Line of sight for MC/FMC, do they ignore true line of sight?

[LCS]

So I have a buddy that plays Tyranids, and he always says that monstrous creatures (and therefore FMC) don't draw line of sight like normal models, but instead draw from anywhere on the model. This always seemed weird to me, what with the inclusion of true line of sight in this edition. I know there is nothing like this in the rulebook, and I guess it was in the Tyranids FAQ? But now that the FAQ has been pulled, does this still apply? It's been an issue a few times. I'll maneuver my flyer directly behind his so I don't eat 12 twin linked S6 shots from his Flyrant, but he shoots anyway because FMC have 360% vision. Or one time his exocrine was backed into a corner, so I put his mawloc that made a deep strike mishap directly in front of the exocrine. But because his exocrine could still "see" me from his ***, he got to shoot me. Is this the way it works? I mean, if the rules say so then I guess I have to deal with it. But if there aren't rules saying that MC and FMC are exempt from normal LoS rules anymore, is this still the case? I've gone through the BRB/FAQ and I can't find any rules saying they don't have to follow normal LoS. Any info here would be awesome. Maybe the rule is there and I'm just missing it, it's been known to happen before.

[Daredevil]

I'm not sure if I can quote directly from the rulebook but yes they can.

Pg 49, Para: 'Swooping Hunters'

[LCS]

Page 49, Swooping hunters, last line: "Flying Monstrous Creatures can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle units." To me this means that if they can draw line of sight they can shoot at something.

Page 8, the lines about LoS in bold "For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace a straight, unblocked line from it's eyes to any part of the targets body (the head, torso, arms or legs)."

So how do models ignore true line of sight? To me the rules seem to be that you draw line of sight from the eyes, and if you can see it you can shoot it. Meaning you don't just have to fire at what is directly in front of you. If this is not the case, where does it say that? And if everything other than vehicles can just shoot from anywhere on the model (it did used to be like this) than what is the point of the true LoS rule?

[Anggul]

MCs are like Infantry, they have 360 vision and you look from their eyes. The thing with most Tyranid MCs is that they're hunched over with their heads at or below their shoulders, so you just look from the height that their head is at. Just like with infantry, it's assumed that the model turns around on the spot to see and fire. I don't imagine most people turn all of their infantry so that every one of their heads is actually facing the models they're firing at. The same goes for MCs.

[This Dave]

I have a question relating to the subject line. How do people handle LoS from FMCs that are swooping but don't have a flying stand, such as a Daemon Prince, or ones in glide or grounded that do have the stand such as a Harpy? The ones without the stands can't see over terrain like the ones with, making true LoS from the model tough. As for the ones with they should be able to take cover behind terrain if they're on the ground but that's tough when their stand keeps them up in the air.

Do you just assume the ones without stands can see and be seen by all? And maybe take the stand off the other model to put it on the table?

[Anggul]

You just use the model as it is. Yes, it's stupid. The Daemon Prince model is from 5th ed when flyers weren't a thing, so it was always what we would now call 'gliding'. Basically it has an unfair advantage because it's a model from a previous edition. The Harpy and Crone are the other way around, and should really have some kind of two-part flying stand so they can switch heights for gliding and swooping. As it is it's going to look pretty stupid when they're in close combat and up in the air, and means they can't glide low to take cover like they should be able to.

[Nabterayl]

Page 49, Swooping hunters, last line: "Flying Monstrous Creatures can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle units." To me this means that if they can draw line of sight they can shoot at something.

Page 8, the lines about LoS in bold "For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace a straight, unblocked line from it's eyes to any part of the targets body (the head, torso, arms or legs)."

So how do models ignore true line of sight? To me the rules seem to be that you draw line of sight from the eyes, and if you can see it you can shoot it. Meaning you don't just have to fire at what is directly in front of you. If this is not the case, where does it say that? And if everything other than vehicles can just shoot from anywhere on the model (it did used to be like this) than what is the point of the true LoS rule?
All non-vehicle models shoot from their eyes, as page 8 (qualified by page 72) says. However, non-vehicle models do not have a facing. As page 10 says:


Whilst the direction a model is facing won't impact is ability to shoot ... later in the turn ...

What this means, essentially, is that we pretend that models' eyes are on a little 360 track around the outside of the model. Non-vehicle models are literally assumed to have eyes in the back of their heads.

However, that is not the same thing as being able to shoot from anywhere on the model. A non-vehicle model can't shoot from its tail, its shoulder, its humped back, its guns, or anywhere else. What this translates to, in practical terms, is that models have a given height for purposes of firing (the height of their eyes).

Why is that relevant? Because what "True Line of Sight" replaces is the 4th edition system of assigning all models and terrain pieces a height. In 4th edition, terrain could either by level 1, 2, or 3, and models were either level 1 or 2. A model behind terrain of equal level was in cover; a model behind terrain of higher level could not be seen. This was true whether the model was actually obscured or not. It was not uncommon to see level 1 hills modeled as about 0.75" high, and a level 2 hill to be simply two level 1 hills stacked on top of each other. Obviously a 1.5" barrier isn't going to literally obscure a lot of models - most vehicles, despite being "level 2" models, could still be seen behind such a hill, as could most MCs.

When 5th edition replaced this system with what GW somewhat misleadingly calls "True Line of Sight," it chucked this three-tier level system out the window. Now, if a Rhino was behind a 1.5" hill but could still be seen ... you could still see it. It got a cover save, but it wasn't invisible the way it was under the old rules. Two models of 1" height could see each other over a hill 0.75" high, but a very short model like a gretchin might not be able to see over a barrier like that. If you wanted to know whether a model could see through a window to shoot (such as in a ruin, or an Aegis-like barricade), you just looked.

True Line of Sight(TM) also matters for determining whether a target is in cover. If the shooter's eye-rays can hit at least 75% of the target's valid silhouette without intersecting some sort of barrier, the target is not in cover. Otherwise, it is. But the shape of the silhouette changes based on the bearing of the shooter, which can also affect whether a barrier actually intersects the shooter's eye-rays at all.

So ... that's what it does.

[Sly]

Anggul is right, but there is an interesting question: Is a model "in" area cover if its base is in area cover, even if the model is floating above the base? It seems to me that the answer has to be "yes", because jetbikes are also floating above the terrain and yet can use area cover. There doesn't seem to be a delineated difference between Jetbikes floating over area cover and Swooping FMCs floating over area cover, so it would seem that both should get to use area cover.

[Nabterayl]

Anggul is right, but there is an interesting question: Is a model "in" area cover if its base is in area cover, even if the model is floating above the base? It seems to me that the answer has to be "yes", because jetbikes are also floating above the terrain and yet can use area cover. There doesn't seem to be a delineated difference between Jetbikes floating over area cover and Swooping FMCs floating over area cover, so it would seem that both should get to use area cover.
For Area Terrain, yes, absolutely.

[Charistoph]

I have a question relating to the subject line. How do people handle LoS from FMCs that are swooping but don't have a flying stand, such as a Daemon Prince, or ones in glide or grounded that do have the stand such as a Harpy? The ones without the stands can't see over terrain like the ones with, making true LoS from the model tough. As for the ones with they should be able to take cover behind terrain if they're on the ground but that's tough when their stand keeps them up in the air.

Do you just assume the ones without stands can see and be seen by all? And maybe take the stand off the other model to put it on the table?

These are in a situation where they have a poorer visibility to targets due to being lower, but on the other hand, other units have a poorer visibility to THEM, too. It comes out as a wash, imo.

[Anggul]

These are in a situation where they have a poorer visibility to targets due to being lower, but on the other hand, other units have a poorer visibility to THEM, too. It comes out as a wash, imo.

Eh... only if they're psykers relying on powers that target the enemy. Daemon Princes are almost always more concerned with not being seen and buffing themselves and their allies than being able to see the enemy. If they were a shooty unit then yes, but in this case they're a punchy unit, so would much rather be hidden.

[daboarder]

also worth noting,

You ignore the wings when drawing LOS to FMC's