Catachans: Should they Stay - Or Go?

[Bigred]

A simple community poll today.

With IG coming up soon, people are starting to look at the range.

IG have always been odd with dual plastic ranges for both Cadians and Catachans - but the public opinion is wavering.

So shuld the Catachans stay and continue to fill out their range for variety's sake, or should they get the axe in favor of more Cadian units?

[canadianromeo]

Needs a third option:

Forget 'em both I want the other Regiments in plastic.

[Anggul]

They're cool, they just need the rest of the models to be like their much more recent command set.

[Gunndrakk]

@Anggul: Agree!

Imo, seems catachan are pretty cool, so i want to keep them :)

Aside the topic, me want some deathkorps in plastic XD

[Ghostofman]

Needs a third option:

Forget 'em both I want the other Regiments in plastic.

This.

Though I do feel the Catachans are just too cartoony. If they didn't look like they ate a big bowl of steroids for breakfast I'd like them a lot more.

[Proiteus]

Catachan's should stay, my only problem is the main plastic box set which needs a serious update!

[Christopher Szynkowski]

While I'm not a fan of them aesthetically, I do like the fact that they exist as an option, both in kits and in rules. I say leave them in... and add more of the old regiments back. I miss the variety and personalization you could get with the older ranges.

[SuperDann]

It's nice having something other than Cadians to model with. I use my Catachans as veterans in my IG detachment. But I also echo the sentiment of others on here- different regiments in plastic! That said, I understand that this is a big investment on the part of GW for very little outcome. What other regiment will sell well enough to convert to a full plastic range? Valhallans? Tallarn? Death Korps? And how well would that range/those ranges sell? At least with Space Marines you can differentiate the with just a paint job and a couple of bitz. It's hard to make a Cadian or a Catachan look like anything other than a Cadian or a Catachan.

[sfshilo]

They are awful.
Suppliment at best. Since when did an entire SUB faction of an army get an entire line of minis? It is a failed leftover from their codex, there are much more interesting subfactions that do NOT have minis, bits, nadda. Each guard dex has a new faction this one should be the same.

[KoszkaMade]

Keep them. I love Guerilla jungle fighters. Not to mention if the catachan line was resculpted, having access to bare arms, alternate heads/legs would be things that cadian players would be happy about.

I just feel that the first plastic models were never scaled properly for 40k (Waaaayyy to heroic scale, not to mention the goofy faces on 60% of the sprue). If they were more true scale and less heroic scale I could see a strong increase in popularity.

As a catachan player for the last 16 years i'd love to see them get re-sculpts that work better with the current mini line. That or forgeworld could give them love with an upgrade pack.

[Sly]

Since when did an entire SUB faction of an army get an entire line of minis?

Well, since they WERE the actual IG army before the Cadian line was created.

Granted, that's like saying that the previous range of Dark Eldar should still be maintained.

The best answer, IMO, is that just like a new edition supplanted Catachans as the basic IG line with a new Cadians line, this new edition should supplant Cadians with a Greatcoat set (with different heads to allow them modeled as either Valhallans or DKoK). That would make gamers happy, and be good for GW's sales as even old time IG players happily buy the new line.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Wow, what a bull**** poll set up with leading language, lol. Can't imagine what the authorial intent was to skew the results. :rolleyes:

Isn't it possible for both the Catachans to go away, and a new line be introduced for variety? Most people who dislike Catachans do so because the models are ridiculously awful, and the aesthetic kinda stupid. Most of them would probably not oppose the idea of replacing them with another line of figures, and just want more Cadians.

Well, since they WERE the actual IG army before the Cadian line was created.Wat?

You must be new to 40K. Welcome aboard. Before the plastic Catachans, there were 7 different lines of metal Imperial Guardsmen, and several other addition, but limited lines for specialized troopers. These include Cadians, Tallarns, Mordians, Praetorians, Valhallans, and Steel Legion as well as the original metal Catachans. And before that, there were generic Imperial Guardsmen who the original metal Cadians were loosely based on.

So no, at no point were the Catchans the "actual IG army". These guys were:
http://www.solegends.com/citrt/Wd110p15ImperialGuard-01.jpg

[phil035]

got to say I think they should stay to take the models away means loosing the army that has alot of face time in the fluff

[spiralingcadaver]

Vet Sgt, I love that line. I mean... in the way that you can love derpy old models. Rather, I think they had a good sci-fi look mixed with the cool breastplate for their command, a nice mix of early 40k/RT. I hope these guys eventually get revised by FW in some fashion as the Imperial Army.

Also, re: the original metal lines... still wish they hadn't gone with the horribly cartoony new Cadians and Catachan. I also fondly remember the Games Day when I was but a lad where they announced that they were planning to release a combo set of the pseudo-trenchcoat IG that consisted of a single kit to cover Steel Legion, Valhallans, and I think maybe Tallarn? I think that got turned into the Vostroyan line, but that's pure speculation. Still waiting...

Also, does anyone remember which order they came in? I know the last 4 were Praetorians, Steel Legion (which were originally also used for Death Korps), the teeny tiny Tanith/Gaunt's Ghosts line (which was technically enough to build a very repetitive army from) and much later Vostroyans, but, which order did the 5 after the original imperial guard come in?



RE: OP/poll, I think catachans are conceptually fine and they've got a reasonably good command squad and straken's pretty good, but that the vast majority of the rest of the line is just terrible. However, even if they stay terrible, I'd still still rather see them in the game than see all of non-FW IG become one homogenous army.

[John Bower]

Keep 'em, I wouldn't have been able to do my 'Aliens Colonial Marine Vets' without them. :) Besides, would be boring if all we had were Cadians.

[Keef]

Let them stay, but please let me have more Vostroyans!

[Lrd. Kitzchyner]

Despite the dated models and the cartoony silhouette. I think catachans should stay. In fact I think GW should add more factions. Aren't the IG all about diversity? The best and the worst of humanity drafted and herded onto a battlefield near you?

That said, their rules could do with a bit of special treatment to match the fluff. Remember the old catachan codex?

[Lee D Boosey]

I don't necessarily think that they should go. They just need an update as they are currently closer in look to steroid pumped jar heads, than the athletic look of well toned death world survivors i feel they should be. Though i would also like to see some new regiments in plastic. Maybe the Mordians with additional heads to also make the Praetorians too. I'd really like to see FW move they're own guard ranges into plastic too, but that is unlikely to happen anytime soon.

[This Dave]

Cadians, Tallarns, Mordians, Valhallans, Catachans, and Attilans (the Rough Rider guys) all came out at about the same time in 2nd edition. If I'm remembering right.

[deinol]

I voted "keep em", but mostly because the other option was "more cadians". I like having alternate uniforms to choose from. So if they have to go, I'd rather they were replaced by another style instead of just more of one style. In a perfect world, they could do a single plastic kit for each regiment and you'd be able to mix and match with the core lines to make what you need. Much the way the Space Marine bits are all mostly compatible but you can decide to do all one Mark if you really want to.

[Rissan4ever]

I think the Catachans should stay around, though they should be revamped to look more like the current command squad set and less like 80's action figures. I also think GW should do the other Guardsmen flavors in new plastic sets (Steel Legion, Mordians, Tallarn, Vostroyans, etc.) It would add a lot of variety and spice to the infantry, and it would play up the fact that the Imperial Guard come from a diversity of planets all over the vast Imperium.

[igazzkikr]

Keep them. My IG regiment uses a mix of Cadian, Catachan, and Tallarn painted in a unified desert scheme. The mix of types doesn't look at all out of place. The more variety the better.

[spiralingcadaver]

Cadians, Tallarns, Mordians, Valhallans, Catachans, and Attilans (the Rough Rider guys) all came out at about the same time in 2nd edition. If I'm remembering right.

Yeah, wasn't writing attilans since he kinda' shoehorned them in with "specialists"... BTW, does anyone know if that crazy Rough Rider army (the one that allowed any infantry to be upgraded to horsies) that existed in the 3rd edition release's mini-dex for Guard was from earlier editions, or something that briefly existed and never made it to a codex?

[GrauGeist]

Catachans should have rules as a Supplement, but not drive model sales.

Besides, we really want plastic Greatcoat Guard.

[White Tiger88]

A simple community poll today.

With IG coming up soon, people are starting to look at the range.

IG have always been odd with dual plastic ranges for both Cadians and Catachans - but the public opinion is wavering.

So shuld the Catachans stay and continue to fill out their range for variety's sake, or should they get the axe in favor of more Cadian units?

Give us Tanith........AND vostryians!

[Rissan4ever]

Tanith would be nice. There are 17 different flavors of Space Marine, all with their own kits. How come the Guard don't get that kind of love?

[John Bower]

Tanith would be nice. There are 17 different flavors of Space Marine, all with their own kits. How come the Guard don't get that kind of love?

Because they aren't Spess Mehreens. Only they get the blue eyed boy treatment from GW

[Rissan4ever]

Space Marines... bah! Half of them are traitors. And of the other half, two thirds are either mutants or heretics. We suffer them because we must, not because we like it.

[Ezaviel]

They are awful.
Suppliment at best. Since when did an entire SUB faction of an army get an entire line of minis? It is a failed leftover from their codex, there are much more interesting subfactions that do NOT have minis, bits, nadda. Each guard dex has a new faction this one should be the same.

Since Catachans were the FIRST IG to get a plastic line? Of course, back then there were like, 5 metal lines of IG.

[Jerry Toppins]

Just Make Imperial Guard all Death Korps of Krieg.

[Ickvar]

Needs a third option:

Forget 'em both I want the other Regiments in plastic.

This. I'd just love to see a more in depth and specialized rule-set for the differing regiments. Like they have for the Space Marines.

[ChacoStylez]

I voted keep them. I remember when the new Dark Eldar range came out, the updated sculpts were so awesome, I ended up collecting an entire army. I'd imagine if GW made an attempt to update the Catachan models as they did with Dark Eldar, the line would sell well.

But GW could do so much more:

Make them a dual kit to make penal legion as well.
Great coat dual kit to make steel legion or valhallans
Dress uniform dual kit to make mordians or pretorians

The possibilities are endless, and the mixing and matching could make so many different armies as well, truly a modelers dream for the creativity it would produce.
One can always dream.

[Mike Lawler]

Catachans were my first army... I remember playing many a match on tables covered in aquarium plants and extremely iffy line of sight rules. Fielding a bunch of Devil units and watching them soak wounds for powerfists that were sweeping advance machines.. It wasn't an amazing force but it was a lot of fun.
I think they should keep the army but the line needs to be made more modern. The muscles and poses on the standard infantry box are a bad joke. I have always preferred the look of the arms on Marauders and IMO that's where they should be. There are a load of other problems with them but basically just freshen them up.

I think the sculpts on the Catachan HW teams and Command squad as well as the special characters are nice and really a standard the rest of the range should be brought to.
It would also be nice to see a Deathworld add-on kit like the Dark Angels sprue that adds cool plants and things like the man-eating fly-trap on the HW sprue.

As for the other discussion about the rest of the range. Frankly, IG need to be re-imagined. I think Catachans should be in another book, either alone or collected with the other specialist worlds. I don't like Cadians... or really the WWII but not WWII thing. I used to love it but the models are stale and based on designs that predate the current advances in manufacturing. A lot of that is talking about the tanks, but it's also about the enormous and laughable over-sized weapons. Man is forced to fight with laser guns using technology that barely qualifies as technology (we had tanks back in Da Vinci's day and motorized ones as soon as we had engines) while everyone else is using floating tanks and high-speed pew pew. Look at video games like Killzone or Gears of War.. if we had to use things that were just slightly more advanced than our current things, it would be more like that IMO.

Sorry for the long rant. I used to have over 10k of IG and am trying to find a reason to love them again. This stuff has been on my chest for a while.

[Admiral Kenaris]

I voted to keep the Catachans although I would never collect them for anything but convicts. My army is mostly pewter anyway. Cadians and Praetorians. If they were to actually release a supplemental codex for Mordians/Praetorians I might emulate a certain Lonely Island song.

[This Dave]

I actually have been using Catachan torsos for my artillery crews. They look like guys that have taken off their shirts and armor like the men do when they're slinging heavy shells and powder bags around.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

never liked them or what they were based on but dont think they should go - there should just be more plastic guard types instead.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Catachans are kinda weird. They look like the 80s 1 man army lone wolf action hero, but the Imperial Guard is mostly about waves of expendable infantry.

Still, no reason to get rid of the existing kits, but maybe don't put effort into expanding Catachans.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Cadians, Tallarns, Mordians, Valhallans, Catachans, and Attilans (the Rough Rider guys) all came out at about the same time in 2nd edition. If I'm remembering right.
Those were the 5 that arrived in 1995 with the 2nd Edition IGuard Codex (plus the Attilans, though they weren't really a "line" in the sense that you could make a regular army out of them). Praetorians were next in 97, then Steel Legion in 99 for the Armageddon campaign. Tanith were 2002 I think (maybe somebody can correct. I don't have any on hand but it was a little while after the novel series started) with the Vostroyans bringing up the rear with their last-gasp metal line in 2006.

The "specialist" lines were Stormtroopers, ratlings, ogryns, rough riders, etc. Things you weren't building an entire army out of. Can probably include the Tanith in that, technically, given their lack of heavy weapons teams or special weapons.

[kellyj]

Catachans should stay. Then the new IG ex should break them and Cadians apart the same way Space Marine Chapters are. No more Marbo in a Cadian force nor Creed in a Catachan army.
Then to flavor the army's, give Catachans move through cover and allow 1 unit to outflank with the ability to assault the turn it comes in (i'm looking at you Ogryns). Cadians get +1 cover in ruins and HWTs get Tank Hunter.

[Katharon]

Give us Mordians and Steel Legion in plastic alongside the Catachans and Cadians, and I'd be happy as a clam.

[Grey Mage]

Personally Id like ~4 options, in plastic, for guard. One them possibly a traitor guard regiment!

[eldargal]

I don't think they should go, variety is important. I would like to see their aesthetic toned down a bit though, more hardened jungle fighter, less 1980s bodybuilder and some women wouldn't go amiss.

[Psychosplodge]

The imperial guard would be very boring if you had only Cadians or FW offerings.
Every piece of fluff ever talks about the variety of recruits and equipment from across the Imperium.

[SolidGopher]

As much as I would love to see my Vahallans in plastic, after buying over 200 models of the old metal rabge I think I would cry... But I do want to see more regiments again, and if anything an online "codex regiments" with rules for playing said regiments.

[completeHook]

On p28 of the Guard codex there is a full page illustration that really captures what the Guard should be about.

Centre stage is an officer dressed like a christmas tree reading off a massive ream of parchment. The troopers around him have elements of Vostroyan, Valhallen and Steel Legion in their uniforms, but aren't any in particular. There are odd heavily augmented support staff, there are goggles, gasmasks, bits of regimental bling and they're all carrying a lot of kit.

These days if you want colonial era British troops in pith helmets or Soviet infantry from the battle of Stalingrad you are spoilt for choice, GW should be concentrating on using the strong aesthetic of the rich universe they have created and bringing the Guard more into line with that. It would probably be for the best if some of the regiments with weaker more historically influenced designs were sidelined.

Then if you took the idea of the Mordens, gave them body armour with lots of frogging, some augmetics and techy bits, do what Forgeworld did with the DKoK commissars and turn that peaked cap into helmet with peaked cap detailing you could have something cool and more importantly appropriate for the 40k universe (rather than for taming lions).

And this comes round to the Catachans. There is definitely room for scruffy indepently minded troops who get the job done and don't care for your rules... man, but as many others on this thread have said the steroids for breakfast, shirts off and high waisted trousers look is very dated. Just toning down the cartoonish hyper-masculinity and giving a nod to the Imperiums gothic look would do it (and maybe having a quite word in Strachan's shell-like to tell his lads to put some shirts on, the other regiments are talking...).

[Psychosplodge]

Let the other regiments talk.
The catachans don't care... :D

[completeHook]

I had a think about it and here's how to make the Catachans cool.

Boonie hats, cut off combats with combat boots and ponchos, it rains in the jungle.

No need to get the redacted hammer of the shelf, still the same roided up meatheads just in wet weather gear.

[Arkhan Land]

Against some of my own instincts I am going to say they should go, not really because of the sculpt the image or really anything of that nature, its just more-so of an enviroment aesthetic concept.

GW let catatchans go, just compare the photo sections of the 3rd edition and current rulebook and tell me what sort of enviroments you expect from a narrative perspective... Jungles OUT! Rubble IN!

Ive only been to a few game stores that have boards worthy of being called a deathworld...

just sort of narrartively/visually un-nerving to send your troops into a winter battle in cutoffs and bandanas

[Veteran Sergeant]

Give us Mordians and Steel Legion in plastic alongside the Catachans and Cadians, and I'd be happy as a clam.
Never much cared for the Mordians but I have well over 100 Steel Legion and would add plastics.

I just wonder how you do them in multi-part plastic with the respirator hose. The best you could do would be solid head/torso bits and then make the arms and legs separate pieces.

Either way, I don't see them doing Steel Legion because it would be too similar to the DKoK line by Forgeworld. Even though the DKoK are just pretenders who usurped the trenchcoat and gasmask image from the Steel Legion...

[Rissan4ever]

For Steel Legion plastics, they could sculpt new heads with hoseless masks.

[Lord Syruss]

I voted to keep the Catachans, but I agree with a lot of what's been said here in regard to them feeling tired and dated. Mentioning Rambo is apt, since it feels to me like the Catachans are an 80s holdover, appropriate to when they were introduced, but not so much now.

And I also wanted to weigh in on the idea of regimental doctrines, which I like, and having regiment specific commanders, which I don't like. The idea makes sense more for the Space Marines because of the nature of their chapter segregation. The Guard, however, is built around the idea of bringing together whatever regiments can be found and hammering their foes into submission. As such, it wouldn't be uncommon for, say, a catachan commander to be in command of Cadians and Valhallans.

Just my two cents.

[John Bower]

Yeah, got to agree there, what works for the Marines is not a go for guard, who work together under a single commander much more reliably and closely.

[Katharon]

And I also wanted to weigh in on the idea of regimental doctrines, which I like, and having regiment specific commanders, which I don't like. The idea makes sense more for the Space Marines because of the nature of their chapter segregation. The Guard, however, is built around the idea of bringing together whatever regiments can be found and hammering their foes into submission. As such, it wouldn't be uncommon for, say, a catachan commander to be in command of Cadians and Valhallans.

Just my two cents.

This I kind of have to disagree with. One thing that has always irritated some of the guys I play with in my local shop is the fact that I have a Cadian IG army and yet I have Straken and Marbo sometimes in my lists. To them, and in light of the chapter tactics of SMs, it seems a bit disingenuous to have an entire army of one army type, with a few special characters from another just to gain advantage somehow.

I think that it would be better for the various IG groups (Cadians, Catachans, Mordians, Steel Legion, et al.) to each have specific attributes that only work for them and that you can only have access to certain units if you are fielding a certain army type.

For example, if you have Catachans then you're allowed to take any Catachan or standard IG character (Mogul Kamir, Pask) character in your army, but you're not allowed to take Creed. Because you are Catachan, all your infantry model units have Move Through Cover and gain an extra +1 to cover saves when hiding in forests or jungles.

Cadians are allowed to take any Cadian or standard IG character (Mogul Kamir, Pask), but not Catachan. Because they are Cadian, all units have the Stubborn USR and have the ability to "fortify" a piece of terrain on the board to give it +1 cover save (because they are born on the most vital Fortress World in the Imperium of Man).


Those kinds of things are what I mean. It's more even and less liable to produce some weird and sometimes OP combos.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I dunno about that, mixing special characters never really bugged me. They're basically just common archetypes, after all - Marbo/Creed aren't exactly gripping characters, I just think of them as Lone Wolf and Stocky Genius General, and if a player's using them as "Cadian Agent 7" or Catachan's "General Maverick", I'm fine with it.

[SolidGopher]

I have a creed model, I never use it. I bashed my commander and if I want to field creed, I use MY commander as the model. I've never seen the issue with mixing chapter and regiment units since every major engagement in Imperial history was a joint effort between multiple branches of the Empire's military might. Calgar was at this battle with his brother mariens? well that's nice, so where the Imperial fists, the Space Sharks, the Mantis, the Catchcans, the Death Core, the Mordians, the Inquisition, the Titan Legions, the Mechanicus, and the supply lines are freed up by Rouge Traders. Sly Marbo may not be their but some other sneaky git was who was just as good as he was but he was a Praetorian guardsman. The ability to bring all these different characters and character archetypes together on the same field of battle shows the diversity of the Empire's fighting force working in unison to crush the Xenos threat.

[mr_draken]

I hope they stay! Ive always wanted some Catachans, and i have a planned out themed army which uses the over the toppedness people are hating on.

131st Expendables. No Russes, (though lots of artillary, hellhounds etc) and bunch load of unique units. Every Sargent modeled and named after an 80s/90s action movie character and done to match. The air support would be painted with pinnups on the sides, and the classic mean toothy face on the front of all ships.

The Catachans may not fit well with your view of the Imperium, But that's what i like about them. And that's what the people i know who have them like about them, Im fine with toneing down abit if they must, but yeah..... keep the Catachan feel to them! i don't want another samey samey regiment.

[Charistoph]

Models should be redone, little question. But they should be retained.

They make for a great visual theme, and if they include Doctrines again, well...

[m3g4tr0n]

Keep them. We need more choices than just Cadians.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Guard regiments are odd in that designs rarely have any interchangeable parts, while most of the power armour 'dexs can get good use out of the Tactical Squad box.

Maybe if GW switched to smaller, more specialized sprues for the guard? Say, a 1-2 small sprues with regiment bodies/lasguns/special weapon arms/command options/vehicle crew options, and then special and heavy weapons sprues that can be used by any regiment?

[Dimitrios]

I think the current fluff for the imperial guard mirrors the reality of the Imperium of Man closer than any other imperial force. The Imperium is a unimaginably massive and disconnected beast... millions of small clusters of worlds held together by string, the inquisition and the belief in the god-emperor. Each of these clusters is as varied, both culturally and militarily as the countries of the planet we inhabit ourselves.

What this means for the "Astra Militarum" is that each world cluster will have a different uniform, military tradition, levels of equipment, fighting style and culture and this is reflected on the table top. The simple lack of a certain military asset, such as vehicle fuel, would have a drastic affect on the types of battles a platoon of a certain cluster would engage in; this would affect the equipment they choose and the military fatigues they choose to wear. The catachans, albeit the result of a number of 1980's films, are one such example of this and were popularised with the release of a series of plastic miniatures way back when. Yes these models are now old and underpar but removing them for this reason alone would be a sin.

One Astra Militarum codex once captured this varied battle style with a "pick and choose" doctrine system that allowed for the customisations of a force to represent one of the many varied regiments or to allow for a custom regiment to be created (akin to an older Astartes codex). The newer, and better, way of tacling this is through in codex special characters or through suppliments and I would encourage GW to take this approach for the Catachans.

I would love to see a Suppliment Catachans, Suppliment Valhalans, etc to represent the various styles and types of army, but equally allow for the creation of the various Platoons the Astra Militarium deploy (Armoured Company, Light Platoon Company, Heavy Weapon Company, etc).

[Brennen]

I say keep them. Although I hate the mohawk heads. I gave all mine Camo-net covered helmets from West Wind miniatures to give them more of a Vietnam veteran look and feel.

[Denzark]

This idea that a Guard formation would have a squad of this and a squad of that would be unlikely. Scratch units are formed, true - but this is from remnants of units whose casualty rates make them untenable as a force in their own right. For unit cohesion/command and control, the munitorum with responsibility for that area of operations, would be likely to give them a re-issue of all their kit. There are a few circumstances whereby I could see a mix of uniforms readily apparent:

1. An honour guard at the Divisional / Higher echelon HQ representing all the units in the AO.

2. A casualty clearing station at rear ech where chaps have come wounded from their sub units but haven't been processed back into hospital kit.

Other than that a second edition style force with one tallarn one valhallan one catachan one cadian squad - would be unlikely.

If you look at Tanith and the units they merged with, they tended (iirc) to wear tanith fatigues across the whole force and just wear unit pins/badges at the sub-unit level - stuff whereby at 28mm you would never see the difference.

[Denzark]

PS whilst I get the jungle vibe, true jungle activity isn't conducted in short sleeves - leeches and nasties would be all over you. So the vested look is a bit of a misnomer.