Stat the Blood Angels Successors Chapter Masters (And Others)

[ElectricPaladin]

Let's create homebrew stats for the Chapter Masters (and possibly other luminaries) of the Blood Angels successors.

In this first post, I will make a quick list of the known information that should guide our choices hereafter. Then, interested parties can post their suggestions, and we can create the characters via rocky online consensus. The best kind of random committee process!

Actually, I really like you guys. I bet this will be a lot of fun, and maybe we can even create some things that our buddies will let us play in friendly games.


• • •

The Chapters

Angels Vermillion
• Shun other Blood Angels successors.
• Rumors of an additional curse on their chapter.

Blood Drinkers
• Incorporate blood drinking into their rituals, which seems to have given them some resistance to the Flaw
• Probably this means reduced instance of the Black Rage and Red Thirst.

Angels Encarmine
• Loosing their ****.
• Chapter Master Castellan Zargo can't rest and constantly pushes the Chapter into battle.
• Large Death Company.

Angels Sanguine
• Hide their faces at all times.
• Rumors that they have become hideous/mutated?

Knights of Blood
• Berserkers
• Declared renegade, but still loyal to the Imperium and their progenitors.

Chapter Masters

Commander Dante - 225 Points
• WS 6, BS 5, S 4, T 4, W 4, I 6, A 4, Ld 10, Sv 2+/4++
• Comes with Grenades, Infernus Pistol, Jump Pack, and a Master-Crafted Power Axe
• In addition to typical Blood Angels rules, he doesn't scatter when Deep Striking, has Hit-and-Run, and includes a suped-up Death Mask which can bone a single opponent's stats.

Gabriel Seth - 160 Points
• WS 6, BS 5, S 4, T 4, W 4, I 5, A 4, Ld 10, Sv 3+/4++
• Comes with Bolt Pistol, Grenades, and a Strength 8 Rending Chainsword
• In addition to typical Blood Angels rules, he can give up his attacks to auto-hit all enemies in base-to-base contact and can make an immediate out-of-Initiative attack when an opponent misses him with a 1.

Marneus Calgar - 275 Points
• WS 6, BS 5, S 4, T 4, W 4, I 5, A 4, Ld 10, Sv 2+/4++
• Comes with Grenades, Power Sword, Paired Power Fists that are also AP 2 Storm Bolters
• Gets to roll three warlord traits and pick one, Ultramarines models can chose to fail Morale tests and double use of one Combat Doctrine, rerolls to penetrate armor in close combat, Orbital Bombardment

Pedro Cantor - 185 Points
• WS 6, BS 5, S 4, T 4, W 4, I 5, A 4, Ld 10, Sv 3+/4++
• Comes with Power Fist, Grenades, Double-Shot Storm Bolter
• Orbital Bombardment, also Gives all Crimson Fists models Preferred Enemy (Orks) and has a Chapter Banner. Additionally, Sternguard Vets can score.


• • •

What are the known knows?
• WS 6, BS 5, T 4, W 4, I 5 or 6, Ld 10, and Sv 2+ or 3+, and a 4++
• Points cost between high 100s and low 200s.
• In most cases, grants at least one army-wide benefit

So, go to town. I'll be back later to post my own thoughts and suggestions for each of the chapters.

[ElectricPaladin]

So, here are my random inspirations, by chapter:

Angels Vermillion

I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to represent some sort of additional and shameful curse, but I'd like to see it reflected in this, or another, special character.

Blood Drinkers

I view their Chapter Master as a ritualist. Either he already has some of the qualities of a reclusiarch - perhaps being Fearless and granting any squad he joins the same trait - or we should also create a high chaplain for the Angels Vermillion, or both (or, alternately, we should scrap the idea of creating their chapter master and just create their High Chaplain). Another possibility is that he grants squads an additional bonus if they are accompanied by a chaplain/reclusiarch, such as the Rage USR if they are also Fearless.

Another possibility is that given that the Blood Drinkers are supposed to be calmer, their chapter master could be more of a tactical support character, perhaps with a special flexible warlord trait or some way of manipulating reserves or objectives.

Angels Encarmine

As a chapter that is totally losing their **** and has an enormous death company, I imagine that the chapter master is probably a total combat beast along the lines of Gabriel Seth. Honestly, I'm tempted to say "copy Seth's statline" and move on.

Angels Sanguine

Something about their hideousness. Perhaps the Fear USR? Other than that, probably a standard chapter master. Combat beast. Some minor support abilities

Knights of Blood

I'm biased towards them because I play them. We know that they are frenzied berserkers, bad enough that the Inquisition has turned against them, but still loyal to the Emperor. I'd like him to stand out - like I said, I play Knights of Blood myself - but I don't know how. Maybe he's in terminator armor?

[lobster-overlord]

I've been building my sucsessor chapter for years. I've kept the structure more to codex sm level because I originally started with just the c:sm 3rd ed book then got the ba supplement, and really didnt know much on fluff. lately, I have been trying to fill out several companies including company captains and a master. I have never really given much thought to what themaster would do to benefitthe whole army. I have always just used dante when I wanted to play with that character on the board. I will have to start to think about it more now for this thread.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Knights of Blood

I'm biased towards them because I play them. We know that they are frenzied berserkers, bad enough that the Inquisition has turned against them, but still loyal to the Emperor. I'd like him to stand out - like I said, I play Knights of Blood myself - but I don't know how. Maybe he's in terminator armor?The note about Terminator Armor makes me think of the World Eaters' Red Butchers - Terminator Armor that can be remotely shut down to control the occupant. Maybe the Chapter Master of the Knights of Blood willingly has a similar setup, to control his bezerker rages? Say, with each model he kills, he gets a good stat-boost, but an increasingly higher risk of attacking his allies, and thus suffering from an automatic-armour-shutdown?

[ElectricPaladin]

The note about Terminator Armor makes me think of the World Eaters' Red Butchers - Terminator Armor that can be remotely shut down to control the occupant. Maybe the Chapter Master of the Knights of Blood willingly has a similar setup, to control his bezerker rages? Say, with each model he kills, he gets a good stat-boost, but an increasingly higher risk of attacking his allies, and thus suffering from an automatic-armour-shutdown?

I'm not sure about stealing the automatic shutdown from the World Eaters - I like to steer clear of stealing other folks' design spaces - but I like the whole kills boost stats, stat boosts lead to madness thing. How about a rule like this:

Killing Rage USR

Every time this model slays another model in close combat it enjoys a cumulative +1 to Weapon Skill, Strength, and Initiative as well as a -1 penalty to Leadership. If this model fails a morale test, however, it enters a berserk state in which it can no longer tell friend from foe. While in this condition, the model's close combat attacks are evenly distributed amongst all nearby models, beginning with the closest. Once one attack is allocated to all models within 2'', the model's controller may allocate additional attacks as he sees fit.

The Killing Rage USR automatically confers the Fearless and Rage USRs.

[DWest]

Angels Sanguine- Mask of Living Death: The Chapter Master wears a beaten gold mask, his death mask, while still (tenuously) in the world of the living. As the Sang Guard death masks, test at -1 Ld. Would grant him the Sanguinary Guard kit otherwise (glaive, angelus boltgun, 2+ armor and jump pack), and probably Rage and FNP, to say that he's one half a step away from being in the Death Company. Estimating 205 points?

[Houghten]

Eh... as you've written Killing Rage, the unit will never have to actually *take* a Morale test because it's Fearless. Might want to word some kind of exception in there.

The WS, S and I all cap out at 10, obviously, but what happens if the unit kills so many things it reduces itself to Ld 0?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Hmm. On the note of Killing Rage, I'd recommend avoiding Leadership/Morale test dependent special rules - morale is one of the most convoluted parts of the rule system, with so many modifiers, odd unit interactions and so forth. Perhaps something along the lines of;

Frenzy: Every time this model destroys another in Close Combat (excluding Sweeping Advances), it gains a Frenzy Token (to a maximum of 5). For each Frenzy Token it possesses, this model gains +1 Attack - however, if any of these additional Attacks fail their To-Hit roll, they are instead allocated to friendly models, as chosen by the opposing player.

[Wolfshade]

Angels Vermillion

I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to represent some sort of additional and shameful curse, but I'd like to see it reflected in this, or another, special character.

How about:
The Angels Vermillion shun all contact with their brother Chapters, and bear their curse in solitude. Only in the most dire straights will the Angels Vermillion fight along side Blood Angels or other sucessor chapters and when they do so they treat them as "Desperate Allies". May never ally with a force that contains any Sisters of Battle following a bitter hatred after being attacked by Canoness Dissenta and the Order of the Argent Shroud.

Preferred Enemy: Sisters of Battle.

In Deathwatch there is a Angels Vermillion relic Scorpio's Reget, which is an ornate Chainsword it goes on to say that it is so exquisite because it was master crafted by an Angel Vermillion. But rather than giving the CM a big ol' chainsword perhaps it is better to makesure what weapon he does have are master crafted (after all we don't want to create another Seth clone).

Blood Drinkers

They drink blood ritually, so maybe have the CM (and perhaps any character) that slays an enemy character in close combat must make a leadership test (minus the number of unsaved wounds caused in the final round of combat?) or suffer from blood lust (the old Angels of Death, Mephiston special rule). If he fails the leadership test then he must spend his next turn drinking the opponents blood. May not overwatch, treated as "gone to ground". Maybe if this happens he gets a boon to his stats afterwards?

[ElectricPaladin]

Eh... as you've written Killing Rage, the unit will never have to actually *take* a Morale test because it's Fearless. Might want to word some kind of exception in there.

The WS, S and I all cap out at 10, obviously, but what happens if the unit kills so many things it reduces itself to Ld 0?

I saw that. Actually, I think it was ok because who cares if he frenzies when he's not part of a unit, and joining a non-Fearless unit eliminates your Fearlessness until you leave. I suppose you could nullify the whole situation by having him join a unit that's also Fearless, but that's not so bad. Weaknesses that can be nullified by 300+ points of purchases are already a thing in this game. That said...


Hmm. On the note of Killing Rage, I'd recommend avoiding Leadership/Morale test dependent special rules - morale is one of the most convoluted parts of the rule system, with so many modifiers, odd unit interactions and so forth. Perhaps something along the lines of;

Frenzy: Every time this model destroys another in Close Combat (excluding Sweeping Advances), it gains a Frenzy Token (to a maximum of 5). For each Frenzy Token it possesses, this model gains +1 Attack - however, if any of these additional Attacks fail their To-Hit roll, they are instead allocated to friendly models, as chosen by the opposing player.

This is a far more elegant solution than the one I suggested.

However, I'd make it even simpler: as long as this model has even one Frenzy Token, any attack roll of a 1 is allocated as a hit to friendly models chosen by the opposing player. Make it happen a little less often, but have it effect all dice, and cut down on the bookkeeping (you don't need to roll different color dice for the frenzy attacks, you just need to remember what happens to 1s once he has a single token).

[ElectricPaladin]

So, to review our brainstorms so far:

Angels Vermillion

Blood Drinkers

Some kind of rule around the Chapter Master having to make a Leadership test to resist going to ground for a turn after killing enemies in close combat, but gaining a benefit for the rest of the game. I propose some basic stat increases as well as becoming Fearless. I think it should be a once-per-game thing (ie. lose one round, gain the bonus, don't continue to test for additional lost rounds or bonuses after further kills).

Angels Encarmine

Angels Sanguine Chapter Master (205 Points): Chapter Master statline, Sanguinary Guard Kit, Rage and Feel No Pain, wears a Sanguinary Guard Deathmask which forces his opponents to test Leadership at -1. Say... want to add that squad sergeants can pay 15 points for a Sanguinary Guard Deathmask? We could make an army theme of it. I don't even think we'd need to add much to his points cost because you need to buy the deathmasks on a sergeant-by-sergeant basis. I like the idea that this rule is limited to engagements at which the Chapter Master is present, because only he can authorize weaponizing their hideousness.

Knights of Blood

Some kind of berserker/frenzy rule for the Chapter Master.

[Houghten]

I saw that. Actually, I think it was ok because who cares if he frenzies when he's not part of a unit, and joining a non-Fearless unit eliminates your Fearlessness until you leave.

Huh?

Perhaps you are referring to the rule that says that an independent character does not confer his rules on the unit and vice versa?

He doesn't stop having those rules, though.

And Fearless specifies that a unit need only contain a single Fearless model to be Fearless.

[ElectricPaladin]

Huh?

Perhaps you are referring to the rule that says that an independent character does not confer his rules on the unit and vice versa?

He doesn't stop having those rules, though.

And Fearless specifies that a unit need only contain a single Fearless model to be Fearless.

I thought it was the other way around - the unit still isn't Fearless. It's how Grazkhul Thracka (sp) can run off the field if the Nobs are killed out from around him.

Anyway, I like the other guy's version better than mine, so the point is moot.

[spiralingcadaver]

Curious why Lamenters aren't included (as my personal favorite of the successors).

Pre-Badab, you're looking at a pretty standard BA force, probably low DC count, likely to ally with the "good guys" (IG, nicer Marines) and unlikely to be seen with callous groups (inquisition). Heavy use of airborne vessels, meaning Stormravens, Caestuses (Caesti?), Thunderhawks, etc. and fewer jump troops. Ground support and Sanguinary Guard are also both in low quantities b/c they haven't gotten much influx of gear. Sanguinary Priests (Calix for Lamenters) would probably be a little more common than regular, and Corbulo would be a good proxy character.

Post-Badab, you're looking at low to non-existant scout company, probably a disproportionate amount of veterans (representing a smaller and more experienced group, not an expanded 1st company), more Dreadnoughts, low model count, more death company, dominance of Calix, and depleted vehicle reserves.

Depending on how far you want to go back in time/fluff, they might have a connection to sisters of battle, too.


They also have the chapter master Malakim Phoros from FW, who's got a Glaive Encarmine, Artificer Armor, a meltagun with Pistol, Rage when wounded, and Hatred. Seems like those stats could reasonably represent other BA chapter Masters, too. He could be included in either iteration above, since his death is specifically unconfirmed at the end of the Badab War.

[ElectricPaladin]

Curious why Lamenters aren't included (as my personal favorite of the successors).

Pre-Badab, you're looking at a pretty standard BA force, probably low DC count, likely to ally with the "good guys" (IG, nicer Marines) and unlikely to be seen with callous groups (inquisition). Heavy use of airborne vessels, meaning Stormravens, Caestuses (Caesti?), Thunderhawks, etc. and fewer jump troops. Ground support and Sanguinary Guard are also both in low quantities b/c they haven't gotten much influx of gear. Sanguinary Priests (Calix for Lamenters) would probably be a little more common than regular, and Corbulo would be a good proxy character.

Post-Badab, you're looking at low to non-existant scout company, probably a disproportionate amount of veterans (representing a smaller and more experienced group, not an expanded 1st company), more Dreadnoughts, low model count, more death company, dominance of Calix, and depleted vehicle reserves.

Depending on how far you want to go back in time/fluff, they might have a connection to sisters of battle, too.


They also have the chapter master Malakim Phoros from FW, who's got a Glaive Encarmine, Artificer Armor, a meltagun with Pistol, Rage when wounded, and Hatred. Seems like those stats could reasonably represent other BA chapter Masters, too. He could be included in either iteration above, since his death is specifically unconfirmed at the end of the Badab War.

Because I don't have access to the Badab War books, and their chapter master is already created, so we don't need to make him.

[Houghten]

I thought it was the other way around - the unit still isn't Fearless. It's how Grazkhul Thracka (sp) can run off the field if the Nobs are killed out from around him.

Anyway, I like the other guy's version better than mine, so the point is moot.

Off-topic, perhaps, but I'm going to keep at it. I'd feel all guilty if you ran into a one-Fearless-model situation and played it wrong.

Fearless is worded almost exactly the same way as Stubborn - one says "a unit that contains at least one model with" and the other says "units containing one or more models with" - and Stubborn is specifically given as an example of a rule that a character can confer on a unit (or vice versa).

Ghazghkull is a special case who only gets Fearless conferred by the Mob Rule, which is conditional upon there being 11+ models in the unit.

[ElectricPaladin]

Off-topic, perhaps, but I'm going to keep at it. I'd feel all guilty if you ran into a one-Fearless-model situation and played it wrong.

Fearless is worded almost exactly the same way as Stubborn - one says "a unit that contains at least one model with" and the other says "units containing one or more models with" - and Stubborn is specifically given as an example of a rule that a character can confer on a unit (or vice versa).

Ghazghkull is a special case who only gets Fearless conferred by the Mob Rule, which is conditional upon there being 11+ models in the unit.

I sit corrected. Thank you.

[spiralingcadaver]

Because I don't have access to the Badab War books, and their chapter master is already created, so we don't need to make him.

Oh, well, other than the character, there's nothing about their structure/army other than some fluff I extrapolated from... and thought you were presenting comparison points for proxying etc?

[ElectricPaladin]

Oh, well, other than the character, there's nothing about their structure/army other than some fluff I extrapolated from... and thought you were presenting comparison points for proxying etc?

I was. You can post him if you've got him.

[Houghten]

His 6th Edition rules (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/badabupdate-v2.pdf) are free!

He's got:
your standard WS6, BS5, S4, T4, W3, I5, A4, Ld10, Sv2+/4++,
a weapon called the Glaive Encarmine that is confusingly different from the Sanguinary Guard weapon of the same name (+1S on the charge, AP3 at all times, master-crafted, two-handed),
a melta pistol with double range (since his glaive is two-handed this is no different from a meltagun, so I don't know why they bothered),
grenades,
Zealot,
Red Thirst,
gets nastier if he loses a Wound (+1S, +1A, Rage and confers that Rage to his unit),
must always be your Warlord,
and his Warlord trait grants Blood Angels within 6" Hatred.

[mikeramos]

Sorry if this is off subject but do u thing that if/when they update the blood angels codex "actual 6th ed. Hard back Not an FAQ update""saw that one coming" they will get something similar to vanilla marines. Having to choose a chapter tactic based around successor chapters, I think it would be a great idea

[Wolfshade]

In the forgeworld chapter tactics (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/FWchaptertactics-v2.pdf) it says that the lamenters just follow the standard BA rules, so I am not sure.

[mikeramos]

Yes true, but that doesn't mean it can't be changed cause if theirs one thing gw or FW are great at it's constantly changing lol

[Wolfshade]

Oh I know :) I was looking through those other FW chapter tactics thinking could these be changed to meet a sucessor.

[ElectricPaladin]

I... hope we get some love for successors in the codex, but I don't expect it. We've already seen one chapter-specific codex - the Dark Angels codex - and they didn't pay any particular attention to their successors, except for the typical paint guides and fluff blurbs. With that as our model, I wouldn't count on getting anything more. The only reasons Codex Space (Ultra)Marines got all that stuff on various successors was because so many people use that codex to represent one of a huge number of less famous chapters, and they wanted to provide resources for that kind of play. Most Blood Angels players play... Blood Angels. Those few of us who play successors, well, we're pretty content with Blood Angels rules, because they're already stylish and apropos to the army we want to play.

Personally, I would be content with the option to take a "generic" chapter Master so I could pick a favorite build for the Master of the Knights of Blood. That single addition would be a great nod to those of us who play successors: "here's Dante, and here's Seth, and here's a page number reference for the master of the Lamenters (go buy a book, *hint hint*), and here's how to build your own chapter master if you want to play Knights of Blood or Angels Sanguine or whatever."