2nd and 11th legions??? what happened???

[sicarius2424]

i have been wandering what happened to these 2 legions for a long time and i want to know what people think about them heres a link if you don't know anything about them or not very much
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions

i read a part in this link that said "Prior to sending Sigismund and his Imperial Fists to Mars during the Heresy, Dorn muses to Malcador the Sigillite on the loyalist support of two legions, possibly the two unknown legions, during the Heresy. Malcador quells the Primarch's thoughts, stating that "They are lost to us forever."" i'm thinking lost to the warp some how but lets see your opinions

the info points in all diferent directions so i can go any way really

[entendre_entendre]

the II and the XI legions were never named because originally GW left that spot open for people to create their own Legion if necessary. this is why there is never any solid information about them.

if you wanted a fluff explanation, it's obvious that they had legions and that they had met their brothers, if only briefly (or their brothers had heard of them). they were probably secretive, as the primarchs would have felt their "absence" more if they had been closer together.

as for what happened:

1. They left the Galaxy on the Great Crusade and got lost, so they couldn't come back.

2. Their gene-seed failed (similar to what happened the the Emperor's Children, only it was total).

3. (mainly for you xeno-lovers) They encountered the Enslavers and were annihilated.

4. Someone set them up the bomb (possibly the Emperor)

5. They chose no side in the Heresy and were subsequently banished (unlikely due to recent HH material)

6. They fought for both sides during the Heresy and were destroyed by vengeful forces on both sides (as likely as the above)

7. They are myths- the other primarchs heard of their "discovery" but never met them (i.e. they never existed for a variety of potential reasons, but were said to)

8. They encountered a Time Paradox and were forced to continue from their last save point, reversing time and accidentally removing themselves from their own timeline.

9. They were lost in the warp, becoming Daemon Princes due to freak chance (or Tzeenech?) there were no Legions, or they were Legions without Primarchs and possibly folded back into existing Legions with a simple memory wipe.

10. They were erased due to them starting their own Empire on the Eastern Fringe leading to what would have become a Heresy before the HH, but Horus actually protected them by starting his own separate rebellion forcing the Imperium to shift its resources away from the Lost Primarchs to Horus.

there is no definite answer, so make up something interesting.

[Fellend]

Eaten by a very confused errant voidwhale

[Duke]

Not to be a killjoy, but there was a pretty extensive thread on this topic a little while back.

the conclusion: They were too short, and were called squats... Because the emperor was afraid of "the wee little ones" he had them exterminated.

Duke

[rkiviman]

Perhaps they were just obsorbed into the other legions. Their Primarchs had been lost and they are never mentioned as having been assigned anywhere????? The Great Mystery of 40K.

[sicarius2424]

[QUOTE=The Great Mystery of 40K.[/QUOTE]

or atleast one of the many

[Mike X]

i read a part in this link that said "Prior to sending Sigismund and his Imperial Fists to Mars during the Heresy, Dorn muses to Malcador the Sigillite on the loyalist support of two legions, possibly the two unknown legions, during the Heresy. Malcador quells the Primarch's thoughts, stating that "They are lost to us forever."

Honestly, you need to hear how it's phrased to really understand the context of the conversation between Dorn and Malcador. It's very intriguing.

If you want to hear it, try downloading "The Dark King & the Lightning Tower", which is an out of print Horus Heresy audiobook.

[rkiviman]

Maybe, one or both of these "Lost Legions" are what made the Grey Knights Chapter!! They were made in secret and no one fully knows their exact origin. I guess anything is possible!!??

[druchi]

no its not the Grey Knights are the 666th founding chapter :P

Also the other two legions are left out for us to be creative so I think that they where most probably <LOST IN THE WARP D:>

[eagleboy7259]

and rumored to have been crafted in secret from the emperor's own gene-seed! =O

anyway due to their rigorous selection process I didn't think any regular marine would have been thrown in there, plus the whole demonic incursion paranoia post heresy that spurred their creation required a whole new set of marines.

I always figured before the HH books came out that they died on whatever planets they came to before the Emperor could get to them and the Emperor felt their deaths in a almost star wars like fashion. Super-human or not its surprising that 18 magic infants landed on separate planets and were all able to survive, let alone become masters of their planets. I just think of Angron and Mortarion who probably would have died without the Emperor's intervention and apply that to the other two. HH books or not that's still the way it works in my head

[person person]

There was alot of Lost legion conspiracies behind this in the Favourite 40k secret thread. Basically for the records of the Lost Legions to be stricken, something very bad must've happened. Or of course the Emperor realized something was wrong with the lost legions and had to rid his mistake in all ways possible.

[sicarius2424]

Maybe, one or both of these "Lost Legions" are what made the Grey Knights Chapter!! They were made in secret and no one fully knows their exact origin. I guess anything is possible!!??

no the grey nights were made up of loyalist death gurad and one luna wolf or atleast the inquisition so i'm asumeing that they eventually became the grey nights

[Melissia]

They had visions of the Ultramarines hogging all the glory and so they got bored and left.

[Herald of Nurgle]

They had visions of the Ultramarines hogging all the glory and so they got bored and left.
Sounds awkwardly like every army i've ever played.

[Renegade]

They had visions of the Ultramarines hogging all the glory and so they got bored and left.

If they had been the ones that left, 40K would be far less blue.

If the secret was ever let out, just think of all those that have DIY chapters based on them... "THAT! That is my Primarch! Nooo!"

[[email protected]]

maybe they r all in a big box labeled open when 40K ends....aka da wulftime

[sicarius2424]

ohi i play ultramaines 2nd company!!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Marshal2Crusaders]

ohi i play ultramaines 2nd company!!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad:

The shock is overwhelming.


no the grey nights were made up of loyalist death gurad and one luna wolf or atleast the inquisition so i'm asumeing that they eventually became the grey nights

Cite your source.


They had visions of the Ultramarines hogging all the glory and so they got bored and left.

Silly Melissa, the lost Primarchs were the Primarchs of the Necrons and Tau. And they were Women. Who had sex with the Emperor. And had a starchild.

[DarkLink]

Cite your source.


There are several different rumors of how the Grey Knights were founded. In the GK codex, "it is rumored that the geneseed came from the Emperor himself".

Additionally, in one of the Horus Heresy books, I believe Flight of the Eisenstein, Nathaniel Garro and several other loyal Marines from traitor legions are tasked with creating the Inquisition, and it is said that the Emperor used their geneseed to create a new, pure geneseed, from which the Grey Knights were founded.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Rumors and speculation though. Nothing concrete.

[Subject Keyword]

2nd: Angry Marines

11th: Pretty Marines

Honestly! I'm surprised at you guys....

[sicarius2424]

There are several different rumors of how the Grey Knights were founded. In the GK codex, "it is rumored that the geneseed came from the Emperor himself".

Additionally, in one of the Horus Heresy books, I believe Flight of the Eisenstein, Nathaniel Garro and several other loyal Marines from traitor legions are tasked with creating the Inquisition, and it is said that the Emperor used their geneseed to create a new, pure geneseed, from which the Grey Knights were founded.

yeah your right

[Marshal2Crusaders]

yeah your right

No he's not right, it is hinted that they may start the inquisition, not stated. How do you write research papers? If everything that was rumored was true then Elvis is still kicking around Vegas, 9/11 was an inside job, and the ice caps are melting.

[rkiviman]

On page 404 in the book Malcador answers Garro, " There is a matter to which you will be set, not today, perhaps not for many months, but eventually. The Warmaster's disposition has made it clear that the Imperium requires men and women of inquistive nature, hunters who might seek the witch, the traitor, the mutant, the xenos... warriors like you, Nathaniel Garro, Iacton Qruze, Amendera Kendel, who could root out the taint of any future treachery: a duty to vigilance." There is no mention of gene seed and only an inference of what may be in the future.

[Artein]

Elvis is still kicking around Vegas, 9/11 was an inside job, and the ice caps are melting.
Nope, very unlikely.
Yeah, probably it was.
Probably not, but who cares, even if so, it won't change a thing.

*takes his toys and goes home*

[rbryce]

If everything that was rumored was true then Elvis is still kicking around Vegas, 9/11 was an inside job, and the ice caps are melting.
12-27-2009 05:26 PM

elvis is in space, he sold his ship to arthur dent;)
9/11 may not have been an inside job, but WMDs in iraq was
the ice caps ARE melting, its just that its not really us melting them, its natural, and in our arrogance, we blame ourselves lol

[mysterex]

I was flicking through the Space Wolf codex last night. It states that all 20 primarchs were found, reunited with the Emperor and given their legions and that it happened prior to the Horus Heresy.

So the "fluffy answer is either:

- They were either lost or destroyed and either some careless tech deleted all the remaining records or the records were destroyed in some unintentional way; or
- They did something even worse than rebel against the Emperor and had their details intentionally expunged. I can't think what this would be though; or
- The whole chapter is on some multi-thousand year black operation and the records have been destroyed to hide the fact.


I think the first option is more likely so I'd go with that.

[rkiviman]

Or they're waiting for the end times and are going to join with the Emperor and Primarch's on their returns to fight Chaos!!?? In this universe stranger things have happened??:D

[sicarius2424]

Or they're waiting for the end times and are going to join with the Emperor and Primarch's on their returns to fight Chaos!!?? In this universe stranger things have happened??:D

nut then one has to be loyal and the other traitor becuase all the records say that the legions split half going towards the emporer and the other half turning towards chaos (if you have not read "legion" then do not read (well sort of becuase the alpha legion is still loyal }:) hehe one of my favorite tid bits)

[rkiviman]

Interesting choice the twins have concerning their legion!!

[Extinction Angel]

Clearly the 2nd Legion, the New Yarris Rangers, and the 11th Legion, the Badab Bruins, immediately set upon one another when they first met and fought each other unto extinction.

[Majorcrash]

Here's a thought that i havent heard before, i dont think anyway. What if the Legion of the Dammed is one of the two missing legions. Of course this still doesnt explian why they arent talked about.

[sicarius2424]

Here's a thought that i havent heard before, i dont think anyway. What if the Legion of the Dammed is one of the two missing legions. Of course this still doesnt explian why they arent talked about.

srry to be the bearer of bad news but the legion of the damned are the survivors of the fire hawks chapter :/

[mysterex]

srry to be the bearer of bad news but the legion of the damned are the survivors of the fire hawks chapter :/

According the write ups in both WD279 and codex SM that is jut one of a few theories, another is that they are a "manifestation of the Emperors will". The Inquisition has never been able to get close enough to confirm what they are.

[Majorcrash]

srry to be the bearer of bad news but the legion of the damned are the survivors of the fire hawks chapter :/

That is a theory of the Inquisitiion.

[ratpack]

According to Chapter Approved, a record was found in a coffin drifting in space, left by Fire Hawks stating they are now cursed and they are now LotD (record states the details, but I am going to skip them).

Same article says that it is confirmed that the coffin belonged to Fire Hawks

[sicarius2424]

where does every one get all this chapter approved stuff! i want in!

[rkiviman]

I don't believe their any longer in print. You can find copies to buy on E-bay though. I was just looking there and saw 2sets of volume 1-3 for sale and another 5 seperate auctions for seperate copies listed.(volume 1,2&3).So if you want one just head over there and put a bid in!

[Cyberscape7]

I feel that while walking next to the original copy, Gav Thorpe accidentally spilt some tip-ex onto the paper. He was able to get most of it off but the second and eleventh legions were gone for good...
Probably not the reason but its funny:D

[Extinction Angel]

Also, I haven't seen it mentioned here, but in the Galaxy in Flames book when Horus is having his "intervention" and is in the "primarch factory" (for lack of a better term. Screw gestation chamber) he stops at the XI sarcophagus and thinks to himself about the potential that would never be realized or something to that affect. Strongly hinting that primarch is lost/dead.

He also smacks one of the cases and the book doesn't say for certain but reads like he might have broken it, possibly causing it to not survive it's warp-borne journey?? Just a thought.

[sicarius2424]

i believe it was either the 11th or the 2nd primarch becuase i don't think it said he went down the line

[Extinction Angel]

O and I must have taken my stupid pills it was in False Gods not Galaxy in Flames.

[Majorcrash]

ok so while reading "A Thousand Sons" I came across an entry where Ahriman is retelling the story of the legions, history to Lemuel Gaumon. He comes to the part about Magnus saving the Legion, and sayes
"There was even talk of disbanding usand expungingus from Imperial history. Lemuel shook his head. That the thing about history, he said. It has a habit of remembering the things you'd like to forget. No oe can erase that much, there will always be some record. Don't be so sure Lemuel, said Ahriman. The Emperor's wrath is a terrible thing." pgs 386 "A Thousands Sons"

Now althought that does not point directly to the lost Legions, it does give some credence to the theory that the legions 2, and 11 were destoryed by Emperor's edict before the Great Crusade. Guess we wil have to wait for further books to know.

[chadnezzar38]

may be refering to flight of the eisenstien HH book.

[Just_Me]

First off, despite some belief to the contrary, there really is no reason at all to believe that these two legions turned traitor, if they had then Horus' treachery would not have been that surprising. The "actual" reason is of course simply the GW wanted us to have blanks to fill in as we so chose with our own fluff.

As for an "in universe" explanation, I always thought simple worked the best, and more or less assumed that both had died during or before the great crusade, but this fact was expunged from the records so that the primarchs would always appear to be invincible (for those Halo fans out there, "no SPARTAN can be listed as KIA, only MIA so that it can be said none has ever died in battle").

[rkiviman]

That one is kind of hard to swallow ,because there is no mention of the 2 Legion's accomplishment's anywhere or their two Primarch's. The only mention of the missing Primarch's are contradictary. In either "
False Gods", or " Horus Rising" it's mentioned as they being killed?? In " Soul Hunter Konrad Kruze is relating how all 20 Primarch's have been gathered at one point!!??? So, still remains a mystery , but as has often been said the two missing Legions did leave gaps for all to explore with new Space Marine chapters with a shroud of suspense and mystery surrounding them!!:cool:

[DarkLink]

First off, despite some belief to the contrary, there really is no reason at all to believe that these two legions turned traitor, if they had then Horus' treachery would not have been that surprising. The "actual" reason is of course simply the GW wanted us to have blanks to fill in as we so chose with our own fluff.

As for an "in universe" explanation, I always thought simple worked the best, and more or less assumed that both had died during or before the great crusade, but this fact was expunged from the records so that the primarchs would always appear to be invincible (for those Halo fans out there, "no SPARTAN can be listed as KIA, only MIA so that it can be said none has ever died in battle").

Fully agree. GW will never say anything about these two legions other than the sort of vague references and hints they're currently giving out. These two legions were very explicitly stated to have been intentionally left out to allow people to make up their own loyalist or traitor legion.

In universe, the Primarchs did something embarrassing, like getting killed before the Emperor found them or some such. Thus, rather than the bad propaganda of a dead primarch, they were expunge from the records. We don't know what exactly they did, but it was probably something that wouldn't be all that cool anyways, like "the Emperor showed up, and his son challenged him to a duel. The Emperor accidentally killed him in the duel. The Emperor was embarrassed, so he destroyed all records of that primarch."

[albertsevil]

Now I don't know much about the lost Primarchs, but have read the Horus Heresy books and asorted fluff.

As far as i'm aware there are a few references in the books to gatherings of all the Primarchs (could be 18, could be 20) and also in a Thousand Sons a reference to a deletion of records caused by the Emperor's rath.

Also, in "False Gods" by McNeill, Horus thumps one of the Primarch-pods (XI) and splits it, yet it is not clear whether this is done in a dream sequence or whether he really was transported back in time - he is recognised while in the lab (by a Custode?), which lends support to him really being there. If this is correct it would answer the question of one of the lost Primarchs - killed by his brother while still an infant.

We do know (though I can't quote where from) that the genetic material from each Primarch was used to create a legion, there were also statues of all 20 Primarchs ("The Lightening Tower" audio story). What happened to the legions of the 2 lost Primarchs? Could they simply have been disbanded? Or were they incorporated into other organisations?

I personally don't favour the opinion that the Custodes and Grey Knights were of the Emperor's gene-seed, because the Emperor would not have had a gene-seed and needed to creat the first gene-seed in his labs much in the same way as he created all the other myriad of organs the Primarchs and marines used. I believe the Primarchs were created in part from the Emperor's gene-stock (in no small way they were his real sons) and then made distinct and individual, with gene-seed organs being created as an easy way to create the legions.

So how were the Custodes formed? If they have gene-seed it is either because they have a parent (Primarch) or have seed taken from the gene-banks on Terra (from any or all of the legions). It is possible that the Primarch-pod Horus destroyed caused a Primarch to be lost and that Primarch's gene-seed was used to create the Custodes (with additional training and growth as opposed to basic marines - "Blood Games" by Abnett). The records of this dead Primarch would have been expunged form Imperial history as the Emperor would not have wanted the fallibility of a Primarch to be common knowledge - they were supposed to be shiny new Gods and Princes for a golden age.

As for the last lost Primarch, it is possible that it was simply Omegon and he landed on the same planet as Alpharius and they grew up together, or that he was lost/killed/never-found. It is also perfectly possible that he was found but kept secret to use as an early Inquisition type figure which would explain the untainted gene-seed used to create the Grey Knights - by why under Garro? ("Flight of the Eisenstein") Did the secret Primarch fail or die?

My favourite explanation (which is hardly supported by the fluff) is the the last Primarch was found but was an 'invisible' a.k.a a psychic null ("Codex Imperialis") and so was kept around the Emperor's palace and used to fight in the Webway battles. He would have been kept secret as an ace up the Emperor's sleeve and may have been hidden in the guise of a Custode and could be the origin of the Custode gene-seed. He either died in the battle for the Webway, battle for the Palace, battle for Horus's ship or survived and now labours unceasingly to fix the Golden Throne.

What ever happens we know the final answer is not likely to be forthcoming from GW, they left the slots open for fan made armies and fiction and are unlikely to change that. But I hope they do.
Hope you enjoyed the rant.

[L192837465]

I still think the Emperor expunged all records after creating the Grey Knights and the Custodes with those two legions. He wanted no record of what they were so no one could find weaknesses ect.

[Fellend]

Eaten by errant void whales. Such a shameful demise needed to be expunged from history.

[Just_Me]

Regarding the idea that one of the missing Primarchs was used to found the Custodes, we all but know that the Custodes are cultured from the Emperor's genetic material, much as the Astartes are from their respective Primarchs. In Flight of the Eisenstein the Custodes are described as being "to the Emperor what Astartes are to a Primarch." Now there really isn't any problem with this, we do know that the Emperor had genetically enhanced soldiers both before and during the Primarch project, while the Astartes were created from the genetic data of the Primarchs after they were scattered. Most likely these original enhanced soldiers were augmented from the Emperor's own genetic information, as opposed to the Primarchs who were created from the ground up using the Emperor's genetic material, making them almost the same order of being that he is.

As for the Grey Knights, it has been suggested that their geneseed is drawn from (or at least augmented with) the Emperor's genetic material, and it has been clearly stated that they were created during the Second Founding. Given these facts they cannot be one of the missing legions.

So as tempting as these explanations may be, we have to look elsewhere for the fate of the fate of the 2nd and 11th legions.

[Spetzna909]

So I am new to the forums, but my curiosity about the expunged 2 legions set me on a path to Google. From there I tried to look for interesting theories.

There was some mentioning earlier to different references in the Horus Heresy novels, but no one seemed to notice this one. I honestly believe this is a reference to one of the missing Primarchs.

"A Thousand Sons" page 265 (Conversation between Magnus and Mortarion on Ullanor before the great parade)

"
Mortarion laughed, the sound like mountains collapsing.
'I knew a being like you once before,' he said, 'so sure in his powers, so convinced of his superiority that he could not see his doom until it was upon him. Like you, he wielded dark powers. Our father made him pay with his life for such evil. Have a care you do not suffer the same fate.'
"

What do you all think?

[Gooball]

There is so little information on them that it's impossible to know for certain.
I like to think they came to blows and drew the legions in with them and the emperor was so ashamed he deleted them from everything (Before heresy)

[pgarfunkle]

Spetzna, I think in your example from Thousand sons Mortarion is referring to his "adoptive" father who found him after the primarchs were scattered and against whom Mortarion led a rebellion. The lexicanum has information about mortarion's early upbringing. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mortarion

[Spetzna909]

Funkle, thank you so much for the link. I think you may be right about that.

Question though that is a bit off topic from the Thread as a whole, but connected perhaps to the quote I made earlier.

Any Idea what Mortarion and Magnus are speaking of here? Last half of page 265.

"
'Brother,' said Magnus, ignoring Mortarion's words. "A great day is it not? Nine sons of the Emperor gathered together in one world, such a thing has not happened since...'

'I know well when it was, Magnus' said Mortarion, his voice robust and resolute in contrast to his pallid features. 'And the Emperor forbade us to speak of it again. Do you disobey that command?"

'I disobey nothing, brother,' said Magnus, keeping his tone light, 'but even you must recognize the symbolism of our number. Three times three, the pesedjet of ancient gods, the Occidental orders of angels and the nine cosmic spheres of the forgotten ages.'
"

Any idea what this is all about? What day is he referring to I wonder.

I know the numbers 3 and 9 seem to be mentioned over and over during "A T Sons" and there are 9 Fellowships (Companies).

I'm probably gonna paste this over to the T Sons review as well to see if anyone has any ideas. :D

[dvs1]

According to HH A Thousand Sons, a psychic remembrancer had a vision of "...The Ravens, I see them too! The lost sons and a Raven of Blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!" Compiled with all the fluff from BL novels, DoW1/2, they seem to suggest that the blood ravens may in fact be our missing legion. They constantly refer to a primarch that no one remembers, as well as a mysterious history/founding. If the third Blood Raven novel is anything to go on, the emperor himself tasked the blood ravens with that moving psychic choir thingy they do aboard their battle barge. That implies that they are super old, like early great crusade old.
I have a theory of why they do that moving psychic choir ritual. Perhaps in his insatiable quest for knowledge, the blood ravens primarch either got himself lost in the warp, or perhaps banished? Since the astronomican is a fixed point on which to navigate through the warp, perhaps the blood ravens are traveling around holding up their "signal flare" hoping their lost primarch sees it and returns to them. Not to mention their high propensity for psychic powers, that got them censored some time in their unremembered past... convenient.

[Spetzna909]

So I just started reading Dan Abnetts "Lighting Tower"

You are basically reading about Dorn, and at one point of the story, he is standing there looking at an stop in the Palace on Terra where statues of the Primarch's are. This is during the building of Terra's defenses, and after The Emp. and Dorn know of Horus' betrayal.

Here is what is said...

"There was no one around. Even the Custodian Guard was absent. Lumen orbs glowed on black iron poles. The Investiary was two kilometres in diameter. Under the glittering stars, it felt like an arena, where twenty warriors had gatheres to make their combat.

The second and eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their seperate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one heeded?"

I find this to be rather interesting. Almost as if Dorn is hinting that the two lost primarchs had turned on the Imperium, or turned to Chaos.

Thoughts?

[Extinction Angel]

I'm guessing during a war for compliance one or both of the Primarchs either fell victim to the local brand of Chaos or became sympathizers with their way of life and defected.

[caeser-22]

Its always been my interpretation that the 2nd and 11th primarchs fell in with chaos from the outset and openly attacked the Emperor or the other primarchs, its hard to believe that all the primarchs accepted the Emperor as their master /parent/creator? after all "am i not a god amongst men".
One of the HH books(a thousand sons i think) seems to suggest at least one of the lost primarchs was psychic "Mortarion to Magnus-I knew a being like you once before so sure in his powers so convinced of his superiority that he couldn't see his own doom ,like you he wielded dark powers,our father made him pay for his evil.My belief is that the being in question literally failed to master his psychic power and was consumed by chaos .The reason Horuses treachery came as a surprise could simply be the Emperor couldn't believe yet another of his sons had fallen to he darkside.

That or Workshop simply left them empty so they can fly out of the warp at the "End of time" to do battle for whichever side.

[eldargal]

Personally I don't think GW even has an explanation for it, they just left them bare to add some mystery. Succeeded damned well, this is probably the most heavily discussed fluff of 40k.

I'm not saying people shouldn't speculate and whatnot, thats part of the fun. Personally I'm sticking with the two primarchettes forging a secret confectionary empire based around their Fudgeworld.

[Majorcrash]

Personally I don't think GW even has an explanation for it, they just left them bare to add some mystery. Succeeded damned well, this is probably the most heavily discussed fluff of 40k.

I'm not saying people shouldn't speculate and whatnot, thats part of the fun. Personally I'm sticking with the two primarchettes forging a secret confectionary empire based around their Fudgeworld.

Ahead of time I beg forgiveness, but its to wide open....... so is one of the primarch the leader of the fudgepackers????????

[energongoodie]

According to HH A Thousand Sons, a psychic remembrancer had a vision of "...The Ravens, I see them too! The lost sons and a Raven of Blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!" Compiled with all the fluff from BL novels, DoW1/2, they seem to suggest that the blood ravens may in fact be our missing legion. They constantly refer to a primarch that no one remembers, as well as a mysterious history/founding.

The Blood Ravens are more likely a lost company of the Thousand sons. The one that goes off into space before Leman Russ arrives. Not one of the lost legions.

[Spetzna909]

I really don't think that the Blood Raven's were one of the lost legions. That seems too far fetched. They would not have just reappeared at some time. If anything, I agree with what was said above...I think they might be a lost company of the Thousand Sons.

So, this will be my third post where I quote something from the Horus Heresy books. I always enjoy these little hints about the missing 2 primarchs and legions.

At this point in the book Mechanicum, you break away from Mars for a moment to join Dorn and Malcador.

When talking about the Emp. not coming up from his work to help with the preperations of defense, this is said.

"Then we are alone."
“No,” said Malcador. “Not alone. Never alone. The Emperor may not stand beside us, but he has given us the means to fight this war and win it. Horus has three of his brother legions with him, you have your Fists and thirteen others.”
“Would that it were fifteen,” mused Dorn.
“Do not even think it, my friend,” warned Malcador. “They are lost to us forever.”
“I know,” said Dorn, “and you are right. By any simple reckoning of numbers, the traitor stands little chance of victory, but he was always the most cunning, the one most likely to find a way where no others could.”

[dw4yn3]

To the people who think the two 'lost' Primarchs fell victim to chaos early on and were deleted from the records because the Emperor was ashamed... there is a simple flaw in your logic: if he was so ashamed about their actions then how much more of a candidate for deletion would Horus have been?

The 2nd and 11th Primarchs are kept secret to provide some mystery and allure. If Games Workshop wanted fans to know who the 2nd and 11th Primarchs and their legions were (if those two ever even had legions) then they would have said so.

[Jmaximum]

Also, I haven't seen it mentioned here, but in the Galaxy in Flames book when Horus is having his "intervention" and is in the "primarch factory" (for lack of a better term. Screw gestation chamber) he stops at the XI sarcophagus and thinks to himself about the potential that would never be realized or something to that affect. Strongly hinting that primarch is lost/dead.

He also smacks one of the cases and the book doesn't say for certain but reads like he might have broken it, possibly causing it to not survive it's warp-borne journey?? Just a thought.


SPOILERS (in case you have not read 'The First Heretic' do not read any further)






Apparently, the same thing happens to a select handful of Word Bearers, and they discover a massive Geller Field Generator in the Primarch Factory while being taken back in time by a Daemon. I dont want to give away the whole book, but one of them starts cutting cables, and thats the cause of the warp rift that opens in the factory, scattering the Primarchs across the galaxy (they offer a compelling reason as to why this happens in the book). Oddly, in 'False Gods' I dont think Horus was aware of the Word Bearers' presence, and neither are the Word Bearers aware of Horus during this same instance in time.

Sorry to digress so much from the topic of what happened to the II and XI Primarchs...

[Jmaximum]

Also, in "False Gods" by McNeill, Horus thumps one of the Primarch-pods (XI) and splits it, yet it is not clear whether this is done in a dream sequence or whether he really was transported back in time - he is recognised while in the lab (by a Custode?), which lends support to him really being there. If this is correct it would answer the question of one of the lost Primarchs - killed by his brother while still an infant.


I apologize in advance for the double post.

A lot of this is covered in 'The First Heretic'.
Again, Spoilers follow.











Throughout the first half of the book, when Lorgar gains 'enlightenment' after the Emperor punishes the entire Word Bearers Legion for spreading faith in the Emperor as a god, he laments the loss of his two brother primarchs.
On page 295 of 'The First Heretic', while a select group of Word Bearers has been brought back in time by a Daemon to witness the creation of the Primarchs, one of them locates the XI primarch's gestation pod, and states "The eleventh primarch sleeps within this pod - still innocent, still pure. I ache to end this now!" Another Bearer says "It would save us all a lot of effort, wouldn't it?" And the first one replies "It would save Aurelian [ed. note: Lorgar, in case you don't know] from heartbreak." This sort of implies that something happens between the XI Legion and the Word Bearers.
This may also contradict what is said in 'False Gods' where Horus thumps and cracks the stasis pod for XI, as that instance with Horus and this instance with the Word Bearers seem to happen at the same point in time (the both witness the Warp rift open and the stasis pods stolen).

On a side note, it's kind of tragic that the Emperor forced an entire Legion to go traitor by his own actions of punishing them for worshiping him as a god (and sowing that faith across the galaxy), when, in the 41st Millennium, that is what the entire Empire of Man is all about.
'The First Heretic' really portrays the Emperor as an Old Testament Christian God, as in: you don't smile at me the right way and your planet will be wiped out.
Also, 'The First Heretic' portrays Daemons as somewhat benign, and actually willing to help mankind, and this Daemon goes so far as to say (I'm paraphrasing here): That the primarchs were made with black technology long since lost to man, and with the help of the powers of the Warp. The Emperor could not have done it by himself, and the Four Gods of the Warp are angered when he refuses to pay a price of blood and souls. This occurs somewhere between pages 290 and 305 in 'The First Heretic'. Of,course the Damon could be simply lying.

And finally, again, sorry for the length of this, but if you want a good fan-fic on how the 40K Universe ends, read: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221588 Yes its on another forum, but you don't have to regi to read. Just be aware that the forum text-formatting has not been kind to the author's original work. (Note, this is not my work.) But it is worth the read in my opinion.

[Pendragon38]

Do you guys know what legion was guarding Mars before the HH other than skaitars?

[pgarfunkle]

Potential spoilers for the most recent couple of Horus Heresy books



Definitely agree that the Blood Ravens are likely to be a lost chapter of the Thousand Sons, although I doubt we'll get anything more than rumour and hints to confirm this from GW. To support this we can look to the thousand sons novel where Magnus orders 1 of the thousand son ships/fleets away from prospero before the wolves arrive. Also there are a number of raven references throughout the novel. Additionally if the founders of the "new" chapter knew that their primarch was considered a traitor they could refer to him as the forgotten primarch allowing them to continue paying fealty to their father without openly praising a one considered a traitor to the imperium. Over time the truth could be lost to the chapter.

There is also information in prospero burns which indicates that at least 1 of the 2 missing chapters at least in part turned against the emperor. I think russ comments that the attack on prospero is not the first time his legion has acted against other astartes.

Pendragon, from what I know there were no astartes legions stationed on mars prior to the heresy. Mars provided it's own defence and had numerous Titan legions stationed on the planet instead who aligned themselves with different factions on the planet. A good book for more information about the legions ans factions on mars is mechanicum.

[Jmaximum]

Also, in "False Gods" by McNeill, Horus thumps one of the Primarch-pods (XI) and splits it, yet it is not clear whether this is done in a dream sequence or whether he really was transported back in time - he is recognised while in the lab (by a Custode?), which lends support to him really being there. If this is correct it would answer the question of one of the lost Primarchs - killed by his brother while still an infant.



A lot of this is covered in 'The First Heretic'.
Again, Spoilers follow.











Throughout the first half of the book, when Lorgar gains 'enlightenment' after the Emperor punishes the entire Word Bearers Legion for spreading faith in the Emperor as a god, he laments the loss of his two brother primarchs.
On page 295 of 'The First Heretic', while a select group of Word Bearers has been brought back in time by a Daemon to witness the creation of the Primarchs, one of them locates the XI primarch's gestation pod, and states "The eleventh primarch sleeps within this pod - still innocent, still pure. I ache to end this now!" Another Bearer says "It would save us all a lot of effort, wouldn't it?" And the first one replies "It would save Aurelian [ed. note: Lorgar, in case you don't know] from heartbreak." This implies that something happens between the XI Legion and the Word Bearers, and Lorgar is heart broken over whatever it is, and the fact that the Emperor expunges the XI.
This may also contradict what is said in 'False Gods' where Horus thumps and cracks the stasis pod for XI, as that instance with Horus and this instance with the Word Bearers seem to happen at the same point in time (they both witness the Warp rift open and the stasis pods stolen, which doesn't give Horus to walk over to the XI pod). However, retracing my steps from my earlier post, apparently at the last instant before they are whisked away one of the Word Bearers becomes aware of Horus in the room, calls him by name, but has no chance to interact with him, so this may be the recognition Horus thought he had in 'False Gods'. Also, further on between pages 306 and 320, one of the Word Bearers is given a vision of where the primarch pods go. These things were strong enough to withstand atmospheric reentry AND crashing at a terminal velocity into a planetary surface, turning the pod into a crumpled tin can, but not killing the primarch inside. If you have read all the books up til now, you will recognize the description of the settings and the description of the primarchs of all but one, which I suspect is either the II or XI. So while Horus is the biggest/baddest/strongest of them all, I don't think him thumping the pod would be enough to kill the XI pirmarch.

On a side note, it's kind of tragic that the Emperor forced an entire Legion to go traitor by his own actions of punishing them for worshiping him as a god (and sowing that faith across the galaxy), when, in the 41st Millennium, that is what the entire Imperium of Man is all about.
'The First Heretic' really portrays the Emperor as an Old Testament Christian God, as in: you don't smile at me the right way and your planet will be wiped out.
Also, 'The First Heretic' portrays Daemons as somewhat benign, and actually willing to help mankind, and this Daemon goes so far as to say (I'm paraphrasing here): That the primarchs were made with black technology long since lost to man, and with the help of the powers of the Warp. The Emperor could not have done it by himself, and the Four Gods of the Warp are angered when he refuses to pay a price of blood and souls. This occurs somewhere between pages 290 and 305 in 'The First Heretic'. Of,course the Damon could be simply lying.

One more thought: I really like how the series of books is not linear (some are, but 'The First Heretic' seems to be happening before or during 'False Gods', before Horus rebels.) I have this suspicion that, one the series is done, if you lay the books out in order of occurrence and connecting story lines, you will get an 8-pointed star.

And finally, again, sorry for the length of this, but if you want a good fan-fic on how the 40K Universe ends, read: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221588 Yes its on another forum, but you don't have to regi to read. Just be aware that the forum text-formatting has not been kind to the author's original work. (Note, this is not my work.) But it is worth the read in my opinion.


Wow. Thanks for wading through my extra-long winded post.

[Jmaximum]

Do you guys know what legion was guarding Mars before the HH other than skaitars?

it is kinda weird that the Void Dragon/C'Tan GOD has not been disturbed or discovered by, ya know, EVERYTHING that happens on Mars. From whole continental shelfs blowing up in Mechachanicus to the Chaos Virus Code, you'd figure something might pique its curiosity. I do like the irony that a xenos god is living that close to Terra. But, for that matter, how the hell has the Emperor never detected its presence?

[Baron Spikey]

it is kinda weird that the Void Dragon/C'Tan GOD has not been disturbed or discovered by, ya know, EVERYTHING that happens on Mars. From whole continental shelfs blowing up in Mechachanicus to the Chaos Virus Code, you'd figure something might pique its curiosity. I do like the irony that a xenos god is living that close to Terra. But, for that matter, how the hell has the Emperor never detected its presence?

Because the Emperor imprisoned it there? See Mechanicum

[Jmaximum]

Because the Emperor imprisoned it there? See Mechanicum

Thanks for the heads-up, I did not remember that part.

[Andrew283]

One theory I just thought up. Perhaps one of the two was mutated in some way, either physically or with some form of mental instability. The big E obviously wouldn't want this leaking out so deleted him from History. Perhaps the other done something more shameful than betraying his father, say comiting suicide or something like that.

[wittdooley]

Well, the two missing Primarchs were referred to as the Tragic and the Fallen respectively; we can assume, based on Russ' comments in Prospero Burns, that the 13 Legion took out one of the legions in some way; this was probably the Fallen's legion.

"Tragic" implies something wholly different, and I could see it potentially being some sort of grotesque mutation. Plenty of them are already mentally unstable (see: Angron & Curze, Konrad) so I don't think it's likely he'd have that much of an issue with that. We also know that both eventually found their Legions, so that takes away the notion that the Fallen was killed while young, etc.

[MarneusCalgar]

Well, we must think their statues were erased from the Imperial Palace on Terra, so if this happened they must did something very worse than surrender to Chaos like their other brothers, like Horus, did...

[Jmaximum]

No he's not right, it is hinted that they may start the inquisition, not stated. .

I just listened to Garro: Legion of One. It is evident that Malcador created the Inquisition, but Garro is not in charge of it, nor really that important to it. he is just in charge of a team of marines under the command of the Inquisition.

From what I have guessed at, and this all pure conjecture: the Emperor is the Primarch for the Custodes, as they are seen as being superior to even Space Marines, but not on the level with a Primarch, and Malcador is the Primarch for the Grey Knights.

[Dalleron]

Malcador isn't/wasn't the primarch of the GK. He was but a mere human, with extraordinary psychic power, second only to the Emperor and maybe Magnus. He was involved in the creation of the GK, according to the newest GK codex.

[wittdooley]

I just listened to Garro: Legion of One. It is evident that Malcador created the Inquisition, but Garro is not in charge of it, nor really that important to it. he is just in charge of a team of marines under the command of the Inquisition.

From what I have guessed at, and this all pure conjecture: the Emperor is the Primarch for the Custodes, as they are seen as being superior to even Space Marines, but not on the level with a Primarch, and Malcador is the Primarch for the Grey Knights.

It's been made relatively clear in the most recent fluff that one of the initial 8 marines that will be involved in the forming of the Inquisition becomes the first grand master, Janus. We also know that part of the initiation rites of the GK is to purge your former self and adopt a new name. Janus is always depicted as having two faces in mythology, which is clearly represented by the double headed eagle aquilla, and alludes the fact that the character probably has a poor history (with one face looking back on that history, and one face looking forward towards a new future/rebirth).

Based on all that, I think it's HIGHLY likely that either Loken or Garro is the Janus. Both from traitor companies. Both betrayed and almost killed. So yeah, there it is.

The Emperor is Primarch to the to the Other Primarchs. Most of the fluff details the Custodes as being just further enhanced marines with different/superior training.

[Jmaximum]

It's been made relatively clear in the most recent fluff that one of the initial 8 marines that will be involved in the forming of the Inquisition becomes the first grand master, Janus. We also know that part of the initiation rites of the GK is to purge your former self and adopt a new name. Janus is always depicted as having two faces in mythology, which is clearly represented by the double headed eagle aquilla, and alludes the fact that the character probably has a poor history (with one face looking back on that history, and one face looking forward towards a new future/rebirth).

Based on all that, I think it's HIGHLY likely that either Loken or Garro is the Janus. Both from traitor companies. Both betrayed and almost killed. So yeah, there it is.

The Emperor is Primarch to the to the Other Primarchs. Most of the fluff details the Custodes as being just further enhanced marines with different/superior training.

I bow down to your worthy knowledge. Your fluff-fu, is greater than mine.

[wittdooley]

I think winning the fully-knowledge title is sort of like being the king of a sandbox filled with cat poop. It's something, but you're king of the cat poop kids.

[plawolf]

One of the Primarches came to Terra with a husband (tragic) and the other stepped off a cliff (fallen).

The gay marines were killed off by the Wolves as that is not allowed and shall not be mentioned, and the suicide's marines were made into smurfs. Or should it be the other way around? That would explain all the comments about rods up the arses of smurfs. It's a massive in-joke amongst all the other Legions...

[eldargal]

Except Dark Angels are the gay marines.

[Pendragon38]

In the DA 'dex its hinted that Russ and the Lion haveing to squash a rebellion on there way to Terra. My other thought is maybe a whole legion are squats (LoL)

[plawolf]

Except Dark Angels are the gay marines.

Whaba now?

[Pendragon38]

Whaba now? Dont play DA.ha there worse than gay(there more like the girl with daddy issues from Cally) not all women are like that. Before I start a gender war im married. My wife is level headed and cant stand most other women. So back to the topic at hand

[eldargal]

It is widely believed that the Dark Angels are homosexuals based on the fact their name comes from a poem by the repressed homosexual poet Lionel Johnson who also gave his name to the primarch. Some say homosexuality is one of their shameful secrets but personally I doubt it, there is little indication the Imperium cares about where one inserts ones penis.


Whaba now?

[wittdooley]

Plus, no one seems to care much that the Spartans were card carrying NAMBLA members, so why should it concern us if the Speeeshhh Muuhhrreens are?

[plawolf]

It is widely believed that the Dark Angels are homosexuals based on the fact their name comes from a poem by the repressed homosexual poet Lionel Johnson who also gave his name to the primarch. Some say homosexuality is one of their shameful secrets but personally I doubt it, there is little indication the Imperium cares about where one inserts ones penis.

Well, if they are gay, that would make a lot of grown men very happy and a lot of little kids cry. :p

But they are hiding it well and staying firmly in the closet if they are. Don't think the Empy would be all that bothered about 'where one inserts one's penis' in private. ;)

But if one of the primarchs was openly and OTT gay...well, that might clash with the general image the Empy want's to create for the IoM, and maybe he just decided to put the poor primarch in some closet prison under the palace instead of having to explain that one to the general public...

[Wildeybeast]

I'm fairly certain that space marines have their sex drives removed as part of the conversion process. When would they find the time for shore leave and who would they be able to sleep with without physically killing.

And even if a Primarch were gay, why would that matter providing he was still cracking skulls. Alexander the Great was partial to a little man on man action on occasional, so if it's good enough for him, the Emepror can hardly complain.

I can't help but feel this has got a little off topic

[Lord Anubis]

Playing for over twelve years now and I have never, ever heard the rumor that the Dark Angels were secretly gay. Every piece of fluff I've ever seen portrays Marines as non-sexual beings who are just far above such petty mortal needs and desires.

Besides, I'd argue that by the time you've gone through the whole recruitment process, it doesn't matter if you were straight, gay, bi, or what have you. After ten-plus years of psycho-conditioning, your only love is for the Emperor of mankind. :)

[plawolf]

Post Heresy Emperor's Children were suggested to indulge in a little raping IIRC, and unless Slannesh gave them all extra gifts, it may be physically possible for Space Marines to have sex. It may just be that they just have no sex drive because of all the bio-engineering and psycho-conditioning.

But I think GW has been very conservative in terms of sex in fluff, since a large, if not the majority, of its customers are too young for it so it would be irresponsible and unwise to go into that area too much.

But just because it isn't mentioned in the fluff does not necessarily mean it's not possible. It's not like GW has gone on record to say its impossible.

The whole subject has just been censored by the =I= instead.

[wittdooley]

Post Heresy Emperor's Children were suggested to indulge in a little raping IIRC, and unless Slannesh gave them all extra gifts, it may be physically possible for Space Marines to have sex. It may just be that they just have no sex drive because of all the bio-engineering and psycho-conditioning.

But I think GW has been very conservative in terms of sex in fluff, since a large, if not the majority, of its customers are too young for it so it would be irresponsible and unwise to go into that area too much.

But just because it isn't mentioned in the fluff does not necessarily mean it's not possible. It's not like GW has gone on record to say its impossible.

The whole subject has just been censored by the =I= instead.

Clearly you haven't read Fulgrim.

HOLY ORGY!

[plawolf]

Clearly you haven't read Fulgrim.

HOLY ORGY!

I have actually, and that was what I was referring to before about the Emperor's Children. And i think it should be 'unholy orgy'...

[eldargal]

Not necessarily, if they are homosexual it would have to be a genetic fault for the reason you say, sex drives are removed so come to think of it they could be keeping it secrret for that reason.

It is off topic though, unless one of the missing primarchs was the catcher to Jonsons pitcher.


I'm fairly certain that space marines have their sex drives removed as part of the conversion process. When would they find the time for shore leave and who would they be able to sleep with without physically killing.

And even if a Primarch were gay, why would that matter providing he was still cracking skulls. Alexander the Great was partial to a little man on man action on occasional, so if it's good enough for him, the Emepror can hardly complain.

I can't help but feel this has got a little off topic

[plawolf]

Not necessarily, if they are homosexual it would have to be a genetic fault for the reason you say, sex drives are removed so come to think of it they could be keeping it secrret for that reason.

It is off topic though, unless one of the missing primarchs was the catcher to Jonsons pitcher.

Hmm, I think my little light hearted attempt at humor might have been taken a little too far. :p

Besides, all the Primarchs are brothers...what you are suggesting is just too wrong to contemplate further.:o

[gwensdad]

Hmm, I think my little light hearted attempt at humor might have been taken a little too far. :p

Besides, all the Primarchs are brothers...what you are suggesting is just too wrong to contemplate further.:o

Which makes it even more of a reason to be "fallen"

That or they were Mareines:

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/187/0/3/my_little_primarch_by_fiannavalkyrie-d3l956h.jpg (http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=&section=&q=my+little+40K#/d3l956h)

(there's a frightening amount of this on deviantart now)

[plawolf]

Arrhh! My eyes!

But why are you even looking there in the first place? :p

[GeordieGenius]

Mmm I know that horse!!!!!

[gwensdad]

Arrhh! My eyes!

But why are you even looking there in the first place? :p

um...reasons...yeah...My 7 year old (OMG, 8 TOMORROW!) likes...stuff...Also, look up Space Mare-ines sometime ("Will you accept my friendship Xenos Scum?")

[Kieranator K82]

um...reasons...yeah...My 7 year old (OMG, 8 TOMORROW!) likes...stuff...Also, look up Space Mare-ines sometime ("Will you accept my friendship Xenos Scum?")

You don't have to defend yourself. It's okay.

[plawolf]

um...reasons...yeah...My 7 year old (OMG, 8 TOMORROW!) likes...stuff...Also, look up Space Mare-ines sometime ("Will you accept my friendship Xenos Scum?")

You know I was only pulling your leg when I asked right. ;)

[UrielVentris]

Space Wolves killed one simple as that. They all but say it in Prospero Burns ('every chapter has their place. the watchmen, the alchemist, the sieger, the defender, the stormtrooper. we're the executioners')

Bear (won't use his real name to spoil the fun) goes on and tells the Skjald about how 'its been done before' about being used as executioners. This fact alone warrants the primarch in question survived to have his own legion.

As to what happened after the primarch got their legion, well, that's still up for speculation.

The Garro question we'll just have to wait and see. They're keeping the stories alive and hopefully they'll have more come out. His storyline is really good and I personally hope he's part of the founding cadre of grey knights.

[Jmaximum]

But I think GW has been very conservative in terms of sex in fluff, since a large, if not the majority, of its customers are too young for it so it would be irresponsible and unwise to go into that area too much.


nevermind any sexy stuff: the colossal amount of violence, death, and destruction should be enough to slap a T+ label on it. I mean, you have guys turning into buckets of mush in their armor when the virus bombs fall in full excruciating detail. I dont think they (GW) would find a sex scene or two offensive or irresponsible, it just doesnt seem to be needed to play a part in the 40K books.

[MasterGideon]

I had a thought/theory about this, could the reason for the legions being wiped out have something to do with the emperor knowing the future/his own future

I.E he knows that Horus will turn on him and so will 8 other Primarchs and for some reason the 2 missing legions and their primarch found out/discovered what was going to happen and tried to change the future hence why the were expunged?

I am sure this is wrong but I got me thinking perhaps there is something we are missing, a final twist in the whole story, like perhaps they are not dead, but everyone thinks they (its been mentioned that all the primarch and malcador have been told not to discuss their missing brothers and that they are "lost" forever. Emperor attempting his own "Quantum Leap" plan by attempting to change his/galaxy future.....

MasterGideon

[plawolf]

nevermind any sexy stuff: the colossal amount of violence, death, and destruction should be enough to slap a T+ label on it. I mean, you have guys turning into buckets of mush in their armor when the virus bombs fall in full excruciating detail. I dont think they (GW) would find a sex scene or two offensive or irresponsible, it just doesnt seem to be needed to play a part in the 40K books.

Violent is a lot more acceptable than sex. All the violence on TV and in computer games is perfectly fine, but someone pop a tit at a superbowl or there is sex in a computer game and suddenly it's a massive scandal. That's just the way things are, and GW would not be the first or last organisation to choose to give the subject a wide berth to avoid possible problems.

[Jmaximum]

Violent is a lot more acceptable than sex. All the violence on TV and in computer games is perfectly fine, but someone pop a tit at a superbowl or there is sex in a computer game and suddenly it's a massive scandal. That's just the way things are, and GW would not be the first or last organisation to choose to give the subject a wide berth to avoid possible problems.

good points all around Wolf. I doff my hat in ur general direction.

[wittdooley]

I had a thought/theory about this, could the reason for the legions being wiped out have something to do with the emperor knowing the future/his own future

I.E he knows that Horus will turn on him and so will 8 other Primarchs and for some reason the 2 missing legions and their primarch found out/discovered what was going to happen and tried to change the future hence why the were expunged?

I am sure this is wrong but I got me thinking perhaps there is something we are missing, a final twist in the whole story, like perhaps they are not dead, but everyone thinks they (its been mentioned that all the primarch and malcador have been told not to discuss their missing brothers and that they are "lost" forever. Emperor attempting his own "Quantum Leap" plan by attempting to change his/galaxy future.....

MasterGideon

The answer to this is a definitive "no." The Outcast Dead makes that fairly clear. It also makes very clear that the Wolves have taken out another Legion.

[Jmaximum]

Oh man I JUST bought Outcast Dead. Now I cant wait to finihs Battle of the Fang and read 'Dead.

[Ferg]

We are all the 2nd Legion.......:cool:


'cept for that guy over there.........---------------------> :mad:

He's the 11th Legion.

[Kawauso]

Violent is a lot more acceptable than sex. All the violence on TV and in computer games is perfectly fine, but someone pop a tit at a superbowl or there is sex in a computer game and suddenly it's a massive scandal. That's just the way things are, and GW would not be the first or last organisation to choose to give the subject a wide berth to avoid possible problems.

This is more true in North America than in places like Europe, though.
And it's really ****ed up, if you think about it.

Why should depictions of murder be so acceptable compared to depictions of love or lust? Virtually everyone in the world has sex...it's one of the most natural, normal things in the world, but hopefully very few people commit any sort of murder or extreme physical violence.

That aside, I do think that because of the North American market, GW shies away from sex a little bit. There've still been a few sex scenes in the Heresy series, though. Fulgrim comes rather readily to mind - the book, not the Primarch. Although who knows...Slaanesh, and all. ;)



All that aside - it's cool that Outcast Dead reaffirms what's been hinted at in Prospero Burns. I really need to get around to reading it. That still leaves one legion largely unaccounted for, though...hmmm...

[tdogp]

Blood Ravens ftw

[mickyt1984]

Good info here, the speculation is endless and GW designers have to bind an agreement ensuring no such fluff is ever created, so it's unlikely anything will ever be confirmed.

[Maleclypse]

I really don't think that the Blood Raven's were one of the lost legions. That seems too far fetched. They would not have just reappeared at some time. If anything, I agree with what was said above...I think they might be a lost company of the Thousand Sons.

So, this will be my third post where I quote something from the Horus Heresy books. I always enjoy these little hints about the missing 2 primarchs and legions.

At this point in the book Mechanicum, you break away from Mars for a moment to join Dorn and Malcador.

When talking about the Emp. not coming up from his work to help with the preperations of defense, this is said.

"Then we are alone."
“No,” said Malcador. “Not alone. Never alone. The Emperor may not stand beside us, but he has given us the means to fight this war and win it. Horus has three of his brother legions with him, you have your Fists and thirteen others.”
“Would that it were fifteen,” mused Dorn.
“Do not even think it, my friend,” warned Malcador. “They are lost to us forever.”
“I know,” said Dorn, “and you are right. By any simple reckoning of numbers, the traitor stands little chance of victory, but he was always the most cunning, the one most likely to find a way where no others could.”

I think this implies that the lost primarchs can in some way be contacted or brought out of stasis/lockdown.

[Maleclypse]

So some of the fluff talks about other human empires that still maintain full dark age of technology and the Imperium can't conquer them. What if the other two landed on worlds like that and refuse to bow before the God Emperor.

[GrogDaTyrant]

It's a nod to the Roman Empire, who had a nasty habit of striking from record the names and information regarding any legion that was completely eradicated in battle. It was something along the lines of "If they never existed, we couldn't have lost that war!"

I remembering hearing somewhere that the missing Astartes Chapters were a nod to that. The idea being that sometime during the crusades, prior to the heresy, two legions were destroyed in their entirety (most likely due to grossly underestimating their opposition). And the Impierium, Horus, and/or the Emperor decided to just wipe their information from record and pretend it never happened.

It also just so happens that 2 'blank spots' leaves room for players to make up their own first founding chapters. And by not giving a formal reason, adds that bit of mystery that fans tend to love. Which is why, iirc, an official answer has never been given.

[Dag]

Personally I'm glad that they don't provide any information on this, and hopefully they never will. There should be many 'ghosts' in the past that are never explained and have no relevance to plotlines in the heresy. They have been systematically removing a lot of the mysteries lost to the past. Instead of having many different viewpoints of what may have happened in certain situations, their new write ups are now 'clarifying' things so that there is only 1 interpretation. And that is a bummer :)

[wittdooley]

I think this implies that the lost primarchs can in some way be contacted or brought out of stasis/lockdown.

Yeah, I think you're misreading that. The implication is that the other two no longer exist, which is more or less corroborated in both Prospero and Outcast. One of the legions has been taken out by the Wolves. I imagine this is the legion led by the primarch deemed, "the Fallen." The other, called "the Lost" is much more ambiguous.

What we know is that he wasn't "lost" when the baby pods were scattered, as all of the legions were assembled and brought to full fruition. My best guess would be that they were eradicated by some other means.

[Houghten]

It is off topic though, unless one of the missing primarchs was the catcher to Jonsons pitcher.

Unlikely. Many of the Primarchs have meaningful names - you just have to ask yourself, whose name means "secret lover"? Hint: It's "Leman."





As to the missing Primarchs... Horus and his followers turned to Chaos and betrayed the Emperor, and yet still their records were not deleted. What could the missing two possibly have done that would be so much worse that all data about them would be expunged? How could they be that much more of an embarrassment to the Imperium? I can think of only one thing... they were women.

[Tenbears]

I think GW should leave the missing Legions a mystery. They have already filled in to much of the HH detail for my taste. I like it better with that vague legendary feel to the fluff.

[energongoodie]

Blood Ravens ftw

They're Thousand Sons buddy. Or so says the prevailing wisdom of the moment.

[Thornblood]

We do know a little about the missing Legions from Prospero burns.

We know the space wolves fought at least one Astartes Legion before. And from somewhere in that book I got the impression that they were adept at psychic ability/sorcery.

With the theory that the legions work in pairs (World Eaters and Space Wolves, Salamanders and Iron Hands, Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors etc etc) the Thousand sons do not have a pair, so that backs up the psyker possibilty for one of the legions.

It is heavily suggested that the Golden Throne was originally intended for Magnus to sit on, not the Emperor. Maybe this role was to be shared with another psychic Primarch, or originally a prison for the psychic primarch who is now dead. Maybe with the two psychic primarchs on the throne it wouldn't need so many souls sacrificed to it...

And lastly just to stir the secrets, maybe Omegon was the other Primarch (Alpharius' twin) and instead of the two of them counting as one, the two of them did in fact count as two and their legions combined.

[Jmaximum]

Maybe, one or both of these "Lost Legions" are what made the Grey Knights Chapter!! They were made in secret and no one fully knows their exact origin. I guess anything is possible!!??

It is more likely that Malcador was a pseudo primarch for them

[wittdooley]

It is more likely that Malcador was a pseudo primarch for them

Yeah. The Garro audiobooks make it pretty clear that this is the case. New one coming out soon should tell us even more!

[StraightSilver]

If you want to know about the origins of the Blood Ravens read Chris Wraight's short story "Rebirth" in the Horus Heresy Short Story Collection "Age of Darkness".

That pretty much confirms they were originally Thousand Sons who escaped the Rubric of Ahriman.

As for the two missing Legions they are most definitely based on the missing Roman Legions (not counting the 9th Legion as this was recently debunked).

Therefore one of them will be based on Armenius, a Roman General who commanded a Legion who pretended to be loyal to Rome, only to lure another Legion into a trap and wiped them out.

I suspect the story of the missing legions is similar. One Primarch bent the knee to the Emperor whilst secretly despising him, the other an incompetent general who was led into a trap.

I would imagie that the Wolves were then sent in to wipe out the traitor Primarch.

There is also an interesting hint in one of the novels with regards to what happened to the Astartes warriors from the missing Legions. It is hinted that they were subsumed into the ranks of the Ultramarines.

It may not be a coincidence that the 2nd and 11th Legions now form part of the 13th (2 +11 = 13).

[MarneusCalgar]

Nice!!

Now it also seems they will re-publish the Leonatos´s Blood Angels novels!!

[wittdooley]

If you want to know about the origins of the Blood Ravens read Chris Wraight's short story "Rebirth" in the Horus Heresy Short Story Collection "Age of Darkness".

That pretty much confirms they were originally Thousand Sons who escaped the Rubric of Ahriman.

As for the two missing Legions they are most definitely based on the missing Roman Legions (not counting the 9th Legion as this was recently debunked).

Therefore one of them will be based on Armenius, a Roman General who commanded a Legion who pretended to be loyal to Rome, only to lure another Legion into a trap and wiped them out.

I suspect the story of the missing legions is similar. One Primarch bent the knee to the Emperor whilst secretly despising him, the other an incompetent general who was led into a trap.

I would imagie that the Wolves were then sent in to wipe out the traitor Primarch.

There is also an interesting hint in one of the novels with regards to what happened to the Astartes warriors from the missing Legions. It is hinted that they were subsumed into the ranks of the Ultramarines.

It may not be a coincidence that the 2nd and 11th Legions now form part of the 13th (2 +11 = 13).
Wow. I hadnt ever even thought of this. This. Is. An awesome theory. Would make sense with the "lost" and the "fallen" monikers as well.

[sonsoftaurus]

Clerical error.

http://sonsoftaurus.blogspot.com/2010/11/secrets-of-lost-space-marine-legions.html

[daKrovar]

thank you sonsoftaurus for that link. That was a great read. Anyone who has been in the military probably has an experience that relates to just such events spiralling out of control.

[doom-kitten]

If you want to know about the origins of the Blood Ravens read Chris Wraight's short story "Rebirth" in the Horus Heresy Short Story Collection "Age of Darkness".

That pretty much confirms they were originally Thousand Sons who escaped the Rubric of Ahriman.

As for the two missing Legions they are most definitely based on the missing Roman Legions (not counting the 9th Legion as this was recently debunked).

Therefore one of them will be based on Armenius, a Roman General who commanded a Legion who pretended to be loyal to Rome, only to lure another Legion into a trap and wiped them out.

I suspect the story of the missing legions is similar. One Primarch bent the knee to the Emperor whilst secretly despising him, the other an incompetent general who was led into a trap.

I would imagie that the Wolves were then sent in to wipe out the traitor Primarch.

There is also an interesting hint in one of the novels with regards to what happened to the Astartes warriors from the missing Legions. It is hinted that they were subsumed into the ranks of the Ultramarines.

It may not be a coincidence that the 2nd and 11th Legions now form part of the 13th (2 +11 = 13).

This is an awesome theory, but as a Roman fanatic I have to point out Arminius was actually Germanic and he never commanded a Legion, only it's auxiliaries (plus a large number of barbarian tribes) and he defeated not one but three legions (17th, 18th, 19th) and captured their aquilia standards. However he died at the hands of assassins within his own tribe not the epicly furry claws of Russ...if only it was not so. If you research the Battle of Teutoburg Forest, Varus or Arminius (ignore stuff about Jacobus Arminius), you'll see what I mean. Sorry to crap on the best theory so far, really it's a good one and more then possible. Interestingly enough the Legion defeated by Arminius are referred to as the Lost Legions and while the Romans recapture the lost aquilas the Legions where never reinstated and their numbers never assigned to a successive Legion nor are the names for the Legions ever discovered.

[tdogp]

They're Thousand Sons buddy. Or so says the prevailing wisdom of the moment.

I agree with you, but one of the theories was that they were a lost legion, and I just wanted to say something:)

[daKrovar]

I guess GW will never release the full details of the two lost legions. The whole speculation thing is probably better for them long run as it will continue to generate interest for a very long time.

[Aradielangelfire]

I agree with you on that one. Part of the fun with those two is that we don't know. These kind of things are part of the genius of the 40k universe. If they came out and told us all about them, it would be mind-blowingly cool for a while, then it would wear off and we would have one less mystery to ponder.

Just my two cents.

[Terence]

Also agreed with DeKrovar - it is part of the fun.
I think that GW had one of the two ideas about them upon creation:
- let keep iit secret and gave the people out there a reason to make interesting discusion
- let keep 2 slots of priomarch unocupied for now - amaybe we will need them for something later if we need to

And please remember that probably Sigmar was one of the missed primarchs (he was found in wildernes after twin tiled commet apears on the havens) which bring us to the question (newer oficially answered one way or another by GW) if Old world is part of 40K uniwerse? Probably on werge of Eye of Terror.

[mjasghar]

umm sigmar was not found in the wilderness... at least not in the current stuff.
He is portrayed as a normal bloke who hitches himself to the spirit of the land - that's how I see it.
However there seems to be a link with the Lizardmen stuff about Old Ones. What has been changed there is that the collapse seems to no longer to be connected to rise of Slaanesh.

[tentonhammer]

I posted in another thread with a similar topic. My theory is it goes along a Cain and Abel story line but only with legions of Space Marines. Russ destroys Cain's legion with the survivors of Abels folded into Guillimans Ultramarines. This would explain why some of the 2nd founding marines have such a different mindset.(Mortifactors, picking certain worlds to become fortress monasteries)

[inquisitorsog]

Also agreed with DeKrovar - it is part of the fun.
I think that GW had one of the two ideas about them upon creation:
- let keep iit secret and gave the people out there a reason to make interesting discusion
- let keep 2 slots of priomarch unocupied for now - amaybe we will need them for something later if we need to

And please remember that probably Sigmar was one of the missed primarchs (he was found in wildernes after twin tiled commet apears on the havens) which bring us to the question (newer oficially answered one way or another by GW) if Old world is part of 40K uniwerse? Probably on werge of Eye of Terror.

40k and WFB are not part of the same universe in current "canon".

Upon creation, they almost certainly left them unknown for the express purpose of giving players some room to make their own founding chapters. It's a semi-common approach by game universe designers to nominate a portion of their universe to not be further developed in official materials to allow players to play in the official universe while also developing their own materials.

The HH series has pretty much killed that. It's now official (to the extent HH is canon) that the other chapters were absent by the time of the events of the heresy and likely that the Wolves were the executioners of at least one of those chapters.

[The Lost Autarch]

The two lost legions are the Alpha Legion. Yeah, they're that good.

[inquisitorsog]

The two lost legions are the Alpha Legion. Yeah, they're that good.
Thanks.
Today sucked at work and I needed that laugh.

[Sort Of Purple]

If you want to know about the origins of the Blood Ravens read Chris Wraight's short story "Rebirth" in the Horus Heresy Short Story Collection "Age of Darkness".

That pretty much confirms they were originally Thousand Sons who escaped the Rubric of Ahriman.

As for the two missing Legions they are most definitely based on the missing Roman Legions (not counting the 9th Legion as this was recently debunked).

Therefore one of them will be based on Armenius, a Roman General who commanded a Legion who pretended to be loyal to Rome, only to lure another Legion into a trap and wiped them out.

I suspect the story of the missing legions is similar. One Primarch bent the knee to the Emperor whilst secretly despising him, the other an incompetent general who was led into a trap.

I would imagie that the Wolves were then sent in to wipe out the traitor Primarch.

There is also an interesting hint in one of the novels with regards to what happened to the Astartes warriors from the missing Legions. It is hinted that they were subsumed into the ranks of the Ultramarines.

It may not be a coincidence that the 2nd and 11th Legions now form part of the 13th (2 +11 = 13).

+1 likes for this. I don't know about the roman legions stuff, but one killed the other and was then later executed fits in my world.

Ever since my young teenage self read the codex imperialis from the 2nd edition box I connected with the missing legions being as my birthday is November 2nd. And always figured them to be chaos. I've not kept up with the fluff and for all I know what I read from then is totally out of date. But it strikes me as odd that it specifically states that all records of them were removed following the heresy, when as far as I know the traitors suffered the same fate for the betraying the emperor.

[Pendragon38]

Im starting to think are beloved Emperor ate them or worse they got pluged in to the golden throne:D

[Maleclypse]

The Golden Throne didn't exist when the two missing legions disappeared did it?

[Xess]

Damn shame GW will neve give us the two Lost Founding chapters since plot is in a constant stasis

[trjames]

i read a part in this link that said "Prior to sending Sigismund and his Imperial Fists to Mars during the Heresy, Dorn muses to Malcador the Sigillite on the loyalist support of two legions, possibly the two unknown legions, during the Heresy. Malcador quells the Primarch's thoughts, stating that "They are lost to us forever."" i'm thinking lost to the warp some how but lets see your opinions

The second and eleventh legion primarchs were squats. One day Leman Russ and Rogal Dorn were wrestling. Dorn threw Russ out of the ring, and onto their poor stunted bretheren, thus ending their lives. This was prior to the formation of their legions. It was decided to just let it go.

[sway]

I have a theory on this.. What if the 2 missing chapters are actually the Deathwatch and the Grey Knights? This seems highly unlikely but think about this, the Grey Knights are a psychic brother hood that just happened to appear after the Horus Heresy. Now when you think about it all psykers were told they could no longer use their powers and were suited up as standard rank and file marines, what if before the heresy they were part of a legion that the emperor disbanded due to them all being psychic? because they were "Disguised" as standard marines and the legions were so big they could just be passed off as a new influx into the chapter, after the Heresy they were taken from their rank and file duties and put into the grey knights, the greater of them becoming librarians ie: Tigurius, and therefore making the grey knights without a primarch

Same kind of rules apply to deathwatch, how are deathwatch marines selected? Why do they have to be taken from most chapters and then just happen to get along and fight side by side together? Why can't they just be a chapter unto themselves?

Why are both of these organisations surrounded in so much mystery?

Another alternative is that all the fluff is a cover and one of the legions is actually the legion of the damned

[Kataklysm]

I have a theory on this.. What if the 2 missing chapters are actually the Deathwatch and the Grey Knights? This seems highly unlikely but think about this, the Grey Knights are a psychic brother hood that just happened to appear after the Horus Heresy. Now when you think about it all psykers were told they could no longer use their powers and were suited up as standard rank and file marines, what if before the heresy they were part of a legion that the emperor disbanded due to them all being psychic? because they were "Disguised" as standard marines and the legions were so big they could just be passed off as a new influx into the chapter, after the Heresy they were taken from their rank and file duties and put into the grey knights, the greater of them becoming librarians ie: Tigurius, and therefore making the grey knights without a primarch

Same kind of rules apply to deathwatch, how are deathwatch marines selected? Why do they have to be taken from most chapters and then just happen to get along and fight side by side together? Why can't they just be a chapter unto themselves?

Why are both of these organisations surrounded in so much mystery?

Another alternative is that all the fluff is a cover and one of the legions is actually the legion of the damned


I can unfortunately dispell this theory. The grey knight were originally formed from survivor marines from a few of the traitor legions after istavaan that didnt turn traitor with the rest. so that debunks that.

As for the deathwatch marines: they have been explained as a Ordos Xenos formed kill team of specialized Xenos hunters, Formed LOOOONG after the death of the emperor. Inclusion of space marine chapters also seems voluntary, rather than mandated (even though the inquisition would like to think that they can tell a space marine what to do haha).

sorry about the let down, it would have been cool if your idea were the case.



Side note: what ever happened to the sigmar is a lost primarch fluff? or was that just something that we liked to think way back in the day?

[Wildeybeast]

Side note: what ever happened to the sigmar is a lost primarch fluff? or was that just something that we liked to think way back in the day?

That is, IMO, utter nonsense. There has never been anything official to suggest that the Warhammer World is contained in the Warhammer 40K universe, beyond using the same Chaos deities and the Old Ones (which is just laziness from GW). As for Sigmar being a Primarch, we can conclusively lay that to rest. For a start, there are no 'lost primarchs', the Emperor found all 20 and then exiled/killed two for unknown reasons, along with their legions. Sigmar has no space amrines with him. Secondly, the Age of Legends Sigmar trilogy makes clear that Sigmar is born as a man and is JUST a man, no matter how remarkable he is. He is not physically different from his comrades, beyond being a better warrior and bears no resemblance to a space marine, never mind a primarch.

[bfmusashi]

I thought Sigmar lived longer than a human lifespan and was potentially immortal until Nagash got his licks in.

[Wildeybeast]

No. Sigmar grows up and ages at the same rate as everyone else and gets old. No one is quite sure what happens to him at the end of his life, he just wanders off to meet the Dwarfs but their records have no account of him. His ascent into godhood comes about because people start worshipping him, though how that works is pretty unclear (GW has alaways been rather vague on the nature of gods in the Warhammer world, beyond that they exist and have the power to influence the world). And I'm not sure what Nagash has to do with it, Sigmar defeated him.

[bfmusashi]

During the fight with Nagash pieces of his foul blade and the toxins that run its length cause Sigmar grievous injuries. It's supposed to have robbed him of his vitality, but that was from my memory of the first Undead book.

[Kataklysm]

That is, IMO, utter nonsense. There has never been anything official to suggest that the Warhammer World is contained in the Warhammer 40K universe, beyond using the same Chaos deities and the Old Ones (which is just laziness from GW). As for Sigmar being a Primarch, we can conclusively lay that to rest. For a start, there are no 'lost primarchs', the Emperor found all 20 and then exiled/killed two for unknown reasons, along with their legions. Sigmar has no space amrines with him. Secondly, the Age of Legends Sigmar trilogy makes clear that Sigmar is born as a man and is JUST a man, no matter how remarkable he is. He is not physically different from his comrades, beyond being a better warrior and bears no resemblance to a space marine, never mind a primarch.

This was just a piece of recent fluff. Back in the day (15 years ago or so) at my local games workshop this is what the general idea was. Also to top it off, we would sometimes play fantasy games and "warp" in chaos space marines (3 or 4) and continue play. The recent books describing Sigmar as simply human are almost a completely new look at him.

[Sonikgav]

Yeah to be fair the old Background was happy to admit the Warhammer World was a planet in the 40k universe however when 40k took off as well as it did they decided to seperate them into their own universes to avoid just such story complications.

Sigmar has become the Fantasy representation of the Emperor rather than a Primarch though it was hinted as you said. Who the other one was has always been debated though.

AS they seperated that idea was thrown out, though always hung around and the extra chapters were said to be placeholders for your own created chapters, to encourage people to get creative and imaginitive with back stories for their forces. There's 2 of these to allow 1 loyalist and 1 chaos.

[Wildeybeast]

Maybe you guys have been playing fantasy longer than me, but I've been playing Empire for about 20 years and the fluff on Sigmar has not changed at all in that time, merely expanded. And I'm not aware of any old background which mentions the Warhammer world being in the 40K one, perhaps you could quote and source this.

[Sonikgav]

It was more on the 40k side of the fluff than Warhammer. They didnt want Machine Guns and Power Armor getting into fantasy and it was mostly the very early Rogue Trader stuff that hinted towards it all.

Its the reason they got rid of the Squats etc, to deliberately distance the two games so it wasnt a simple case of 'Space Elves', 'Space Dwarves', 'Space Orks' etc.

I may have exaggerated in that it wasnt ever 'admitted' but it was heavily hinted at. Even Sigmars emblem, the two tailed comet was suspected of not being a herald of his coming, but actually how he arrived on the 'Warhammer World' that it was some sort of crashing pod/ship.

As of now, youre right, dont worry theyve done the work of affirming Sigmars background so that it removes any of those old suspicions but they were definitely there in the beginning.

[Kataklysm]

It was more on the 40k side of the fluff than Warhammer. They didnt want Machine Guns and Power Armor getting into fantasy and it was mostly the very early Rogue Trader stuff that hinted towards it all.

Its the reason they got rid of the Squats etc, to deliberately distance the two games so it wasnt a simple case of 'Space Elves', 'Space Dwarves', 'Space Orks' etc.

I may have exaggerated in that it wasnt ever 'admitted' but it was heavily hinted at. Even Sigmars emblem, the two tailed comet was suspected of not being a herald of his coming, but actually how he arrived on the 'Warhammer World' that it was some sort of crashing pod/ship.

As of now, youre right, dont worry theyve done the work of affirming Sigmars background so that it removes any of those old suspicions but they were definitely there in the beginning.

Yeah it was about rogue trader era when this was really popular. Im glad someone else remember this, and those poor abused squats.

side note: anyone want to buy some old squat attack bikes?

[Wildeybeast]

It was more on the 40k side of the fluff than Warhammer. They didnt want Machine Guns and Power Armor getting into fantasy and it was mostly the very early Rogue Trader stuff that hinted towards it all.

Its the reason they got rid of the Squats etc, to deliberately distance the two games so it wasnt a simple case of 'Space Elves', 'Space Dwarves', 'Space Orks' etc.

I may have exaggerated in that it wasnt ever 'admitted' but it was heavily hinted at. Even Sigmars emblem, the two tailed comet was suspected of not being a herald of his coming, but actually how he arrived on the 'Warhammer World' that it was some sort of crashing pod/ship.

As of now, youre right, dont worry theyve done the work of affirming Sigmars background so that it removes any of those old suspicions but they were definitely there in the beginning.

I see, thanks for clarifying, I didn't pick up 40K until 3rd ed. With Fantasy being already established, I can see why they would hint at it, but I'm glad they have removed all trace from both universes.

[mjasghar]

Bit more complicated.
Squats - nobody could be arsed to think something up for them, and nobody wanted to buy lots of expensive, fiddly and heavy bike models. The fact the designer gave them a dodgy primary colour scheme added to it. Having said that look at the first steam tank models. But, no one vould think of a wat to make them grimdark, and i think they felt that having techpriests cyborg types was more that way.
As for totally divorcing wfb from 40k, well 40k doesn't refer to it (well maybe some hints i've forgotten, mainlhy on lizard llike descendants of old ones) but wfb has really pushed them. Mainly as Lizardmen are such a big part of the mythos now, we have lots of refrences to old ones and their plan.
Indeed, the warhammer world is said to be a crucial part of their cosmoc plan. Refs to orcs being brought by spores. Even sometimes using the term Ork gods not Orc. There does seem to be a disasociation with the Fall causing the gate to collapse.
In the AoL novel Godking, Sigmar is shown there are other worlds by Nagash.

[Kataklysm]

Bit more complicated.
Squats - nobody could be arsed to think something up for them, and nobody wanted to buy lots of expensive, fiddly and heavy bike models. The fact the designer gave them a dodgy primary colour scheme added to it. Having said that look at the first steam tank models. But, no one vould think of a wat to make them grimdark, and i think they felt that having techpriests cyborg types was more that way.
As for totally divorcing wfb from 40k, well 40k doesn't refer to it (well maybe some hints i've forgotten, mainlhy on lizard llike descendants of old ones) but wfb has really pushed them. Mainly as Lizardmen are such a big part of the mythos now, we have lots of refrences to old ones and their plan.
Indeed, the warhammer world is said to be a crucial part of their cosmoc plan. Refs to orcs being brought by spores. Even sometimes using the term Ork gods not Orc. There does seem to be a disasociation with the Fall causing the gate to collapse.
In the AoL novel Godking, Sigmar is shown there are other worlds by Nagash.



Oh snap the rumor still lives!!!

[Wildeybeast]

Bit more complicated.
Squats - nobody could be arsed to think something up for them, and nobody wanted to buy lots of expensive, fiddly and heavy bike models. The fact the designer gave them a dodgy primary colour scheme added to it. Having said that look at the first steam tank models. But, no one vould think of a wat to make them grimdark, and i think they felt that having techpriests cyborg types was more that way.
As for totally divorcing wfb from 40k, well 40k doesn't refer to it (well maybe some hints i've forgotten, mainlhy on lizard llike descendants of old ones) but wfb has really pushed them. Mainly as Lizardmen are such a big part of the mythos now, we have lots of refrences to old ones and their plan.
Indeed, the warhammer world is said to be a crucial part of their cosmoc plan. Refs to orcs being brought by spores. Even sometimes using the term Ork gods not Orc. There does seem to be a disasociation with the Fall causing the gate to collapse.
In the AoL novel Godking, Sigmar is shown there are other worlds by Nagash.

All good points, but not a single one suggests that it is the 40K universe, merely that GW wants consistency with the origins of greenskins/is too lazy to come up with different ideas. After all Necrons are TK in space, DE are DE in space etc. As a counter point, we have magic. No world in the 40K universe has magic. You can make plenty of points for, but ultimately there is no clear evidence that they are in the same universe. They could be in different universes, but things like Orcs and Old Ones cross the dimensions.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

All good points, but not a single one suggests that it is the 40K universe, merely that GW wants consistency with the origins of greenskins/is too lazy to come up with different ideas. After all Necrons are TK in space, DE are DE in space etc. As a counter point, we have magic. No world in the 40K universe has magic. You can make plenty of points for, but ultimately there is no clear evidence that they are in the same universe. They could be in different universes, but things like Orcs and Old Ones cross the dimensions.

Also the Daemon Special Characters are exactly the same with no deviation.

Couldn't you suggest that magic is just a medieval view of the Psychic energies of the warp? I mean, you could argue either way, but psychic energy is most likely refferred to as magic on the now black powder stage worlds (for lack of better description)... But yeah, just being devils advocate :).

[Jmaximum]

I can unfortunately dispell this theory. The grey knight were originally formed from survivor marines from a few of the traitor legions after istavaan that didnt turn traitor with the rest. so that debunks that.

Yeah this was revealed in one of the Audiobooks (the name escapes me right now).



*spoiler alert********************************************* ********************************




















The reveal that Loken survived the virus bombing of Istvaan was pretty cool! And that he gets taken in to help form the Inquisition.

[DarkDesigner]

Also the Daemon Special Characters are exactly the same with no deviation.

Couldn't you suggest that magic is just a medieval view of the Psychic energies of the warp? I mean, you could argue either way, but psychic energy is most likely refferred to as magic on the now black powder stage worlds (for lack of better description)... But yeah, just being devils advocate :).

I always figured that they are the same universe, but different timelines. Something in the region of 40,000 years...

The warhammer world is terra, but before mankind expand as much as they do and chase all the other races off it. You could theorise that Sigmar is the Emperor - in some of the HH novels it's said that the Emperor guided humanity's fate from behind the scenes for centuries before becoming it's leader, who's to say he hadn't done that before as well, or perhaps that this was his first life.

The whole thing came about because 40K wasn't originally written as a separate game, but as an expansion to Warhammer. So it's not laziness that the Old Ones and the Chaos Gods are the same, just that the background was set down from the start, and why would you want to come up with a whole new universe when you can just transpose your existing one 40 millenia into the future.

My personal favourite theories about the 2 missing legions are that one is psychic (possibly psychic nulls) and the other is female (you're creating 20 superhumans representing the best of humanity and not one is a woman?).

[spaceman91]

i don't know if this was mentioned before or not so, I'm sorry if it is. In the HH book first heretic did it not hint at that one of the lost legion had been merged with the ultrasmurfs.