1500 Knights of Blood (BA Codex)

[ElectricPaladin]

I don't know what's up with this list. It started off as "what models have I got painted and what upgrades should I take to make it 1.5k for campaign night?" but damn, if it isn't kicking all kinds of ***. I have won two games in a row with this list. Both were long, brutal games in which I all but tabled my opponent. In the end, I won in the exact same way each time, which I think indicates that the list is doing its job.

Anyway, here it goes:

HQ
• Captain w/Power Fist, Lightning Claw

Elites
• 5 Assault Terminators w/Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
• Furioso Dreadnought w/Heavy Flamer, Magna Grapple
• 2 Sanguinary Priests (1 Jump, 1 Foot) w/Bolt Pistol and Chainsword

Troops
• 10 Assault Marines (Jump) w/2 Flamers, Sergeant w/Power Lance & Hand Flamer
• 10 Death Company (Jump) w/Power Fist & 2 Hand Flamers

Heavy Support
• Stormraven w/Extra Armor, Lascannons & Typhoon Launcher

So far, in both games it's gone like this: I've deployed my two jump squads and kept everything else in reserve, riding in the stormraven. My opponent has been forced to react to the two squads in play, because they each represent a different kind of threat: the assault marines can quickly get into position to threaten one (or more, if combat squadded) objectives, while the death company is quite durable and can easily make their points back by slaughtering your expensive hammer units. This puts my opponent on his back foot from turn one, which gives me time to get my stormraven into play. While the stormraven itself pours missiles and lasers into whatever could threaten it, it gets into position to hover and drop out the deadly cargo of hammernators. Army-wide Feel No Pain and 3+ saves means that I rarely lose my two throw-away squads until I'm ready to.

Both games have ended the same way: both of my jump squads dead, my opponent all but tabled, his ability to hold objectives completely destroyed, my hammernators and captain in his backfield. I win with no objectives claimed, but 3 VPs - Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord, and First Blood - to his zero.

I don't claim any credit for this list. Like I said, it was just a matter of "what have I got painted?" Nevertheless, I'd love questions and comments, and if anyone else wanted to take something like this out for a spin and let me know what they think, I'd be interested to read it.

[Blood Shadow]

Can you tell us which armies your two games were against? What AA did they have?

I like the unusual choice of a Cpt with PF and LC, that's interesting....twin L/C and melta bombs would seem slightly better to me, or take a Recclusiarch with JP and PF instead as he has greater synergies with the DC.

How would you handle Land Raiders or Leman Russ?

I've found that DC in a Storm Raven with a Reccl or Chappy are amazing at 1500, but then so are many other high priced cc units....if your opponent has anything like a Vendetta squadron the Storm Raven may not be around for too long.

I'd also consider getting the Dread a Drop Pod, nothing takes the attention off your back field than a Furioso Dred on your door step, I give mine the Frag launcher too, giving it the added advantage of throwing up wall of death to any counter charges....

[Anggul]

I like the unusual choice of a Cpt with PF and LC, that's interesting....twin L/C and melta bombs would seem slightly better to me, or take a Recclusiarch with JP and PF instead as he has greater synergies with the DC.

It isn't unusual, Power Fist+Lightning Claw is a very common combat character combination in 6th edition as specialist weapons of any kind can be paired for +1 attack. There's no point in dual Lightning Claws any more when for 10pts more you can have the same number of attacks but have the choice between high Initiative Shred AP3 or Unwieldy 2x Strength AP2.

I'm not sure how well it would handle heavy armour either, you don't want to be wasting your guys punching vehicles (and this wouldn't even work on a Land Raider) as you have a low unit count, so they all want to be doing significant damage every turn. Some dedicated Melta would be good. Land Raiders aren't great and aren't very widely used, but if you did come up against one you would have a very hard time dealing with it.

[Aegwymourn]

I'm not sure how well it would handle heavy armour either, you don't want to be wasting your guys punching vehicles (and this wouldn't even work on a Land Raider) as you have a low unit count, so they all want to be doing significant damage every turn. Some dedicated Melta would be good. Land Raiders aren't great and aren't very widely used, but if you did come up against one you would have a very hard time dealing with it.

Since they are BA they have FC on the assault? So those hammernators are str 9 ap2? Generally with enough attacks to even threaten LR would be my guess.

[ElectricPaladin]

Since they are BA they have FC on the assault? So those hammernators are str 9 ap2? Generally with enough attacks to even threaten LR would be my guess.

Yep. They're like little lascannons. 19 of them with a full squad on the charge. The army-wide Furious Charge isn't quite as much of an asset as the army-wide Feel No Pain, but it doesn't hurt any, either. Anyway, I have not yet had to try to punch through a Land Raider or Necron Monolith, so in all my punching fights I have enjoyed the benefit of glancing on 1s with my Strength 9 hammer attacks. That said, I agree that with 19 attacks against a land raider, I am not too concerned about failing to crack it open. On the other hand, I would hate to have to do that, because then I would get charged by whatever is inside the land raider. Necron monoliths would be even worse, because if I'm not locked in combat, I'm going to get shot at by everything else in the board. Luckily, Tau transports will usually fall to concerted las fire.

I do agree, though, that serious AV will be a hindrance to this list and will require me to play very tactically and get lucky with las and missile fire from the stormraven, or a sacrifice strike from the dreadnought. In a larger version of the same list, I think that I would probably back up what I've already got with a melta-heavy bike squad and/or some lascannon-toting devastators.

Anyway, on to your questions: part of why I think I might be on to something here is that my two victories have been against radically different armies. The first game was against a middle-of-the-ground 'Nid list that included some big bugs, some swarms of little bugs, and a huge number of scoring vectors (five, I think). My second victory was against a very standard mechanized Tau list that included some pathfinders, Aun'Shi and some fire warriors, some other fire warriors (both in devilfishes), a hammerhead, and a riptide, all supported by a huge beefy Kroot squad and some Tetras.

Given that I was able to win with the same strategy against both lists, I'm not sure what sort of army should scare me, except for the usual stuff that scares Space Marines (ie. high volume or blasts with Strength 8+ and AP 3-, opponents with WAY better Initiative scores than me). I guess the one thing I really don't want to see is that Dark Eldar character - the Baron, I think? - the one who is a Fearless super-elite melee solo who can easily go back and forth between running with a cloud of ablative wounds and separating to maintain his Fearlessness and tanking my entire army. I would need to try to whittle down his support and try to kill him with shooting once he's caught in the open.

[Blood Shadow]

It isn't unusual, Power Fist+Lightning Claw is a very common combat character combination in 6th edition as specialist weapons of any kind can be paired for +1 attack. There's no point in dual Lightning Claws any more when for 10pts more you can have the same number of attacks but have the choice between high Initiative Shred AP3 or Unwieldy 2x Strength AP2.


How did I miss this???!

[ElectricPaladin]

How did I miss this???!

And the tactical potential is awesome! I love having the option to go into infantry-clearing mode versus anything I'm faster than, or heavy-hitting mode against vehicles or anything that out-Initiatives me anyway. It's so much fun!

[Blood Shadow]

And the tactical potential is awesome! I love having the option to go into infantry-clearing mode versus anything I'm faster than, or heavy-hitting mode against vehicles or anything that out-Initiatives me anyway. It's so much fun!

So a Recclusiarch with powerfist sounds like a better option then for similar points but more buffs

[ElectricPaladin]

So a Recclusiarch with powerfist sounds like a better option then for similar points but more buffs

Two problems:
1) Croziuses (crozii?) are actually kind of lousy now. It's just a power maul: S+1/AP 4 Concussive. It doesn't have the Specialist Weapon USR, so it can't give the power fist an extra attack, and vice versa.
2) The Shred USR on the lightning claw (remember, you don't need to dual wield them to get that benefit anymore) is pretty awesome, especially with the number of attacks a charging captain with +1 Attack can deliver (the answer is 5, by the way).
3) Captains have one point better WS. Doesn't always matter, but when it does...
4) Points cost. This captain is 140 points. The reclusiarch you are suggesting would cost 145 points. It's five points... but more importantly, I bet that Blood Angels captains will see the same drop in points cost as vanilla Space Marine captains (and I doubt Reclusiarchs will get the same treatment - or if they do, it will be to a lesser degree). That will bring the captain version down to the 100ish points level.

Overall, the reclusiarch version is 5 points more expensive. The plusses are that he buffs his unit - a not inconsiderable bonus, I will admit. The negatives are that when he isn't using his power fist, he's using a categorically crappy weapon that lacks the Shred USR, and he has one point less WS.

I think the captain is better unit.

Don't get me wrong - I'd love to own a chaplain/reclusiarch model with a power fist someday, just for kicks... but honestly, I'd rather field a cheap chaplain with a Death Company squad and put the power fist on one of them instead.

[Houghten]

1) Croziuses (crozii?) are actually kind of lousy now. It's just a power maul: S+1/AP 4 Concussive.

Does power mauls actually being S+2 improve them in your eyes at all?

[ElectricPaladin]

Does power mauls actually being S+2 improve them in your eyes at all?

Good point.

Hm.... Strength 6, Strength 7 on the charge? That's not bad.

The thing is that if you already have a power fist in the equation, you've got your high strength covered (as long as you're willing to strike last). There's not a lot that Strength 9 on the charge won't kill, and you have five ablative 2+/3++/5+ FNP ablative bodies around you to soak up attacks if you do go last...

The question I have is this: are there any opponents against which Strength 7 AP 4 Initiative 5 is better than Strength 5 AP 3 Initiative 5 with Shred, but not better than Strength 9 AP 2 at Initiative 1? While the crozius has a better Strength, I feel like the claw makes a better "little gun" in contrast to the fist's "big gun" status. Not that the claw is categorically a better weapon - I suspect they might be, though it is fun to see a Space Marine punching at monstrous creature levels of punchitude - but that it better compliments the fist.

[Tynskel]

Yeah, Lemartes becomes redonkulous when he loses a wound. He becomes strength 8 (str 5 + 2 maul +1 FC) on the charge at 8 attacks (1 for two cc weapons, 5 attacks, +2 rage).

[Blood Shadow]

Regardless of the maul vs. LC I think the boon of a Chaplain is the effect he has on his squad, DC rerolling to hit and wound is way more dangerous than a couple of AP3 attacks, the fact he has a Str 6 weapon AP4 weapon isn't the main selling point.

You're trading rerolls on the captain for rerolls to hit and wound on the entire squad......Lemartes is just crazy good in this instance if only he was a HQ...

[ElectricPaladin]

Well, don't forget that we're talking about accompaniment for a terminator squad. While you could easily scrap the whole thing for some number of death company marines in the stormraven, with a chaplain, I think they'd lack the durability of the terminator squad, which is part of this list's appeal. 2+/3++/5+ FNP is more durable than 3+/5+ FNP. Death company isn't really any cheaper than terminators.

I agree that the accompaniment for death company is a reclusiarch. I'm not sure that the same is true for a terminator squad.

[Blood Shadow]

Hmmm I'd have said that rerolls to hit on the charge for a 3A TH/SS Termie would be very useful especially against high WS units or MC...I've always found that if TH/SS don't wipe out whatever they charge they can become bogged down vs anything WS4 or higher....a squad of 5 on the charge may only hit with half of their 15x Str9 A...(not including the Cpt or Recc). If you consider the Recc at WS5 with a reroll, I think it's more than equal to a Cpt with +1WS and rerolls to wound.

A 2nd squad of 5 DC whilst not being as durable works out cheaper yet still being a beastly attention grabing unit, you can get THs and extra wounds for the same cost as the Termies and get rerolls to hit and wound delivering way more As and saving points on not needing priest (unless you feel the need to have the Recc with f'n'p...With Jump packs they come in at similar costs but can shoot bolters, +DoA and are way more mobile all round.

It's personal choice I guess, not saying that a 3++ isn't great for me I'd prefer extra W's and A's for a lower cost

[Angelofblades]

The question I have is this: are there any opponents against which Strength 7 AP 4 Initiative 5 is better than Strength 5 AP 3 Initiative 5 with Shred, but not better than Strength 9 AP 2 at Initiative 1? While the crozius has a better Strength, I feel like the claw makes a better "little gun" in contrast to the fist's "big gun" status. Not that the claw is categorically a better weapon - I suspect they might be, though it is fun to see a Space Marine punching at monstrous creature levels of punchitude - but that it better compliments the fist.

How did you get an extra point on Initiative? No more Initiative bonus from Furious Charge.

[ElectricPaladin]

How did you get an extra point on Initiative? No more Initiative bonus from Furious Charge.

Captains have I 5.

[Angelofblades]

Captains have I 5.

Ahh...for some reason I was thinking rank and file troops.

[World Of Pain]

Hi! Love this list. One thing I would change is that Assault Squad Sergeant. I would try to find enough points for that BA unique Power Fist + Storm Shield combo. That combo makes even toughest HQ IC enemies thinking twice before accepting challenge from you! S8 (S9 whit Furiour Charge) AP2 attacks and 3+ INV Save is nasty. Also when you place your sergeant tacticaly right you can use "Look out Sir!" rule to pass some of those lighter wounds on your squad and then taking that AP3 or AP2 hit on you. Shield pays it self back really fast when you need to take some fire on open ground. Its only 20 points for Assault Squad Sergeant so if it saves even one AP3 or AP2 wound it has allready become cost effective - usually it saves 3 - 4. 3 Assault troops without any special weapons is allready 54 points.

Maby you would like to give us your idea for 1750 and 2000 point lists?

[Anggul]

Another issue with the Reclusiarch is that because a Power Maul isn't a Specialist Weapon they get one less attack. I would probably just stick with Crozius/Bolt Pistol and kill through weight of wounds. The main thing is giving the unit Hatred to smash the enemy, and it's just hilarious with Death Company. Charging Death Company will kill almost anything in the game. Charging Death Company with re-rolls to hit and wound are true death incarnate.

Basically the Chaplain can just decline any challenges and let his squad mash whoever tried to challenge with their re-rolls.