Thunderbolts and PDFs

[Cryl]

Is there any precedent in 40k background for air power (e.g. thunderbolts, lightnings or marauders) belonging to PDF or guard forces rather than Imperial Navy?

I've finally built up the courage to attempt to build and paint my Thunderbolt and want to mark it up as part of my Ultramar PDF force but other than Double Eagle (where a fighter wing was the guard / PDF for a particular world that had no land mass iirc) I'm not sure this would actually be allowed by the administratum.

Although I could build up a convincing argument for why Lord Macragge has managed to "borrow" a fighter wing for his PDF to use I thought I'd see if the combined fluff knowledge of these forums could help out!

[lobster-overlord]

I've only read one book, Rebel Winter, and it talks of the local world having a defense force, so I would assume it would be plausible.

John M>

[Ole]

I think, most PDFs only got low-tech airpower (not exactly as old fashioned as propeller-driven aircrafts, but maybe "only" jet-powered stuff, without vector-thrust, space-capability etc). Don't ask me where I read it (I THINK I did, but I couldn't say where), but as sufficiently advanced planets usually even have space-going vessels for planetary defense, aircrafts should be present too.

Of course, I guess that would depend on the type of planet (stone-age civilizations typically don't have aircrafts...) and iirc Ultramar is a special case anyway, so I wouldn't rule out a wing of Thunderbolts in their PDF.

[Old_Paladin]

Read the novel "Guns of Tanith" in addition to the spin-off "Double Eagle"
The pdf and guard units from Phantine use both modern imperial and aged, local air-technology; but Phantine is also a special planet.

So there are at least some forces that use lighnings, thunderbolts, etc. that are not Imperial Navy. However, I'd also guess that these groups are the minority; and most armies will require Navy based air-support.

[Fellend]

Not that 40k is always logical but it would seem quite silly to me to defend a planet withouth airsupport. If nothing else, the sheer distance would make airsupport needed.
But generally, it seems uncommon for 40k battles to use any sort of fighter plane at all. prefering instead to use them for rapid deployment of troops

[ColCorbane]

I'm not sure this would actually be allowed by the administratum.

Well the Imperium is a big place, so anything is possible but more importantly, they're your models, you can put whatever the hell you want on them.

[Cryl]

Well the Imperium is a big place, so anything is possible but more importantly, they're your models, you can put whatever the hell you want on them.

True enough but I like to stick fairly closely to what's established as "real" in the universe. That said since no one has posted here with anything that categorically rules out planetary defence forces having air wings, I will put whatever the hell I want on it and make it part of the Ultramar PDF :)

[Valdore]

I believe it hasn't been unknown for equipment to mysteriously go missing from reserves . . . at the end of the day it is your army and you can make any fluff up to support them having Thunderbolts, so long as it is within reason. Ultramar PDF are more than likely to have equipment that other PDFs don't have, and I wouldn't put it past them to have a permanent detachment of the Imperial Navy stationed there, it wouldn't be unreasonable for a commander to request the use of Navy support if needed.

Alternatively they could be relics left over from a time when the planet was cut off from the Imperium, and they were transported to the surface to protect them from the ravages of space and have been attached to the PDF for their outstanding service.

Like I say, at the end of the day, if you can make up believable fluff to support it, I would have no argument with you. A lot of people wouldn't even bother with that so you're already a rung up the ladder!

[Psychosplodge]

The way I've read it is that it appears most planets of any import have at least small non-warp capable third-line naval presence so a formation of fighters wouldn't be unexpected, somewhere like Ultramar would be almost guarnteed to have fighters to support the pdf.

[Night System]

to be honest, in my opinion the ultramar system is of such import to the imperium that i would not be surprised if there was a permenent detachment of the segmentum ultima battlefleet guarding the sector. While normal PDF's are less likely to have such advanced equipment, it is noted that the ultramar planets are the the pinacle of the imperium, and as such are the most likely of all planets to have them :)

[Melissia]

True enough but I like to stick fairly closely to what's established as "real" in the universe. That said since no one has posted here with anything that categorically rules out planetary defence forces having air wings, I will put whatever the hell I want on it and make it part of the Ultramar PDF :)Being GW's favorite lovetoy, if papa smurf wants it, papa smurf gets it.

[Red 2]

I was just looking through Imperial Armour I, and I came across this sentence: "Like all aircraft, the Marauder comes under the command of the Imperial Navy, not the Imperial Guard." Fluffwise, this means that your Thunderbolts would be part of a Naval detachment on Ultramar, not a part of the Ultramar PDF. However, captions of the pictures in the same section indicate that the colors and markings of Thunderbolts are changed constantly to represent the campaign or action at the time. They are also personalized from time to time. Given this, I think it would be perfectly within the bounds of the fluff to say that the naval commander chose to have the Thunderbolts painted in the colors of the Ultramar PDF, maybe as a way of recognizing the honor and tradition of the system.

[Nabterayl]

Backing up Red 2 here, BFG specifically states that system defense monitors are crewed by Navy personnel. So it appears that the Navy is responsible for both offensive operations and system security (unlike the Guard, which is responsible solely for offensive operations, with system security handed off to the PDFs). I think this supports the view that any fighters in the Ultramar PDFs would technically be Navy planes - though, as Red 2 pointed out, you could still justify painting them in PDF colors.

[Just_Me]

The short version is yes, it makes perfect sense for a PDF to have air power. I would assume that any "modern" Imperial world would have their own air force to complement their ground PDF. Recall that PDF means planetary defense force, they have to defend the whole planet which includes the air.

If the PDF consists of medieval armsmen, then no, no air power. If however the world is at the tech level of at least the 20th century, then an air force would be a basic requirement not only to properly defend their world from outside, but to control the planet itself and guard against internal threats.

Double Eagle shows beyond doubt that PDFs do have air elements, even though they may be at a lower tech level than standard Imperial Navy tech. A sufficiently important or high tech world might well have PDF forces equipped on par with Guard and Navy levels, and Ultramar would fit that category (after all, as we all know, everything is better in Ultramar :p).

[Nabterayl]

Just_Me - I see that Double Eagle explicitly references PDF pilots. Do we have any hard instances of a PDF including Thunderbolts, Lightnings, or Marauders? I'm wondering if we have any hard evidence that contradicts the IA1 statement that those models of plane are flown exclusively by the Navy.

[Just_Me]

Just_Me - I see that Double Eagle explicitly references PDF pilots. Do we have any hard instances of a PDF including Thunderbolts, Lightnings, or Marauders? I'm wondering if we have any hard evidence that contradicts the IA1 statement that those models of plane are flown exclusively by the Navy.

Beyond the already mentioned Phantine? None that I am aware of, but for nearly every rule in 40k there is an exception, so I suppose it is possible. We do know that certain worlds are afforded exceptions (the Phantine for instance), and we also know that world which produce weapons and equipment for the Imperial Guard are known to use the same equipment when outfitting their PDFs (as I recall Armageddon PDF forces are liberally provided with Chimeras and other armored units that the planet manufactures for the Guard). If a manufacturing world produced Thunderbolts and the like for the Imperial Navy, we might expect them to out fit their air force with those craft, which would certainly make more sense than running separate production lines for lower tech craft.

[Nabterayl]

The Phantine were a PDF squadron? I haven't read Double Eagle, but I thought the Phantine XX were a Navy squadron operating on Enothis (which had its own PDF, which included pilots).

[Cryl]

The Phantine were actually Imperial Guard rather than Navy, I think the book makes reference that they're the only regiment of their kind. The planet had little to no land mass iirc and so the use of infantry / tanks was inappropriate.

[sebi81]

it´s true that aircraft does belong to the imperial navy and not to the imperial guard. But that doesn´t imply that aircraft can´t belong to a PDF. PDF are not imperial guard. What belongs to a PDF isn´t similar to what belongs to guard regiments. I really can´t imagine a planet not having its own aircraft to defend it. If only the navy would have any aircraft, where should they get their pilots from?
The imperial guard is built of the best trained soldiers of a planet. If the planet doesn´t built or use lasguns itself (like medieval worlds etc.), they get it from the administratum. Those soldiers who aren´t send to imperial guard stay on the planet as PDF.
I think that the same way the best pilots of a planet are send to the imperial navy. There they get the aircraft used by the imperial navy. Those pilots staying on the planet would fly the aircraft which is available on this planet in the same way PDF soldiers fight with the weapons available on their planet (be it autoguns, lasguns or even crossbows). If the planet is on a high technological level like ultramar, the soldiers use lasguns and the pilots use thunderbolts etc.
If the planets own aircrafts are attached to the PDF or build an own planetary navy depends on how the planet or the gouvernor of the planet decides it.

[Just_Me]

The Phantine were a PDF squadron? I haven't read Double Eagle, but I thought the Phantine XX were a Navy squadron operating on Enothis (which had its own PDF, which included pilots).

The Phantine units sent to Enothis were Guard, but some of the Phantine units that were mentioned on Phantine itself were PDF, and they did have Thunderbolts, Lightnings, etc. Granted the Phantine are very are unusual, but they do set precedent.

[Gotthammer]

Aeronautic Imperialis has a planet with permanently garrisoned squadrons. So even outside of the PDF a Ultramar based navy squadron isn't out of the question either.

[Porty1119]

From Double Eagle, I'd assume that most planets have PDF air assets. Enothis, I think, is fairly typical for an industrialized Imperial world, so most planets would have something like Korean War-era hardware. Of course, planets in a dangerous region or more advanced tech levels would have improved hardware. Kind of like my Guard regiment's homeworld that flies F-14s!!! :D