Stubborn unit with non-stubborn IC

[Ulf]

Situation:

Squad of Ogryns (LD 7 with bone 'ead, stubborn) is joined by a Primaris Psyker (LD 9). They loose close combat, so they have to check morale.

Question: What is the Leadership they have to roll against?

Here is what I have figured out so far:

The rules on stubborn state that it can be conferred by an IC to a unit it joins, but nothing about a unit conffering it to the IC, so I'd say the Psyker is not considered stubborn.

IC rules say that the highest LD in a unit is used when checking leadership. 9>7, so they have to test on the Psykers LD.

Does that mean that the Ogryns eventually loose their stubbornness?

[Masked Thespian]

Stubborn is not one of those rules where a character joining a unit without it loses it or vice versa (in fact, as you stated, a Stubborn Character will grant his Stubborn rule onto a unit he joins).

The unit must always use the highest Leadership available to it (page 8 of the rulebook). Therefore, if they ever have to make an unmodified Leadership check or a check at -1 (having lost close combat by 1, for example) then they will use the Psyker's Leadership of 9 (modified to 8 in the latter case). But if they ever lose a combat by 2 or more then the Ogryn's Stubborn Leadership will be higher than the Psyker's modified Leadership and will be used instead.

You're actually getting the best of both worlds in this case; Leadership 9 for regular checks but it cannot be reduced below 7, regardless of how badly you lose combat by

[Ulf]

The unit must always use the highest Leadership available to it (page 8 of the rulebook). Therefore, if they ever have to make an unmodified Leadership check or a check at -1 (having lost close combat by 1, for example) then they will use the Psyker's Leadership of 9 (modified to 8 in the latter case). But if they ever lose a combat by 2 or more then the Ogryn's Stubborn Leadership will be higher than the Psyker's modified Leadership and will be used instead.


It says "always use the one with the highest LD value", which should be the Psyker, as the modification to the LD check does not really lower his LD characteristic.

[Masked Thespian]

It says "always use the one with the highest LD value", which should be the Psyker, as the modification to the LD check does not really lower his LD characteristic.

Morale Check Modifiers, on page 43 of the rulebook, states that the Leadership modifiers can "reduce the unit's Leadership by -1, -2 or sometimes even more"; the modifiers DO lower his Leadership (albeit temporarily) so he is no longer the highest Leadership in the unit.

[BuFFo]

Situation:

Squad of Ogryns (LD 7 with bone 'ead, stubborn) is joined by a Primaris Psyker (LD 9). They loose close combat, so they have to check morale.

Question: What is the Leadership they have to roll against?

You use the Psyker's LD of 9


Does that mean that the Ogryns eventually loose their stubbornness?

Yes it does. You are testing using a non stubborn model's LD, which can be modified.

So if you take a -5 LD, you must use the Psyker's LD of 9. You are now testing on a LD of 4.

You can't switch back to the LD of 7. You are already doing the test using the Psyker.

This isn't hot potato.

[Sam]

Unless marked by an asterisk in the BRB, no special rule is lost by a unit join by an independent character that does not have the rule themselves. Stubborn is not marked by an asterisk, so no, they do not lose it.

Stubborn: "While taking Morale tests, stubborn units always ignore any negative Leadership modifiers."

When taking Morale tests, they must use the highest Leadership in the unit (9), and they ignore and negative modifiers. It is never stated that they only ignore modifiers to their own Leadership, but rather that they ignore ANY negative modifiers. Therefore they will always take Morale tests at an unmodified Leadership 9. That is, until they get into close combat and the independent character is killed.

[Dingareth]

You use the Psyker's LD of 9



Yes it does. You are testing using a non stubborn model's LD, which can be modified.

So if you take a -5 LD, you must use the Psyker's LD of 9. You are now testing on a LD of 4.

You can't switch back to the LD of 7. You are already doing the test using the Psyker.

This isn't hot potato.

This is hot potato though, the Psyker tells them to run away, and the Bone Head respectfully disagrees. It makes no sense to use Leadership 5, when there is Leadership 7 in the squad, because as you say you always use the highest leadership, including modifiers. The same sort of thing applies in Fantasy for Stubborn units.

[Culven]

The Stubborn USR applies to the unit. What is the unit? It is an Ogryn unit which happens to have an IC joined. IMO, the Primaris Psyker's LD would be used, but it would not be modified since the entire unit is Stubborn.