So how long to we need to wait before we can make a call on the nid dex?

[daboarder]

LVO results are out.


Standings are in and it was not good for the bugs.

Cooper had tne best ranking at 24th. 4W-1L.

The big problem I have is with his draw. He beat 2 other Nid players for two of his wins, so against non-Tyranid armies he was 2W-1L. He did not draw any Eldar or Tau armies to play against. His one loss was to Goatboy's demons. That was pretty much a dream draw for most Nid players.

Not saying he is not a great player, but if he had a draw like that and only broke the top 25 then we are going to have some issues.

Second best was 34th with a 5th ed codex.

Blackmoor came in 3rd at 39th with 3W-1L-1D. He drew against a Mechdar army (wave serpents/wraithknights) and lost to DE Jetseers. He had a rough draw. probably the best showing Nids could do against top tier lists.

That is pitiful, I don't think any codex has done that badly since the last nid one.

and given how we've been seeing them play in funnzies games (the last thread springs to mind) I think this book is probably in some serious trouble.

A friend of mine said it best,
Why play nids in a tournament if you have the option of any other book, there is nothing in that codex that scares me across the table

[iNcontroL]

Actually they currently climbed to the top 5 of torrent of fire's ranking :) Largely in part to the small sample pool and that in tourneys it's mostly excellent players playing them but it is still something!

Goatboy's army btw is NOT a dream match for Tyranids. Normally Daemons are.. I agree with that but he had 60 daemonnettes and 2 greater daemons (all slaanesh). It was a nasty list. He also deep striked 2 soul grinders as poor mans heldrakes tearing up the backfield. He didn't have much in the way of skyfire but no Tyranid infantry is standing up against 60 daemonnettes and the soul grinders are tough unless you have some key warpblast shots or MC assault which by turn 2/3 might just be your tervigon with the rest of the army up the field.

Nobody in their right mind would proclaim this codex a huge success or really good.. I don't think it's the worst codex though. I think sadly Tyranids are once again a mid tier army with the potential to surprise people if the army is in good hands.

I took 31st btw with the old nids there ;) One last run! Now on to the new nids...

[daboarder]

Actually they currently climbed to the top 5 of torrent of fire's ranking :) Largely in part to the small sample pool and that in tourneys it's mostly excellent players playing them but it is still something!

Goatboy's army btw is NOT a dream match for Tyranids. Normally Daemons are.. I agree with that but he had 60 daemonnettes and 2 greater daemons (all slaanesh). It was a nasty list. He also deep striked 2 soul grinders as poor mans heldrakes tearing up the backfield. He didn't have much in the way of skyfire but no Tyranid infantry is standing up against 60 daemonnettes and the soul grinders are tough unless you have some key warpblast shots or MC assault which by turn 2/3 might just be your tervigon with the rest of the army up the field.

Nobody in their right mind would proclaim this codex a huge success or really good.. I don't think it's the worst codex though. I think sadly Tyranids are once again a mid tier army with the potential to surprise people if the army is in good hands.

I took 31st btw with the old nids there ;) One last run! Now on to the new nids...

I'll pay that about GB slaanesh. To be fair though, the fact they can fit that many slaaneshi daemons in a list....I mean if you even tried to get near those numbers with stealers......you'd cripple yourself.

As to the codex, I think it may, actually be the worst book they have ever released, I actually can't think of a book that was so bland boring and boring compared to the previous one, when the previous one was already that bland and boring. I mean no its not unplayable but it really has to be in the running for the worst book ever I think.....I mean whats its competition? the 5th ed nid codex? the 4th ed CSM or DA ones? (that is a serious question by the way, what books do people think are worse than the 5th and 6th nid ones?)

[Tyrendian]

(that is a serious question by the way, what books do people think are worse than the 5th and 6th nid ones?)

the old Necron one maybe? where you couldn´t play small games because your minimum army (1HQ 2 Troops) was 500pts already? which didn´t really have many fun/funky units in it, let alone scary combos? and where your army was prone to just say "bye" when you lost a couple of dudes? or maybe I´m just spoiled by the newer stuff... and yeah even that was not as bad as the new Nid book imo

[daboarder]

true the cron book was bland, but its was also a bit of a powerhouse. Glancing raiders to death with a single shot never got old. (6 to pen, 6 on the damage chart POP!) Not to mention the literally unkillable monolith

[Dave Mcturk]

newnidz is very situational, and success at open event will be largely determined by the rock paper scissors spock...

but our home games... where we play alternate scenery deployment and are normally terrain heavy by nidz player choice makes them much more effective...

still think the 50pt 2 st8 shot ignore cover beasties are great value and a real threat to most opponents...

of course nidz will always hate short edge games...

which is where i think TO and BRB have got it wrong ! .... surely the attacking / counter attacking player {in strategic terms} should have the choice of deployment ? ... i mean TAU just love short edge !

[daboarder]

newnidz is very situational, and success at open event will be largely determined by the rock paper scissors spock...

but our home games... where we play alternate scenery deployment and are normally terrain heavy by nidz player choice makes them much more effective...

still think the 50pt 2 st8 shot ignore cover beasties are great value and a real threat to most opponents...

of course nidz will always hate short edge games...

which is where i think TO and BRB have got it wrong ! .... surely the attacking / counter attacking player {in strategic terms} should have the choice of deployment ? ... i mean TAU just love short edge !

Um dave. Deployment is randomly determined.(excepting tournament where its usually an even distribution for each game).

And the nids dont have any S8 ignores cover outside the crone(whic is a vector strike at 24 and fragile).. .and certainly not for 50pts

[SaveModifier]

Um dave. Deployment is randomly determined.(excepting tournament where its usually an even distribution for each game).

And the nids dont have any S8 ignores cover outside the crone(whic is a vector strike at 24 and fragile).. .and certainly not for 50pts

No its not, terrain is done so that it looks cool, random is the alternative deployment.

[Crevab]

Hive Guard Impaler Cannon gained complete Ignores Cover, rather than the old "ignores cover unless you're in it"
But they did go up to 55 pts.
...and down to BS3

[Pyredragon]

Um dave. Deployment is randomly determined.(excepting tournament where its usually an even distribution for each game).

And the nids dont have any S8 ignores cover outside the crone(whic is a vector strike at 24 and fragile).. .and certainly not for 50pts

He's talking about the Impaler Cannon there Daboarder.

As for the codex, I honestly have been thoroughly disappointed. I won't get into all the reasons why, just sum it up with the fact it's a lazy transition. But ultimately it boils down to the fact I hate being shoe-horned into playing any of my armies in only one way.

I do not want to have to follow a checklist to be competitive. Flyrant with twinlinked brainleech x2? Check, Termagants x30 with Tervigon? check, Venomthropes x3, check, etc ad nauseam, every, freaking, game.

My best friend has actually found a good thread on Warseer about 'fixing' the nid codex. There's some funstuff in it and since it's chiefly only me and him who play we're going to hash it out and fix it for ourselves. I don't get to go to tournaments and he suggested this so we won't be stepping on anyone's toes.

If you guys are interested I'll pm you the link and after we do some testing post some results.

[SaveModifier]

You now have to play nids in the way nids are supposed to act, thats a good thing. Nids are nids, play something else if you want a different play style. Think of new things rather than being stuck in the way of playing you've had for the last 4 years.

[Bork]

You now have to play nids in the way nids are supposed to act, thats a good thing. Nids are nids, play something else if you want a different play style. Think of new things rather than being stuck in the way of playing you've had for the last 4 years.

using the fluff to justify the incredibly harsh and poorly thought out mechanic that is synapse and IB is redundant. the game doesn't run on fluff otherwise a tactical squad would be capable of wiping out armies by themselves. no other army in the game has such a crippling, and worst of all restricting ruleset to adhere to. i understand fluff should be a factor but in this case they've taken it too far. the rules as they are now a pretty ridiculous when you consider the fluff. an army of billions would not require a hive tyrant or tervigon or whatever to be interplaced every 30 feet or so would it. i get what they tried to do, i do, it's just not done well. without that mechanic the codex would be a great deal more viable.

i'd like to hear some of the new ways you can play nids with this codex, because there aren't any i can see. in fact there's one less way to play them than before since they removed the spore pod. oh yeah, how fluffy, to remove the single most important piece of the tyranid arsenal when assaulting a planet. how did all those nids get down on the battlefield for you to play against i wonder. :rolleyes:

at best it's mediocre level with no hope for serious competitive play IMO. im destroying the new codex with fun/fluffy CSM lists without seeing a challenge and using my eldar i just feel like im shooting fish in a barrel. i struggle to enjoy games vs them because each one plays out the same. big blob rushes forward looking scary sitting under venomthrope cover, tervigons poop gants out in the backfield, flyers or burrowers attempt to distract me....yawn.

im not saying its impossible to do well with them, good players will always make something out of nothing but for me the book is a write off. it's boring to play with and against. it's got a linear predictable playstyle and severely punishes you in ways no other army has to deal with.

[Sly]

I actually can't think of a book that was so bland boring and boring compared to the previous oneI mean whats its competition? the 5th ed nid codex? the 4th ed CSM or DA ones?

4th ed CSM is still, IMO, the runaway winner for "biggest blandification". SO many units from the prior Codex that could no longer be fielded.

As for Nids, I'll have to see Flying Circus fall down (heh) repeatedly before I give up on the Codex. I keep seeing some lists show as dangerous (Jetseer, Screamerstar), and I don't see what the lists bring in order to handle FMCs. And FMCs that can make casting Psychic powers seem like an even worse matchup. Granted, Wave Serpent spam is a problem for Nids, but a lot of the other lists that people have trouble with seem like they should have problems with Nids.

[jonsgot]

I would say we give it the rest of February and then call it a dog, and then expect a whole string of blogs explaining why it's not a dog, even though it smells bad and barks at the postman. Not sure why synapse range is so short, I can't find that in the fluff. Maybe it has been written to follow the fluff and loose. I haven't found a book where the Nids win yet.

Sorry I haven't ever bothered to buy it. So I should keep my mouth shut!

[This Dave]

I do not want to have to follow a checklist to be competitive. Flyrant with twinlinked brainleech x2? Check, Termagants x30 with Tervigon? check, Venomthropes x3, check, etc ad nauseam, every, freaking, game.

I can't speak to the book being boring but this caught my eye. It seems like most "competitive" armies for tournaments are the exact same list. The LVO undefeated list was the usual Jetseer with Baron Smelldar list I've seen a thousand times. Does that make Eldar boring as well since apparently the only way to play them is this way or allied with Tau?

I'm not trying to slam you and if you don't like the codex I can respect that. I'm just confused why some codices seem to get a pass when there seem to be only certain lists to be comparative with while this one gets slammed because "there is only one way to play it."

[Al Shut]

You will have to wait until there's a faq before you make a call.

So probably forever.

[Eldar_Atog]

The LVO undefeated list was the usual Jetseer with Baron Smelldar list I've seen a thousand times. Does that make Eldar boring as well since apparently the only way to play them is this way or allied with Tau?



I can't speak about the touranment setting but I love the variety that the Eldar codex gives in a more friendly setting. I can build a list using the fluff from almost all of the major craftworlds and feel like I will have a fun game. The only craftworld that isn't quite as well off is Beil-Tan. Since half of the Aspect warriors are close combat, it's a little harder to field a well balanced fluffy list. Low toughness close combat specialists are just painful to field.

I feel bad for Tyranid players that feel like they can only field one list. It just sucks the fun out of playing when you know your strategy and list for every game you will be playing for the next 5 years. A new codex should not feel like that. You should not hit that point till the end of the life cycle for that book :(

[John Bower]

I for one would like to actually see the losing lists for nids. the winner was a spammy cheesy Gaydar list of the usual jetseer Waveserpent spam. The jetseers should be easy enough to shut down with a decent build of nids. SiTW is our key there, and did they use terrain to advantage? Did they use Venomthropes? Did they put bodies on the table? All these things have to be taken into account. Nids will not win tournaments, now will anyone but Eldar WaveSpampent lists these days. Or of course Tau Ripspam or a combination of both. I'm guessing there were a few Ripspam lists in there, so that speaks volumes for the Wavespam list. It's not the tyranid codex that needs a re-write, it's the rest. The nid codex is as it should be, play it right to the fluff. All the others have Death Star units that are just spammed to crap and not played well. That my friends is boring; not our codex, which I have to say I have enjoyed every game I've played so far with. And as for IB, if you're eating your own face off, sorry boys and girls you ain't doing it right. You shouldn't be eating yourselves. My crons managed to decimate my nid synapse, but not one single nid from my list ate another nid or itself, the only attacks on my nids from nids came from the bugger using mindshackles on my warriors.

[jonsgot]

For me the codex fails not because Nids function as a cheep hoard army again, that was the problem with the old codex in 5th Ed. You were forced to try and come up with all sorts of weird builds to find something remotely competitive. Again I haven't used the new codex but it can't be as bad as the old one. Make no mistake I'm not saying the Nid codex is easy to win games with but neither is Eldar
I think the failure of this tyranid codex is a mix of the online communities wish listing and the expectations GW had set with the Tau and Eldar Releases. We (not I) had been talking up plastic Bio Titans, big bugs, transport bugs, huge plastic flyers, Norn Queens, the return of eternal warrior and warp fields for Hive Tyrants.
What we got was a new type of expensive Carifex, a plastic harpy with some new guns and some updates to old kits that had very little wrong with them other than being resin.
The nid codex does not have a truly exciting model in the release. I feel like selling off my army at the moment and buying forge world titans with the proceeds.
For me the old Nids didn't work until they released the Flying Hive Tyrant and Tervigon kit. I'm hoping GW have something else in the pipe line. I'm not investing in this release as it stands.

[daboarder]

Hive Guard Impaler Cannon gained complete Ignores Cover, rather than the old "ignores cover unless you're in it"
But they did go up to 55 pts.
...and down to BS3

Oops oh yeah.

As to nid lists. The ones that actually did something were all flyranst crones single tervigon (gants) and maxed HS

[daboarder]

You now have to play nids in the way nids are supposed to act, thats a good thing. Nids are nids, play something else if you want a different play style. Think of new things rather than being stuck in the way of playing you've had for the last 4 years.

You need to read more fluff.....

Nids eating themselves whe the synapse dies? Thats not been a thing before.

Hyper mutability is though.....but .......

And please stop accusing everyone of being hung up on the old book.

[DarkLink]

In better news, though, Tau did very poorly at the tournament as well, likely due to the massive amounts of LOS blocking terrain (which, btw, would be a factor greatly in the nids favor in most games).

[Cap'nSmurfs]

One of the best things I've heard about the LVO guys is that they're properly aware of the necessity of a good quantity and variety of terrain, including LOS blocking stuff. The game doesn't work properly without proper terrain~

[DarkLink]

In fact, if there was a problem with their terrain, it was that there was almost too much. Certain armies, like the DE Beastpack, could run from one LOS blocking Ruin to the next with impunity. Eldar Jetbikes could do the same, and they were effectively impossible to kill until they jumped onto an objective T5-7. So it wasn't perfect, but it was vastly better than any other tournament I've ever been to.

[jifel]

According to Torrent of Fire, the top Primary armies by win percent are...

1.Eldar (62.96%)
2.Tau Empire (61.28%)
3.Chaos Daemons (58.53%)
4.Necrons (55.32%)
5.Tyranids 6e (54.76%)

Given that this was an untested book means two things to me: One, opponents weren't prepared, two, no one has really deciphered the book. Some people will develop "the list" for Nids, and opponents will adjust for it, but right now they did just fine.

[SaveModifier]

You need to read more fluff.....

Nids eating themselves whe the synapse dies? Thats not been a thing before.

Hyper mutability is though.....but .......

And please stop accusing everyone of being hung up on the old book.

The "eating themselves" is really rare, its not like all gants are sitting there chewing on themselves for the full game, the odds of it happening aren't that significant at all. And fluff-wise, they have no real conciousness, thats in the fluff, they're dumb as anything and will attack any living being they see to assimilate bio-matter for the Hive Mind unless they're within synapse, so yeah, it fits that, if the hive mind is careless enough to let them fall out of synapse range, then they're going to attack whatever they see, which might be another gant.

You are getting hung up on the old book, the internet had figured out the win button for nids, they'd worked out the optimum army to take and so net-list people used that in net-list competitive games, no one has figured out the auto-includes for this book, possibly because it isn't that simple and needs more skill as a player to do well with, and so they've declared that its a useless book, its not, there are a lot of interesting, fluff and quite competitive things you can do with it.

[daboarder]

Them eating themselves is half the time a feed unit is out of synapse and fails IB..not rare Oh and you appraisal of nid 'intelligence" contradicts the background you think they supposedly currently represent. (seriously how was the anphelion project a thing if your correct)

And as for my attitude on the old book. Well go read my tactics thread because your wrong there too

edit: elaborating,

This is of course the puroose of this thread, At what point will you and those who share your opinion be satisfied in the communities appraisal of the book.

We are always told, wait for the book, play the book, play the book more, the book isn't bad if you jump through hoops X,Y,Z.

How long do we have to wait? For the 5th ed book we had to wait for a whole new edition change that gave us a boost before that portion of the community would admit that the 5th ed book had been a pie of crap. Then all those boosts get taken away and it serves us right.

So the question is as posted, WHEN, if ever will people be satisfied with the community appraisal of this book.

Can you think of a worse set of books save modifier?

[nidzy]

The "eating themselves" is really rare, its not like all gants are sitting there chewing on themselves for the full game, the odds of it happening aren't that significant at all. And fluff-wise, they have no real conciousness, thats in the fluff, they're dumb as anything and will attack any living being they see to assimilate bio-matter for the Hive Mind unless they're within synapse, so yeah, it fits that, if the hive mind is careless enough to let them fall out of synapse range, then they're going to attack whatever they see, which might be another gant.

You are getting hung up on the old book, the internet had figured out the win button for nids, they'd worked out the optimum army to take and so net-list people used that in net-list competitive games, no one has figured out the auto-includes for this book, possibly because it isn't that simple and needs more skill as a player to do well with, and so they've declared that its a useless book, its not, there are a lot of interesting, fluff and quite competitive things you can do with it.

What are some of the interesting and competitive things you have noticed thus far? So far I haven't heard anybody say WHY they think the nid book is anything other than a sub standard piece of work.

[AwesomeWolf]

The chance for Ld6 Feed bugs (e.g. Hormagaunts, Raveners) to eat themselves is 29%.

Simply put: the book would be more flexible, stronger, and all around more fun if Synapse and IB were simply deleted. They are a huge disadvantage, without the concomitant reduction in points.

[daboarder]

Synapse is fine, its no different to ATSKNF, Mob rules, Daemonic morale. The problem isn't that they exist its that the current IB is crippling in comparison to the minor buff that is synapse. The opponent should want to remove synapse because it BUFFS the tyranids, nto because by removing it they are crippled.

[Aknon]

Now I haven't used the nid codex in a tournament setting, but I've played around with it in a few pick up games and I'm GMing a campaign with two nid players.

And surprisingly Its doing pretty well...

So far in the campaign its had two wins (against Guard and GK) and one loss to necrons. (In comparison the eldar have lost every game except a kill-team one, and the tau have won only a single battle after both have had at least two, if not more games). In all the nids games they have been used by absolute beginners, against seasoned players, which is pretty good going! As far as faction performance is concerned, the nids are doing the best by far!

With my personal use I've taken them up against a 3 riptide list, marines and chaos. I'll admit they didn't have fun against bolters, but still did pretty well and won. Against the 3 riptides they did pretty well. We got a rule about building collapse wrong, that meant my stealers were left eating gunline in the open, but if it weren't for that I would have had a relatively easy victory against it (riptides don't like poisoned genestealers at all). One of the best parts in the codex is the horror psychic power, It has been a massive boon to any unit that has it, and the Broodlord has been a dominant force in every game I've seen the nids play since the codex dropped.

I know this is anecdotal but I really don't think the sky is falling. Once again to use nids people need to use the army dramatically different to how they did with the previous codex. Something I've always found with nid releases is that each codex is a different army, that plays differently. With every other codex release you can use a very similar list to the codex before, add a couple more models to make up for points reduction, and still do well. Nids needs a change in mindset every codex. Our weapon profiles change every codex, so thats a reason to begin with (Imagine if the lascannon changed stats as often as the venom cannon, just saying)

The main issue I see with this release is that the infiltration dataslate stuff should have been rules in the main codex. Genestealers able to come out of ruins/buildings reliably from reserve should have been in there from the start, and lictors hopping out of trees should have been as well, it fits the fluff and would have given the units a role they lack otherwise.

[Anggul]

Synapse is fine, its no different to ATSKNF, Mob rules, Daemonic morale. The problem isn't that they exist its that the current IB is crippling in comparison to the minor buff that is synapse. The opponent should want to remove synapse because it BUFFS the tyranids, nto because by removing it they are crippled.

This is the main point I think. Other armies get beneficial special rules like Chapter Tactics, Battle Focus, Supporting Fire, Reanimation Protocols, Mob Rule, Daemonic and the like. These are either paid for or have equal upsides and downsides. Synapse is far more harmful than helpful now. The previous book had it fine. You lost a bit of control, but you had time to reassert control before everything went belly-up. The trade-off was that everything was Fearless. Sometimes it was even better to let them run rampant but reign them in at the right moment, which was interesting as it opened up new options. For some reason they felt the need to change this and make it worse in every way for the Tyranids. It was fine and balanced before, it didn't need changing and it shouldn't have been done.

[Pyredragon]

I can understand that Synapse should be necessary, I'm not of the opinion it should be removed completely as I like the fluffy bit about the big ones needing to get order. I am in agreement though that it is much too harsh. Would it have killed them to make it a 1, eat yourself 2-5, Not so bad 6, bonus time?

To answer your question by the way 'The Dave' I think any spammy netlist is boring. The undefeated winner of the LVO? I have no idea how he finds that list fun. Especially not whenever I look through the Eldar codex and think of all the awesome options available to them.

I would rather open ANY codex and go, "What do I want to field tonight." vs "What do I have to field..."

[AwesomeWolf]

As noted, Synpase/IB should be a net benefit - As it stands, the Fearless granted by Synapse pales in comparison to the disadvantages of not being in synapse. It needs to give bonuses more than just "Your army doesn't poop on itself".

There's also minor details like junk units are still junk, the Trygon tunnel rule is still a crime against trees and ink, and nerfs to CC in an edition already slanted against CC.

[daboarder]

the Trygon tunnel rule is still a crime against trees and ink.

Just a heads up, I'm stealing this when I get to teh trygon section of my tactics.

[Hellfire]

Synapse is fine, its no different to ATSKNF, Mob rules, Daemonic morale. The problem isn't that they exist its that the current IB is crippling in comparison to the minor buff that is synapse. The opponent should want to remove synapse because it BUFFS the tyranids, nto because by removing it they are crippled.

This.

[AwesomeWolf]

Just a heads up, I'm stealing this when I get to teh trygon section of my tactics.

Feel free! It's almost offensive how much space it takes up when it does so little. Two-thirds of units that could use the tunnel never even get the chance because they'll be arriving on turn 2 - and the other one-third is boned if the Trygon doesn't come on turn 2. And the only reserve manipulation in the book makes it worse, as it makes 8/9ths of the reserves come on turn 2!

[DarkLink]

According to Torrent of Fire, the top Primary armies by win percent are...

1.Eldar (62.96%)
2.Tau Empire (61.28%)
3.Chaos Daemons (58.53%)
4.Necrons (55.32%)
5.Tyranids 6e (54.76%)

Given that this was an untested book means two things to me: One, opponents weren't prepared, two, no one has really deciphered the book. Some people will develop "the list" for Nids, and opponents will adjust for it, but right now they did just fine.

Strength of schedule is the important part not mentioned here. Eldar were on the top tables. To get that high up, many Eldar players had likely the most difficult opponents, and still beat everyone. Tau didn't, which means they likely lost their more difficult games but won the easy ones, so they did well but not well enough to get up there. Same thing with nids, but they didn't win as frequently despite weaker opponents.

Now, of course, it would take some fancy analysis to determine this all for certain. You would have to go and look at the numbers very carefully. It's just worth noting that this can be more complex than it appears on the surface.

I'll also note that I personally took GK with allied Eldar (I won best GK player) and actually lost my first game to Tyranids. I faced 2 Flying Tyrants, 3 Crones, and 3 Mawlocks. Over the course of the game, my opponent only failed 2 Grounding Checks out of about 20, and kept the Mawlocks hidden away in the far corners of the board. Turn 5, he dropped the only remaining FMC, a Crone, and all 3 Mawlocks onto objectives to contest, and the game ended. Since he had second turn, contested all the objectives except the one he held, and then the game ended, he won. Had the game gone on, I would have effectively tabled him turn 6 by killing all 3 Mawlocks, the Crone, and most of his remaining troops. He won by having basically everything go his way, and got lucky the game ended T5. Not that he was a bad player by any means, he made all the right moves, but there's enough luck in 40k that you can win bad matchups, and it seems to me like a lot of Tyranid wins come by gambling for a T5 contest. Of the nid wins I've seen, most of them occurred like this, where they won despite getting the crap kicked out of them. Rarely do they beat up the other guy, in my experience.

[Dalleron]

To me, it seems like you're all ready to call it DOA right now.

Has it occured to anyone that you're using a product not designed for a competitive environment in a competitive environment. I don't how many times its been said for this edition, and probably last ed too.

[daboarder]

sorry dalleron, that statement is contradictory to GW's stance that they are both model manufacturers AND games designers.

[Sly]

The chance for Ld6 Feed bugs (e.g. Hormagaunts, Raveners) to eat themselves is 29%.

Simply put: the book would be more flexible, stronger, and all around more fun if Synapse and IB were simply deleted. They are a huge disadvantage, without the concomitant reduction in points.

Huh. Nids have the ability to have a horde of Fearless models that cost 4 pts apiece, or 5 pts with increased movement rates. Having Synapse is a great benefit, and I don't think that IB is nearly enough of a handicap to make it an overall wash, much less a negative.

Not that I think it's a bad idea, the overall special rules for a Codex SHOULD be a net benefit. But I think that the crying over IB really has obscured how strong Fearless is in general, and even more so when applied to cheap horde units. CSM Zombie lists are still dangerous, and they're 4pts with S&P and no shooting (though they do have FNP). Fearless Hormies and Gaunts are dangerous things, and have a lot better threat range than the Zombies.

[daboarder]

ths thing is sly, you don't have to kill that horde.

You just need to kill the 4-5 units controlling it.

[FTGT]

According to Torrent of Fire, the top Primary armies by win percent are...

1.Eldar (62.96%)
2.Tau Empire (61.28%)
3.Chaos Daemons (58.53%)
4.Necrons (55.32%)
5.Tyranids 6e (54.76%)

Given that this was an untested book means two things to me: One, opponents weren't prepared, two, no one has really deciphered the book. Some people will develop "the list" for Nids, and opponents will adjust for it, but right now they did just fine.

That's the overall numbers, so all tournaments that have used ToF. Interestingly, Space Marines didn't get the same differentiation as nids did between new and old. Anyway, for LVO only, the rankings are different:

1. Tau Empire (60.82%)
2. Eldar (60.66%)
3. Tyranids (60%) - not statistically significant, only 2 players used old nids
4. Necrons (56.52%)
5. 6e Tyranids (54.67%)
6. Daemons (51.19%)
7. IG (50%)

All other forces were under 50% win rates, including Space Marines, who were the most represented at LVO. Now, discounting old nids, that leaves new nids in 4th in overall performance. I believe 9 players used new nids, and one of them lost all 5 games, while one of the top ranked players going into day 2 quit after round 4. Also, while Allan was 39th by points, his only loss was to eventual Champion Alex Fennel 7-4.

So, you can be negative if you want, but in LVO, Tyranids were the top 6th edition codex behind the arguably broken Eldar and Tau. And yet, Tau didn't make the top 8, even as the ever present ally.

Statistically, there's a lot more to be seen, how the book does in future events. But I believe Nids will stay on the top side of the pack for a good while. Will they become the top table hog that is Eldar at the moment? Probably not, but I think they are capable of making top 8s and runs for overall at big events like LVO going forward.

[DarkLink]

As I said, there are a lot more important things to consider than overall win percentages. Nids can't compete with top books, but seem to be good at beating weak players and armies. Incidentally, their 4-1 finisher was relatively low in the group of players who went 4-1, meaning he got very few tiebreaker Battle Points. So he squeaked out 4 wins, but didn't dominate his opponents.


To me, it seems like you're all ready to call it DOA right now.

Has it occured to anyone that you're using a product not designed for a competitive environment in a competitive environment. I don't how many times its been said for this edition, and probably last ed too.

That's an excuse, not a reason. GW produces a game. Virtually everyone who owns 40k does it to play it in some fashion. They might have gotten by with mediocre rules in the past, but they are losing market share to other competitors who realize how important quality rules are.

[Gleipnir]

Feel free! It's almost offensive how much space it takes up when it does so little. Two-thirds of units that could use the tunnel never even get the chance because they'll be arriving on turn 2 - and the other one-third is boned if the Trygon doesn't come on turn 2. And the only reserve manipulation in the book makes it worse, as it makes 8/9ths of the reserves come on turn 2!

Simple fix for this woulda been to permit the Trygon to arrive Turn 1 or Turn 2 in the same manner Deathwing do, not terribly overpowered for the price of a Trygon.

Not ready to write off Tyranids in their entirety because the next two dataslate releases may permit for things like this and other gimmicks to make it more effective.

But am in agreement that this is the poorest developed 6th edition codex to date, leaving the questions that had to be answered for the 5th edition codex unanswered back into the 6th edition book, and while biomorphs could have been a great opportunity to customize the swarm +1 toughness or armor for Monstrous Creatures anyone, at 4 options its was very underwhelming.

Not one to argue for Eternal Warrior or units able to assault out of reserve but in all 6th edition gave us the same fragile flyers, just more of them we could field and cheaper guants

[FTGT]

As I said, there are a lot more important things to consider than overall win percentages. Nids can't compete with top books, but seem to be good at beating weak players and armies.

Except that's not entirely true if you look at the breakdown. Nids were 6-1 against Space Marines, 3-2 vs. Daemons, and 1-1 vs. Tau. Admittedly they were 2-4-1 against Eldar, 1-3 against Necrons, and 1-2 vs. CSM. That said, they were 14-10-1 against 6th Edition books.

[daboarder]

and the highest nid placing was like 24th

the second highest 34th

[FTGT]

and the highest nid placing was like 24th

the second highest 34th

And the highest ranked nid player going into Day 2 Rage-quit and dropped to 77th because of it.

The Tyranids will not be an easy button fix to Eldar dominance. But I think they can hold their own, and will improve as the good Tyranid players have more than 4 weeks to get their bearings with the new book and list builds.

[daboarder]

And the highest ranked nid player going into Day 2 Rage-quit and dropped to 77th because of it.

The Tyranids will not be an easy button fix to Eldar dominance. But I think they can hold their own, and will improve as the good Tyranid players have more than 4 weeks to get their bearings with the new book and list builds.

really? got a reference? the tournament before LVO had the higher nid player drop out, but it was not because of a rage quit.

LVO as far as I'm aware had no such drop out and wound up with 24th as our best playing, making darklinks assessment pretty accurate.

[silashand]

So, you can be negative if you want, but in LVO, Tyranids were the top 6th edition codex behind the arguably broken Eldar and Tau. And yet, Tau didn't make the top 8, even as the ever present ally.

Another point to make is that 4 of the bug players finished in the top 25%. 4 more in the top 50% and only three finished in the bottom 50% (there were 11 bug players overall). IMO that's a pretty decent winning record considering they had to go up against broken as hell Taudar. JMO...

The other thing to consider is that of the top 25 armies, 7 were Eldar and 6 were Tau. The highest place Tyranid army was 12th (Geoff Robinson):

http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/tournament/Las-Vegas-Open/4/leaderboard

[DarkLink]

I knew a lot of the nids players, and there were some very good ones present. Also, there weren't many Taudar armies that I noticed, nor were there any Tau in the top spots.


And the highest ranked nid player going into Day 2 Rage-quit and dropped to 77th because of it.

We were in Vegas. There was specifically a scheduled pub-crawl social, beerhammer, etc. I very seriously doubt that it was a ragequit ;).



The Tyranids will not be an easy button fix to Eldar dominance. But I think they can hold their own, and will improve as the good Tyranid players have more than 4 weeks to get their bearings with the new book and list builds.

With the vast quantities of LOS blocking terrain, I think they're decent enough compared to the mid-tier books. And I think with LOS blocking terrain, some of the nastier armies, excluding Eldar, drop to high mid-tier. But Eldar benefit as much, if not more, from the LOS blocking terrain as anyone else, which only puts them even more solidly in the top spot.

[bigpig]

Another point to make is that 4 of the bug players finished in the top 25%. 4 more in the top 50% and only three finished in the bottom 50% (there were 11 bug players overall). IMO that's a pretty decent winning record considering they had to go up against broken as hell Taudar. JMO...

The other thing to consider is that of the top 25 armies, 7 were Eldar and 6 were Tau. The highest place Tyranid army was 12th (Geoff Robinson):

http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/tournament/Las-Vegas-Open/4/leaderboard

Geoff played 5th edition nids.

I went 3-2 with W-W-L-W-L. 3 wins vs grav spam space marines a loss to Taudar on a surprising open board and a squeaker at the end of a four turn game to a very good Deamon player. All of the nid players there were experienced and skilled nid players so that may be skewing the numbers quite a bit. No bandwagoners brining the numbers down at all

[DarkLink]

Right. I mean, Blackmoor was second best nids, right? He's won major tournaments before. That he did reasonably well isn't much of an argument that the army he took is good.

[FTGT]

We were in Vegas. There was specifically a scheduled pub-crawl social, beerhammer, etc. I very seriously doubt that it was a ragequit ;).

Likely true. I hope so anyway. Even if it wasn't a true ragequit, dropping after your first loss gives that impression when all I have to go on is ToF stats and he disappears in round 5.

[jonsgot]

Just thought. The last Nid codex was said to have been designed for 6th ed. Maybe this one is designed for 7th:)

[N.I.B.]

Just thought. The last Nid codex was said to have been designed for 6th ed. Maybe this one is designed for 7th:)
haha, yeah and don't forget SYNERGY! Synergy will save the Tyranids!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

No-one (repeat: no-one) has said the last Tyranid codex was written for 6th edition. It was one of the very first 5th Edition codices. This is crazy-talk. Necrons and Grey Knights, yes. Dark Eldar, maybe. Tyranids? No. No no no.

[John Bower]

The "eating themselves" is really rare, its not like all gants are sitting there chewing on themselves for the full game, the odds of it happening aren't that significant at all. And fluff-wise, they have no real conciousness, thats in the fluff, they're dumb as anything and will attack any living being they see to assimilate bio-matter for the Hive Mind unless they're within synapse, so yeah, it fits that, if the hive mind is careless enough to let them fall out of synapse range, then they're going to attack whatever they see, which might be another gant.

You are getting hung up on the old book, the internet had figured out the win button for nids, they'd worked out the optimum army to take and so net-list people used that in net-list competitive games, no one has figured out the auto-includes for this book, possibly because it isn't that simple and needs more skill as a player to do well with, and so they've declared that its a useless book, its not, there are a lot of interesting, fluff and quite competitive things you can do with it.

I have to agree, hasn't anyone read the Ultramarines books? Oh no, sorry forgot that you all hate on the ultras so much you'd rather use those books as bog roll. But in one of them they poisoned the main fleet hive mind, the nids on the planet below did exactly that, they turned on each other and ate themselves wholesale. Actually turned in on themselves once that synapse was removed. Because the bulk of nid organisms are mindless idiots, the only ones with half a brain to speak of are Genestealers due to operating in deep cover and synapse creatures, at the lowest Warriors up through the Zoanthropes etc. to the Tyrants. Take them away and fluff wise all nids will attack one another, GW could have included that in the dex did that occur to you? They didn't, they only made feeders do it, and even then not really that often, so far in all my games I've had 1 unit fail it's IB test and that was a Tyrannofex, which worked to my advantage because he promptly attacked a Monolith getting a hull point off it.

GW admitted a long time ago they don't care if some armies can't compete, it's not what 40k is about, read through the BRB and you can see the emphasis they put on 'forging a narrative'. It's about the story, tournament play as in you just win the game to win the tourney is very much an American thing, GW have more sides to theirs don't they? Aren't most of their own tournaments partly about painting and modelling too? Heck their biggest event in the UK is GamesDay, the heart of which is what? A tournament? No it's a painting competition, that says it all really doesn't it?

[John Bower]

No-one (repeat: no-one) has said the last Tyranid codex was written for 6th edition. It was one of the very first 5th Edition codices. This is crazy-talk. Necrons and Grey Knights, yes. Dark Eldar, maybe. Tyranids? No. No no no.

I'm pretty sure GW said every dex from BA on was written with 6th ed in mind, and I'm also pretty sure nids came out after BA. We've actually had a pretty quick update compared to some armies that are still waiting for a new dex since 4th ed. I'm looking at you orks.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Nope. Tyranids were Jan 2010; Blood Angels April 2010.

Also, "GW" have said nothing of the sort; rumourmongers and interpretations of opinions from private conversations might've done so, but "GW" didn't.

[DarkLink]

Nor does GW understand its own game well enough to really write a codex with the core rules really in mind. If they'd truly understood how powerful Flyers were going to be, Night/Doomscythes wouldn't have been nearly as good.

[iNcontroL]

read through the thread...

'Nids did well at LVO because almost exclusively top players took them (save for 1-3 players I would say this is true). The highest placing nid player also played 2 other nid players :) Outside of this it is true that the LoS terrain helps a LOT. Even with these flyer armies crone vector strike range means that unless you get DoW and an opponent that runs up the board you aren't vector striking until turn 2 and really making those crones work so with LoS terrain this becomes a really strong turn 2. Factor in mawloc / flyrant play and you have perhaps the most brutal turn 2 in the game.

That said I really hope more tourneys take a hint from LVO and pack more terrain. I like the idea of a game including MORE tactical decisions and rewarding players for shrewd play as opposed to target priority.. there will always be eldar/tau armies that can ignore cover in large quantities but that doesn't mean it doesn't still benefit the more intelligent player imo.

And as Darklink said I took 31st but with my old Nids.. haha. Lost to goatboy really hard (60 daemonnettes and a warp storm table that claimed a tervigon/it's brood on turn 1). I already have another major tourney coming up where I will be taking my new Nids. Going to practice a bunch beforehand as well!

[daboarder]

People were still claiming the nids were written with 6th in mind as a justification for the book

[LCS]

So the Tyranids book definitely isn't the best, but it is not the worst. They aren't the only army forced to play a certain way to do well in tournaments, but they are the one people complain about the most. As a Dark Angels player, why should I care? Tyranids aren't the best, but they are still pretty close to the top.

[jonsgot]

No-one (repeat: no-one) has said the last Tyranid codex was written for 6th edition. It was one of the very first 5th Edition codices. This is crazy-talk. Necrons and Grey Knights, yes. Dark Eldar, maybe. Tyranids? No. No no no.

No but they did say the old codex was written with 6th in mind. However that means 6th was just "in mind" at that stage, They hadn't really worked out how it was going to play. So it wasn't written for 6th edition. The design team had a lot of fun ribbing one designer about how bad it was, however they got sick and embarrassed of people complaining about it. This codex was written some time ago for this edition, with no consideration of 7th. The design team wanted to put more special rules in this one, but Jervis just wanted it to play like the fluff and have the points right e.g. cheaper. The points values are right and in the hands of experienced nids players it is a good codex, it had been tested and was worked on for many months. I've said nothing here to get anyone in trouble or that the design team would deny.

The old codex may not have intentionally been written for 6th, but was easier to play in 6th than 5th. So in a way was written for 6th, which is what I was getting at.

[Eldar_Atog]

GW admitted a long time ago they don't care if some armies can't compete, it's not what 40k is about, read through the BRB and you can see the emphasis they put on 'forging a narrative'. It's about the story, tournament play as in you just win the game to win the tourney is very much an American thing, GW have more sides to theirs don't they? Aren't most of their own tournaments partly about painting and modelling too? Heck their biggest event in the UK is GamesDay, the heart of which is what? A tournament? No it's a painting competition, that says it all really doesn't it?


Would you play an army where you get you face bashed in every single week? After 2 years of this, would you rush out and buy a new rule book and models for an army that promises more of the same for the next 2-5 years? I would not and I'm very much a casual gamer who loves to build very fluffy lists.

Sorry, I am not picking at you specifically. I just can't buy into the "building a narrative" malarkey. I know that is what GW says but it's just a cop out on their part. A publicly owned company doesn't care about "building a narrative". They only care about increasing the bottom line while using as little money as possible.

That is why the rules are all over the place. They don't want to invest the money into balancing everything. It's easier to just throw something together and then release the models and rules at the same time. By the time you realize you bought a lemon, they already have your money.

You mentioned GamesDay... This was my impression of GamesDay. It was 25% ForgeWorld store, 25% GW store, 25% demo space, and 25% painting contest. The whole thing is about making you think you can paint/convert what you see in the painting/demo area and pushing you towards the stores. It truly was one of the most disappointing conventions I had ever been to... and I've been to some stinkers.

I probably sound kinda embittered but I do love the fluff and the models. It just gets under my skin when I see GW say things like "it's only a beer and pretezels game". That's them just being cheap.

[daboarder]

I've seen a few people make the statement that nids aren't the worst book ever, But only one person has offered their thoughts on what book they think was worse (overall, in terms of hobby, comp, and potential) on release.

[DarkLink]

Orks. They have exactly four decent units: Ghaz, Biker Nobz, Battle Wagons, and Lootas. They are mono-build, and lack the tools to compete with most current stuff. You can win with them, but they are probably worse than nids.

[daboarder]

but on release? I mean now sure but they're two editions old.

[Arkhan Land]

this release feels wrong because of the following:

1) lack of neccesary unit buffs to compete with other armies buffs they recieved in 6th ed.

2) the clear effect of a non gaming/fluff related issue with the current removal of the spore. instead of making their own kit which would have been a viable component of fluff and gameplay GW chose to omit it and will either roll it out in the future at higher price/dataslate cost or write it off entirely. literally a lawsuit sized hole in a critical infrastructure of our army

[daboarder]

You know what really **** me about the nids?

The list is constrained in options ALL OVER THE PLACE, because those options don't have models, even so far that units are we're removed from the book TWICE because of it.

But GW has some pig headed unwillingness to even give us back options that ARE on the kits. Wheres my extended carapace? My feeder tendrils? spore cysts? Implant attacks?.....the list goes on.

[jonas the jedi]

The same way csm do with no drop pods. I'm pretty sure they had them in 30k. Ps I'm not a fluff nut just don't meta. Aka just now got a land raider and abby cause it's not our helldrake anymore.

I thought that would land in the mycetic spore gripe.

[John Bower]

Would you play an army where you get you face bashed in every single week? After 2 years of this, would you rush out and buy a new rule book and models for an army that promises more of the same for the next 2-5 years? I would not and I'm very much a casual gamer who loves to build very fluffy lists.

Sorry, I am not picking at you specifically. I just can't buy into the "building a narrative" malarkey. I know that is what GW says but it's just a cop out on their part. A publicly owned company doesn't care about "building a narrative". They only care about increasing the bottom line while using as little money as possible.

That is why the rules are all over the place. They don't want to invest the money into balancing everything. It's easier to just throw something together and then release the models and rules at the same time. By the time you realize you bought a lemon, they already have your money.

You mentioned GamesDay... This was my impression of GamesDay. It was 25% ForgeWorld store, 25% GW store, 25% demo space, and 25% painting contest. The whole thing is about making you think you can paint/convert what you see in the painting/demo area and pushing you towards the stores. It truly was one of the most disappointing conventions I had ever been to... and I've been to some stinkers.

I probably sound kinda embittered but I do love the fluff and the models. It just gets under my skin when I see GW say things like "it's only a beer and pretezels game". That's them just being cheap.

Maybe I'm just used to all my armies getting their face bashed in every week. :) My tactics as I've been told are pretty solid, just my dice rolls suck.

[Eldar_Atog]

Maybe I'm just used to all my armies getting their face bashed in every week. :) My tactics as I've been told are pretty solid, just my dice rolls suck.

Heh, the dice gods can be cruel. I know how that goes :)