New Thoughts on the Next Orks - A Series

[coolguyclay]

A series on our favorite greenskins, just to gather some hype and best wishes as we wait for the new Ork Codex.

This series will come out periodically over the next few weeks, so subscribe to the thread, and join in the speculation! : )

Part 1: The Stat Line
Part 2: Weapons and Wargear
Part 3: Units and the next Big Thing
Part 4: Army Special Rules and Klans
Part 5: Waaagh! Da Orks!

[coolguyclay]

New Thoughts on the Next Orks - Part 1: The Stat Line
Orks are an iconic race in the Warhammer 40k Universe. The third edition codex turned a zany and unstructured army into the unified greenskins we know today, while the fourth/fifth edition codex carried on the theme. Fun to fight with or against, Orks have lost a little edge over the years, and with new codex looming later this year, it is a great time to talk about what the next Greenskins could look like!

Orks are described as being large brutes, somewhat dim, and extremely fighty. Pretty good combination, eh? The ork stat line was unified in the 3rd edition code and remaining largely unchanged in the next revision (except perhaps the Warboss, who got a nice bump, and grots, who now shoot better). Most all other orks are the same.

Ballistic Skill 2 is a great feature for orks. Sure, they can't be relied on for shooting, but makes them extremely unique and fits the fluff for a fighting race.

Initiative 2 for orks is good too. Not in gameplay terms (have you ever fled combat successfully?), but definitely fits the ham-fisted nature.

The other iconic item for orks is their HtH ability. Pull out a literal handfull (or two-hands-full) of dice and let 'em fly! Sadly, the potency of orks, especially their staying power, has been dwindling over the years (changes to furious charge or ork charging rules, general HtH mechanics, and opponent shooting all playing a factor).

Also, orks share the same strength as a guardsman or Eldar. Tyranids are another S3 swarm-attack army. Something about that leaves a sour taste in my mouth when thinking of Orks.

But . . . What if the stats were changed a bit?



WS BS S T W A I LD SV
2 2 5 4 1 2 2 7 6++
So it's an increase in strength and decrease in weapon skill, which could be a cool change for orks. Slightly more damaging in combat . . . if they can hit you. But a unique role in the 40k Universe - something that is not shared by any other army and can be effective on the table.

The save of orks is something to consider here, namely their current 6+ save. Not wearing armor fits the theme, and also really hurts the gameplay. Once their toughness is overcome, orks drop really fast. A new stat line might look like a 6+ invulnerable save, claiming the ork psyche allows would-be wounds to somehow not matter or miss. The ork combined-psychic stuff was more prevalent in the 2nd and 3rd codecies, and a nearly equal alternative these days would be to give all orks a 6+ Feel No Pain save. Either way it slightly bumps survivability, which would be even more needed with the lower WS - orks would fall fast by shooting **and** before they fight in close combat.

What are your thoughts? I have some MathHammer thoughts below.

For these calculations I rounded down fractions at each stage. We're assuming 10 orks are fighting at that phase.
Marines stats are WS4, T4, 3+SV.
"Weaks" are WS3, T3, 5+SV, and might be Eldar, Guardsmen, etc.,
Agile are WS5, T3, 4+SV and might be some cool Eldar, or other armies "elite" HtH fighters.
Fighty Marines are WS5, T4, 3+SV

10 current slugga orks charging marines (+1 S): 40 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3 dead
10 current slugga orks charging weaks (+1 S): 40 attacks, 26 hits, 17 wounds, 11 dead
10 current slugga orks charging agile (+1 S): 40 attacks, 20 hits, 13 wounds, 6 dead
10 current slugga orks charging fighty marines (+1 S): 40 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3 dead

10 current slugga orks stuck-in with marines: 30 attacks, 15 hits, 5 wounds, 1 dead
10 current slugga orks stuck-in with weaks: 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 6 dead
10 current slugga orks stuck-in with agile: 30 attacks, 15 hits, 7 wounds, 3 dead
10 current slugga orks stuck-in with fighty marines: 30 attacks, 15 hits, 5 wounds, 1 dead

10 new slugga orks charging marines: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 13 wounds, 4 dead
10 new slugga orks charging weaks: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 17 wounds, 11 dead
10 new slugga orks charging agile: 40 attacks, 13 hits, 10 wounds, 5 dead
10 new slugga orks charging fighty marines: 40 attacks, 13 hits, 8 wounds, 2 dead

10 new slugga orks stuck-in with marines: 30 attacks, 15 hits, 10 wounds, 3 dead
10 new slugga orks stuck-in with weaks: 30 attacks, 15 hits, 12 wounds, 8 dead
10 new slugga orks stuck-in with agile: 30 attacks, 10 hits, 8 wounds, 4 dead
10 new slugga orks stuck-in with fighty marines: 30 attacks, 10 hits, 6 wounds, 2 dead

Results? Slightly more deadly in combat, especially when stuck-in. Hardest hit, marginally, are the marines when stuck in combat.

How about taking hits in combat, since the WS is now drastically lower:
20 attacks with current WS 4:
WS3, S3: 10 hits, 3 wounds
WS4, S4: 10 hits, 5 wounds
WS5, S3: 13 hits, 4 wounds
WS5, S4: 13 hits, 6 wounds

20 attacks with proposed WS 2:
WS3, S3: 13 hits, 4 wounds
WS4, S4: 13 hits, 6 wounds
WS5, S3: 13 hits, 4 wounds
WS5, S4: 13 hits, 6 wounds

In the end its easier to hit orks from the lower WS units and does not positively affect any of the Elite units. Hopefully a more reliable save (or other special rule) would help out here.

[coolguyclay]

New Thoughts on the Next Orks - Part 2: Weapons and Wargear
Orks are an iconic race in the Warhammer 40k Universe. The third edition codex turned a zany and unstructured army into the unified greenskins we know today, while the fourth/fifth edition codex carried on the theme. Fun to fight with or against, Orks have lost a little edge over the years, and with new codex looming later this year, it is a great time to talk about what the next Greenskins could look like!

The weapons back in the 2nd edition codex were a sight to behold. Pulsa Rokkits, Splatta Kannons and other zany artillery, along with a full arsenal of imperial weapons. Orks with actual Lascannons, Heavy Bolters and the like were regularly on the table. The 3rd edition codex streamlined ork weapon options to basically a shoota, big shoota, rokkit or burna. Simple and effective. 4th edition improved on the formula with actual "Assault" shootas, Lootas and the infamous Shokk Attack Gun. What might a new edition hold in store?

Weapons
Close combat weapons are not varied in an ork codex. It's basically either a choppa or a Power Klaw, especially on our characters. And since choppas lost their overall effectiveness by reducing all armor saves to 4+, the types of weapons are at two ends of the spectrum: Basic and Krump It! Sure, there is a Uge Choppa, but do many really take them? To give some variety and tactical options, consider:


* 'Uge Choppas gain Rending
* Choppas and 'Uge Choppas gain rules depending who wields them. For Warboss, Nobs, Boys, a choppa might be Rending, Normal, Normal and a 'Uge Choppa might be Power Axe, Rending, Normal.
* What if Uge Choppas could be used by Regular Boys? (Do I hear Skar Boyz?!!!)

Ranged weapons have a nice flavor for orks right now, and are unlike most any other Codex in the 40k Universe. I'll talk about options for the shootiest of the Orks, the nearly-overlooked Flash Gitz, and comment later. Imagine your new Flash Git Box Set:



Flash Gits must be equipped with either:
Flash Fast Guns - Range 24", Assault 5, S3, AP -, Shred
Flash 'Ard Guns - Range 24", Assault 3, S6, AP d6 (Roll of 1 or 2, Gets Hot!)
Up to two Flash Gits may take a bigger gun:
+10 points Flash Shot Gun - Template, Assault, S3, AP -, Shred (Uses the template, but this thing just kicks like a shotgun, or rather, 10 shotguns bolted together.)
+10 Points Flash Boom Guns - Range 36", Assault 1, Ordinance, S3 (More for look than effectiveness)


Tell me you wouldn't love to model that unit! Also remember, orks are BS2. The theme it could bring to the new codex is a hail of smaller strength shots. The current Big Shoota really is an effective weapon (ask Guardsmen!), but a new weapon for ork units that are solely anti-infantry would have its uses.

I personally wouldn't mind upgrading the ork artillery from kannons, zzap guns and lobbas to the Fluff-filled weapons of ages past. A little random down-side here, a little extra destruction there. It may not fit the "serious" game of 40k, and the Shock Attack Gun is a step in that direction, especially with its random doubles tables, but I like it.

Wargear
Ork wargear is in a pretty good place, and yet very generic for the codex. 'Eavy Armor, Boss Poles, and maybe a Cybork Body here or there. Some options that might get the flavor back:



Buzzer Squig StikkBombz - moving around the board like vortex clouds!
Update to Mega Armor - does it need more than 2+ save?
Painboy Fightin' Juice (like the memorable quote from Dawn of War) - One use only. Mob can run 6" without rolling for one turn.
Update to mek boy's KFF - either the mob he is with, model within 6", or some other change that doesn't let a string of orks confer a cover save halfway across the table. What feels right?

[coolguyclay]

New Thoughts on the next Orks - Part 3: Units and the next Big Thing
Orks are an iconic race in the Warhammer 40k Universe. The third edition codex turned a zany and unstructured army into the unified greenskins we know today, while the fourth/fifth edition codex carried on the theme. Fun to fight with or against, Orks have lost a little edge over the years, and with new codex looming later this year, it is a great time to talk about what the next Greenskins could look like!

Units
[COLOR=#333333]Over the years orks have always had an assortment of unit types to choose from. Far and away from a single troop choice of "tactical marines", the orks' affinity for special weapons or fighting styles have always been prevalent. The biggest example of this is the current edition's Elite section of the codex. Burna, Tankbusta, Loota, Kommando boys and two types of Nobz (regular and MANs). It is hard to not take a full allotment of elites, or fast, or heavy - depending on your army layout. I do wonder if there are more choices in the ork codex than any other? Anyone care to count?

Only a few more things could be added in the next codex and it would fill out all the orks we have known about. Which would only leave room for the ones we don't know about yet.

Skarboys - Maybe you've called them "Goff boys" ('cause dey're da kumpiest!), but basically these orks were somewhere in between a regular ork boy and a Nob. A little better at fighting . . . and that's saying something! An extra weapon skill, a 'Uge Choppa, maybe an extra strength (not if orks are S5, mind you) - but something to make a unit of regular choppa boys a bit more scary.

Cyboars - I'd say "snakebite boar boys" in general, but can't see anyone taking regular boars when cyboars would be available! Calvary options are a little limited these days and would have a nice fit with the Orks. Faster than normal orks, maybe just under Nob bikers in terms of survivability (+1 or +2 on that FNP save?) Models would be sweet too.

Allied Ogryns - Those big guys are almost orkier than some orks! (At least more so than weedy Deffskulls ;)) Perhaps a special unit-character that could bring a squad of Ogryns without all those squishy guard with them? They might have a nice fit, and the models are already out there.

I've heard talks of other things too: snotlings, teleporta boys, etc. Orks are such a varied race with such great fluff, they can really be anything.

Bigger Things

Each new codex has had a "big thing" and Orks likely won't be the exception. We have a huge tank in the Battlewagon, and while a FW-esque Mega Dread would be cool, many other armies have a big giant robot. Plus we have a Stompa. No, what the orks need is a plastic kit Squiggoth! I'm thinking two variants would be great, much like the WHFB Ogre Kingdoms Stonehorn and Thundertusk.

A stat line might be something like this:

Squiggoth
200 pts
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Type
3 0 6 6 5 2 3 7 4+ MC
12 Troop capacity (as an open topped vehicle in all respects).
Feel No Pain (4+), Rampage, Furious Charge, It Will Not Die


The idea being a nice, big, hard-to-take-down monster. A support variant might have some sort of shooting (bad-breath template weapon? Strapped armament like Dino Riders?) while a more straight-forward variant might just be equipped to charge head-long into combat. The FW Gargantuan Squiggoth is awesome, and seeing one painted in person is a sight to behold. Getting a small piece of that on the non-Apoc table would be a welcome addition to any ork army.

Hopefully we'll be pleasantly surprised by the ork units and "big guy" in the next codex.

[coolguyclay]

New Thoughts on the Next Orks - Part 4: Army Special Rules and Klans

Orks are an iconic race in the Warhammer 40k Universe. The third edition codex turned a zany and unstructured army into the unified greenskins we know today, while the fourth/fifth edition codex carried on the theme. Fun to fight with or against, Orks have lost a little edge over the years, and with new codex looming later this year, it is a great time to talk about what the next Greenskins could look like!

Army-Wide Special Rules

When playing a race, either with or against, the rules and play-style of the army need to feel like the race itself. What rules can be used that fit within the game system and still make a particular codex unique and playable. The orks are very flavorful race, though on the table they are a little lackluster. Is there a way to bridge the gap?

Two types of army special rules were introduced in the 3rd edition codex, one for offense (Choppas!) and one for "defense" (Mob Up). The army's special rules helped fill a few gaps missing from ork units and stats in general. What about a rule like this:

Da Green Tide: When rolling for charge distance, if the distance rolled is 8 or above, regardless if distance actually moved, each ork killed before the ork player's first initative step (by Overwatch, high initiatives, etc.) can make a single Hammer of Wrath attack at the the ork player's first initative step.

The target number could be changed, 9+, 7+ etc, and the effect could be different (unit gains Rage or Hatred for a round, +2 initiative, etc), but the general idea being a boost for what orks do best, and are known for, charging! Waaagh!

The Mob Up rule disappeared in the 4th edition of the codex, and in reality it wasn't such a huge loss. Rallying is easier these days, getting a mob shot to death is much easier these days, and Orks NEVER successfully flee from a lost combat thanks to sub-basement initiative. Not many chances to Mob Up. The de-facto defensive change people pine for is a 6+ FNP save (only because 5+ feels too overpowered ;)), and I even mentioned it in my first post in this series. The more I've been thinking, what if a "defensive" army wide special rule was like this:

Always Bring Enough Boys: All boys mobs have Regeneration 6+

The biggest downside to orks these days is how painfully easy it is to get them off the table. T4 is nice, but 6+ armor doesn't cut it. Any ork player knows the pains of starting second against a good shooting list - and how you can only hope to bring a fourth of your army list to their front lines, meanwhile piling up dead bodies that you can't pull off the table fast enough. Regeneration on boys mobs has a nice ring to it, where even if 15 boys died, you'd roll 15 dice to bring 2-3 back! A returned boy is better than armor anyway, and would really fill the fluff of swarms of orks overriding a battlefield.

Also, the ork leadership being based on the number of models is great, but should really be based on the number of wounds remaining in the mob. Nob units, and just Nobs in general, should count more than they do when adjusting leadership.

Unit Special Rules
Some units in the ork codex could use a tweaking, to keep them playable, and feared as they should be. Biggest case is Slugga Boys, and to those new ork players, that's an ork with a choppa and slugga i.e. the Hand To Hand version of an ork boy. Shoota Boys are almost inherently better these days, and there something wrong with that! Slugga Boys would be used more, and have more of a game impact, with a USR applied only to them. Perhaps Counter Charge. Perhaps better HtH weapons than the butt of a rifle (a la, a Choppa : )

Special weapons in normal ork boy mobs leave a little to be desired. Not necessarily in quality (It's a decent racial handicap to have limited ability to deal with armor), but in quantity. Most other armies can get two special weapons for every 10 models - tac squads, gaurd, etc. Orks are capable of large mobs for sure, and perhaps an ork mob (or at least a Shoota Mob) should be allowed to purchase one special weapon for every six boys in the mob.

Nobs are another sore point for the ork codex, as the degeneration of ork ability has led many mobs to simply be "Nob Delivery Vehicles". Orks players know to to protect the Power Klaw, because you S3 boys will kill maybe as many enemies as your nob will. In this edition, Nob are often nullified by Challenges - better to lose one leader than 2-3 troops for combat resolution. A decent change would be to allow a Nob for every (10, 12, 15) boys in the mob. Definitely would make an ork mob more exciting, wouldn't it? : ) What if one of the nobs could be upgraded to a Painboss, or Big Mek for the mob?!! Waaagh!!

I could go on and on. New Weirdboys psycher rules, Ork appropiate Warboss Traits, changes to make Snikrot usable again, etc. But one more thing needs mentioning...

Klan Rules

Orks klans have always been a part of the fluff, almost like Space Marine Chapters, only for ork society. Prominent in the 2nd edition codex as named mobs, hardly existent in the 4th edition of the codex. A way to choose a klan for your army, that is fun, playable and fluffy - that's the goal! Consider:

When choosing an Ork klan, armies may take affinity units as troops choices, must take at least 3 affinity units, and all affinity units gain the listed rules.
Goff -> Nobs, Skarboys, 'Ard Boys, Slugga Boys. Only 1 mob of slugga boys may count toward this limit. - All Nob, Skar, 'Ard and Slugga Boy units gain the Stubborn USR.
Snakebites -> Boar boys, Big Mob, Squiggoths - Boarboys gain Skilled Rider USR. All Affinity units gain Move Through Cover.
Evil Sunz -> Storm boys, Deff Koptas, Biker boys - Affinity units gain the Outflank USR.
Blood Axe -> Kommandos, Looted Wagons - Kommandos may charge the turn they come in from reserves. Looted Wagons may reroll "Don't Press Dat!"
Deff Skulls -> Lootas, Looted Wagons with Boom Kannon upgrade. Lootas gain the Skyfire and Monster Hunter USRs. Looted Vehicles may reroll one (or both) dice for their scatter distance (but not the scatter die)
Bad Moons -> Mega Nobz, Flash Gits, Shoota Boys. Only 1 mob of shoota boys may count toward this limit. - All weapon upgrades ("be upgraded to" or "replace with" or "take a") for any troop Choices cost 3 points less, each, to represent their wealth. (After paying for 2 mobs of MANz or Gitz - you'll need a discount!)


Doesn't have to be substantial rule buffs, but giving Ork players the chance to play their chosen klan would go a long way to restoring the fluff some have only read about.


I'm sure there are many other good ideas to help out the orks in their next codex. Rules to keep them playable, rules to help their game, and most of all to help keep their story going (and exciting!). What would you do for Klans? For Weirdboy spells (or rules)?

[coolguyclay]

New Thoughts on the Next Orks - Part 5: Waaagh! Da Orks!!!

Orks are an iconic race in the Warhammer 40k Universe. The third edition codex turned a zany and unstructured army into the unified greenskins we know today, while the fourth/fifth edition codex carried on the theme. Fun to fight with or against, Orks have lost a little edge over the years, and with new codex looming later this year, it is a great time to talk about what the next Greenskins could look like!

An ork special rule available since the 3rd codex was "The Waaagh!" A pile of ork energy unleashed at the face of the enemy, and often with devastating results! It was a coup de grace of a melee oriented codex and fit the fluff so well. What direction will the new codex take?

The Ork Dakka Jet, part of a White Dwarf rule-set on Fliers, got to double its shots when shooting on a turn the Waaagh was called, which for a Dakka Jet (with upgrade) meant 18 shots instead of 9! Applying that idea across the ork army would be very nice, giving shooting units more or better shots and choppy units a better way to fight. Many unique and flavorful rules could come from an implementation like that. It also might get too complicated, with all the different rules to remember on one turn on the game. (On the other hand, this is 40k we're talking about :D)

The current codex with Fleet of Foot really isn't a bad option, given the random charge distances. Instead of an average of 6"-7", now the orks might average 8"-9". If the army-wide special rule were in affect that boosted charges on high rolls (see Part 4 in this series), The Waaagh!!! turn could just make it automatic when charging, no matter the distance. An extra effort, but already within the army limits.

Final Thoughts

I'll still argue that orks are the most flavorful race in the 40k universe. Variety of units and wargear, almost-comical fluff, a unique playing style, ork klans - this next codex could be a book! (Or more than likely, over 10 supplements, each value priced :D) Whomever writes this next codex will have a lot to live up to, from the compact unification of orks from 2nd to 3rd editions, to the large variety and expectations of many favorite ork units and rules.

This has been a fun series to write and and I do hope our beloved greenskins are done justice with a new book. The flavor of the game has changed even since this series began, with the releases of the Knight Titan, Legion of the Damned, and others. Can the orks keep up? Will they be fun to play in the current landscape? Will they have the flavor of orks past? Time will tell, and until that time I'll be looking forward to them. Waaagh!!!

[Mr.Pickelz]

The problem I have with Orks being downed to WS:2 is that against most dedicated assault units, you'd be hitting on 5's if you can hit at all. The lower Initiative value coupled with the 6+ armor save means they have little survivability, if that were to go up to 3 and have Nobz at 4, then they would be a way bigger threat and have a better impact on the assault phases. Having a strength 5 on the stat line gives the impression that a single Ork boy could pick up a Space Marine and caber-toss him with ease, that doesn't seem right, Maybe a Nob, but not a standard Boy. coupled with Power Klaws Nobz would be at Str10 always as would Warbosses, giving little difference as far as combat goes. It would be nice to see Choppa's regain the old ability to reduce armor saves to a 4+.
Something I probably won't ever see is boosting Ghazkull's "Waagh!" to give all orks the switching of armor save to invul save. So Meganobz would have a 2+ invul save for a game turn, and Bikerz would gain 4+, etc...
This would give Orks a drastically bigger defensive buff then just Fearless, which most mobs should have due to "Mob Rule". This might mess with things like Grav-Guns, that wound on armor save. (as that stat would dissapear) However, the buff is sorely needed, making the save into a "Feel No Pain" type of save would be a bit over-powered as it would be in addition to a cover or invul save. (Cybork Body upgrade)

[coolguyclay]

For those reading, Part 2 is posted. What do you think? Any needed weapons or wargear for the new orks?

[MajorWesJanson]

For those reading, Part 2 is posted. What do you think? Any needed weapons or wargear for the new orks?

What I would like to see as far as various bits of wargear
Flash Gitz go is a base weapon profile, say S5 AP4 24" Assault 2, then a chart that you roll on at the start, basically like the Jokaero chart, that adds stats to the gun based on what you roll. +1 Str, +1 AP, +6" range, +1 shot, ect. Then let them buy 1 or maybe even 2 more rolls on the chart for x points per model.

Big Choppa goes from +2 Str to +1 Str AP4 Rending.
Remove Power weapon ability from the burnas, let normal boyz mobs take burnas in addition to big shootas or rokkets.
KFF I would change to a 5++ Inv save for models within 6"
Bosspole ought to be like a Vet sergeant upgrade. +1 Ld and +1 A to the model carrying it.

Grot Riggers becomes a 4+ save vs Immobilized results, not a 4+ to repair them later.

Allow basic boyz and Nobz units to take 'eavy armor (4+)for x points a model (say 3 for a boy, 6 for a nob), and skar boy upgrade (+1I maybe) for x points per model. No limits on how many units can.


The big one: Make Waaagh the army wide ability- take the lead of the dakkajet, and give each unit a special waaagh ability that triggers when the waaagh is called. Boyz become fearless and gain fleet for the turn. Lootas gain +1 BS for the turn. Nobz get rerolls to hit. Tank Hunters gain armorbane. things like that.

[Pyredragon]

In response to your proposed ork statline.... No,no,no,no,no,no,no,fricking no!

Seriously, WS 2? An Ork boy who spends his life punching things in the face once he crawls out of the muck now no longer hits better than a grot? Having to roll 5's to hit all the time is NOT a good trade off for 3's to wound on MEQ's. You know, the single most common army in the entire game?

I have over 3000pts of Orkz and I can tell you if they dropped to this statline I'd probably eat the pages of my book. Currently a Mob of boyz biggest problem is relying on the charge, which a smart opponent will deny you. No one wants hit 4's and wounded on 4's with buckets of dice.

And I don't even know where you pulled ld7 out of, that's what the Nobbinz is for you git!

The boyz stats are probably gonna stay the same, which is kind of sad because I would love to see them S4 and S5 for Nobbins but GW's design team will probably point at 'Furious Charge' and say "There ya go, all fixed!" I even doubt after the debacle that was nids we'll get that magical army wide FnP we're daydreaming about.

Your proposed fix to flashgits is... well yeah that really needs work, if Flashgits come out with those options in 6th they will continue to not be fielded, at all.

An assault 5 lasgun that rerolls to wound? Do you only krump squishy stuff? I would love if it my meta didn't have so much MEQ. Honestly there is a reason that people laugh at flashlighs unless there is a blob of fifty gaurdsmen who just recieved orders to 'FRFSRF'. I want Flashgits to be attractive come our new book, not the new pyrovore!

The only thing I've seen you suggest that doesn't make me wanna stomp ya for not being orky is the buzzer squig bomb, dat dere sounds good for a laugh.

There's lots I'd love to see for my Boyz to change for the good, but I'd rather not get my hopes up till I have the book in my hands to be honest.

[Veteran Sergeant]

3 3 4 4 should be the Ork statline. Proppa Orkz Boyz (http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2077orkboyz-01.jpg) shoot. Crumpin' is fer if dey happens to get close. After all, it's called moar dakka, not moar choppa.


Adjust their points values slightly upward to account for the better shooting, and give Ork players the options to create more dynamic manuver based army lists. Give them back some of the sillier guns and vehicles again.

[Houghten]

Update to Mega Armor - does it need more than 2+ save?

Before Space Marines' 6th Edition Codex I would have said "no," but now that Centurions are also a 2+ with 2 wounds - which was basically what made Meganobz special and not just "worse Terminators" - I think Meganobz need to raise their game and bring 3 wounds (it should also confer an extra wound to a character).

Not to mention that the plastic kit is going to need options. Boss poles, painboy bitz, a Waaagh! banner at the very least. At the moment the unit can take kombi-weapons and zog-all else.

[coolguyclay]

The tricky thing about GW's current stat system is it tends toward the bottom. Stats have a value of 1-10, and their super-heros (Marines) have a value of 4. There isn't much room to work with below that. Really everything should shift a bit so Marines have a Strength of 6, big things have 7, large monsters have 8, etc. Then there would be room for Orks, Guard, Eldar, Tau, etc below that magic number, with some variation for each. Of course, that would require an overhaul of everything all at once . . .

The proposed Ork stats were to try an distinguish them from the other races, fitting into the current 40k stat structure. Mathmatically, it didn't hurt the boys at all (so long as the To Hit chart doesn't change, WS2 still hits WS4 on 4+, not 5+…). Throwing another WS4 S4 stat-line on the field is very cookie cutter to me, as far as the game system goes.

Anyway, I like the insights you are pulling out, which was the point of this whole thing - to get us thinking about the new Orks! I'd like to see your comments again when the next part in the series comes out : )

[coolguyclay]

For those reading, Part 3 is posted. Any other units that the new ork codex should have? Have a vote for a must-have unit choice in the next codex?

[Da Gargoyle]

I love Orks but dropped them with the new codex, that is not so new these days. Things I hated that changed was the loss of the ability to kit out the Nobs with boss poles, iron jaws and the like. I also think butchering the Waaagh to a 1 time all the boys charge was horrific. I think keep the WS4, S3 or 4 and toughness up to 5. BS does not need to change because Ork shootas are assault 2 weapons, which means 20 S4 shots is going to do something.

As some one said, bring back Choppas, mobbing up and extra stuff, iron jaws for a start. Let units like lootas get a Nob so they can have a decent chance of not running when they take 25% shooting casualties. Either ditch Flash Gitz or drop the ridiculous points cost so they are usable in a game, they would make a great spear head for charges. Let the Big Guns have their Mekboys back. Let Mega Nobs have their Bionics back. I know its an invulnerable save, but its a tease, 5+ isn't really 3 to 1 against, it's worse.

If you want to see what WS2 is really like, look what happens to Killa Kans, I had a squad of Guardians (WS4 by the way) do two in one combat.

I can see that the re-introduction of some of the old rules would mean taking the points cost of your basic boy back up again. Eldar guardians went from 8 to 9 with the new WS & BS stat's. Something like that would not be too bad for the orks. And as a final first thought, let them go back to at least two if not three heavy weapons regardless of the size of the mob. Limiting it to 1 every 10 boys was unfair given they don't have the range other armies have. And with a BS2 Rokkits are not currently worth it.

P.S. Get rid of that stupid Glory Hounds rule for tank bustas, or at least make it a leadership check which is improved by 1 if there is a nob in the mob.

[coolguyclay]

For those reading, Part 4 is posted. Rules seem to make the armies once a stat line is in place. What rules would you like to see? What rules absolutely must be there?

[Bambi]

I don't think GW will, or should, alter the stats for boyz and nobs. However, i do think a 6+ feel no pain save would be good and fit with the fluff of orks being tough and dum creatures. Alternatively, something like gaining feel no pain on the turn orks charge could work well, providing them with something of a counter to the damage that overwatch can do and representing their berserk eagerness to get into combat.

I'm not totally sold on the squiggoth although i'm sue it would look cool. I'd rather see something different like sguig herds/giant squigs, a new super dakka flakk tank or large deffkopta (possibly with transport capacity), but that's just my personal preference.

[MajorWesJanson]

For those reading, Part 4 is posted. Rules seem to make the armies once a stat line is in place. What rules would you like to see? What rules absolutely must be there?

Waaagh should expand to be an army-wide special rule for units. Not how it is now, where models get fearless and fleet, but like the dakkajet, where each unit has a special rule that triggers on the waagh. Say shoota boys get pinning on their shooting when the waaagh is called, slugga/choppa boyz get fleet, lootas gain relentless, nobz gain hatred, ect.

[coolguyclay]

For those still reading, Part 5 is posted. A short finale. Thanks for reading, this was a fun series to write about and I hope expectations (and hype!) grow for the release of the next ork codex.

[Azhrarnx]

I have some general suggestions.
Stat line should be WS3 BS2 S4 T4 W1 A2 I2 Ld7 Sv6+

This reflects the Orks skill in HTH but lack of skill in shooting, a strength appropriate to a hulking alien designed for war, toughness as well. 2 attacks seems ok. Initiative 2 seems low and I would actually prefer 3 but I can already hear the howl of whiners. Ld7 as a default but Ld should be the highest leader in 12 inches from the squad.

The 6+ save should be invulnerable and this is due to their fungus based structure, resistance to damage, lack of pain sensors, and Orky Psychic field, plus plain ol Orky dumb luck.

Remember these creatures were created by the most ancient race to fight the Necrontyr after the Eldar project failed. And they survived and thrived even through the enslaver plague.

On to units.

Slugga boyz should need a trukk as mandatory. Shoota boyz a trukk should be optional. A Nob should always be assigned to any boyz squad.

Bikers never test for last man, and create a LOS 4+ invulnerable save (both ways) to any unit whose LOS they block.

Loota boyz should have the option to be 'Shooty' (d3 shots per model of d6 strength rolled for all shots that turn) or 'Killy' (D6 shots per squad with str d6+3 rolled for all shots that turn) You must decide what kind of loota mob before the game and stick with it the whole game 'killy' would most likely add 50% to the cost of the basic 'shooty' unit

Jump pack boyz should basically be slugga boyz with double movement and on a 6 (D6) move an additional 2D6 deviated.

There should be rules for Rebel Grots as long as a Mega Dread Kan/ or Grot hero acts as a boss. Grot tanks and looted vehicles, etc.

Now Looted vehicles..here is where it gets interesting. Orks should be able to loot any mechanical vehicle from any army. You don't think their creators would have programmed this into them?

IG vehicles, Marine vehicles, Imperial Navy flyers, Eldar vehicles, DE vehicles, Tau vehicles and suits, anything vaguely mechanical.

How would this work? they pay the normal points for the vehicle given the parent vehicle codex cost.
Each turn they roll a D6

On a 1-3 the vehicle acts normally.

On a 4 the vehicle does nothing (no movement or shooting) (flyers deviate move)

On a 5 the vehicle travels it max move deviated (If it moves off the board it is gone, if it collides with a unit it tank shocks the unit(s), if it collides with terrain it takes a penetrating hit.) It may still shoot normally after movement if possible. Flyers land at end of movement, if they contact a unit they shock it, if they contact a terrain piece they are destroyed and all occupants take a str 6 hit and survivors are pinned.

On a 6 it shoots at the closest unit with all weapons and takes a glancing hit. It may move normally.

GW wants to sell every possible vehicle to Ork players waiting to convert them Orky style, here is a chance to make that happen.

Add Gobsmashers (Kult of Speed only) (AV12 fast vehicles with a forward mounted battle cannon), and Mekboy speedsta deathrays (Kult of Speed, Mekboss led army only) (AV10 fast vehicle with twin linked zzap guns fixed foward)

Bring back Warpheads but add something new. They can either (pick one)
give a 4+ invulnerable save to all orks within 24" once per game,
call down a wrath of Gork(or Mork) strike once per game anywhere on the field (large template with standard deviation SD6+4 AP 2, 2 wounds on fail) or
attempt to take control (5+ on a D6) of any Necron unit or vehicle (including monoliths) for one turn per game within 24" (Orks were custom designed to fight Necrons)
After any ability is used the model is removed.

Bring back squig-herders with swarms of attack squigs and the ability to attempt to control (5+ on a D6) any tyranid model (Including Carnifexes) sans the HQ ones for one turn per game. (He learned to sing the song of the squig)

The Warboss should have his Waaagh once per game giving all orks on the table double move and a 5+ invulnerable save plus an Init of 4 (during the turn he Waaaghed) If a vehicle double moves it takes an auto glancing hit.

A 'Hit the field running' option that if chosen either 1-4 on a D6 allows for a free turn of movement (No Waagh allowed) before the start of game but after placement or on a 5-6 no movement may occur for any unit or vehicle on the first turn. Shooting may happen normally.

The randomness of Orky armies should play a big theme. Orks are like that and Orky players love it when things go right and even laugh as things go horribly wrong. If you don't like randomness then Orks are not the army for you.

I am sure I will think of new things to edit add to this but I am very tired currently.

The Sausage Grot approves of this (Especially the Rebel Grot part)

[Power Klawz]

I disagree wit the majority of the suggestions made in this thread, as a lot of them seem very impractical and judging by previous 6th edition releases they won't be reinventing the wheel (or the ork, I guess.)

Looking at things I'd consider plausible to likely, I don't think we'll see a stat line change in your basic ork boy. It's a good statline that plays well to their nature, run at things shooting wildly before bashing some heads. Bs2 also lets you have some really great weapons that would be rather terrifying in the hands of more accurate troops. I like the counterbalance and the potential for amazing damage, albeit at a low probability. Orks are a gamblers army.

The key issues with orks right now are basically the same that all assault based armies face.

Survivability vs. cost: A horde army needs threat saturation and the ability to move quick enough that certain elements don't get left behind, allowing the enemy to easily prioritize his kills without fear of being overrun. Orks can be pretty fast with cheap, quick transports and a few really great fast units. Against the sort of firepower that some lists can put out rather casually, however, they can be decimated en masse before they get to grips with the enemy. Now I feel you can solve this problem a few ways. You can either decrease unit cost to provide more targets and increase the likelihood that enough bodies will make it across the field to rumble. I don't think this is a viable solution for orks, who are really all ready rather cheap for what they do. The other tact would be to increase their toughness somehow, either through improved armor, toughness or some special rule. I've heard rumblings about giving them army wide feel no pain in some context or another, and I feel that's the way to go. You could also turn docs into sort of floater characters instead of nob unit upgrades, letting them effect fnp rolls in some way. Either offering rerolls or improving them.

Some potential impacts of this.

Lets say that "boy" level units get a 6+fnp, nob level units rock 5+ and warbosses, hell lets give them a 4+ just to be mean. Lets also say that docs let you reroll failed fnp checks. This configuration is likely too powerful, but I'll use it for the sake of explanation.

30 boys being shot at by 10 firewarriors at BS4 due to markerlights. Lets assume they're preparing to assault next turn and so are lurking within rapid fire range. That's 20 shots, 10 hits, 6.66 kills. Now if we throw in a 6+ fnp that becomes 5.55 kills, we've save 1.11 orks all ready! A reroll nets us 4.63 kills instead, helping us save slightly more than 2 statistical orks! We are about 30% more survivable.

Obviously str 8+ artillery becomes the bane of orks existence at this point, but its not as though they're overly fond of it at the moment anyways. Even without the reroll we're still saving one or two guys from a decent round of shooting, with the potential for good rolls that can wipe out shooting damage. Of course in close combat with non power weapon wielding enemies this effect is multiplied as you generally get both an armor save and a fnp save, thus making orks more survivable once they get stuck in, which is as it should be in my opinion. One final suggestion I would have would be to tweak Waaagh! slightly to interact with this rule. I don't think they're going to make it let you run then assault, as they've had ample opportunity to work in a rule like that with eldar and tyranids and decided to pass, so I feel it willl likely still just grant fleet for your entire army on the turn it is used, however if it also increased fnp saves by one for that turn this would give you a rather huge tactical boost. If you can maneuver well enough to set up multiple charges on your Waaagh! turn then you can be rewards with an improved resistance to both overwatch fire and close combat wounds that round. Given orks abysmal initiative this might be just what the doctor ordered. Army wide 5+ fnp with rerolls for doc units has the potential to win you games. However for full effect you need to coordinate your attack so that the majority of your army is within striking range on the turn that you fire it off. Its not exactly an "IWIN" button and requires some finesse to properly apply while also being extremely powerful. Having individual unit interactions with the WAAAGH! seems interesting on the surface, but I feel it would bog the game down to have to remember every special interaction. It would be nice if say, lootas got relentless instead of fleet, but I don't think it would add too much to the army all in all.

So you've got army wide fnp and you can soak a few more bullets and take a few more blows to the head. After that where do you go?

Orks can all ready hand out a decent amount of wounds to most targets through sheer volume of attacks on the charge. Once they're stuck in for the long grind however things tend to be more difficult. Obviously this is by design as you want orks to strike in overwhelming numbers to eliminate targets. However they're still not properly killy in my opinion, especially considering the difficulty inherent in reaching close combat in this edition.

I propose that you give choppas rending-lite on the charge. (Similar to what eldar shuriken weapons get, no added armor penetration but ap2 on a 6 to wound.) This is in keeping with their "strike fast, strike hard" motif but tend to even the playing field against more elite units that fail to properly thin the hordes before they are met in glorious melee.

Lets take a look at a few scenarios.

We started with 30 boyz who had to traverse the field. Lets assume we had enough credible threats marching in tandem to take some of the focus off of them, but a few tactical squads have taken their toll. 2 rounds of foot slogging against marines, lets say they're down to 20. They take some shots with their sluggas and kill a bolter toting marine, then they make their charge. Let's assume this squad was rocking a plasma cannon that can't fire overwatch, a plasma gun, a bolt pistol and the rest bolters. that's 14 bolter shots, 2 plasma and one pistol. That's about one or two dead orks with fnp rolls in there, closer to 1 if you got the fnp bonus from a waaagh! You hit home with 17 ork boyz and a nob ready for some ruckus. Lets assume no challenges take place and that the nob is wearing a power klaw. 9 space marines with a sergeant attack 10 times, hit 5 times, wound 2.5 times. 2.08 failed armor saves will occur. This becomes 1.74 wounds with a 6+ fnp and 1.39 with a 5+. Lets say we lose another ork before we can attack back (instead of a very likely two without fnp.) Now we strike back with the fury of a thousand squigs with 64, str4 mini rending attacks and 4 power klaw attacks. That's 2.67 mini rending wounds and 1.78 normal unsaved wounds from the boyz, along with 1.67 wounds from the nob. That's 6.12 dead space marines, combined with the one from before and you've only got 3 left, that's a decided victory for the orks who managed to get the charge off. The next round of course they will perform much less spectacularly, but the damage is all ready done. Even terminators would have taken a thrashing, forcing enemies to maneuver away from ork hordes and possibly giving you a tactical advantage in dictating the battlefield, right now it is unpleasant to take a charge from orks buy many units can survive it and even triumph, with choppas being ap2 on 6s it becomes ill advised to ever let orks get the charge, and so the enemy has to adjust accordingly.

I think those two changes would make orks very competitive, perhaps even too competitive.