GW Love/Hate

[Grimwaldo]

Recently I was reading a forum called where is the love? It stated (in a nut shell) that we love GW products however hated the company, why was this the situation? After reading the comments I have come to the conclusion that we love GW products however hate the company because GW does not listen to their community.
I had been buying and playing GW games for over 26 years when I first came across the Warhammer 40k rouge trader. I loved it from the get go. I like the space opera grimdark and all it had to offer.
Now I am selling everything that I have collected over that period of time and am turning my back to the company. Why?GW could not care less about their community or what we have to say about the game.
I have played multiple systems from warmahoards to dystopian wars and have found that both Privateer Press and Spartan games are much more receptive to there community. They both have open betas and welcome input and will change rule sets based upon community input.
GW on the other hand keeps their community at arms length and treats their rule sets like state secrets. This has harmed them in many ways. GW does not understand the community and cannot know what they want. If they were to ask for the community to participate in rules testing and input, then they could produce a line of models that people would be excited about. This would also spread the word about fantastic new product and how it would work in your army.
People would PRE-order modles they were excited about! This would Tell GW what kinds of product people want and also let then know what models to produce more of so that they can keep sales up. Most major corporations already do this to try and meet future demands and reduce wasted time and effort into things that people do not want or very few people will buy.
On a second note asking the community for input creates a feeling of ownership which makes people feel loyal to your product, gives ownership and generates excitement as well as brand loyalty.
GW only wants your money. From what I have experienced in GW stores and seen on forms they could not give a rip about what you think about rules, competaive game play or what direction you would like to see the game go.
I at one point loved the game and the flavor and rode it out though good times and bad. Now I see though the recent massive publications of both print and online media as a cash grab to prop up flagging sales without any kind regard for the community.
Common GW you can do better than this. Ask the community what they want vs shoving things we never asked for down our throats.

[Pssyche]

Don't you just love it when somebody starts a new account, with an apropos name, just in order to launch a diatribe?

Happy First Post Grimwaldo!

[Grimwaldo]

Eh gotta start somewhere.

[Chris Copeland]

I like GW. I dig their games. I love their sculpts. I love what they do for this hobby. I feel I get an excellent value for my hard earned dollar. I guess I just don't see where you are coming from, Grimwaldo... cheers... Cope

[Wolfshade]

Oh no! A company doesn't work the way I wish it did oh noes!

GW does care about their community, or customers as they call them. After all, if they didn't have customers then they wouldn't sell their stuff.

As for not getting excited about new models? Really, who doesn't get excited by them, one only has to look ath the number of hits the blurry wip shot threads get, or sneak peaks else where.

[Mr Mystery]

GW.....provides rules, models, a place to play for many (their own stores) people specifically trained to help you get the most out of your chosen hobby (staff members), and their own tournaments held in a themed venue (Warhammer World). They even have a themed pub! If I buy a kit, and it's miscast or has a bit missing, round to the store, replacement sorted out there and then. Had a wonky print of the Lizardman book. Replaced there and then, no questions asked, no quibbling, no filling out forms etc. THAT is customer service. THAT is giving a fig about the people who are buying your not inexpensive product. GW more than any other wargames company seek out the new market. They open stores, they accept the risk of that. They're expanding globally, seeking new veins of would-be gamers. You can tell they're successful because parasites like Chapterhouse have sprung up, desperate to suckle at the teat of another's creativity.

PP....erm.....erm.....they sell models and rules? But other than that, do nothing to actively engage with me, their non-player. Unless it's through an Indy store, which even then, isn't actually them doing it directly. They have aimed their game at the competitive market, which drives me away more than my general dislike of steampunk. I have tried the game, and frankly it bored me rigid. No story. No narrative. Barely a background. Every game felt the same...can I kill your caster before you kill mine?

Infinity....erm.....erm......they sell models and rules?

As for demands to make the game competitive.....why? Do you expect every make and model of car to be suitable for street racing, without any end user modifications? No? Fancy that! Horses for courses. GW have set out to design a narrative wargame, including masses of different missions, and a lot of background to help set the scene for our own personal glory in the Old World or the 41st Milennium. They don't want to make this a highly competitive, tournament driven game. And given that only a minority of gamer actually partake in these events, I'd say they've made the right call.

And you say GW don't understand their market? I'd say it's very much the reverse their chum.

[Pssyche]

Spot on, Mr. Mystery.

[Denzark]

GW.....provides rules, models, a place to play for many (their own stores) people specifically trained to help you get the most out of your chosen hobby (staff members), and their own tournaments held in a themed venue (Warhammer World). They even have a themed pub! If I buy a kit, and it's miscast or has a bit missing, round to the store, replacement sorted out there and then. Had a wonky print of the Lizardman book. Replaced there and then, no questions asked, no quibbling, no filling out forms etc. THAT is customer service. THAT is giving a fig about the people who are buying your not inexpensive product. GW more than any other wargames company seek out the new market. They open stores, they accept the risk of that. They're expanding globally, seeking new veins of would-be gamers. You can tell they're successful because parasites like Chapterhouse have sprung up, desperate to suckle at the teat of another's creativity.

PP....erm.....erm.....they sell models and rules? But other than that, do nothing to actively engage with me, their non-player. Unless it's through an Indy store, which even then, isn't actually them doing it directly. They have aimed their game at the competitive market, which drives me away more than my general dislike of steampunk. I have tried the game, and frankly it bored me rigid. No story. No narrative. Barely a background. Every game felt the same...can I kill your caster before you kill mine?

Infinity....erm.....erm......they sell models and rules?

As for demands to make the game competitive.....why? Do you expect every make and model of car to be suitable for street racing, without any end user modifications? No? Fancy that! Horses for courses. GW have set out to design a narrative wargame, including masses of different missions, and a lot of background to help set the scene for our own personal glory in the Old World or the 41st Milennium. They don't want to make this a highly competitive, tournament driven game. And given that only a minority of gamer actually partake in these events, I'd say they've made the right call.

And you say GW don't understand their market? I'd say it's very much the reverse their chum.

One of the best descriptions of the situation...

[DarkLink]

GW.....provides rules, models, a place to play for many (their own stores) people specifically trained to help you get the most out of your chosen hobby (staff members), and their own tournaments held in a themed venue (Warhammer World). They even have a themed pub! If I buy a kit, and it's miscast or has a bit missing, round to the store, replacement sorted out there and then. Had a wonky print of the Lizardman book. Replaced there and then, no questions asked, no quibbling, no filling out forms etc. THAT is customer service. THAT is giving a fig about the people who are buying your not inexpensive product. GW more than any other wargames company seek out the new market. They open stores, they accept the risk of that. They're expanding globally, seeking new veins of would-be gamers.


GW doesn't do **** to promote their hobby, beyond releasing WD. If you think having a couple of GW only stores in the UK does anything to promote customers, well... anywhere else in the entire world, you're wrong. I only know what Warhammer World is. I know that GW supposedly has some stores, somewhere, but I've never actually seen one. I've only ever seen any GW products through third parties like flgs and websites like BOLS, yet GW actively persecutes these places.

You might happen to live in the one place in the world where GW actually does stuff, but if you move literally anywhere else, you're out of luck.



You can tell they're successful because parasites like Chapterhouse have sprung up, desperate to suckle at the teat of another's creativity.

I'd just like to point out that your beloved fluff is pretty blatantly ripped off of other, earlier sources. Mostly Dune, with some Starship Troopers and a few other things mixed in. But virtually nothing in 40k is original, and it's not just taken from other sources in the 'inspired by' sense, it's taken from other sources in the 'well, we call our galaxy spanning empire the Imperium instead' sort of way.



PP....erm.....erm.....they sell models and rules? But other than that, do nothing to actively engage with me, their non-player. Unless it's through an Indy store, which even then, isn't actually them doing it directly. They have aimed their game at the competitive market, which drives me away more than my general dislike of steampunk. I have tried the game, and frankly it bored me rigid. No story. No narrative. Barely a background. Every game felt the same...can I kill your caster before you kill mine?

PP does infinitely more to promote its community than I've ever seen GW do. You've also obviously never played any scenario games, and you also seem to be mistaking your dislike of steampunk for an actual valid argument to a lack of quality of their setting. While you might not like the general way in which Warmahordes plays, you also cannot take more than cursory glance at their rules compared to GWs and immediately see that PP actually gives a damn about the quality of their rules, while GW doesn't.

Plus, if you're going to compare to GW, no **** they're small and don't have as much fluff. GW has something like 2000 employees worldwide, and has been around for 30 years. PP has been around for about a decade, and might have 100 employees.

But as I mentioned, PP also openly promotes gaming events of all types all across the US.



Infinity....erm.....erm......they sell models and rules?

They're a very small company. I've got an army coming in the mail, we'll see how the game plays. It seems like a lot of fun, and far, far, far more tactical and/or strategic than 40k. Plus? Bought an entire army for a hundred bucks, plus shipping.



As for demands to make the game competitive.....why?

Because that's what a huge percentage of their market asks for. It's not about being competitive. It's about having well balanced, well written rules that aren't full of idiocy and rage-inducing loopholes. Which is not what GW provides.



GW have set out to design a narrative wargame, including masses of different missions, and a lot of background to help set the scene for our own personal glory in the Old World or the 41st Milennium. They don't want to make this a highly competitive, tournament driven game. And given that only a minority of gamer actually partake in these events, I'd say they've made the right call.

So, what, they're intentionally making ****ty rules? Because I can't remember the last time I've seen anyone play any expansions or any missions outside of the standard 6, except when a tournament makes up its own missions. Heck, PP does a better job forging a rock hard narrative than GW does with its Tier lists, where it actually lays out what you can and can't take if you want to make use of some character's fluff. Compared to GW, and every DA army is Deathwing, half the GK armies are either Purifier Spam or Draigo and friends, and so on.



And you say GW don't understand their market? I'd say it's very much the reverse their chum.

And I know you've got a raging GW apologist boner going on, and a massive hate-on for anything not 40k, but that doesn't mean that all the reasons why a lot of people don't like certain things about GW magically go away. I like 40k, I like the overall way the game plays, I like the models and most of the armies, I like how easy it is to get a game, but GW has never done anything for me than produce models and print rules that were half fun, half facepalming stupidity. I like Warmahordes and how well written the rules are and how PP actually cares about their rules and their customers and about holding events to promote the game. Infinity seems the same way so far, too.

Plus, while GW takes some undeserved flak for their business practices from armchair economists, GW does have a number of business practices that several real-life business guys who I know have managed companies/divisions that make GW looks like a mom and pop business scratch their head at. And if their revenue shortfalls continue, they're going to need to revamp their business plan.

[Denzark]

GW doesn't do **** to promote their hobby, beyond releasing WD. If you think having a couple of GW only stores in the UK does anything to promote customers, well... anywhere else in the entire world, you're wrong. I only know what Warhammer World is. I know that GW supposedly has some stores, somewhere, but I've never actually seen one. I've only ever seen any GW products through third parties like flgs and websites like BOLS, yet GW actively persecutes these places.

If you managed to get into the hobby without anything beyond WD, and never saw a store, does that not imply they have a sufficient level of promotion - it hooked you in?

You might happen to live in the one place in the world where GW actually does stuff, but if you move literally anywhere else, you're out of luck.



I'd just like to point out that your beloved fluff is pretty blatantly ripped off of other, earlier sources. Mostly Dune, with some Starship Troopers and a few other things mixed in. But virtually nothing in 40k is original, and it's not just taken from other sources in the 'inspired by' sense, it's taken from other sources in the 'well, we call our galaxy spanning empire the Imperium instead' sort of way.

GW fluff is indeed heavily inspired by all sorts of sources, even rips off some. If you read Rogue Trader, they explain that there was a lot of images of conversions and stuff based on other companies kits, toys etc. So as not to breach IP of other people, they changed to the B&W pictures all the way through. CHS deliberately went out to copy not the fluff, but the actual products. It doesn't even have its own fluff or fluff masquerading as original but actually ripped off - it just has copies of stuff GW designed. There is a subtle difference.



PP does infinitely more to promote its community than I've ever seen GW do. You've also obviously never played any scenario games, and you also seem to be mistaking your dislike of steampunk for an actual valid argument to a lack of quality of their setting. While you might not like the general way in which Warmahordes plays, you also cannot take more than cursory glance at their rules compared to GWs and immediately see that PP actually gives a damn about the quality of their rules, while GW doesn't.

Plus, if you're going to compare to GW, no **** they're small and don't have as much fluff. GW has something like 2000 employees worldwide, and has been around for 30 years. PP has been around for about a decade, and might have 100 employees.

But as I mentioned, PP also openly promotes gaming events of all types all across the US.

I have never seen PP do anything in the UK. Even the indy tournaments and shows I have been to, which don't have GW input, don't have PP input. I reckon this is simply a US/UK difference.



Because that's what a huge percentage of their market asks for. It's not about being competitive. It's about having well balanced, well written rules that aren't full of idiocy and rage-inducing loopholes. Which is not what GW provides.

If we all know the rules are so bad, why do this huge percentage of their market persist? Its like saying to your Ford Dealer thanks for that, I'd prefer it if you made a Nissan Qashqai instead of a Mondeo.



So, what, they're intentionally making ****ty rules? Because I can't remember the last time I've seen anyone play any expansions or any missions outside of the standard 6, except when a tournament makes up its own missions. Heck, PP does a better job forging a rock hard narrative than GW does with its Tier lists, where it actually lays out what you can and can't take if you want to make use of some character's fluff. Compared to GW, and every DA army is Deathwing, half the GK armies are either Purifier Spam or Draigo and friends, and so on.

You must play some dull matches - I play about 30% battle missions, 20% DLC missions, special missions as found in things like my Black Legion Codex. I have played the odd scenario from the tourney scene and found them overly convoluted and complicated with tertiary objectives.



Plus, while GW takes some undeserved flak for their business practices from armchair economists, GW does have a number of business practices that several real-life business guys who I know have managed companies/divisions that make GW looks like a mom and pop business scratch their head at. And if their revenue shortfalls continue, they're going to need to revamp their business plan.

The proof will be in the pudding - if this UK company with a legal mandate to operate responsibly on behalf of the shareholders, thinks their current business plan is unsustainable, they will change it. If they don't it implies it is working sufficiently well to allow them to discharge their duty of care to the shareholders.

Chill Winston.

[DarkLink]

I got in to the hobby because a couple of friends were playing it. GW gets a lot of free marketing from its community. That's a good thing. That's not the problem.

The problem is that GW doesn't acknowledge how much it benefits from this, nor promotes it. It used to hold events, give out prize support, things like that. Now, it doesn't, and I've seen people steadily move to other gaming systems. There are still plenty of 40k players, but there's actual, real competition out there now. Not that GW has to start spending significant amounts of money on anything, but going back to the time where they actually promoted the community in some, or any, way would be nice.



GW fluff is indeed heavily inspired by all sorts of sources, even rips off some. If you read Rogue Trader, they explain that there was a lot of images of conversions and stuff based on other companies kits, toys etc. So as not to breach IP of other people, they changed to the B&W pictures all the way through. CHS deliberately went out to copy not the fluff, but the actual products. It doesn't even have its own fluff or fluff masquerading as original but actually ripped off - it just has copies of stuff GW designed. There is a subtle difference.

I'm not defending Chapterhouse, I'm just saying you probably shouldn't criticize CH while holding up GW's fluff as some sort of holy paragon. At least not in the same sentence, anyways.

Mr. Mystery basically said "GW's fluff is really big, and everyone else's is small, so everyone else's sucks", which is a pretty injust representation of the situation.


I have never seen PP do anything in the UK. Even the indy tournaments and shows I have been to, which don't have GW input, don't have PP input. I reckon this is simply a US/UK difference.

Right. PP is an American company, and much smaller than GW. Its reach does not extend nearly as far as GW's does. But considering that GW is the big dog, why doesn't GW do anything for anyone in the US? PP's got a good excuse, they're just not big enough of a company to reach far outside the US right now. But within their sphere of influence, they do a ton of stuff to drive their community. And even outside the US, if you go on PP's forums, you can talk directly with the game developers and get questions answered and the like. GW might have good customer service with their models, but when it comes to rules, you'll be lucky if they bother to respond to a question, let alone give you a real answer.


If we all know the rules are so bad, why do this huge percentage of their market persist? Its like saying to your Ford Dealer thanks for that, I'd prefer it if you made a Nissan Qashqai instead of a Mondeo.

Momentum and models. Everyone plays 40k because 40k's what's always been played, because until the last few years what other real options were there? 40k is still fun overall. And it has a huge range of models to pick from.

But, frankly, it's more akin to saying to your Ford Dealer "hey, why does my truck break down every other week, while my Toyota's at 150,000 miles and I've never had to do anything more than change the oil and get a routine check-up?"


You must play some dull matches - I play about 30% battle missions, 20% DLC missions, special missions as found in things like my Black Legion Codex. I have played the odd scenario from the tourney scene and found them overly convoluted and complicated with tertiary objectives.

Not really. It's just, literally no one plays any of the expansions. Whenever a new book comes out, there'll be a couple of games to try them out, but then we go straight back to playing standard missions. It's been like that in every community I've every played in, and right now I'm lucky enough to play in what's quite possibly one of the largest 40k communities in the US, if not the world.


The proof will be in the pudding - if this UK company with a legal mandate to operate responsibly on behalf of the shareholders, thinks their current business plan is unsustainable, they will change it. If they don't it implies it is working sufficiently well to allow them to discharge their duty of care to the shareholders.


The problem is, they have to actually be able to identify their problems and work to solve them. They haven't been inspiring much confidence in that ability as of the last few years. It remains to be seen if that's a problem, but this definitely seems to be a situation where they could easily shoot themselves in the foot if they're not careful. If fixing fundamental business problems were as easy as "abrakadaba", then no one would ever go out of business. Not that I expect GW to go out of business anytime soon, but that's not the point.




Chill Winston.

I'm not mad, Mr. Mystery just posited some opinions that I found to be bull****. He was openly dismissive of a number of alternative, high quality games out there, spoke of anyone who did anything other than pure beer and pretzels gaming derisively, and handwaved some of GW's blatantly obvious issues as irrelevant. The first is narrow-minded, the second is outright insulting to me, and the third is highly subjective considering that we don't have a lot of information to work off of. I don't think any less of him for having an opinion, nor am I mad about it, but if I think something's bull**** then I'm going to call it bull****.

And it's all a matter of degrees. PP's rules are objectively better than GW's. You might not like the way Warmahordes plays (I personally prefer the scale of 40k a little more), but their rules are far better balanced, far better written, much more easily understandable, and accomplishes significantly more tactical depth with far fewer convoluted, contrived, and loophole-ridden rules than GW does. But 40k is still a lot of fun. I still like 40k, and I'm not planning on abandoning it anytime soon.

[Denzark]

That's fair enough - I'm glad you're not on the way out.

[DarkLink]

No, in fact I'm starting a Khorne Berzerker/pseudo preheresy army.

I mentioned this in another thread; I like how Reece put it. Wargames have three pillars, good models, good community, and good rules. GW has the first two down, though they could do a little more community building. But they don't take their rules seriously, and it hurts them. They get by dispite their rules, when their rules could be another strength. That's my complaint with GW. Because while they may be a models company, their rules are what sells most of their models.

[Wolfshade]

But do they need to? This is a good community, ok it is online, my gaming group is another one. If you can get people to invest into then they will become the new acolytes.

[Deadlift]

No, in fact I'm starting a Khorne Berzerker/pseudo preheresy army.

I mentioned this in another thread; I like how Reece put it. Wargames have three pillars, good models, good community, and good rules. GW has the first two down, though they could do a little more community building. But they don't take their rules seriously, and it hurts them. They get by dispite their rules, when their rules could be another strength. That's my complaint with GW. Because while they may be a models company, their rules are what sells most of their models.

I agree with just about everything you've said in this thread. It's been very well put (far better than I could). I know this isn't applicable to the tourney scene but many peoples gripes with the rules can be solved in your gaming groups by adjusting them to suit. "Fixing them" I agree with sentiment "why should I when I just paid £60 for the rule book" but if something's not working to your groups liking fix it.

I think my personal gripe with GW is they just don't seem to be listening to the fan base, not always but it's becoming too obvious now that it's quantity over quality, especially with the rule books and codexes. As an example the Chaos Marine codex. Then when they had a chance to release a legion specific supplement they gave us Black Legion. Really ? GW how much better would a Deathguard, Thousand Sons, World Eaters or Emperors Children have been ? If they had been listening this is what we would have had.

[Denzark]

Do you know what Deady, my major love has been a Khorne based Chaos army. But actually I am finding CBL awesome. I guess they saw it as a quick win; with the principle confirmed they can progress onto other stuff. Mebbe?

[Wolfshade]

I got the first multipart plastic berzerker kit with the view to create a khorne army, it never got any further than that.

[Denzark]

There's a story there, berzerker heads go onto bikers and raptors to give a common theme...

[Wolfshade]

It was more a case of I didn't buy any chaos after that... still in my mind, though not sure I want berzerkers, after all I've got my bangles which are essentially the same army only good.

[Mr Mystery]

See, I am openly dismissive of PP because having tried their game, I know it's simply not the messiah of wargaming many claim. It's really, really linear. Any mission or scenario can ultimately be won by pulling off your feat into the enemy warcaster's face, and drumming them into the ground. The rules might be tight with little room for argument, but when every game can be won in precisely the same manner, I consider that a fundamental flaw in the game's design.

The armies? Not enough variety. Every single one is a slight variation on the central theme. Again, that turns me off the game.

Then of course, we come to the prices. It might be ostensibly cheaper to get involved, but what are PP offering me, as a UK consumer, for my money? Just a model to use in a game. Wayland Games sell the models. Starter set? Two-player battle box, at discount? £71.95. With a mighty 17...plastic...models.... That to me is pretty steep.

Then we have the way they release their rules. To keep up to date? I have to buy every single book they release. Now, I do this through choice with GW, but for PP? It's arguably compulsory to keep my hand in. So, let's total that up. If I was pick up Warmachine right this second, and have every rule for my chosen army? That would be, incluing the starter box? £134.80. That's the cheapest price, sticking to the soft back expansion books. If I went quality for quality? That'd be an additional £17 or so....

£134.80 just to get started and be up to speed. Granted you then have all the rules until the next book comes out, which has it's advantages, but we're talking about beginning. Oh, and don't forget, when that next book comes out, you best dip into your wallet, just to keep your army selection choices up to date.

Compare to 40k. Again, we'll use Wayland, as they offer a discount. In order to get started and have the full Codex? Dark Vengeance - £51.05. And whether you choose to go Dark Angels or Chaos? £25.50 from Wayland. Even if I buy both, so like Warmachine I end up with all the rules for both armies in the starter set, it's £102.05.... And if I just want the one? £25.50 less, making it £76.55, or not far off half the price of Warmachine. And that's my rules done until a new book comes out for my army (length of time will of course vary depending upon whereabouts in the cycle we currently are)

Both sets offer a self contained gaming experience. Both are indeed designed to be expanded upon. But going on UK prices, I think I have just busted that Warmachine is cheaper to be starting off with.

*I'd also like to point out that nobody seems to accuse PP of price gouging, despite being on a model for model basis around the same, if not a little bit more than GW, despite not having an international chain of stores to support, a fraction of the staff, oh, and have at least a chunk if not all their range made in China, noted for cheap production costs. Where does that money go? Why does no one question this ever?

[eldargal]

I'm put off by PP for two reasons:
Their fanbase at university when I tried to get into Warmachine where some of the most obnoxious and outright misogynist little ****ers I've ever had the misfortune to meet face to face. I know they aren't all likethus (my brothers play for a start) but it put me off.
The casual sexism of 'play like you've got a pair'.

[Wolfshade]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Pears.jpg/220px-Pears.jpg

Woo I can play. Now if only someone else near me did...s

[Mr Mystery]

Or perhaps a pair of suede brogues is what they mean....

http://www.oliverbrown.org.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/m/e/mens-shoes-euston-brogues-brown.jpg

[GravesDisease]

I do not require my model company to care about me, merely they only produce models and fiction that I would like to buy. You could say that our mutual relationship is strictly professional.

I would like my community to be nice though; to be patient, to be magnanimous in victory and graceful in defeat.

[BeardMonk]

I am openly dismissive of PP because having tried their game, I know it's simply not the messiah of wargaming many claim. It's really, really linear. Any mission or scenario can ultimately be won by pulling off your feat into the enemy warcaster's face, and drumming them into the ground. The rules might be tight with little room for argument, but when every game can be won in precisely the same manner, I consider that a fundamental flaw in the game's design.

In our group of friends we actually consider the "quick play" nature of WM/H one of its strengths. We can gather round a house, crack beers open and have a mini league of 5-6 games in a night. It’s good to play a game where a whole battle can be lost or won by having moved one model 1" in the wrong direction, or failing to pop a certain buff or spell.

It forces decision making rather than slow burn strategy. For the record, I love both types of game

I agree that lots of people play WM/H via a series of set moves/actions. However imo it’s the WM/H "community" itself rather than the rule set that has created and almost enforces the set piece moves via a weird form a peer pressure. This pressure also massively affects the army lists people run. Play Cryx? Then you MUST run Bane Thralls. Run Kador? Then you must take XYZ. We once went to an open event in London and were openly mocked for not taking the "standard" or "expected" stuff in our lists, but then we were able to win games because we acted outside the orthodoxy that most of them conform to. I agree that it’s the wrong attitude but it’s an attitude created by the tournament scene (which is big) not the game rules itself. IMO :-)

I have come across a lot of WM/H players who are total W*&$ers. But I deal with that by playing only with those who see and play the game for what it is. Competitive fun.

I think it’s a great games system. But it’s still a fairly young system which is still developing and maturing. It is a fun game to play. Maybe you have unfortunately just played it with the wrong people?

[DarkLink]

See, I am openly dismissive of PP because having tried their game, I know it's simply not the messiah of wargaming many claim. It's really, really linear. Any mission or scenario can ultimately be won by pulling off your feat into the enemy warcaster's face, and drumming them into the ground. The rules might be tight with little room for argument, but when every game can be won in precisely the same manner, I consider that a fundamental flaw in the game's design.

Except that's amateurish play right there. Warmahordes kind of has a steep learning curve, but once you get over it, blindly running forward and popping your feat will get you killed. You keep making statements like this that seem to illustrate that you don't actually know that much about the game.

More importantly, again, while you might not like the way the game plays, it is unquestionably better written than 40k. It's vastly more balanced, and the rules aren't ridden with vagaries and loopholes. You personally might not like the game, but don't be so simple as to assume that no one should like it as a result.




Then we have the way they release their rules. To keep up to date? I have to buy every single book they release. Now, I do this through choice with GW, but for PP? It's arguably compulsory to keep my hand in. So, let's total that up. If I was pick up Warmachine right this second, and have every rule for my chosen army? That would be, incluing the starter box? £134.80. That's the cheapest price, sticking to the soft back expansion books. If I went quality for quality? That'd be an additional £17 or so....

Actually, you don't have to buy any of their books to get the army rules. You can get the core rulebook, buy the models, and you're set. You don't need codices or anything like that. Everything else is optional.

[Mr Mystery]

Dude. I haven't made any such generalisations.

Warmahordes is simply not the perfect game many claim. It has several downsides. Some enjoy it despite these, just as I enjoy GW's offerings despite their downsides.

[DarkLink]

Nor did I say it was perfect. You just seem to be saying "lalalala gw is awesome everyone else sucks lalalalala" with your fingers shoved in your ears. Warmahordes specifically really only gets brought up because they're probably the second biggest competitor, and in contrast to gw's lazy rules PP built their game on the quality of their rules rather than on good models. So for those of us who actually care about the quality of 40ks gameplay, they make for a good compare/contrast. GW could stand to learn a few lessons from the upstarts.

[Mr Mystery]

Not saying that either.

GW went with a narrative bent, making the game setting and scenario driven. Here, the 'rule of cool' is important to get right, and for my money they have.

PP went another road. Whilst equally valid, they haven't focused as much on the setting.

Both have their appeal, but for me GW's is a wider appeal, commercially speaking. PP appeals to the Steampunk crowd. For those of us who don't like Steampunk, this is a limiting factor in the extreme. GW? Each army is different enough in aesthetic, let alone play style to ensure few people won't find something they like.

It's also easier to house rule the ropiest rule set to fit your preference, but harder to create your own corner of a setting when you can't even field a non-named character.

I find the defensiveness of PP players amusing. Suggest the game is anything but perfection and you get called a GW Fanboi.

[Chris Copeland]

I have to say, I like the WarmaHordes setting. I find it engaging and evocative. Also, there are a LOT of factions that cater to different playstyles, artistic preferences, and other reasons for playing/collecting. Look, I'm a GW phanboi. I'm a PP phanboi. I don't think being one means I can't be the other. Personally, I think PP puts out a much tighter rule-set and that GW does great background. I find them to be equal when it comes to sculpts. I agree with DarkLink: once you get into the nuance of the game the whole "run forward and feat" tactic REALLY doesn't work.

I don't know that I have any other point than this: this is not a binary equation. I think both companies do a lot for the gaming community. Each company caters to different aspects of my nerdliness... I dig that!

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

My tastes have changed over the years, as has 40k, and it is for me like when you get friends that just grow apart for me. I don't really hate them, and I still enjoy seeing what they are up to (I especially enjoying seeing how they improve the plastic technology and how those kits improve on a technical level, amazing stuff) and what people think, but it's unlikely id ever get back into it unless they did something really radical like introduce a new (non-legged) alien race.

I gave warmachine a quick go too, but like 40k, there isnt really any faction that aesthetically appeals to me - and I could never get into the "named" characters thing and it seems you can only get named warcasters (?). I've actually had to go as far as DIYing my own wargame as litterally nothing out there does what I want.

[Mr Mystery]

And that's another element to things.

Some people ragequit.

Others just sort of move on in gaming terms.

Others still 'grow out' of gaming (at least for a bit).

Yet it's always presented as ragequit/disgust/this game is taking everyone.

And on the latter one, there is also a common claim that people only ever play one system, therefore all the WM players only play WM and have sold off their armies for GW.

[Wolfshade]

I wonder if Kill Team has been brought out to get back to skirmish level game again?

Also, gives you a nice entry point without needing to shell out money for an army.

Also Kill Team is brilliant.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

And that's another element to things.

Some people ragequit.

Others just sort of move on in gaming terms.

Others still 'grow out' of gaming (at least for a bit).

Yet it's always presented as ragequit/disgust/this game is taking everyone.

And on the latter one, there is also a common claim that people only ever play one system, therefore all the WM players only play WM and have sold off their armies for GW.

I never understood the ragequit thing. i'm nowhere near as involved as I was and my interests are certainly changing/evolving but I dont think I could ever just up and suddenly sell all those miniatures I worked hard on, and at least for me I tend to go through phases when it comes to my interests so I'm sure ill get the 40k bug again oneday..