Considering Starting Grey Knights....

[ElectricPaladin]

As you may have heard, my FLGS is doing an Inquisition War campaign starting in a month or two, and as a result, I'm building an inquisitor and her retinue to Ally with and lead my Knights of Blood. It wouldn't take very many models - two Troops squads at minimum - to turn them into a small Grey Knights force (HQ, Elites, and two Troops... not bad), and that would be kind of neat.

I'll probably regret this - I only just got rid of my Exorcists, for crying out loud! - but what can you all tell me about how the Grey Knights play? Are they distinct enough from my Blood Angels-'dex Knights of Blood that I'll get mileage out of both? How well would they play with my Sisters of Battle?

Thanks in advance.

[DarkLink]

Grey Knights are very, very different from other Marines.

They focus much more heavily on foot-slogging that other Marines, so you're mostly moving 6" a turn. It's not slow, per se, but it does mean you have to be very careful when you're moving, because deploying in the wrong spot or moving in the wrong direction can take you out of the fight.

In shooting, they mostly rely on 24" range (30" threat range since everything can move and shoot) weight of fire with Storm Bolters and Psycannons. You can back them up with Rifleman Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks, but I recommend Red Hunters or Eldar allies for extra firepower (likely Red Hunters if you're doing this partially for fluff reasons). Take your GK units, take a Dread or two, and some long ranged SM firepower like Thunderfire Cannons or Sicarius Battle Tanks.

You have access to Divination via Coteaz (and Inquisitors and Librarians).

Everything is better than average in assault. It also means that you're spending points on something that won't help you in a lot of games, with 6th's emphasis on shooting. But GKs trump their equivalent points from most other armies in assault, and Paladins with Draigo are the best assault unit in the game, bar none. Terminators and Paladins will kill everything they touch, Terminators just happen to be a lot more fragile.


I've mostly been playing Draigowing, which is still brutal but struggles a lot to fit in take-all-comers tools and is terrible at high-objective games.

Storm Ravens are great, but expensive. Dreadknights are massively overpriced, but fun. All the GK units are solid, but you really need to find a way to make them scoring. Your stuff is so expensive that you basically need to load up on troops. That mainly eliminates Interceptors, Purifiers (because taking Crowe is a bad idea), and Purgation squads from most lists. You can take one, maybe two, though if you have a Grand Master you can make them scoring, so it's possible to make them work.


Funny thing, seems like no one plays GKs anymore. I think there were 3 at the LVO.


Edit:
Oh, and they do work pretty with with SoB. Sisters provide (relatively) cheap scoring, some long ranged firepower, and Seraphim are great harassment units with St. Celestine. You can make a decent army there.

[Deadlift]

Are Halberds still the cc weapon of choice with the odd hammer thrown in ?

[DarkLink]

It depends on the unit.

For GKSS and Interceptors, all the CC upgrades are far too expensive. The only decent options are a Halberd on the Justicar for cheap I6 in challenges, and maybe a Hammer or two, but you don't want the Hammer on the Justicar and he's the only one with 2A so it's probably not worth it.

Purifiers have cheap upgrades, so you can either keep them cheap with Swords, give them some Halberds for pocket change, and/or throw in a Hammer or two, to taste.

Purgation Squads get cheap Halberds, but they're mainly a shooting unit, so I'd just keep them cheap with Swords.

Paladins and Terminators should mostly have Hammers. They will *****-slap anything they touch in assault. I put more Swords on Paladins, because they're tough enough to tank any high-Initiative stuff and the only things that actually threaten them in assault are things like Thunderhammers, so you really want the extra Invulnerable save buff. On Terminators, that doesn't matter as much, so you can take more Halberds.

Falchions are pretty much never worth it. Warding Staves are great, but expensive, so I usually only buy them if I've got points lying around. Always take the Brotherhood Banner, it's very, very worth it.

[ElectricPaladin]

What ranged special weapon do you recommend on terminator squads? My instincts say incinerator, since I'm likely to Deep Strike them aggressively and I want to be prepared to receive the charge. I find myself wanting to take force halberds on them for the same reason: the best defense is a good offensive, and between wall of flames and tons of psybolt ammo storm bolter shots in Overwatch and striking at Initiative 6 (plus extra attacks from a Brotherhood Banner covering for receiving the charge and loosing attacks), I can create a squad that my opponent neither wants to charge nor be charged by. Giving my opponent his choice of bad choices is my favorite. Between that and the fire support oriented chimera-riding inquisitorial retinue I have planned, I think I've got the start of a solid army list.

[ElectricPaladin]

So a 1500 points list that might look like this:

HQ
• Ordo Malleus Inquisitor w/Terminator Armor, Psycannon - Psyker Upgrade (Divination)

Elites
• Retinue w/3 Acolytes (Flak Armor and Plasma Guns), 2 Crusaders, 2 Death Cult Assassins, Jokaero Weaponsmith
° Inquisitorial Chimera w/Heavy Bolters, Psybolt Ammo

Troops
• 5 Terminators w/Halberds, 1 Incinerator, 1 Brotherhood Banner
• 5 Terminators w/Hammers, 1 Psycannon, 1 Brotherhood Banner

Allied HQ
• Canoness w/Power Sword, Rosarius

Allied Troops
• 10 Battle Sisters w/Vet, 2 Flamers, Simulacrum Imperialis
° Rhino w/Dozer Blade
• 10 Battle Sisters w/Vet, 2 Flamers, Simulacrum Imperialis
° Rhino w/Dozer Blade

Allied Fast Attack
• 5 Dominions w/Vet, 2 Meltaguns, Simulacrum Imperialis
° Immolator w/Dozer Blade, Multi-Meltas

At the start of the game, my opponent is facing down a rolling chimera bunker that's throwing out tons of good Strength shots, potentially twin-linked, potentially at up to two different targets, flanked by two rhinos (to protect its AV 10 sides), with an immolator either getting up in his grill and popping some vehicle he'd rather I not molest or outflanking. The two terminator squads can teleport in wherever needed to support my battle line. One of my two terminators is kitted out to annoy infantry (flame templates, high Initiative to deal with counterchargers) while the other has high Strength weaponry to punch tanks and monsters (hammers, psycannon).

Practically everything except for my inquisitor and his buddies and my dominions can score, which is neat. The only thing this list really lacks is long-range firepower - which I could fix in larger games by adding in an exorcist - and anything to take on fliers, but there's no easy way to fix that.

What do you think? Am I on the right track here?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Grey Knights could be fun, but I'd be concerned that doing a silver/red close-range-shooty/choppy MEQ army might feel redundant for a Knights of Blood player! Maybe consider a full-INQ army (either through a counts-as coteaz, or adding in requisitioned imp guard)?

[ElectricPaladin]

Grey Knights could be fun, but I'd be concerned that doing a silver/red close-range-shooty/choppy MEQ army might feel redundant for a Knights of Blood player! Maybe consider a full-INQ army (either through a counts-as coteaz, or adding in requisitioned imp guard)?

That's an interesting thought, especially if GW comes out with that plastic knight-titan the rumormill is talking about. I can see that being fun on the tabletop: an inquisitor and his band in a chimera, a couple of vet squads in chimerae, a couple of the nastier IG tanks, and an enormous knight-titan towering over it all...

[ElectricPaladin]

...though, on the other hand, the Imperial Guard has never really thrilled me. Perhaps I'll wait and see what's in their next codex. I could dig walls of tanks and giant robots, but enormous blobs of squishy infantry have never been my thing. I prefer the heroic stand of the few to the stampede of the many.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Yeah, what I think would be a good fit for me in that situation won't necessarily be for you. I tried Grey Knights once, following my Chaos, (back in their metal days), but got bored of the idea of having more marines pretty quickly and the few Knights I had have given themselves to Slaanesh (although still awaiting paint).

And yeah, if I were to do Guard, it'd probably be a minimum of Chimera-Vets as Troops, backed up with a buttload of big tanks. Hmm. Maybe that would work with a "Flesh and steel" vibe - lots of tanks backed up by underdressed gladiator looking Inquisitorial Death Cults, Flagellants and Crusaders. Now I'm kinda tempted to make an army like that :P

[DarkLink]

Psycannons are the way to go, with Psybolts on large squads (~8 Storm Bolters) if you've got the points. Incinerators are good, they're just not that useful compared to Psycannons. That said, you can absolutely plan around dropping templates on your opponent after jumping out of, say, a Land Raider, or some other means of quickly delivering them. In fact, in the Daemonhunters codex, where Psycannons were pretty crappy, dual Incinerators out of a Land Raider was the list.

Also, as good as flamers are on Overwatch, Prescienced Psycannons are just as good. If you're playing Paladins or Terminators, though, you will virtually never be charged, except maybe by something like a Seer Council.

[ElectricPaladin]

Yeah...

I hate to say it - when I first started 40k, I swore I'd never play Space Marines (that lasted all of six months before I bought my buddy's Blood Angels, who eventually became my Knights of Blood) - but the Astartes are a great fit for me.

• Adaptable playstyle that focuses on a few highly mobile and versatile pieces? Check.
• The heroic few standing tall against tides of enemy monstrosities? Check.
• Opportunity to paint lots of cool-looking machinery, armor, and a decent variety of vehicles? Check.
• Visually coherent army, but tied together with lots of cool little fiddly bits to lavish details upon? Check.

I almost started with Grey Knights because I heard that the model count was so small, and now, with the opportunity to build an Inquisitorial force, they are calling to me once more...

Maybe I need to find some other way to paint them than "silver." I could go with grey armor and metallic gold shiny bits instead? Damnit! I wish the Grey Knights had successors that I could paint (Exorcists don't count - I just got rid of them, and besides, the fluff says they are Codex-compliant) or some other tradition that would allow for variant color schemes.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Maybe a mission-specific paintjob? There was that one piece of fluff in the current 'dex about them anointing themselves in blood to avoid potential corruption. Maybe model them prepped in such a way to avoid potential corruption.

The Knights of Blood are borderline renegade, right? Maybe your Grey Knights are coated in the "Unguent of Obstinance" or somesuch, which leaves them a colour of your choice. It mysticaltechnobabble is to prevent them from seeing the KoB in any sympathetic light or something.

Edit: Or maybe they're present as a "Judge and Executioner" detachment, to judge the KoB for their actions, and potentially finish them off. Could paint them in the "Field Police" paintjob from this Rogue Trader page. (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wT_dsoa_R8s/TSuJd1F2w4I/AAAAAAAAAhY/362tScrfS3Y/s1600/rainbow%2Bwarriors.png)

[DarkLink]

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/020/3/5/grey_knight_inquisitor_front_warhammer_40000_by_sp ike1202-d4mzus5.jpg

http://www.google.com/imgres?safe=off&sa=X&rlz=1C1LENN_enUS484US484&espvd=210&es_sm=122&biw=1366&bih=653&tbm=isch&tbnid=LZ_f1p9vh6jrjM%3A&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fdarklostsoul86.deviantart.c om%2Fart%2FGrey-Knights-Dreadnought-vs-Tyranids-305352230&docid=6rTLdRtFoLWbMM&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Ffc01.deviantart.net%2Ffs71%2Ff %2F2012%2F151%2F7%2Fe%2Fgrey_knights_dreadnought_v s_tyranids_by_darklostsoul86-d51srae.jpg&w=651&h=634&ei=7z38UtGBKpDnoAS2wIKADw&zoom=1&ved=0CL0BEIQcMBk&iact=rc&dur=259&page=2&start=13&ndsp=26

http://www.google.com/imgres?safe=off&sa=X&rlz=1C1LENN_enUS484US484&espvd=210&es_sm=122&biw=1366&bih=653&tbm=isch&tbnid=OpfxcLnR0I-juM%3A&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dakkadakka.com%2Fgaller y%2F201842-.html%3Fm%3D2&docid=yzTWis9f0YYCZM&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.dakkadakka.com%2Fgaller y%2F2011%2F3%2F26%2F201842-Daemonhunters%2C%252520Grey%2C%252520Grey%252520Kn ights%2C%252520Omega%2C%252520Warhammer%25252040%2 C000.jpg&w=715&h=785&ei=7z38UtGBKpDnoAS2wIKADw&zoom=1&ved=0CM8BEIQcMB8&iact=rc&dur=279&page=2&start=13&ndsp=26


https://plus.google.com/photos/107907279539770901529/albums/5978962817252256161/5978964135329757026?banner=pwa&authkey=CLLPlITmo_HpXg&pid=5978964135329757026&oid=107907279539770901529

https://plus.google.com/photos/107907279539770901529/albums/5978962817252256161/5978964148031133410?banner=pwa&authkey=CLLPlITmo_HpXg&pid=5978964148031133410&oid=107907279539770901529

The last two examples are my Paladins and Draigo, btw. Not quite fully painted, but close enough.

[ElectricPaladin]

Yeah... it looks to me that putting the "grey" in "Grey Knights" can work pretty well.

So, you'd recommend dispensing with the the incinerator entirely? Do you see any point in having a hammer squad and a halberd squad if they're both going to have psycannons, or would you recommend just skewing towards high Strength weaponry and going with psycannons and hammers all around?

[ElectricPaladin]

Anyway - DarkLink, you'd suggest something more like:

HQ
• Ordo Malleus Inquisitor w/Terminator Armor, Psycannon - Psyker Upgrade (Divination)

Elites
• Retinue w/3 Acolytes (Flak Armor and Plasma Guns), 2 Crusaders, 2 Death Cult Assassins, Jokaero Weaponsmith
° Inquisitorial Chimera w/Heavy Bolters, Psybolt Ammo

Troops
• 5 Terminators w/Hammers, 1 Psycannon, 1 Brotherhood Banner
• 5 Terminators w/Hammers, 1 Psycannon, 1 Brotherhood Banner

Allied HQ
• Canoness w/Blade of Admonition, Rosarius

Allied Troops
• 9 Battle Sisters w/Vet, 2 Flamers, Simulacrum Imperialis
° Rhino w/Dozer Blade
• 10 Battle Sisters w/Vet, 2 Flamers, Simulacrum Imperialis
° Rhino w/Dozer Blade

Allied Heavy Support
• Exorcist w/Dozer Blade

I've got some long range, high Strength firepower. I've scared up the points for a second psycannon, and I've done it by losing the Dominions and putting my canoness in a battle sister squad, where she'll probably spend the whole game just hanging out (but it'll be fun if that squad gets charged).

[DarkLink]

Yeah, that looks pretty good. I'd mix hammers and halberds, probably 50/50 within each squad.

[Deadlift]

What does a Draigo list look like nowadays. Pure paladins or a few Terminators as well now ?

[ElectricPaladin]

Interesting... I assume that you'd recommend putting a halberd on the justicar and one grunt in each squad, and the hammers on two grunts in each squad, so that they can be Initiative 6 (and Strength 4 AP 3) in challenges?

By the way, how would you feel about putting the psycannon and the brotherhood banner on the same dude? I mean, that way I have the one dude that I know I'm going to want to let die second-to-last (right before the justicar) and I don't need to worry about deciding whether to let the psycannon or the banner go first as the squad starts taking casualties. Thoughts?

[Aegwymourn]

What does a Draigo list look like nowadays. Pure paladins or a few Terminators as well now ?

This is the Draigo list I've been toying with.

Draigo
O.M. Inq. - TDA, Psycannon, Mastery 1(prescience)

10 Paladins - the works
solodin
solodin

Psyfileman dread
Psyfileman dread
Dreadknight - Heavy Inc., Personal Teleportor

comes to 1750 on the dot I believe.

[Aegwymourn]

Interesting... I assume that you'd recommend putting a halberd on the justicar and one grunt in each squad, and the hammers on two grunts in each squad, so that they can be Initiative 6 (and Strength 4 AP 3) in challenges?

By the way, how would you feel about putting the psycannon and the brotherhood banner on the same dude? I mean, that way I have the one dude that I know I'm going to want to let die second-to-last (right before the justicar) and I don't need to worry about deciding whether to let the psycannon or the banner go first as the squad starts taking casualties. Thoughts?

Depends on your meta which you might need more for the justicar. A lot of that comes down to personal preference.

I'm against making one model that important in a squad. If your opponent has any way to snipe (barrage/precision) then you made his job half as hard. Also remember that if your justicar is dead and you perils a single random dude takes it. Would rather lose one than both.

[ElectricPaladin]

Also, I'm really surprised at the suggestion that squads mix weapons. The prevailing wisdom in 40k seems to be that a squad should be kitted out exclusively for it's primary purpose: combat, shooting, anti-infantry, anti-armor. The idea of giving a squad some halberds to strike at high I and also some hammers to strike hard is pretty weird for me. We don't usually mix clawminators and hammernators in the Blood Angels codex! Can anyone address this point?

[Aegwymourn]

Also, I'm really surprised at the suggestion that squads mix weapons. The prevailing wisdom in 40k seems to be that a squad should be kitted out exclusively for it's primary purpose: combat, shooting, anti-infantry, anti-armor. The idea of giving a squad some halberds to strike at high I and also some hammers to strike hard is pretty weird for me. We don't usually mix clawminators and hammernators in the Blood Angels codex! Can anyone address this point?

You tend to have so few models that multi-tasking is required, is the short answer.

In a normal list, lets say IG for funzies, you can make each squad/detachment have a particular mission. So I want something that will be: mobile, scoring and good against tanks. I'll take two squads of vets with 3x melta each, and put them in chimeras. For both of those units you're probably looking an equivalent point cost to a single GK terminator squad with a special weapon. You simply cannot get enough bodies (unless you play Coteaz + henchmen squads) to cover every base like other armies.

This isn't to say GK cannot be masters of a particular realm of combat, but they tend to do better when they can react better to multiple different situations with a single load out. They also tend to be above average in so many aspects that doing so isn't difficult with the proper load out. Having storm bolters base and force weapons on every dude leaves a lot of how the battle is played up to you. Most people won't want to stand there and take the shooting beating (as long as they are not super durable like jetcouncil, or super mobile to out range you), nor will they want to charge you and get smacked with all those force weapons that are ap3.

Also my last sentence touched on the final point. Every melee weapon in the GK list doesn't break the ap3 barrier except for hammers. If you get stuck on something with a 2+ save that hammer might be the swing that gets you out of that combat or kills them.

[Katharon]

I'm currently building a list around Coteaz and Inquisition Warbands. I'll let you know how it goes.

[jonsgot]

Keep us posted. I think grey knights are one of the most fun armies to play with/against. They have that whole a squad of space marines can end a war, thing going. I played a game against them at the weekend and out numbered them with my nids about 4 to 1. I still lost:)

[ElectricPaladin]

I've decided that this is pretty much going to happen. Resisting it is going to be challenging when, given what I'm already buying for the Inquisition War campaign, $100 for two boxes of terminators is all I need.