Need help against Traitor Guard

[The Black Rose]

Hi this is my first ever post

I play Dark Angels and my brother keeps whooping me with his Traitor Guard and Nurgle dudes from Imperial Armour 7. :mad:
I need some tactical advice or army lists, anything to beat him for a second time. :p
I've got at least one of everything except Sammael on his jet bike but I do have him in a land speeder. I've got around 6500 - 7000 pts of 'em with lots of Ravenwing and Deathwing. My brother uses foot-slogging Guardsmen with heavy weapon teams, 2 Leman Russ Demolishers with lascannons, Plague Marines, Plague Ogryns, a few autocannon Chimeras and a Bane Wolf. We normally play 1500 pts.

He mainly uses his Traitor Guard and most of the time he tables me on the 3rd or 4th turn. I'm normally alright with kill points if I survive long enough but objectives is where I get slaughtered. He never takes many casualties, maybe a guard squad and a tank but that's a bout it. In kill points he just out-shoots me. he tends to use two heavy weapons team, one of lascannons and one of AP3 poisoned mortars which kill my bikers on the first turn. We both say it's my setup thats wrong.
Almost every game I use:

Belial with lightning claws

Ravenwing Attack squad, 3 extra bikes, power weapon, attack bike with heavy bolter

Deathwing squad with heavy flamer and 4 with lightning claws (I put Belial in this squad)

Deathwing squad with assault cannon

Then with the last 620pts, I spend them on something that will make it hard for my opponent, either something. Normally Sammael, tactical squads and devastator squads

My brother uses:

Company command platoon with exhalted champion with a power fist plasma pistol, vox caster, plasma gun, chaos banner, all exept the champion are upgraded to veterans

Some named plague marine lord which gives plague zombies furious charge. (cos we can't find the book and we cant remember the name)

Anti-tank squad with lascannons and a mortar squad with chemical shells

4 Nurgle rougue psychers all with a second roll on the powers table

3 Plague ogryns

Renegade militia platoon: Renegade command squad with a vox caster, plasma gun, power fist and plasma pistol
2 Renegade militia squad both with plasma guns and vox casters

2 Renegade armoured fist squad: chimera with hull mounted heavy flamer and heavy stubber and autocannon
Renegade militia squad with meltagun and vox caster

Unit of around 25 plague zombies

2 Leman Russ Demolishers with hull mounted lascannons

We've not added it up because we can't find the book so its about right.

[Herald of Nurgle]

All about negation, my friend. Bring something to take on specific threats, and then use points to compound on threats. Think about your stuff that way.

[Fellend]

quite honestly i would first recommend you to find that sorceror and his entry, then find the book and add up the points...

I remember good moments like "the necron phase out rule doesn't count in apocalypse, I'm sure i've read it somewhere" or "IC HAS to attack my Emperor's Champion it says so in the codex"

Other than that I don't think it's wierd that you lose on objectives, you have 600 points left to spend on troops. That's not alot of objective grabbing power. I'm not a DA player so i'm not sure but it seems to me that you have alot of expensive elite units in your army. Which is all fine and dandy if they earn back their points but as you seem to have problem killing anything at all. You might want to consider if more cheaper units can' t do a better job.

[Duke]

The fist thing that I would suggest is to run the actual codex: Imperial Guard instead of Imperial Armour...

your playing Codex: Dark Angels, which right now is underpowered. Meanwhile he is power gaming a IA book. You are at a pretty big handicap.

That said, the best way to kill guard with marines is to hide a few whirlwinds... That and deepstriking a dread with heavy flamers... Pretty much anything with flamers will get him off the table in a hurry.

Duke

[Cryl]

The sorceror in question is Necrosius (pg. 143 Seige of Vraks III) he's 160 points and does give plague zombies furious charge.

Tactics wise, what Duke said is on the money. Whirlwinds are actually useful against guard and flamers will work nicely. To beat him you have to hit him hard and fast, get up in his face, burn him then hit what's left with chainswords until they're all dead. Not subtle but it'll be fun :)

[The Black Rose]

Thanks for your help guys and I'll try to put an army together to go against him.

The basic idea is lots of blast weapons, flamers and guns with lots of shots.

[The Black Rose]

The fist thing that I would suggest is to run the actual codex: Imperial Guard instead of Imperial Armour...

your playing Codex: Dark Angels, which right now is underpowered. Meanwhile he is power gaming a IA book. You are at a pretty big handicap.

That said, the best way to kill guard with marines is to hide a few whirlwinds... That and deepstriking a dread with heavy flamers... Pretty much anything with flamers will get him off the table in a hurry.

Duke

He doesn't use any of the flyers, apocalypse blasts(7" or 10") or super heavies
Codex Imperial Guard is actually stronger because all the units cost a little more in the Imperial Armour, you dont get orders in the Imperial Armour, they have random leadership and you can't combine squads so in kill points they don't stand much of a chance and the heavy weapons teams are not scoring units.

[Nabterayl]

You might also try finding the book. By my count your brother's fielding about 1670 points. I don't think the IA7 book is overpowered or unfair, but if you're playing at a 170 point handicap, no wonder you're having trouble!

[The Black Rose]

You might also try finding the book. By my count your brother's fielding about 1670 points. I don't think the IA7 book is overpowered or unfair, but if you're playing at a 170 point handicap, no wonder you're having trouble!

We've re-checked the list and there should only be 1 leman russ demolisher, not 2. So the points cost is ok. they're about 170 pts so that should be right.

[Nabterayl]

Yeah, a single Demolisher sounds right.

I agree with Duke's advice, and I'll echo Fellend's as well by saying that it sounds like you have very few models on the table. It seems like you're focusing a lot on the Deathwing delivery, with a full squad of Ravenwing and two squads of Deathwing, plus Belial. This strikes me as overkill for Nurglish Traitor Guard. Regular bolters are plenty well adapted for killing TNG, whereas his regular weapons are not well adapted for killing even regular tactical marines. In other words, he benefits when he can focus his fire on a small number of models, because his special weapons are more effective (a plasma gun would much rather shoot a Deathwing terminator than a tac marine, after all!), and his regular weapons can concentrate fire enough to start killing things.

You, on the other hand, don't really lose much killing power trading expensive specialist troops for cheaper, more numerous troops. So I think you would be well served to focus less on the Deathwing and Ravenwing, and more on the regular Dark Angels - tac marines, Whirlwinds, cheap Predators, etc.

[The Black Rose]

Yeah, a single Demolisher sounds right.

I agree with Duke's advice, and I'll echo Fellend's as well by saying that it sounds like you have very few models on the table. It seems like you're focusing a lot on the Deathwing delivery, with a full squad of Ravenwing and two squads of Deathwing, plus Belial. This strikes me as overkill for Nurglish Traitor Guard. Regular bolters are plenty well adapted for killing TNG, whereas his regular weapons are not well adapted for killing even regular tactical marines. In other words, he benefits when he can focus his fire on a small number of models, because his special weapons are more effective (a plasma gun would much rather shoot a Deathwing terminator than a tac marine, after all!), and his regular weapons can concentrate fire enough to start killing things.

You, on the other hand, don't really lose much killing power trading expensive specialist troops for cheaper, more numerous troops. So I think you would be well served to focus less on the Deathwing and Ravenwing, and more on the regular Dark Angels - tac marines, Whirlwinds, cheap Predators, etc.

thanks for the advice
ive come up with this army list
not sure if its good cos i havent tested it yet

I need some suggestions to help fight guard so any improvements to the list would be really helpful

HQ: Interrogator Chaplain with a power fist (he goes in the command squad)
HQ: Belial with lightning claws
HQ: Command Squad: Veteran with plasma pistol and standard
: Veteran with plasma pistol
: Veteran with power fist
: Veteran with plasma pistol and chainsword
: Veteran Apothachairy

Troop: Deathwing with heavy flamer and 4 lightning claws
Troop: Tactical squad with 10 men, melta bombs, missile launcher and flamer

Elites: Dreadnaught with multi-melta and close combat weapon with heavy flamer

Fast Attack: Assault marine squad with power weapon, combat shield and 2 plasma pistols
Fast Attack: Ravenwing Attack Squad with 2 meltaguns and a power fist
Heavy Support: Whirlwind

[Nabterayl]

I don't play Dark Angels, and I've never played against an NTG list, but my initial reaction to that list is that you're still focusing too much on cool stuff - it's still only 33 marines, even including vehicle crews. Can I suggest the following as food for thought:

As it stands right now, you've got a lot of walking to do, and against any flavor of Guard that's obviously a dangerous proposition. In order to disrupt your enemy's shooting, you've got three Ravenwing bikes and five assault marines, who will have to bound forward and keep the enemy busy long enough for your footsloggers to get into position to do some damage.

If I were in your shoes (and bear in mind I don't play Dark Angels, so take this advice with a grain of salt) I'd probably think about it like this:

Belial with a storm shield* and thunder hammer, backed by a Deathwing squad that included an apothecary, with thunder hammers and storm shields on all terminators (and perhaps a cyclone launcher**), plus a multi-melta dreadnought in a drop pod. Belial and the Deathwing can arrive turn 1, weather some very serious shooting, and threaten any unit in an NTG army. They probably won't survive, but they don't have to - just last a turn or two and make the enemy choose between focusing on them, or paying for it. About the time they die the dread should show up, and can perform the same function with multi-melta and heavy flamer. The dread is less survivable than a Deathwing command squad, but hopefully by the time it arrives, there will be fewer threats.

While the Deathwing and dread are creating a lovely distraction, you'll need some forces to take advantage of that distraction - they need to be able to threaten Guard infantry, seize objectives (because the Deathwing, while Troops, probably won't survive to claim anything), and get there fast enough to be in position by the time the NTG can focus on you. This, to me, says ten-man tac squads in Rhinos - they don't need to be heavily armed, but they do need to be numerous. I'd try to take at least three. The Rhinos may not survive, but as long as they can get a turn or two of 12" movement so you can bring your mass of bolters into play, they won't have to.

Finally, I'd aim to take a pair of Whirlwinds and perhaps a Predator, so that the Rhino-mounted force and the Deathwing have some covering fire. The Whirlwinds in particular can keep his pesky heavy weapons squads busy, so your Deathwing/dreadnought strike force have fewer targets to neutralize.

I haven't added this up, so I'm not sure how doable it is at 1500, but if I were in your shoes, this is where I would start.

This uses a very expensive squad (Belial and the Deathwing), but it uses them to do something no other unit in your codex can - namely, get in the face of an entire Guard gunline on turn 1 and say, "Shoot me with everything you have or we will mess you up." Everything else is aimed at getting lots of Guard-killing guns in position to fire as quickly as possible, and as cheaply as possible. I feel like it isn't too cheesy, but is tactically focused, and also lets you take out some neat Dark Angels-specific toys. In particular I'm staying away from the Ravenwing (who are very expensive bikers) and multiple HQs (I love my made-up HQ characters to death, but sometimes you just don't need more than one HQ, and I think this is one such case). It's also relatively easily adapted to lists other than just your brother's, by tooling the tac squads for anti-vehicle work (e.g., give them meltaguns and let the Whirlwinds handle the hordes that tac squad flamers would normally have).

* Per the latest Dark Angels FAQ, DA storm shields really ought to be treated as 3+ invulnerable saves all the time, despite what the codex says. Since you're playing with family and with an Imperial Armour list no less, I assume following the FAQ on this issue would not be a problem.
** As with the storm shields, DA cyclones really ought to get two shots apiece, too.

[Fellend]

Still to much expensive fancy and useless stuff. I don't know about DA but in BT commandsquads are ridiciously overpriced, quite useless and die like flies.
Namned characters = overpriced, gets targeted and dies and often not that good.

Stick with the normal things, especially for while playing with such low points.

[Nabterayl]

I agree, as a general rule, about sticking with cheap things. However, I feel I should point out that Belial is a very cost-effective HQ choice for Dark Angels. He's cheaper than a similarly-equipped generic HQ, with more options (all of which are free), opens the door to Deathwing command squads (which are expensive, but, unlike regular command squads, are both survivable and deadly), and makes terminators Troops.

[Xas]

first: this list is not powergaming. the only powerfull unit in the nurgle guard is the plague mortar and he only has one team.

try faceing ~5 of those teams, THEN we read powergamer :P
the rest is basically 10 points premium for every squad for an urneliable leadership.


what I would do:
marines, marines, marines. not much fancy stuff (why that expensive HQ and command squad if you can take allmost 2 tac squads for the same price?).

if you are worried about that one unit of mortars, take a whirlwind or two to blast them. here even a predator or devastor squad in cover would work (as basically everything short of a lasgun kills weapon teams easy).

maybe take a librarian if the psykers are doing crazy stuff to shut them down.