. (I actually like this concept of the lion and the wolf side by side, whilst they were rivals they were also Brothers and I dont doubt for all their rivalry there was a bond there)

The history of how the chapter came to be split is told through chapter legend and dates back "millenia". The tales tell that at the time the chapter was more "middle ground" supposedly of dark angels gene seed, but with no formal links to the main dark angels chapter, even in those days some brothers were more pious than others.

The chapter master of the day was one of the more pious brothers the Master of the 1st Company less so, but the two were friends, who had fought the orks together before their induction to the chapter long centuries ago, they had been "brothers" ever since.

The Master of the 1st Company returned from battling a chaos incursion on a nearby human world claiming to have been visited by Leman Russ himself who after briefly joining them in battle with the fell forces of chaos, claimed that mingled amongst the troops were some who were "his sons".

One possible explanation given is that the gene seed came from the original space wolves legion, before the Emperor found Russ. Although these marines would not have been from Fenris and never knew their primarch they were literally "Sons of Russ", Those first Spacewolves who fell in battle their geneseed was harvested and stored even before the Primarchs were rediscovered. This geneseed was not yet corrupted by the practises of the wolf priests although it did hold the latent mutation possibilities!

It is also claimed that before leaving Russ gave them the gift of wolves from Fenris. The 1st company master claims that Russ took off in pursuit of the chaos warriors as they fled routed by the might of the primarch and his retinue and the awe struck zeal of the marines in the presence of a Primarch claiming to be "their father".

Whatever the truth of what happened that fatefull day, the chapter was never the same again. The chapter master although he disbelieved the tale could not bring himself to destroy his brother of centuries for this, without proof of disloyalty or taint. Whilst clearly changed, his brother of centuries was still a fiercely loyal soldier.

From that time on the Wolf Cult within the chapter grew. The ferocious wolves they brought back with them and introduced to the jungles of the home world quickly established themselves within the deadly jungle.

The Green Hunters recruit exclusively from the native population of their home world. Where the feral population have to fight off technologically superior orks regularly, the bravest of those who fall in battle against the orks are inducted to the Green Hunters. This has over the millenia leant itself to creating a chapter who glorify close combat. It has also amongst the more pious part of the chapter caused a reaction of greater piety in response to the savagery of the "wolfy" part of the chapter.

Imperial genetecists have confirmed that the wolves of their home planet ARE descended from the wolves of Fenris although many possibilities exist for their presence on this planet including actions of rogue traders who have had space wolves in their personal forces at times.

A rough description of how the army looks is as follows :-

The chapter is roughly Codex size (roughly 850 after loss of 6th company) not Space wolves size so they cant follow spacewolves organization directly, basically it works like this:-

HQ

Chaptermaster (Currently Wolf Aligned) Thrand Greataxe
Venerable Dreadnought Muloki Eredhemel oldest surviving dreadnought (Wolf Aligned)

1st Company Company Master - Fidelis Amadeus (Dark Angel aligned) - Veterans \ specialists

Split between "Deathwing","Wolfguard" and various "Leaders"

All dreadnoughts are counted as 1st Company, but are assigned to accompany detachments as required. The Chapter has few Dreadnoughts available due to being out of contact with the empire for prolonged periods and that they field dreadnoughts regularly. After the loss of the 6th company they have just 8 Dreadnoughts and 3 Venerable dreadnoughts left, but they have a good stock pile of "salvage parts" to keep the existing dreadnoughts maintained.

For fiction purposes I'd say they have somewhere around 60 suits of terminator armour left to them, shared out between characters, 1st Company Tactical Dreadnoughts AKA 1CTD(deathwing) and wolfguard. Id currently put the 1CTD terminators as being slightly higher numbers than the Wolfguard. Its worth noting that suit decor aside the terminators are fielded as either "deathwing" or "wolfguard" being able to fill either role despite different ornamentation. Wolf Guard characters often wear power armour when accompanying "Axelings" into battle

2nd Company

3 Tactical Squads 2 Assault Squads 3 Green Hunters Packs (Grey hunters) 3 devestator Squads 1 long fangs Pack

3rd Company - Ork Response Specialists

2 Tactical Squads 1 Assault Squad 1 Green Hunters Packs 2 Axeling (bloodclaws) Packs 2 Long Fangs Packs

4th Company - Anti Renegade Specialists (Regularly deal with inquisition forces)

3 Green Hunters Packs 4 Axeling Packs 2 Long Fangs Packs

5th Company

3 Tactical Squads 2 Assault Squads 1 Green Hunters Pack 1 Axelings Pack 4 devestator Squads

6th Company - Lost to the warp

1 Green Hunters Packs 2 Axelings Packs 3 Tactical Squads 1 Assault Squad 2 Devestator Squads 2 Long Fangs Packs

7th Company

3 Tactical Squads 2 Assault Squads 2 Green Hunters Pack 2 Axelings Pack

8th Company - CC Specialists

5 Assault Squads 3 Axelings Packs

9th Company

3 Tactical Squads 2 Assault Squads 3 Green Hunters Pack 1 Axelings Pack 1 devestator Squad

10th Company - Axe Takers \ Scouts

Neophytes during initiation are subjected to tests which expose their wolf or dark angel natures. Wolf types graduate to "Axelings" by taking an axe from an Ork nob in single combat hence "axe takers" non wolf type brothers follow standard codex astartes procedures.

11th Company - Chaos Search and Kill (cover story hunting for renegade 6th company)

Temporary Company Formed from fast attack specialists of other companies on an adhoc basis

Fast Attack Specialists, 100 Strong all Dark Angels based.

When the 6th Company went missing it was a great blow to the chapter, in addition to the terrible losses of an entire company of regular marines they lost the accompanying heavy armour and veteran support. They lost 3 irreplaceable dreadnoughts including the second oldest Venerable dreadnought in the chapter and 20 suits of tactical dreadnought armour.

There are 4 "wolf Lords" in the army each a Company Master of one of the regular companies Every Wolf Lord commands two companies worth of Wolf marines as a "great company"

A bit of real world history on my chapter:-

Originally I started off liking the dark angels robed models, but didnt want to pay out the price to have a fully robed army (plastic dark angels werent around at the time). I also wanted my own colour scheme.

Later I also developed a fascination with the Space Wolves, so I came up with some fiction to try to meld this "dark angel" sucessor chapter with "space wolves" stuff to "tri" use my models (codex spacewolves , marines and dark angels ). Obviously trying to marry together two rivals fluffwise is a difficult task at best especially given the Space wolves gene seed problems and lack of sucessor chapters. But I wanted MY wolves to be in my colours and to mingle with my other models. The resulting bit of fluff is still used in my main fluff below.

90% of my games are with my wife, who collected sisters of battle (pre witch hunters) which tied in well enough with the conflict between space wolves and the ecclisiarchy at the time. We started building a "neutral" army of orks, so it was at this point that the ork territory appeared in my fluff. I also got my "grimnar" model at this time and loved the axe.

At the time my fluff went that the reason why they were fighting orks so much was because they were deep within ork territory but I couldnt explain why they hadnt virus bombed the world etc, so using the axe as inspiration I made up some fluff about how the first chapter master had vowed to clear the planet with his axe. Although this is no longer "Core Fluff" the axe thing took on a life of its own, and ended up with a lot of converted models carrying axes in memory of their first chapter masters vow - often ork choppas left over from making up ork units, which again took on a life of its own and became part of the chapters core "look" and "Fluff", the marines have to take an axe from an ork nob in single combat before they are able to go from neophyte to full brother.

The eye of terror then came out and although my army are not "true" space wolves I wanted to be able to use 13th company rules as well. So then came a proximity to the warp. Given both heavy ork fighting and warp presence the chapters home planet has been placed somewhere around "The Maelstrom".
About 5 years or so ago I felt myself gravitating somewhat towards chaos, Slaanesh in particular was calling, so I got myself a box of noise marines originally this was going to be a small raiding force 400 points or so. But now Ive realised that I already have partially chaos models from the 13th company boxes in my main army... Why not carry on the multi use of models So now I have further created some new fluff the "13th company" of the space wolves has now became the "6th company" of the green hunters

Basically the 6th Company have been lost in the warp. Those with spacewolves traits are largelly safe from the warp, and fight as per 13th company rules (although the models can be used for normal space wolves troops OR chaos troops) but the part of the 6th company that were more dark angels derived have been corrupted to slaanesh, now this allows me to have a "mini fallen" style flavour to the chapter as well. Not only that but in keeping with the sisters "Witch hunters" role, the chapter now has a Great reason to be regularly at odds with the inquisition, covering up the fall of a whole company. The inquisition hasnt been able to call an exterminatus because of difficulty tracing the chapters home world with the warp activity in the maelstrom. I like the fact that this now gives the chapter a really edgy fluff position. This chapter is ultimately Damned, no good can come of the long term heresy and covering up their fallen brothers. But for now they are 95% loyal soldiers of the imperium. It can only be a matter of time before the inquisitors connect the dots and declare them traitorus excommunicate, What will happen when that day comes. Will the chapter stand or fall?


I apologize for the size of the post there, its all copy and pasted from old stuff Ive put out and about and is a little disjointed. But it gives you some idea of just what sort of fun you can have coming up with a chapter of your own... The chapter has existed for nearly 12 years real time... I dont play regularly but like to keep my hands in so to speak, having been in the hobby since the late 80's...

About those blood ravens, its 99% certain they are descended from loyalist Heresy era thousand sons. The HH series pretty much confirmed that, although it was often theorised and hinted at before that. But in the HH series you have a bunch of thousand sons turn up to find out what happened at prospero having missed the destruction of prospero and the fall of their primarch and their sigil was a ravens head! Their specialty being reading the future..

[Joseph Anthony Brackett]

This is what I do-

I play vanilla marines and use allies as much as possible. I've written a custom fluff for my army which gives me a huge amount of flexibility on the battlefield. I haven't finalized anything yet, so I'm not very inclined to share any of it here at the moment, but my fluff does tie into Black Templars closely. Because of this, my army consists of black armor adorned with variant hues of dark greys and blues, trimmed with silver for lower classes and gold trimming for the upper echelons, elites and the like.

I use that to my advantage, too. Since Templar derive from Imperial Fists, I have available to me Cpt. Lysander. Also because of this, I have a few squads painted as Fists.

I prefer non-diminishing colors too (nothing off-putting or obscenely bright or “happy”- I like to fit the aesthetic of 40k as well as I can, but to a much more realistic degree of design).

So, because of that and the fact that I use vanilla marines, I also include Ironhands in my army, so I have a few squads painted thusly.

The cool thing is the flexibility in all of this. Depending on the situation, I can pick and choose which chapter tactics I'll use during each different game and not have it feel “off” or wrong of me to do so because my fluff is written in the proper fashion to enable these chapters or armies to work together.


Also, since my fluff gives me close ties to Templar, I have a few ambiguously painted and built squads and vehicles which can look either Templar proper or they can fit into my vanilla army. So, technically, I have allies at will, or I have a huge swath of marines and vehicles for standard/points games. It works well for me either way. I also have Templar exclusive models such as finecast sword brethren which help mix and match as needed.

Eventually, I am going to get Death Korps allies as well. I love darker aesthetics. I love concise brutality, well thought and even better written stories of war and destruction. I love the grimdark, but try to seek a more finely tuned variant of it. Most grimdark stuff is so over the top, it gets overwhelming in a bad way. I seek the thrall of battle as though it were me actually there. So, what I mean to say is that I understand non-diminishing color schemes, close ranged combat and the like.

What you are seeking is what I sought when I first started. Adding even more flexibility is the fact that I've magnetized all 9 sergeants, one squad of assault marines, one squad of vanguard and 8 marines with special/heavy weapons.

All magnetized models can take ANY variant of applicable special or heavy weapon. I've also magnetized vehicles (predator, land raider) which gives me options for every type of raider or predator.


Woot. Mods. Love it. Expensive and time consuming to have done all of this, but I love it!!!

Hope my input helps-

[Darren Richardson]

....there is no such thing as a slow one.....

There used to be.

Back in 3rd ed when codex Armagedden came out Salamanders had I3 instead of I4 of most other marines so the often hit last in Close Combat....

:)

[Nabterayl]

Actually, just so you have it, here's my breakdown of the Forge World chapter tactics as well:

Red Scorpions
Better Than Average in Combat: Sort of. The Red Scorpions can have apothecaries instead of sergeants in their tactical squads, which gives the whole squad Feel No Pain and thus makes them somewhat tougher all around.
Mobility: Average.

Carcharodons
Better Than Average in Combat: Yes. They have access to melee weapons that almost rivals the Space Wolves, cause Fear, and gain Rage (which gives them +2A on the charge, instead of the normal +1A) after winning any close combat. Definitely a top-tier close combat chapter.
Mobility: Average.

Raptors
Better Than Average in Combat: Average. The Raptors' chapter tactics center around shooting in the 13"-24" range bracket.
Mobility: Sort of. They share the Raven Guard's ability to give regular-sized infantry Scout and Stealth on the first turn.

Mantis Warriors
Better Than Average in Combat: Yes. Army-wide Hammer of Wrath makes their charges better than most, as does the option to gain Furious Charge when charging out of or over cover.
Mobility: Yes. Army-wide Move Through Cover means that they virtually ignore Difficult Terrain. No enhanced mechanized mobility, though.

Executioners
Better Than Average in Combat: Sort of. Their characters are better at dueling multi-wound models (with a 1/6 chance to cause Instant Death in a challenge).
Mobility: Average.

Angels Revenant
Better Than Average in Combat: Average, unless they're fighting necrons. If fighting necrons, definitely.
Mobility: Average.

Red Hunters
Better Than Average in Combat: Can be. Once per game they can give several of their units one of six special rules for a turn (the number of units that can be so buffed goes up the longer the player waits to use it). Of these, three - Counter-Attack, Monster Hunter, and Hatred - enhance close combat.
Mobility: Average.

Star Phantoms
Better Than Average in Combat: Average.
Mobility: Yes. The Star Phantoms get to re-roll Deep Strike reserve rolls of 1, making their Deep Strike reserves more likely to arrive.

Minotaurs
Better Than Average in Combat: Sort of. Army-wide Crusader makes them more likely to wipe out an enemy once they have beaten them in close combat, but no more likely to win the close combat in the first place.
Mobility: Average. They do gain +1" to charge distances in the enemy deployment zone, but that is a very specific buff to mobility.

Fire Hawks
Better Than Average in Combat: Sort of. Their jump troops gain +1S to their Hammer of Wrath attacks, but there is no close combat bonus to any other type of unit.
Mobility: Sort of. Their flame-based weapons gain +1S when used directly after Deep Strike, which gives an incentive to use lots of jump troops arriving by Deep Strike. In addition, their assault squads and vanguard veteran squads are scoring, which eliminates one major obstacle to using a majority jump troops army.

Astral Claws
Better Than Average in Combat: Average.
Mobility: Sort of. Their Fast Skimmers gain Scout, and their bikes gain Skilled Rider, giving an incentive to emphasize these units in your army.

[gregster]

if you dont like any of the chapters why not do what ive done with my SM force and just create your own custom chapter ? but only problem is selecting the chapter traits. that can be easy fixed though by choosing what fits you more. for instance my force, although rather big, is divided; i have my terminator division commanded by Lysander (imperial fist), my veteran division commanded by Calgar (ultramarines), assault division commanded by Shryke (raven guard) tactical/devistator division lead by Sicarius (ultramarines) and finally scouts commanded by Tellion (although just a sergeant). my force is designed more for playing apocalypse but its possible to switch it about for smaller games and everything is painted the way i want (no ultramarine blue, imperial yellow or blood red) and each division has its own detailing colour so its totally personal to me. also looking to add things from other groups to it so will need to use other codexes wich you specifically said you dont want to do but it could be an option if you make your own chapter. but if you want to stick to one codex then and specialize on assault then theres, as mentioned templars as well, and also from the generic spacemarine codex raven guard. also theres grey knights but i dont like them as there fluff bores me :/

[The Imperial Fist]

Imperial Fists
Better Than Average in Combat: No. Imperial Fists are excellent at shooting, but strictly average in actual assault.
Mobility: Average.

Perhaps as an army they are no better than the rest of C:SM, but they do have one of the best CC monsters in the game in Lysander. Not to mention exclusive access to an Apocalypse formation designed to kill titans in close combat.

[Nabterayl]

Perhaps as an army they are no better than the rest of C:SM, but they do have one of the best CC monsters in the game in Lysander. Not to mention exclusive access to an Apocalypse formation designed to kill titans in close combat.
That is certainly true. I have been keeping special characters out of my replies so far, but if the OP wants, I'm sure that we could all weigh in on how the SC roster for a given chapter affects the way the related army plays.

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Sure wish I could have been posting more today but was busy with work.

Yo Nabetrayl, thanks a ton for all of those summaries. I had a ton of info bubbling over in my brain and your summaries really helped to solidify things. So with that said, and with lots of appreciation for all the lore and nuances associated with each chapter/codex, I've narrowed the field down to the following four codex/chapter tactics, in alphabetical order:

Blood Angels
Carcharodons
Iron Hands
Mantis Warriors

If I'm not mistaken, codex: Blood Angels is the only set of rules that provided a clear close combat AND mobility advantage. So they have to be in the mix.

Nothing to really help the Carcharodons be exceptional at mobility/mechanized, but there is no point in really shuttling all those marines around if they can't bring the hurt when they jump and out start fighting.

Iron Hands may not have better-than-average attacking capability, but the extra toughness is cool. And I consider the extra tough vehicles to be a pretty big advantage. There might not be better speed or "mobility" per se, but having a greater chance of surviving attack means having a greater chance of getting the marines to where they need to get before disembarking.

Mantis Warriors are really intriguing. I assume that charging out of cover would include charging out from behind a Razorback, right? (Sorry, don't have a rulebook and can't remember for sure). Also, moving through difficult for extra mobility once out of a transport is a really cool nuance I think.


At this point, it's time to start delving into the fluff more. That will be the deciding factor in the end. I think I'd be happy playing any of these four rule sets. Thanks to everyone for helping me get this far.

[ElectricPaladin]

If I'm not mistaken, codex: Blood Angels is the only set of rules that provided a clear close combat AND mobility advantage. So they have to be in the mix.

True.

Nothing to really help the Carcharodons be exceptional at mobility/mechanized, but there is no point in really shuttling all those marines around if they can't bring the hurt when they jump and out start fighting.[/QUOTE]

As you mention below, though, they can be mechanized, which will always make your army feel nice and fast, even if they aren't Blood Angels fast.


Iron Hands may not have better-than-average attacking capability, but the extra toughness is cool. And I consider the extra tough vehicles to be a pretty big advantage. There might not be better speed or "mobility" per se, but having a greater chance of surviving attack means having a greater chance of getting the marines to where they need to get before disembarking.

And the fact that the vehicles are also more durable will help you to keep them in the fight longer.


Mantis Warriors are really intriguing. I assume that charging out of cover would include charging out from behind a Razorback, right? (Sorry, don't have a rulebook and can't remember for sure). Also, moving through difficult for extra mobility once out of a transport is a really cool nuance I think.

No. Cover means "terrain" not "another unit that blocks them." I guess the transport does count as terrain once it's wrecked... :D


At this point, it's time to start delving into the fluff more. That will be the deciding factor in the end. I think I'd be happy playing any of these four rule sets. Thanks to everyone for helping me get this far.

I assume that's what you mean? In which case, I agree.

I also think that you are approaching the point where you will need to decide, rather than hope that the answer is handed to you by some outside factor.

One last thing to consider. I don't know if you are a 40k Hipster like I am - and I really am - but you might enjoy having an army that is unique in your area. If you think you would...

The Blood Angels book is still quite popular, though the Lamenters aren't a super popular chapter.

The Carcharadons and Mantis Warriors are practically unheard of in my area, and might also be in yours.

The Iron Hands are going to be very popular now, but you might still earn some uniqueness points by going with one of their successors, like the Iron Knights or Sons of Medusa.

Also, it might be time to start considering color schemes. Which - if any - of these color schemes call out to you? Which - if any - are in your favorite colors? Which will you enjoy spending hours slaving away over? It's an important consideration and not to be ignored. I stripped my Blood Angels and turned them into Knights of Blood in part because I realized that I was sick of painting just red - red, everywhere! - and wanted a scheme that was at least two-tone.

[Nabterayl]

Mantis Warriors are really intriguing. I assume that charging out of cover would include charging out from behind a Razorback, right? (Sorry, don't have a rulebook and can't remember for sure). Also, moving through difficult for extra mobility once out of a transport is a really cool nuance I think.
EP is right. I misremembered the rule here - technically, you get a bonus for charging from (i) within (ii) a piece of terrain (iii) that grants a cover save and (iv) was not purchased as a fortification. So charging from behind a Razorback certainly wouldn't count, and neither would charging from within a Land Raider.


At this point, it's time to start delving into the fluff more. That will be the deciding factor in the end. I think I'd be happy playing any of these four rule sets. Thanks to everyone for helping me get this far.
Would you like help with that?

Also, do you care about special characters, or would thoughts on the various SCs available to the different books just be extraneous?

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

No. Cover means "terrain" not "another unit that blocks them." I guess the transport does count as terrain once it's wrecked... :D


Darn. That makes them slightly less intriguing, although they are still strong in the mix for me.

Nah, special characters are not such a big deal to me. The colors/look of the models will be the next thing I am going to strongly consider.

Like you said EP, all red doesn't sound terribly fun. It makes Lamenters easily the front-runner for a chapter using the BA codex.

All gray Carcharodons don't seem too fun either.

Mostly-black Iron Hands seems boring, but I really do like the color scheme. Sons of Medusa and Steel Confessors are the other two possibilities there that I like.

And finally there are the Mantis Warriors with a really unique color scheme. Thought it was odd the first time I saw it (instantly made me think of Striking Scorpions), but it is growing on me.

[ElectricPaladin]

Darn. That makes them slightly less intriguing, although they are still strong in the mix for me.

Nah, special characters are not such a big deal to me. The colors/look of the models will be the next thing I am going to strongly consider.

Like you said EP, all red doesn't sound terribly fun. It makes Lamenters easily the front-runner for a chapter using the BA codex.

All gray Carcharodons don't seem too fun either.

Mostly-black Iron Hands seems boring, but I really do like the color scheme. Sons of Medusa and Steel Confessors are the other two possibilities there that I like.

And finally there are the Mantis Warriors with a really unique color scheme. Thought it was odd the first time I saw it (instantly made me think of Striking Scorpions), but it is growing on me.

Steel Confessors, that's it. Not Iron Knights... they're an Imperial Fists successor...

Anyway, before you dismiss the Carcharadons, I should let you know that someone I know over on the Independent Characters forums is painting Carcharadons grey with this gorgeous and horrible gory red blood splatter effect all over everyone. I do a little blood splatter on my assault units (assault marines and terminators), but what he's got going on is amazing.

Honestly, though, it sounds like Mantis Warriors and Lamenters are your fore-runners. I'd keep on going on that direction, if I were you. They - especially the Mantis Warriors - sound like they are most interesting to you.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Noooooooo.... the Lamenters are so lame.... xD

999.M41 The Darkest Hour - a tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan is on a direct course for the Blood Angels homeworld, Baal. Exacerbating this already terrible threat is a massive daemon army led by the dread bloodthirster Ka'Bandha, which has already struck at Ammonai, the outermost planet of the Baal system. Facing a possible war on two fronts, Commander Dante sends out a call for all Chapters descended from the Blood Angels to send forces to aid their ancestor Legion; the Flesh Tearers are the first to do so, deploying the entire Chapter for war. Ultimately all but the Lamenters do so, even the renegade Knights of Blood

The entire reason why I hate the Lamenters.

[The Imperial Fist]

The Iron Hands are going to be very popular now, but you might still earn some uniqueness points by going with one of their successors, like the Iron Knights or Sons of Medusa.

Although the Iron Knights are actually an Imperial Fists sucessor ;-)

I agree with you about wanting uniqueness, when I started my IF's about 9 years ago they weren't popular at all, I was the only person I knew with them. Now there seems to be Imperial Fists players everywhere :-/

[ElectricPaladin]

Noooooooo.... the Lamenters are so lame.... xD

...

The entire reason why I hate the Lamenters.

They're kind of the yellow sheep of the Blood Angels family... :D

Anyway, there's always room for some of them to strive to restore their honor under NuclearSnowyOwl's generalship!

[Nabterayl]

If you do decide to go with an Iron Hands or successor chapter, don't forget the availability of the GW bionics conversion kit (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1600078a).

[Tyrendian]

If you do decide to go with an Iron Hands or successor chapter, don't forget the availability of the GW bionics conversion kit (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1600078a).

and the corresponding and ever increasing Forge World Supply (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/The_Horus_Heresy/Legiones_Astartes/Iron_Hands) of brilliant IH stuff...

[Da Gargoyle]

If you want unique, play Utramarines, no one else does, it's usually the start of round 3 when people stop laughing and realise they are still space marines. You can field assault troops without their jump packs and assault out of a Raider. And how bad does it look when the opposition get malleted by smurfs?

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

I've been continuing to think about this discussion non-stop. Still as yet undecided.

When reading Larry Vela's article on Salamander Chapter Tactics just now, I came across this little bit discussing the Flamecraft special rule: "Where this ability really gets interesting is against infantry; heavy flamers killing Fire Warriors and Dire Avengers on 2s with re-rolls? Flamers killing Hormagaunts on 3s with re-rolls? Sign me up please! This is of best use on five-man Assault Squads with two flamers in a unit, as not only do they get their Drop Pod for free, but they aren't restricted to just one flamer and a combi-flamer."

What is that bit about getting a Drop Pod for free?

[mustardsword]

What is that bit about getting a Drop Pod for free?
If your Assault Squad is not equipped with jump packs, you can give it a Rhino or Drop Pod for free.

[ElectricPaladin]

What is that bit about getting a Drop Pod for free?

If you take assault marines on foot, they get a discount on the price of their dedicated transport. IIRC, for Codex Space Marines it's that they get a rhino or drop pod free. For Blood Angels, they get any dedicated transport at a 35 point discount.

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

What's IIRC mean?

And remind me of the difference between Assault Marines and Tac Marines. If I weren't putting the Assault Marines on foot with a free dedicated transport, how else would they be fielded. Aren't these the guys that normally have Jump Packs?

Trust me, I plan on picking up some rulebooks real soon, and then I won't have these ridiculous questions.

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

I'm also unclear on if this free transport for Assault Marines thing is just for Salamanders, of if it works across the entire SMs codex. Would it work for Imperial Fists, for example?

[ElectricPaladin]

What's IIRC mean?

If I Recall Correctly


And remind me of the difference between Assault Marines and Tac Marines. If I weren't putting the Assault Marines on foot with a free dedicated transport, how else would they be fielded. Aren't these the guys that normally have Jump Packs?

Assault Marines = Fast Attack choice, come with bolt pistol and chainsword and can take two special weapons but no heavy weapons, and have jump packs by default (but can trade them in).


I'm also unclear on if this free transport for Assault Marines thing is just for Salamanders, of if it works across the entire SMs codex. Would it work for Imperial Fists, for example?

It works for Blood Angels and Codex Space Marines. Not sure about Dark Angels or Space Wolves.

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Hey there guys, I'm getting really close to choosing a Chapter. I finally got to a local store last night and picked up the Space Marines codex, as well as a rulebook (anyone else own the Gamer's Edition rulebook? What a beautiful book!). This has helped me clear up a few bits of confusion I was still having with the rules.

Also, sorry EP, but yeah, this does mean that I have ruled out Blood Angels and their successors. I did give them a good hard look though, as I've tried to do with all chapters.

One thing that really changed my perspective was reading the rules associated with the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics. Not being able to remember exactly how the Scout special rule worked, I figured it would only apply to infantry. So rediscovering that it applies to a dedicated transport, AND it bestows the Outflank special rule, which also applies to a dedicated transport, the Raven Guard suddenly shot up to the top of my Best-Chatper-for-Me list.

Am I understanding these rules correctly? I can put some tac marines in a Razorback, and the whole vehicle + unit would get Outflank? So I could arrive from a side table edge via Reserves after the first turn? Cause if I am understanding that correctly, these are the Chapter Tactics I want to use.

I have been really liking the look and fluff of Raven Guard, but I previously considered that their Chapter Tactics would only help marines on foot and would therefor be totally out of sync with the mechanized style I want to play. Assuming I'm understanding these rules correctly, the only question left is whether to take Raven Guard as my chapter, or the successor Knights of the Raven.

Anyone know if there is much fluff for Knights of the Raven? If not, I'll just stick with Raven Guard. I'd like to have lots of history, etc. to delve into :)

[ElectricPaladin]

Also, sorry EP, but yeah, this does mean that I have ruled out Blood Angels and their successors. I did give them a good hard look though, as I've tried to do with all chapters.

No sweat, man. I prefer for the only Blood Angels players to be the ones who really love the faction!

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

Hey BOLS forum peeps. I'm coming back to this thread after several months. Here's just a quick question:

With regards to fluff only, what are the Space Marine chapters that are most inclined to use a lot of tanks (whether they be Land Raiders, Rhinos, Vindicators, whatever)?

FYI, since starting this thread earlier this year, I haven't taken any real steps to start up an army, other than purchase Codex:SMs, and practice painting some different minis. But what I have done that has really influenced my thinking is I have read Horus Rising and that book is AWESOME. I'd feel pretty good about making an army of Luna Wolves right now and having a special character named Loken to lead it. Fluff has become pretty darn important and I want to read at least a few more books about some of the other original Chapters.

[Charistoph]

Dark Angels have the Ironwing. Much like Deathwing and Ravenwing, just more tank-based.

There are a few others, but none that are really First Founding or huge names. The 5th Edition codex could give some insight with the little blurbs they provide in their showcase.

[asmodai66]

I would say Dark Angels, they been my chapter since day one. I say the best chapter that fits your personality..

[NuclearSnowyOwl]

I guess I should say that, if the fluff is good it doesn't necessarily have to a be a chapter from the First Founding.

[ElectricPaladin]

The Blood Angels are described as having an unusually large number of land raiders, for what that's worth. However, they don't have any special rules that make them particularly more suited to fielding them than any other chapter.

The Iron Hands and their successors are particularly likely to use a lot of tanks, because advanced technology (as well as cybernetics) is kind of their thing. Also, their Chapter Tactics gives their vehicles some special advantage (but I can't recall what that is off the top of my head). Iron Hands successors are, by the way, very diverse in their color schemes and practices, and their fondness for cybernetics can provide some cool conversion opportunities. They're a neat chapter - I almost started a Sons of Medusa army at one point.

[White Tiger88]

[QUOTE=NuclearSnowyOwl;395136


With that in mind, here are my 5 biggest criteria for choosing a chapter:

-I don't want Space Wolves. I think the fur pelts are silly.

-I want a Chapter that excels at close combat.

-I don't want a chapter that needs lots of bikes to be successful.

-It can't be a Chapter that using pink or purple as its primary color.

-I would love to have a good variety of units so that I can play flexibly. I don't like massing a single type of unit (like Terms or bikes, a la Dark Angels)

[/QUOTE]

Honestly? Go for Alpha Legion or Blood Angels, Alpha legion is the bad *** secret agent marines....................... Blood Angels are pissed off Space Vampire's that rip off peoples faces and drink there blood! you are set ether way.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion

[Path Walker]

Minotaurs.

Brutal close combat loving maniacs with fluff to back up having tons of tanks.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Minotaurs

[Houghten]

The Aurora Chapter is known for possessing three times the standard number of Land Raiders and Predators. There's not a great deal of fluff about them, though. They mostly get footnotes.

On the plus side, their transfer sheet (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Aurora-Chapter-Transfers) is still available!

[Charistoph]

I guess I should say that, if the fluff is good it doesn't necessarily have to a be a chapter from the First Founding.

My point was more that GW hasn't really emphasized any one chapter as being overly-tread-headed like Dark Angels with Terminators, Blood Angels with Assault Marines, Templars with large squads, etc.

But hey, there is always DIY. Even make it Iron Hands so you can emphasize a strong Techmarine presence and those tanks Will Not Die.

[Gleipnir]

I guess I should say that, if the fluff is good it doesn't necessarily have to a be a chapter from the First Founding.

From a fluff perspective Aurora Chapter(Ultramarine founding)(Green) and Minotaurs Chapter(FW specific Chapter Tactics)(Bronze/Gold), and the FFG invented Storm Warden Chapter(Unknown founding)(Sky Blue/Silver) all favor the armored cavalry method of warfare.

From a rules perspective Iron Hands offer a number of benefits to vehicle armies in the form of It Will Not Die giving them the means of restoring lost Hull Points.

[JMichael]

I base most of my army decisions on what I want to model and paint.
But regarding Space Marines I chose to create my own chapter (painted bone and red).
I only only get to paint them as I want, but as they are not a codex chapter I can use whichever codex I choose!
Sometimes I use Dark Angels, currently I am using the Blood Angles codex.
You can then also have custom characters that can use the rules of any codex character (as long as they have similar looking weapons/equipment)!
You could even use Space Wolves (sans pelts) codex.
Grey Knights would probably be the only codex a general custom chapter may not be able to use as their wargear is very different.