If You Owned A Redacted Hammer, What Would You Kill?

[MrBo]

So lets say you just bought GW.
You have ultimate say of what is fluff and what isnt.
What One piece of fluff, race,character,battle etc. would you retcon out of existence? Edit;(or as Daboarder suggested, slightly change)

Me? Probably Dark Eldar ,I've never understood their motives and can't get my head around whether they should be enslaved to slannesh or what-not.

Anyways what do you think? Thanks for looking!

[daboarder]

....I don't think I'd kill anything, people have spent a lot of money on this hobby.

I'd change some things

For example I'd make Draigo more of a lancelot and less of a galahad, A wandering soul beset by doubts and questions, a flawed pilgrim who is unflinching in his faith but stil questions the point of it all.

Basically I'd turn him into 40ks version of david gemmels jerusalem man

[evilamericorp]

Robin Crud-face is fired. I will write the new Nid rules.

[GrauGeist]

Necrons.

Unoriginal in concept, un-fun to play against in any incarnation. Just say no.

[Sly]

Necrons. I wouldn't remove them, but I would change their concept to be copied from Fred Saberhagen's Berzerker machines. The current mish-mash of machine and living souls just doesn't work for me.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Squats.
Oh wait, problem solved!
Seriously though, not much. I'm with boarder on the grey knights, they need more knight and less MarySue.
Other than that, some of the stuff in the old Ian Watson and GS Goto novels needs a small amount of ban-hammer, but nothing much else springs to mind.

[MrBo]

Hey, Nice answers all, i didn't mean just races to dissolve though, like originally I was going to say Ban Hammer Marneus,just because i hate him lol. But after thinking about it , I decided on the the DE, mind you that doesn't mean everyone has to choose a race to destroy ;)
Daboarder had the idea with just a simple twist to existing fluff.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I'd like to revert Necrons to their last form; the setting already has enough human-emotion-aliens races.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Orks back to loopy galactic trouble makers on a drunken Mad Max bender. No more +10 grimdark infinitely repeating space fungus.
Necrons back to mysterious Egyptian Terminators. No more +10 grimdark billions-strong sleeping empire.
Everything Graham McNeill wrote about the Ultramarines and the Codex Astartes. Put them back to Rick Priestley-era fluff.
The entire Horus Heresy series. Sounded like a good idea at the time and it started off pretty good, but it's a bloated mess now. Better off as the mostly-mysterious long long ago.
Alpharius/Omegon Twin Primarchs. Ridiculous notion, all the way around.
Black Templars worshipping the Emprah and being best buddies with the Sisters and the Eclessiarchy.

[phreakachu]

Dark Eldar are sweet! theyre that crazy mustachioed villain of the 40k 'verse, not so much bent on taking over everything, but intent on tying the damsel to the traintracks to catch the 4pm out of Albuquerque for the sheer hell of it... they get to stay. Besides, i think theyre gonna see their end when Khan gets bored with being their prisoner.

No, the Ultramariness would get booted from the limelight.... Marneus dead, and Irenaus, 1st Company captain, Gets the honcho spot. This of course puts the douche-Captain Sicarius on the fast track to getting all sorts of butthurt, culminating in selling his soul to Slaanesh due to his intolerable pride, splintering the Ultras in a civil war as half follow the new Chapter-master Irenaus, and half rally to the newly minted Chaos Lord Sicarius.

The ensuing conflict would decimate the Loaylist and Traitor Ultras. Id make it a summer world wide campaign, with an attached novel and a paper book that came out before the digital version, and that included a free download of the digital version, and in the small print in all of the copyright info, at the very end of it all, id put in the line:

F**k you Ultrasmurfs fans... F**K YOU

Then id hold a public execution of Johnson, Cruddace and Bob from the Mail Room (better to be feared than loved).

[Captain Bubonicus]

...I have a confession to make. I've never been comfortable with the Tau. Every other army is just Warhammer Fantasy translated into space: space elves, space dwarves, space orks, space Reiksgard knights, space undead, etc...

The Tyranids don't really fit the "fantasy in space" mold, but they've been around in 40K since the beginning so they get a pass.

But the Tau? They're not grimdark. They're not fantasy. They're basically kawaii little Macross anime aliens. I felt like they got shoehorned into 40K because they needed another army to sell, and they figured "hey, the kids sure do love this Japanime stuff. Let's copy the style and sell 'em a shoebox full."

I wouldn't axe them...but I kinda wish they'd never been included in the first place.

[daboarder]

tau have evolved though, there less galactic hippies these days and more imperialist japan, with a big chunk of naivete added for good measure.

[Arkhan Land]

axe to nothing, this is a good universe as it stands! enough races for me to love and play enough races for me to disdain and play against!

[John Bower]

I'd kill off the whole '7' male only spess maehrens' fluff, changing it back to the old days of their armour giving them their strength and toughness and WS/BS through superior training.

[Psychosplodge]

Squats.
Oh wait, problem solved!

No I'd hit the bit where the 'nids ate the squats with the +5 hammer of retcon.

[Anggul]

I wouldn't remove any of the races, they all have their place. Yes, even the Tau. The very fact that they appear shiny and not-grimdark is what makes their more underhanded actions so very... 'off'. That and the fact that while they want everyone to join them, they'll happily use their shining light of knowledge and progress to blow you away for not agreeing with them. Variation in style is always good. People only think they don't fit 40k at all if they haven't actually read into their fluff and are just going on looks and internet jokes.

It's only little pieces of fluff that I would change, I wouldn't remove whole races. Things like the Doom of Malan'tai that make no sense with the rest of the fluff and aren't interesting. I'm glad it's gone from the game, but as a fan of both Tyranids and Eldar I wish they had just removed all mention of it and the death of Malan'tai entirely. It was an affront to the fluff of both races.

Speaking of Eldar, I would stop the ridiculous quantity of fluff about them doing exceedingly stupid things and getting their arses handed to them. They're better than that. Yes, they're a dying race, but they aren't dying because they keep on losing in fights, they're dying because there were relatively few of them left after the fall, the largest craftworld got mostly killed by Tyranids and they're having less and less children while more and more youths go off and become outcasts. It's their ability to foresee and to be absolutely deadly in battle that has kept them alive for this long. If the majority of the fluff mentioning the Eldar is to be believed, they all suck and should be long dead because they aren't capable of winning any kind of battle without losing most of their number. The whole point is that they fight in such a way that they aren't overly endangered and can win while taking minimal casualties. The reason Iyanden was mostly killed was that they were stuck in a war of attrition on their own turf. They had nowhere to dodge and feint and trick and kill, they just had to point guns and fight against an almost infinite swarm and that really isn't their deal. If they weren't already at home they would have fared much better, as evidenced by Yriel who swept in and destroyed the entire hive fleet. That's how the Eldar do things, but most of the fluff shows them attempting this and failing horribly.

I'm not for a moment suggesting that the Eldar always win, but to defeat the Eldar you play to their weaknesses not their strengths. If you play it their way and try to out-do them at the things they are masters of, you're probably going to lose. They are an ancient and deadly race who know what they're doing. If you hold fast, don't give an inch and have enough men, you can drive them off as a war of attrition where the enemy won't break isn't something they're suited to unless they're breaking out the really big guns so that they can just blow you away, and that isn't always an option, especially if you have really big guns of your own and your supplies to them haven't already been cut off.

The issue is that GW don't seem to get this any more, despite being the ones who made them in the first place. They just think: 'Hey the Eldar are a dying and tragic race, let's have them sucking and losing all of the time.' That doesn't make for good and interesting story, and doesn't make sense given how long they've survived. If they just thought about it they could have some amazing stories, but instead it's just: 'They tried to do this. They lost.' or 'They tried to do this. They did it, but lost out massively by doing so.' That isn't tragic, that isn't the flickering flame burning brightly to the end to finally flicker out in the darkness, that's boring, repetitive and makes anyone reading question what's so great about this ancient and powerful race and how they've managed to survive this long.

[eldargal]

Me? Probably Dark Eldar ,I've never understood their motives and can't get my head around whether they should be enslaved to slannesh or what-not
It's not that hard to understand: they want to torture you to death while masturbating for the lulz.

As to changing things, I'm just going to second everything Anggul said about Eldar.

[Mr Mystery]

I'd hammer out the Eldar.

Because some men like to watch the world burn, or hear nerds rage :p

(yes, this is a non-serious post)

[Morgrim]

I'd wipe Saint Celestine as a HQ and SoB miracles from the table. I have no objection at all to the Sisters existing, and having a cult of incredibly devout and well equipped warrior nuns with insane faith works just fine. But humans are not orks and believing really hard in something should not result in it happening. Being fearless or ignoring pain due to having psyched yourself up are plausible but 'the Emperor did it!' doesn't feel like enough justification for people rising from the dead. If the Emperor had somehow regained that much power in the warp I think assisting the SoB would not be high on his list of priorities and Sonritas aren't potent latent psykers like orks.

[eldargal]

believing really hard in something should not result in it happening.
...

But that is one of the defining characteristics of the 40k setting. Seriously that is literally the foundation of how the warp works. Believe in something enough and it might happen.

Edit: Also not sure why the Emperor would have things better to do than try and preserve the lives of his most loyal servants. I mean half the Space Marines fell to Chaos and god knows how many Guard, screw those guys.

[bfmusashi]

Daemons disappear when you kill them again.

[Mr Mystery]

I'd wipe Saint Celestine as a HQ and SoB miracles from the table. I have no objection at all to the Sisters existing, and having a cult of incredibly devout and well equipped warrior nuns with insane faith works just fine. But humans are not orks and believing really hard in something should not result in it happening. Being fearless or ignoring pain due to having psyched yourself up are plausible but 'the Emperor did it!' doesn't feel like enough justification for people rising from the dead. If the Emperor had somehow regained that much power in the warp I think assisting the SoB would not be high on his list of priorities and Sonritas aren't potent latent psykers like orks.

Assuming of course it is The Emperor giving the power....

[Morgrim]

...

But that is one of the defining characteristics of the 40k setting. Seriously that is literally the foundation of how the warp works. Believe in something enough and it might happen.

Edit: Also not sure why the Emperor would have things better to do than try and preserve the lives of his most loyal servants. I mean half the Space Marines fell to Chaos and god knows how many Guard, screw those guys.

I don't think he'd consider SoB 'his most loyal servants', they're the protectors of the Ecleciarchy who strongly shout about a faith he tried hard to stamp out (namely worshipping him). The majority of their attacks in fluff seem to be against 'heretics', and while fighting demons is definitely in the interest of humanity many heretics aren't worshipping them. It seems the Emperor would be more likely to support Astartes (who have the superior threat multiplication against outside dangers), Guard (who do the vast majority of the work) or any aspects of the Inquisition that are currently pointing in the direction that he wants (given they have the ability to bring all of the above to bear).

And yes I know the warp responds to emotion, but the way it responds to the Sisters doesn't seem to match the way it responds to every other race in fluff. Humans are known for having controlled psykers and being rather good at identifying them out of sheer self preservation; what the Sisters do on the table just seems jarring when linked to the rest. That's why I think they should still believe that their faith grants them miracles but tone down the actually-divine looking stuff on the tabletop.

[eldargal]

Half the Astartes turned traitor, not a good track record. Ditto for Guard. The SoB on the other hand are genuinely loyal, far fewer have fallen to Chaos and the founders of the main Orders got an audience with the Emperor at his request. I actually think most people don't realise the main issue with the Space Marines is that they failed the Emperor. The Primarch experiment was a failure and half the Space Marines betrayed the Emperor to his immortal enemies and took a good proportion of the Imperial Army and AdMech with them. they were supposed to help usher in and protect a new age of enlightenment and they failed in that too. Worth noting that while the SoB are technically the militant of the Ecclesiarchy they believe they serve the Emperor and again the first Sisters turned on the false Ecclesiarch and killed him when it was revealed he was going against the Emperors will. Revealed by the Emperor.

SoB believe fervently their Saints can 'come back from the dead' so they do. Maybe they aren't technically dead and it is some kind of faith healing (that, you know, actually works). It really isn't anmore jarring as mushroom gods stomping people and whatnot in my opinion.

[Arkhan Land]

...

But that is one of the defining characteristics of the 40k setting. Seriously that is literally the foundation of how the warp works. Believe in something enough and it might happen.

Oh no, children help me the emperor's dying! Clap your hands if you believe Deities!

[eldargal]

Oh no, children help me the emperor's dying! Clap your hands if you believe Deities!
Great now I'm imagining the Emperor as Tinkerbell.

[bfmusashi]

Oh no, children help me the emperor's dying! Clap your hands if you believe Deities!

Isn't this what the Ecclesiarchy is?

[Arkhan Land]

Isn't this what the Ecclesiarchy is?

its more like what the Schola Progenium is like, sort of a mixture of the lost boys and the class from Clavell's The Children's Story


Great now I'm imagining the Emperor as Tinkerbell.

Now imagine Peter Pan is a perpetual...

[eldargal]

The Emperor is in fact Tinkerbell who cast a powerful glamour on herself so that everyone who gazed upon her would perceive her as a 8ft tall muscle clad male. In this guise she unified earth blahblah 40k history blah
Headcanon accepted.

[Psychosplodge]

Some headcanons I could do without.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I'd wipe Saint Celestine as a HQ and SoB miracles from the table. .
Totally agree. Turning the Sisters into D&D Clerics was one of my least favorite of the fluff changes. I think it was part of the desperation move to try to make Sisters of Battle a desirable army after it failed to gain a fanbase in its original release. I agree the way the miracles work are totally inconsistent with the rest of the universe.

Honestly, I think Sisters of Battle need a major overhaul. Probably to the point where it's basically a new army. But I don't believe that GW actually has any interest in "throwing good money after bad" by trying to revitalize the Sisters model line anyway. The WD and e-codexes were low-cost customer service offerings so the existing models were still usable.



Half the Astartes turned traitor,.Half of the original Space Marines did. We've crunched the numbers in the past and the fluff seems to suggest a failure rate of 2-4% of Space Marines since the implementation of the Codex Astartes. When you consider twenty-something of the fallen Chapters are attributed to the ill-conceived Abyssal Crusade, the number that fail under normal circumstances is actually less than 1%.

[Cactus]

For rules, I'd add the "ask opponent to use named/special characters" back into the game. I hate 'em.

[John Bower]

Half the Astartes turned traitor, not a good track record. Ditto for Guard. The SoB on the other hand are genuinely loyal, far fewer have fallen to Chaos and the founders of the main Orders got an audience with the Emperor at his request. I actually think most people don't realise the main issue with the Space Marines is that they failed the Emperor. The Primarch experiment was a failure and half the Space Marines betrayed the Emperor to his immortal enemies and took a good proportion of the Imperial Army and AdMech with them. they were supposed to help usher in and protect a new age of enlightenment and they failed in that too. Worth noting that while the SoB are technically the militant of the Ecclesiarchy they believe they serve the Emperor and again the first Sisters turned on the false Ecclesiarch and killed him when it was revealed he was going against the Emperors will. Revealed by the Emperor.

SoB believe fervently their Saints can 'come back from the dead' so they do. Maybe they aren't technically dead and it is some kind of faith healing (that, you know, actually works). It really isn't anmore jarring as mushroom gods stomping people and whatnot in my opinion.

The fact it was only half is ridiculous, he created guys so far above humanity - from humans, yet only half went bad? Sorry IRL knowing human nature it would likely have been closer to 90% that said, 'hang on, humans are puny, we're the future, we're the best, they should be our slaves'.

[Bigred]

Reading the HH novels - while the Astartes are physically far superior they are almost childlike in other ways. They are emotionally stunted, and have really bad empathy and emotional understanding of non-astartes. Now they were made to be exceptionally loyal, so the heresy isn't so much about the loyalty of the individual Astartes, but the Primarches who they followed come hell or high water wherever they led.

Its the Primarchs who were given the strength of spirit to make bad choices - and half of them did.

It's interesting to compare the Astartes project to the Custodians (more skilled, individual warriors - not soldiers, not immortal, utterly loyal - no known traitors ever), and the ThunderWarriors (the most physically powerful, soldiers instead of warriors, short lifespans, inferior loyalty - several rebellions noted).

You can almost see the Emperor playing around with the Strength/Loyalty/Longevity/Discipline/sliders...

[Mr Mystery]

There's also the suggestion that the Astartes themselves were/are not the intended final product, but a 'best of the situation' following the scattering of the Primarchs.

[AdamHarry]

The Tyranids don't really fit the "fantasy in space" mold, but they've been around in 40K since the beginning so they get a pass.


Nid's are Space Lizardmen.

back in rogue trader they looked more like Space Lizards (look at the original Gaunt models). Over time they started looking more and more like Xenomorphs from Aliens (look at the old metal hormagaunts). Even the idea of the "big bugs" having psychic power over little guys is similar to the Slaan.

I'm not saying Slaan/Lizardmen are Tyranids. But Nids were Space Lizardmen.

[Charistoph]

I'd merge all the Space Marine codices back in to one, and then release Supplements for the First Foundings, Black Templars, and Angry Marines. Not necessarily in that order.

That would leave room for the Sisters to be fully developed in plastic (finally) and to bring in more books of "Aliens the Imperium has a hard time genociding."

I might even toss in the Mechanicum if everyone was being really good and eating their vegetables every night.

I would also rearrange model and book releases. Book releases would be when ADOS! material comes out. Between those releases, we'd see resprue'd stuff come out.

But most of all, axe the concept that Forgeworld and Games Workshop are separate entities by including the "OK for 40K" models in to codices written after they were introduced.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Reading the HH novels - while the Astartes are physically far superior they are almost childlike in other ways. They are emotionally stunted, and have really bad empathy and emotional understanding of non-astartes. Now they were made to be exceptionally loyal, so the heresy isn't so much about the loyalty of the individual Astartes, but the Primarches who they followed come hell or high water wherever they led.

Its the Primarchs who were given the strength of spirit to make bad choices - and half of them did.
Exactly. The failure of the Legions was based around a number of factors. Their loyalty to a tangible father figure (their Primarch) was among the biggest problems. The Legionary Space Marines were loyal to their Primarch first, and the Emprah second. The Legions were built around a cult of personality. So it ultimately came down to how loyal the Primarch was to the Emprah.

I mean, you can point out numerous examples of failure in the managing of the Space Marine legions. Leaving Angron in charge of tying his own shoes, let alone an entire legion, for example. But what the Codex Astartes did was remove that failure point. Guilliman was correct in identifying the problem with the Legions was that it required the absolute loyalty of an individual. The cult of personality was extraordinarily important to the effectiveness of the Space Marines, and the Codex quite obviously was designed around how to take the advantages of the system, and eliminate the flaws.

What the Codex organization does is eliminate the power of a single individual. Nobody in a Chapter, not even the Chapter Master, holds absolute control. The Space Marine Chapter has built-in checks and balances and oversight. Everyone watches everyone else because everyone in the Chapter has an agenda. At every level. Think about how Space Marines are recruited and trained. They get screened by the Librarium for psykers, the implantation process is handled by the Apothecarion, the religious and spiritual conditioning by the Chaplains, and the mental and physical training by Marines who are part of the chapter's traditional chain of command. So everybody has the job of ensuring that Marines are not corrupted.

Basically, what makes the Chapter superior to the Legion, in terms of loyalty to the Imperium, and thus reliability, is that nobody makes unquestioned decisions in a Chapter. A Chapter Master might be making command decisions for the Chapter, but if he's issuing orders that are heretical, it's certain that the Chaplains or Librarians are going to notice. Thus for a Chapter to be corrupted, it either needs to be so depleted that there is nobody left to dissent from certain elements, or the corruption has to be insinuated at all levels.

[Captain Bubonicus]

Nid's are Space Lizardmen.

back in rogue trader they looked more like Space Lizards (look at the original Gaunt models). Over time they started looking more and more like Xenomorphs from Aliens (look at the old metal hormagaunts). Even the idea of the "big bugs" having psychic power over little guys is similar to the Slaan.

I'm not saying Slaan/Lizardmen are Tyranids. But Nids were Space Lizardmen.

Actually - in the "Rogue Trader" days, 'Nids weren't Space Lizardmen. Space Slann were Space Lizardmen!

http://www.solegends.com/citrt/tsf18spaceslann.htm

[daboarder]

To paraphrase the 4th ed Nid designers notes'

Tyranids have always been space dinosaurs, its in the name TYRANid (tyranosaurus rex), therefore they made a conscious effort in model design to move away from the 3rd ed "alien" nids and back to the 2nd ed "dinosaur" style, with the concession of maintaining the rounded organic look and melded guns.

[mysterex]

I'd get rid of the current flyer rules - they make no sense in terms of scale. Given the size of the models they should pass over the table in a single movement phase. Under the current rules they can move as slow as a charging infantry model, ie 18" (6" + 12"). Then for some reason something that big that moves like a zepplin can only be hit on a 6.

It would have been better if they had been treated as a game effect like they were under the speed freeks list in codex Armageddon.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

No I'd hit the bit where the 'nids ate the squats with the +5 hammer of retcon.

God WHY?
They were the worst thing ever.
They were literally a self-masturbatory in-joke.
I'd rather have Matt Ward re-write the Ork book.

[Necron2.0]

Me? Probably Dark Eldar ,I've never understood their motives and can't get my head around whether they should be enslaved to slannesh or what-not.

I'm down with a twisted race of Eldar, who have a serious "blood sports" fetish, and are general all around jack-holes (I mean ... more so than the standard template version ;)).

The problem I have is the fluff doesn't match their game mechanics. According to the fluff, the DE live in fear of Slaanesh. As I understand it they hide in the webway in part to avoid contact with Slaanesh and his/her servants. They shun psykers for the same reason. As long as they live, their souls are slowly being sucked out of them to feed Slaanesh. When they die, their souls are consumed immediately by Slaanesh. For the DE, these aren't stories told to frighten children. These are facts that they live with and experience on a visceral level every damned day of their existence.

Add to this that the DE aren't the craftworlders who packed up the chuck wagons, their station wagons, their freakin' Winnebago (whatever you want to call them) and decided to rough it in deep space. The DE are the true inheritors of the ancient Eldar Empire. They are the home boys. If there were any nifty toys and technology to be had from the old Eldar, THEY would have them.

Now, bearing all that in mind, how do we see them going to battle? They come in flimsy, tissue-paper craft, wearing next to no armor, and usually charging headlong into hand-to-hand combat. NO! Hell no, that's not how they would do it. If the fluff were true, you would never see a DE on the battlefield. If you did, you might see maybe five - the HQ unit. Those would be so @#$! heavily armed and armored they'd make a dreadnought envious, and they would run like rabbits at the first sign of trouble. The rest of the army would be enslaved thralls - like servitors only better. No Slaanesh fearing DE would ever set foot outside the webway. They would never charge into battle heedlessly. They never seek out hand to hand combat. And they sure as hell would never go onto a battlefield without the absolutely best protection an eons old empire could provide.

[Psychosplodge]

The fact it was only half is ridiculous, he created guys so far above humanity - from humans, yet only half went bad? Sorry IRL knowing human nature it would likely have been closer to 90% that said, 'hang on, humans are puny, we're the future, we're the best, they should be our slaves'.

From Tumblr



HOLY **** THEY EAT CAPSAICIN FOR FUN

YOU GUYS I HEARD A HUMAN ONCE ATE AN AIRPLANE.

A HUMAN CAN KEEP FIGHTING FOR HOURS EVEN AFTER YOU SHOOT IT

humans are a proud warrior race with a pantheon of bloody gods: Ram-Bo, Schwarzenegger, etc.

REMOVING A LIMB WILL NOT FATALLY INCAPACITATE HUMANS: ALWAYS DESTROY THE HEAD.

WARNING: HUMANS CAN DETECT YOU EVEN AT NIGHT BY TRACKING VIBRATIONS THROUGH THE ATMOSPHERE

WARNING: HUMANS CAN REPRODUCE AT A RATE OF 1 PER SPACEYEAR. DESTROY INFESTATIONS IMMEDIATELY

THE HUMAN MOUTH HAS OVER THIRTY OUTCROPS OF BONE AND POWERFUL JAW MUSCLES.

HUMAN BITES CAN BE FATALLY INFECTIOUS EVEN TO OTHER HUMANS

WARNING: HUMANS CAN AND WILL USE IMPROVISED WEAPONS. SEE CLASSIFIED DATA LABELED J. CHAN.

HUMANS CAN PROJECT BIOWEAPONS FROM ALMOST EVERY ORIFICE ON THEIR BODY. DO NOT INHALE

OH GOD THE HUMANS FIGURED OUT DOOR HANDLES OH GOD OH GOD



More seriously, humans do have a number of advantages even among Terrestrial life. Our endurance, shock resistance, and ability to recover from injury is absurdly high compared to almost any other animal. We often use the phrase “healthy as a horse” to connote heartiness - but compared to a human, a horse is as fragile as spun glass. There’s mounting evidence that our primitive ancestors would hunt large prey simply by following it at a walking pace, without sleep or rest, until it died of exhaustion; it’s called pursuit predation. Basically, we’re the Terminator.

(The only other animal that can sort of keep up with us? Dogs. That’s why we use them for hunting. And even then, it’s only “sort of”.)

Now extrapolate that to a galaxy in which most sapient life did not evolve from hyper-specialised pursuit predators:

Our strength and speed is nothing to write home about, but we don’t need to overpower or outrun you. We just need to outlast you - and by any other species’ standards, we just plain don’t get tired.
Where a simple broken leg will cause most species to go into shock and die, we can recover from virtually any injury that’s not immediately fatal. Even traumatic dismemberment isn’t necessarily a career-ending injury for a human.
We heal from injuries with extreme rapidity, recovering in weeks from wounds that would take others months or years to heal. The results aren’t pretty - humans have hyperactive scar tissue, among our other survival-oriented traits - but they’re highly functional.
Speaking of scarring, look at our medical science. We developed surgery centuries before developing even the most rudimentary anesthetics or life support. In extermis, humans have been known to perform surgery on themselves - and survive. Thanks to our extreme heartiness, we regard as routine medical procedures what most other species would regard as inventive forms of murder. We even perform radical surgery on ourselves for purely cosmetic reasons.




Our jaws have too many TEETH in them, so we developed a way to WELD METAL TO OUR TEETH and FORCE THE BONES IN OUR JAW to restructure over the course of years to fit them back into shape, and then we continue to wear metal in out mouths to keep them in place.

We formed cohabitative relationships with tiny mammals and insects we keep at bay from bothering us by death, often using little analouge traps.

And by god, we will eat anything.




God WHY?
They were the worst thing ever.
They were literally a self-masturbatory in-joke.
I'd rather have Matt Ward re-write the Ork book.

Because they amuse me, and biker dwarves looked cool.
And that's a low blow. Matt Ward? Really?

[Al Shut]

NO! Hell no, that's not how they would do it.

You forget one important thing: They're nuts.


If I had a hammer it would fall on Eldrad Ulthran. Not sure how I feel about him being alive but he shouldn't be 10.000 years old. I always thought that took away from the quasi-immortality of the exarchs and phoenix lords.

[FireHazard]

Nid special characters. They gots to go. Just... no.

I'd fold the Imperium forces into 3 main books: Astartes, Guard, everyone else. Give the Inquisition back their mystery and GK their rarity.

No more marines being besties with xenos. SUFFER NOT THE ALIEN TO LIVE.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

When they die, their souls are consumed immediately by Slaanesh. For the DE, these aren't stories told to frighten children. These are facts that they live with and experience on a visceral level every damned day of their existence.Well, the latest 'dex did add a line about how they can be revived through the magic of torturing someone else if the Haemonculi have a deal with them. (Although it would certainly make sense for them to only want to fight their wars through proxy!)

Still, I wouldn't mind the Eldar/Dark Eldar to have a bit of a retcon about their chosen methods of soul retrieval being wireless. A Craftworld Eldar's soul-stone transmitting the soul to the Infinity Circuit upon death (only storing if the Circuit's out of range), or all Dark Eldar leaving fragments of their flesh with the Haemonculi before entering realspace, to "tether" their souls.

[Pyredragon]

I always like these threads when they pop up. I think it has something to do with my favorite comics being 'what if' stories. So what would I change if I had a 'magic hammer' at GW...

Well first things first, no author who actively hates an army is allowed to write for them or offer input on their design, to prevent certain biased muck ups.

Matt Ward would have to continue his writing classes. I think he's improved, I actually liked codex Necrons fluff myself. Rules wise, yeah their definitely still broken but his fluff is improving. Maybe I could have Dan Abbnet to tutor him for the next Grey Knights codex.

Third, the Eldar and DE would be retconned back to being at each others throats and the ally matrix would list them as 'Come the apocalypse'. I never understood that, sure yes the race is dieing but I liked it better when Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar both pointed at each other and screamed they were an anathema to their race as a whole and actively sought to end and undermine one another.

Finally the Tau's ally matrix would be fixed as well. Their battlebrothers would change from 'Space Marines' to 'Imperial Guard' as most fluff is far more fitting that starving, barely trained, terrified soldiers would be more than willing to side with them over towering eight foot tall xenocidal hate marines who have been brainwashed to suffer not the alien.

[eldargal]

You forget one important thing: They're nuts.


If I had a hammer it would fall on Eldrad Ulthran. Not sure how I feel about him being alive but he shouldn't be 10.000 years old. I always thought that took away from the quasi-immortality of the exarchs and phoenix lords.
I would agree actually. Not retconning Eldrad but not making him 10,000 years old. It just seemed that instead of building up an ldar character in the HH period to fulfill the role Eldrad did they just thought 'screw it, let's just use Eldrad'.


... or all Dark Eldar leaving fragments of their flesh with the Haemonculi before entering realspace, to "tether" their souls.
Well a lot already do that, it's just a bit pricey which makes sense. I actually headcanon it as another way the kabals perpetuate their own power. Join a kabal and you get the equivalent of DE life insurance but you become part of the system which perpetuates the power of the archons and Vect in particular. Don't and you run the risk of dying every time you go to realspace to raid for a bit of cash.

[Mr Mystery]

I wouldn't mind Eldrad being revealed a sort of Phoenix Lord of Farseers. I can't think of a reason why that system wouldn't work?

[lattd]

Yea eldrad being a phoenix lord for farseers would make the story a lot more interesting and just much more in line with the pathway system.

[Mr Mystery]

Also kind of ties in with what happened with the Blackstone.

The soulstones he handed out contained previous 'hosts' of Eldrad. When he snuffed it, at least some survived. Recover his suit, reinstall, and you have at least some form of 'backup' Eldrad.

I quite like this theory!

[eldargal]

So Eldrad Ulthran is the Phoenix Lord of Farseers and the Emperor is Tinkerbell.

Headcanon accepted!

[DWest]

The thing with 40k The World vs. 40k The Game is what we play is technically an extreme exception to the rule.
We don't play out on the tabletop the battles where a Ork mob has to run 10km on foot while the Imperial Guard pummels them with artillery the whole way.
We don't play out on the tabletop the instances where the Dark Eldar fall out of the Webway onto an unprotected ag-colony of helpless twits and play "who can kick Farmer John's head furthers off his shoulders"
We don't play out on the tabletop where a planetary governor goes "y'know, Chaos doesn't sound like that bad a deal" and then a Drop Pod full of Ultramarines smashes down into his garden and he receives reeducation-by-bolter.

Large, face-to-face slugfests are not something anybody (save maybe Tyranids and Khorn Berzerkers) wants to have happen, but sometimes they happen anyway, which is what we play out.

[MrBo]

So Eldrad Ulthran is the Phoenix Lord of Farseers and the Emperor is Tinkerbell.

Headcanon accepted!

This was sooo worth starting the post for,(there's a sig in there somewhere lol) a true gem! =D
And TBH headcanon for me as well, i quite like the idea of eldrad being a Phoenix Lord, it all kind of makes sense now.

[Mr Mystery]

You is welcome,

Signed,

My Brain.

[Phototoxin]

Kill spiritual liege UM fanwank.
Revert necrons to terminator-ness (keep some of the new units though!)
Make drago less mary sue-ish
De-homogenise chaos so that each legion is a bit different-er in the codex (option for legion-terminators, options for NL terror, IW artillery etc)
Leave far sight enclaves as a footnote (you can take far sight in a tau army to represent an enclave, the end)
Remove sisters as the punching bag of the fluff writers. Integrate them with black templars in a 'witch hunters' codex.

[eldargal]

Integrate them with black templars in a 'witch hunters' codex.
Oh **** no. Leave BT where they are and give the SoB their own book. They have no more business being together than the SoB and Inquisition did.

[Psychosplodge]

Grey knights, deathwatch, assassins, inquisitors etc should go back to an Imperial agents type book of single units that can ally with any imperial codex

[bfmusashi]

Yea eldrad being a phoenix lord for farseers would make the story a lot more interesting and just much more in line with the pathway system.

Doesn't this mean he's an animated suit of armor that is also filled with crystal? 'cause that would be kind of fun and 40k is totally serious business.

[Charistoph]

Oh **** no. Leave BT where they are and give the SoB their own book. They have no more business being together than the SoB and Inquisition did.

Actually SoB and Inquisition make more sense than BT and SoB, if nothing else, an Inquisitor could call on the SoB a lot easier than calling in a Marine Company.

But yeah, BT are regular marines, awesome regular marines, but still regular marines.

[Veteran Sergeant]

The Black Templars and Sisters being bestest buds was always just crappy writing anyway. Lazy authors making inexperienced writer mistakes.

"Oh, these guys are religious themed and so are these guys! And they both work for the Imperium. That should make them good friends, right?"

Now, let's reword that.

"Okay, these guys are really religious, and so are these guys. And they both believe in God and Jesus as the savior. That should make Protestants and Catholics best of friends right?"

Slightly re-word it to say Sunni and Shiite, and the word of Muhammed, lol.


The reality is that the Black Templars (in the old fluff) were crazy psychos. They were the Pentacostals of 40K. They'd get all worked up at the coaxing of their leaders, and then somebody would spaz out and start speaking in tongues. The guy who had the most righteous delusional episode was made into the Emperor's Champion, and given a giant sword. But the Space Marines have traditions that are 10,000 years old. They don't follow the divinity of the Emperor as a deity, they just worship him the way obsessed fans worship pro athletes or movie stars, lol.


The Sisters, on other hand, even before they became stupid D&D clerics were absolutely convinced of the Emperor as a divine entity. They worshiped him as an actual god. They were also the galaxy's Internal Affairs. The busybodies who stuck their nose in everyone else's business.

Space Marines already hate people sticking their nose into their business. Now, imagine you're the Black Templars, one of the most rule-breaking entities in the Imperium. You have far more Space Marines than you're supposed to. You control far more fleets than you're supposed to. You're basically running the Imperium's largest illegal army. The last thing you're going to want hanging around you are Sisters of Battle, the galactic tattletales.

Even with the retcon to make the Black Templars God-Emprah worshipping lamesauces, they still probably wouldn't want to hang out with the Sisters of Battle.

[Eldar_Atog]

Third, the Eldar and DE would be retconned back to being at each others throats and the ally matrix would list them as 'Come the apocalypse'. I never understood that, sure yes the race is dieing but I liked it better when Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar both pointed at each other and screamed they were an anathema to their race as a whole and actively sought to end and undermine one another.


While I agree that the Craftworld Eldar would be loathe to align themselves with the Kabals in any official capacity, the corsair fleets tend to be less rigid. You can see this laid out pretty well in the Path of the Outcast book. You have a group of rangers, a group of kabalites, and some harliquins making a run into the Eye of Terror together in search of spirit stones.

I see it like this.. the craftworlders and kabalites are not going to see eye to eye on a lot of things but they can work together. Especially against the lesser races...

[Morgrim]

It seems most of the time that Craftworlders and Kabalites work together it is due to the Harlequins prodding them to do so, which makes sense because the Harlequins wish to eventually reunite the races and draw their members from all eldar societies. It helps that both sides are actually somewhat frightened of them.

I did like the DE codex having one of the kabals refusing to admit this and saying they helped bail out Iyanden 'because it was amusing' in a clear attempt to save face.

[Archon Charybdis]

It seems most of the time that Craftworlders and Kabalites work together it is due to the Harlequins prodding them to do so...

I did like the DE codex having one of the kabals refusing to admit this and saying they helped bail out Iyanden 'because it was amusing' in a clear attempt to save face.

There's absolutely no mention of Harlequins in that story at all. It seems entirely plausible that the capricious Dark Eldar would genuinely be amused at their normally smug and self righteous brethren being reduced to necromancy.

In any case, since someone already raised the topic of Catholic vs Protestant and Sunni vs Shiite in this thread, that's sort of how I see Eldar and Dark Eldar. They're more than content to fight amongst themselves and call one another heretics, but when some filthy mon'keigh gets in the middle they'll happily work together. They may think the other side are a bunch of fools and reprobates, but they're still Eldar.

[daboarder]

not to pick a fight, but that has to be the most flawed assertion about inter religious conflict I've ever read.

[Houghten]

I did like the DE codex having one of the kabals refusing to admit this and saying they helped bail out Iyanden 'because it was amusing' in a clear attempt to save face.

Aaaand now I am imagining an Archon stammering out a variation on the classic tsundere catchphrase:

"Stupid craftworlders! I-it's not like I saved your life because I like you or anything!"

[Vash108]

Revamp the Sisters. Make them desirable to play, may bring in some more female gamers.

[Darren Richardson]

Revamp the Sisters. Make them desirable to play, may bring in some more female gamers.

They could do that just by brining in plastics SoB instead of costly Cr@*cast....

[daboarder]

Aye, the instant sisters plastics drop I start a new army, hell honestly these days I'd settle for finecast.

In fact its getting to the point that if the metals are going I'll grab some of them and re-cast them for myself so I can start converting them.

[eldargal]

I did like the DE codex having one of the kabals refusing to admit this and saying they helped bail out Iyanden 'because it was amusing' in a clear attempt to save face.

Actually they said they helpd Iyanden because watching them angst over necromancy was amusing. There is nothing that I recall to indicate them being pressured into it by the Harlequins. However eldar are still eldar and the Dark and Craftworlders are not at war so it's never been much of a stretch to think that the Dark would side with their Craftworlder cousins if it meant slapping down one of the upstart races.

[lattd]

And whos to say there wasn't some minor looting whilst they helped?

[John Bower]

They may not be at war strictly speaking, but DE are not above capturing and torturing their supposed cousins if it suits them. Which is why I can't understand the whole Battle Bros thing. They should be Allies of Convenience imho. Look at GK's, Space marines but Battle Brothers with nobody.

[Mr Mystery]

They may not be at war strictly speaking, but DE are not above capturing and torturing their supposed cousins if it suits them. Which is why I can't understand the whole Battle Bros thing. They should be Allies of Convenience imho. Look at GK's, Space marines but Battle Brothers with nobody.

It's a family thing.

For instance, I can't stand my younger cousin, as he's a loser who causes no end of grief. But if it came down to him, or someone outside the family, the choice is weighted in his favour.

[Anggul]

There was a piece of fluff where they were permanently shutting off and sealing a webway gate because they foresaw that if they didn't the Dark Eldar would find that path and attack them through it. Dark Eldar will gladly attack their kin given the chance, they have absolutely no qualms about it, they're as evil as they come. They would be allies of desperation in my opinion, they're only slightly more friendly than Imperials and renegades. The Corsairs are cool with anyone, they're very different from Craftworlders, if anything they're more like the Dark Eldar in personality, despite their visual similarities. They're selfish, bloodthirsty pirates, the only real difference being that they have spirit stones and live in realspace and loot and kill for material gain and excitement rather than living in the webway and feeding upon suffering and being sadistic in the extreme.

Whether they'll fight alongside each other depends entirely upon the situation. They don't have the religious hatred that Imperials have toward renegades, but the Craftworlders still hate the Dark Eldar, after all it's their habits that caused the fall. The Dark Eldar are more laughing at the Craftworlders and thinking them pathetic rather than actually hating them in return. If needed, they'll ally, but they're just as likely to side with the third party against their dark kin. It depends entirely upon the situation. Do they need to do away with the third party or the dark kin? Which requires more firepower? They'll ally as required, then probably turn on the one left behind. In the case of allying with the Dark Eldar, I imagine they'll both expect it of each other and probably keep their distance from one another in that knowledge, none of this joining each others squads business.

[lattd]

I think the DE/CE battle brothers alliance is more to do with DE being usable as corsairs. When you consider that its a tad better but yea special characters shouldn't be allowed to join squads outside of their army.

[Anggul]

That's what the Corsairs army list is for, which has the option to include a squad of Dark Eldar.

[Eldar_Atog]

That's what the Corsairs army list is for, which has the option to include a squad of Dark Eldar.

Until a few weeks ago, you couldn't always count on being able to use the corsair army list. You never knew who would throw a fuss over forge world (and you still don't).

In a perfect universe, they might not be battle brothers but you have to work with what you have. We have 2 good rule sets to do all the different types of Eldar. If I want to build a Harliquin or Exodite list, I have to proxy a bunch of different things.

To make exodites, I would take a bunch of craftworld choices (like rangers and guardians) but I would also need access to things like the beastmasters from the dark eldar list.

To make harliquins, I would probably want to use the Dark Eldar list as the primary but I would need the rules for dark reapers to make a squad of death jesters and the farseer/spiritseer in place of the shadowseer.


Not all races have the luxury of having 7-8 different rule sets. Eldar were lucky enough to get 2 decent rule sets.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Until a few weeks ago, you couldn't always count on being able to use the corsair army list. You never knew who would throw a fuss over forge world (and you still don't).
Exactly. This gave you the option to create Corsair lists without using the Forgeworld rules. And if a Corsair list allows Eldar and Dark Eldar to be on the same team, then obviously they are potential allies under some fluff circumstances.

People who debate the DE/Eldar ally chart just don't really understand 40K that well. There are certainly some questionable combos on the Ally Chart (SM & Tau Battle Brothers, for example). But DE/Eldar are not one of them.

[Anggul]

Exactly. This gave you the option to create Corsair lists without using the Forgeworld rules. And if a Corsair list allows Eldar and Dark Eldar to be on the same team, then obviously they are potential allies under some fluff circumstances.

People who debate the DE/Eldar ally chart just don't really understand 40K that well. There are certainly some questionable combos on the Ally Chart (SM & Tau Battle Brothers, for example). But DE/Eldar are not one of them.

Dark Eldar don't suit Corsairs at all. Out of the two Craftworld Eldar would be much more suiting due to the same technology. Dark Eldar have different technology, weapons and vehicles and most notably Power From Pain.

[Eldar_Atog]

Dark Eldar don't suit Corsairs at all. Out of the two Craftworld Eldar would be much more suiting due to the same technology. Dark Eldar have different technology, weapons and vehicles and most notably Power From Pain.

Heck, there's the Duke from the DE codex. He's the perfect example of a bloodthirsty corsair. He can be a perfect gentleman one moment and a beast in the next.

To me, the kabalites fit the corsair mold better than the craftworlders. The weapon layouts of Kabalite troops and TrueBorn allow for more variety in weapon options. The models are also not as uniform. The dark eldar models just look more like pirates

[Maelstorm]

Caution - Eldar forces have hijacked the thread... :)

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Heck, there's the Duke from the DE codex. He's the perfect example of a bloodthirsty corsair. He can be a perfect gentleman one moment and a beast in the next.

To me, the kabalites fit the corsair mold better than the craftworlders. The weapon layouts of Kabalite troops and TrueBorn allow for more variety in weapon options. The models are also not as uniform. The dark eldar models just look more like piratesWell, the existing Corsair models are all variations of Craftworld units. It seems like their are two "types" of Corsairs - Dark Eldar who operate entirely outside the Webway (the Duke's Corsairs), and those with variants of Craftworld equipment (the Forgeworld Corsairs)?

[Eldar_Atog]

Lol, sorry about the thread jack. One more thing and I'll hush :)

I understand in the fluff why them being battle brothers doesn't quite jive for some people. If I saw a Biel Tan list that had a DE ally with Grots, Wracks, Mandrakes, and Haemoculus, I'd probably be giving them the stink eye myself.

To me, the battle brother thing is just a way that I can make fluffy lists. Want to add some corsairs to my CE army? Easy.. Just add a succubi and a squad of kabalite troops. Want to build Exodites? Not as easy but it's possible when you combine both books. Pure harliquin army? You can do it with both books.

I'd rather see Eldar lose Tau as a battle brother, personally. Battle brother implies to me that the races view each other as equals and I just can't see Eldar viewing them as equal. Eldar are just too haughty to do that.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I suppose the best approach might be to change the name from "Battle-brothers", to something that's less cuddly. I mean, I interpret a lot of the match-ups as meaning "We're reasonably sure they won't turn on us until after the battle, so we should intermix units in the most tactically advantageous way."

Basically, change Battle-brother to a short and sweet way of saying "The won't cut my throat during a battle with a mutual enemy."

[phreakachu]

on the same note, it bugs the hell out of me that Space Wolves are allowed to ally with the Inquisition in ANY form... they went to war with the Gray Knights following the 1st Armageddon War, Inquisitors that travel to Fenris get 'lost' (which to me just sounds like 'Inquisitor Dave is a$$hole... send him to Fenris')...
But the Wolves Count Dark Angels and Grey Knights as Convenient Allies, and the Inquisition (as per the Codex) as Battle Brothers. Am i the only one seeing this a problem

[daboarder]

Personally I think Battlebrothers needs to be straight up dropped, NO ONE in 40k is that cuddly with others, and its far to abusable for imperials and tau/eldar. Even space marine chapters will attack others to protect their secrets.

[Gleipnir]

well they did kinda hose over Chaos battle brothers with demons that prevent them from being able to intermingle, while allowing things like the Buffmander to create all kinds of silliness for the Greater Good, sucks to be Chaos. I understand players want to combine forces that would potentially fight alongside one another its where you use it to break balance that makes the ruleset so wonky, some FAQ errata indicating certain effects only apply to this or that unit chosen from this or that codex could help

[daboarder]

Which is why I've got no problem with convienence, its at the brother stage that the allies rules get abusive, one sided and armies in the game just straight up get the shaft

[Lexington]

Me, I'd just stuff the whole of the 5th/6th Edition Codex fluff to the woodchipper, hit the 'on' button and never look back. Sure, you lose a couple of nice things, but they're vastly outweighed by ham-handed Necron revamps, the dull, Phillipian (http://achewood.com/index.php?date=09142006) heroschlep of Ward and awkward nonsense like the Black Templars' new relationship status with psykers. We'd all be better off for it.


The Tyranids don't really fit the "fantasy in space" mold, but they've been around in 40K since the beginning so they get a pass.
For all of the attempts of GW fandom (and certain GW writers) to make it so, 40K's just not entirely analogous to WHFB, history or any other thing. It's a heavy pastiche of fantasy, classic sci-fi, punk aesthetic and pop cultural detritus thrown in for good measure. Tyranids aren't anything other than Tyranids - a composite of all the 'predatory alien' giblets from sci-fi movies and books.

[Gleipnir]

Can see Narrative reasons for wanting to keep Battle Brothers, though it would be nice to see the list be more selective. Or eliminate the Independent's joining units aspect and just leave Warlord Traits and counts as friendly for Psychic

[bfmusashi]

on the same note, it bugs the hell out of me that Space Wolves are allowed to ally with the Inquisition in ANY form... they went to war with the Gray Knights following the 1st Armageddon War, Inquisitors that travel to Fenris get 'lost' (which to me just sounds like 'Inquisitor Dave is a$$hole... send him to Fenris')...
But the Wolves Count Dark Angels and Grey Knights as Convenient Allies, and the Inquisition (as per the Codex) as Battle Brothers. Am i the only one seeing this a problem
And then they're totally buddies when a radical shows up to shut down a daemonic incursion. The Wolves respond to the Inquisition based on context, they do not have a boilerplate response.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Dark Eldar don't suit Corsairs at all. Out of the two Craftworld Eldar would be much more suiting due to the same technology. Dark Eldar have different technology, weapons and vehicles and most notably Power From Pain.
Are you talking in game terms? Because we're talking about fluffstifications, not about game list optimization.

In real terms, the only thing you need to be a Corsair is the desire to acquire resources via piracy, lol.

[John Bower]

And then they're totally buddies when a radical shows up to shut down a daemonic incursion. The Wolves respond to the Inquisition based on context, they do not have a boilerplate response.

See this shows how fluff changes from one publication to another, in the Pups own codex the Inquisition didn't kill everyone that saw a daemon, they just rounded them up and made convict slaves of them, yet in the GK codex they killed billions. Another example of MW re-writing history.

[Aegwymourn]

See this shows how fluff changes from one publication to another, in the Pups own codex the Inquisition didn't kill everyone that saw a daemon, they just rounded them up and made convict slaves of them, yet in the GK codex they killed billions. Another example of MW re-writing history.

It is less re-writing history and more the fact that there are no hard facts in 40k. Everything is shrouded in secrecy. Every report has a hidden agenda.

[Veteran Sergeant]

It is less re-writing history and more the fact that there are no hard facts in 40k. Everything is shrouded in secrecy. Every report has a hidden agenda.
That's just the GW cover story.

The reality is that they just don't have the time or interest to keep a top-level IP editor. And that's mostly because Games Workshop cares about the canon far less than any of the fans do. The world of 40K is just a rough outline of a place where you can take your army of plastic toy soldiers and fight battles against other plastic toy soldiers. They only write fluff because you'll buy that too.

[Nabterayl]

Also, I don't think they want to get pinned down to a tone. The more you pin down facts, the more you pin down the tone of the IP. 40K fans can't decide, as a body, what sort of tone 40K should have, and there's some sense in appealing to them by just not deciding. Sometimes you have funny stories, other times you have depressing ones. Sometimes you have serious stories, other times you have the cheerfully epic.

[Anggul]

Are you talking in game terms? Because we're talking about fluffstifications, not about game list optimization.

In real terms, the only thing you need to be a Corsair is the desire to acquire resources via piracy, lol.

What we know as 'Corsairs' are the pirates who aren't the dark kin. That's the term used for them, it always has been. Corsairs wouldn't use Splinter Weapons. The only reason the Dark Eldar use Splinter Weapons is that they cause as much suffering as possible in their victims, which the Dark Eldar draw strength and rejuvenation from. Corsairs are just after your stuff and will just shoot you and take it, they don't feed on suffering like the Dark Eldar.
Regardless, there's already a Corsairs army list.

Yes they're both pirates, but they're still distinguishable. They'll work together and not mind, but that's why I would make it so Craftworlders and Dark Eldar are allies of desperation, but Corsairs would be allies of convenience with both of them. Craftworlders would still be a little distrusting of Corsairs after all, as they are of any who don't follow the path.

Battle brothers should be reserved for very specific things such as Marines and Guard, Inquisition with most Imperial factions (not Black Templars, Dark Angels or Space Wolves though), Chaos and Daemons... I can't really think of anything else. It should be a lot more limited than it is, as should allies of convenience.

[Veteran Sergeant]

No offense man, but you're just making all of that up. It's Headhammer 40K, not Warhammer 40K. /shrug While it's perfectly acceptable to have a preferred way of imagining 40K, it's irrelevant to this thread. There's no in-universe fluff to support what you've said.


If there are Eldar who turn to piracy because they are bored of Craftworld life, obviously there could be Dark Eldar who have decided that they're not interested in being all about the 24/7 Rape Train and want to be a little less evil. They show up with the weapons they have with them, and then it's "Yo ho, yo ho" and so on. Corsairs are also a Forgeworld list, and the Ally Chart doesn't acknowledge it as integral to 40K. So, just like IGuard are Battle Brothers with Chaos so you can represent renegade human infantry, DE and Eldar are Battle Brothers so you can make pirate bands. If you don't want to make a pirate band of Outcast Eldar, nobody is forcing you. But the fluffstification is still there.

[Archon Charybdis]

That's the term used for them, it always has been. Corsairs wouldn't use Splinter Weapons. The only reason the Dark Eldar use Splinter Weapons is that they cause as much suffering as possible in their victims, which the Dark Eldar draw strength and rejuvenation from. Corsairs are just after your stuff and will just shoot you and take it, they don't feed on suffering like the Dark Eldar.

There's no reason to think it's the only reason they use splinter weapons. If we're making ad hoc justifications, it's also entirely plausible they find watching filthy sub-Eldar scum spasming in agony till they break their own backs under the convulsions to be amusing. That's an entirely consistent justification for Corsairs too, who are described as "haughty" more often than I can count.

[Maelstorm]

The pointy-eared hijackers are back....

[same_nips]

The ork fungal thing was always in the back of my mind; just crushed my adolescent imagination as it was swirling from a super sweet codex to find on the last few pages that your bad-*** kill-em-all army was a buncha walking mushrooms...
How many inquisitors have devoted centurys of their life to curing planet sized athletes foot?

[LordGrise]

Oh my God, some red meat at last. Barbot! Beer, large, cold, heavy on the hops. Go.

First and foremost: Have the Emperor flush, and stand up. IOW, advance the Timeline.

Second: Kill the current Ally matrix; it doesn't make sense as it is, and everyone and their freaking brother has taken it upon themselves to re-imagine what 'Battle-Brother' means. I am so sick of the whining about it, so just do away with it completely.

Now rewrite the Ally matrix in strict accordance with each faction and sub-faction's fluff. Yes, every single subfaction gets their own line on the matrix. But do not have any game mechanics rules whatsoever for any level of ally. Why? Because we should have to actually think and be creative with the game! Just like it says we should. But don't. Because those rule-worshipping 'competitive players' (apparently) think it's cheating. Somehow.

Oh, I also want a ruleset for point-value-ing custom vehicles. So I could actually table some of these things my imagination forced me to build with the bits and pieces laying around...

I guess I would need a welding torch and a pair of tongs to go along with that hammer for that last bit. Oh well.

[Renegade]

The ork fungal thing was always in the back of my mind; just crushed my adolescent imagination as it was swirling from a super sweet codex to find on the last few pages that your bad-*** kill-em-all army was a buncha walking mushrooms...
How many inquisitors have devoted centurys of their life to curing planet sized athletes foot?

But it keeps the numbers of hippies under control, those mushroom are a seriously bad trip :D

I would take the hammer to the current reference about psykers and the BT, I know blue shirts that have been so a long time that hate it as well.

I think a lot of what I would want to do is add in old units and new ones, wargear and such, from old and current fluff, once this is done I would then lot at slowly advancing the time line.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Because those rule-worshipping 'competitive players' (apparently) think it's cheating. Somehow.Now now, there's no need to be so divisive within our relatively small fanbase. As a primarily fluff/painting player, I prefer to have a tight, balanced ruleset - it makes the factions feel like equal threats, and the game more satisfying to play.

[Necron2.0]

In addition to what I've previously said (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?41099-If-You-Owned-A-Redacted-Hammer-What-Would-You-Kill&p=390167#post390167), I too would like to see the allies matrix corrected. I've mentioned this before, and maybe it's already been alluded to here, but they messed up the matrix when they said Sisters and Black Templars are Desperate Allies. The fluff indicates they're on fairly cordial terms, so they'd be at least Allies of Convenience. Meanwhile, there is simply no way in hell Sisters could work with Dark Angels without there being some friction there, given the DA's closet full of skeletons. Clearly, when they put the matrix together, somebody screwed up and transposed BT with DA.

[John Bower]

I get round that, in my campaign the allies matrix is barely worth the paper it's written on, other factors decide the level of allegiance instead. Such as whether you fought that faction in the last round, whether you fought them at all, whether they are mercenaries, and so on.

[Veteran Sergeant]

First and foremost: Have the Emperor flush, and stand up. IOW, advance the Timeline.
Why?

I don't know what this bizarre obsession with breaking the 40K storyline is based on. What does "advancing the timeline" do? Needing to know what happens next, or to have some kind of resolution? 40K hasn't moved but a few inches in 25 years. Why does it need to jump ahead now?

40K isn't a story. It's not going to change. It's just a setting. Can you tell stories within 40K? Sure. That's what the game is about. But the game itself isn't changing. Probably ever. Blah, blah Space Marines, blah blah grimdark, blah blah in perpetuity.

40K exists because Games Workshop needs a world for you to take your "evenly" balanced armies of plastic toy soldiers and have them fight improbable battles across neutral terrain and in neutral circumstances. Everybody understands their faction and what that faction's place in the universe is. That position is "Wow, this place kinda sucks but I guess it's better than being dead" or "This place seems too nice. We should break it."