"Smash" rule and Smash Attacks

[Vangrail]

The rule Smash makes you ap 2 and allows you to do smash attacks correct? page 42 main rulebook under monstrous creatures. Now would that make a hive tyrant ap 2 with his boneswords?

[Nabterayl]

Yes it would. You're AP2 in melee all the time (unless you're AP1), and - completely separately - you have the option to halve your Attacks and double your Strength in melee.

[Katharon]

Think of it like this: your model that has the Smash USR always fights with Smash -- but you can choose, at any time in cc, to make a special "Smash Attack" that doubles your Strength but divides your number of Attacks by two.

[evilamericorp]

Except your tail attacks. Because no one has ever smashed anything with a mace tail...

http://3219a2.medialib.glogster.com/media/23/2327f47a4efc0764be82afbdfe741b16f645991a15aec1ac23 c33934c355d721/ankylosaurus-jpg.jpg

[Vangrail]

Thanks folks for clearing that up. Ive never used monstrous creatures before besides my demon prince that has the ap 2 axe. Now may i ask whats the point of the swarmlord? Instant death and 4+ inv? Other then that i think u can make a cheaper tyrant as good.

[Tynskel]

Thanks folks for clearing that up. Ive never used monstrous creatures before besides my demon prince that has the ap 2 axe. Now may i ask whats the point of the swarmlord? Instant death and 4+ inv? Other then that i think u can make a cheaper tyrant as good.

Because She is a force multiplier: 3 powers that buff/debuff, hands out candy USRs, and is still a beatstick

[Tynskel]

Except your tail attacks. Because no one has ever smashed anything with a mace tail...

http://3219a2.medialib.glogster.com/media/23/2327f47a4efc0764be82afbdfe741b16f645991a15aec1ac23 c33934c355d721/ankylosaurus-jpg.jpg

That's why it is str 8

[Anggul]

It's no big deal as I probably still wouldn't buy them, but I do think the tail biomorphs could have had a little more oomph for what they cost and what they are.

As for the Swarmlord, yeah he's basically there to make other units in your army a lot scarier at any given moment, and is ML3 which is lovely. He then also butchers most things in close combat, and what he can't beat (a rather short list of things, although slightly larger now that they for some reason removed the forced re-rolling of invulnerable saves) you can just throw something else more appropriate at. Also he always gets the good warlord trait, Synaptic Lynchpin. Your call on whether you want to take him and have that or have another warlord roll on strategic, which is also good for Tyranids.

[Tynskel]

I just can't see tail attacks being that strong. Pay 10 points; get a bonus attack.
That's how you should look at it.

[Mr Mystery]

Swarmlord is also the only Tyrant to have an invulnerable save, albeit combat only. That's pretty saucy right there.

[evilamericorp]

That's why it is str 8

High strength no AP weapons in this game are stupid. Why can it smash a Space Marine Chapter Master to pulp in one hit, yet can be stopped by a Catachan Flak Muscle Shirt?


I just can't see tail attacks being that strong. Pay 10 points; get a bonus attack.
That's how you should look at it.

What is this raging hate boner you have for Tyranids? Why do you want everything in the book to be bad?

[John Bower]

I just can't see tail attacks being that strong. Pay 10 points; get a bonus attack.
That's how you should look at it.

Tell that to anyone that's been smacked by a Croc or Aligator tail and I don't think you'll like the language they hit you with for saying it... :) Believe me, you'd rather be hit with his/her claws than the tail.

[John Bower]

High strength no AP weapons in this game are stupid. Why can it smash a Space Marine Chapter Master to pulp in one hit, yet can be stopped by a Catachan Flak Muscle Shirt?


That's because they look like Rambo, and you know Rambo is super duper tough and can't be hurt by a rocket launcher (S8) let alone a wimpy little nid MC. LOL

[Tynskel]

Tell that to anyone that's been smacked by a Croc or Aligator tail and I don't think you'll like the language they hit you with for saying it... :) Believe me, you'd rather be hit with his/her claws than the tail.

Yeah. Exactly my point. They are still alive, not dead.

[Tynskel]

High strength no AP weapons in this game are stupid. Why can it smash a Space Marine Chapter Master to pulp in one hit, yet can be stopped by a Catachan Flak Muscle Shirt?



What is this raging hate boner you have for Tyranids? Why do you want everything in the book to be bad?

I don't have a hate boner. *YOU* are the one with the hate boner. I am just recognizing that bugs don't need redonkulous rules that don't make sense to be fun.

I have been playing bugs since they came out. I still have the original plastic Warriors, hugger Carnifexes, and *flamespurt* gargoyles. Don't tell me that I don't like Bugs.

[Tynskel]

High strength no AP weapons in this game are stupid. Why can it smash a Space Marine Chapter Master to pulp in one hit, yet can be stopped by a Catachan Flak Muscle Shirt?

High strength does not equate armor piercing. I could totally see Marbo being hit by the mace and go flying, but not be dead. I cannot see Marbo being picked up by a crushing claw and *ever* making it out alive.

[daboarder]

except in real life it kinda does.

Historically a mace was designed as an "anti armour" style weapon, because it relies on blunt force trauma it transmits the impact through the armour to the man inside, effectively ignoring the armour.

Or a modern take would be sabot rounds in tanks, they rely on kinetic force to do the damage not chemical explosives.

of course I see the game balance perspective.

[Tynskel]

except in real life it kinda does.

Historically a mace was designed as an "anti armour" style weapon, because it relies on blunt force trauma it transmits the impact through the armour to the man inside, effectively ignoring the armour.

Or a modern take would be sabot rounds in tanks, they rely on kinetic force to do the damage not chemical explosives.

of course I see the game balance perspective.


Shockwave physics is not necessarily what is being talked about here.

That's where AP2 comes from Monsterous Creatures. The shockwave physics.
Str 8 is just a momentum transfer.

Sabot rounds are not 'high strength'. Those are high velocity rounds, causing shockwaves.

Think of str8 more like Men in Black, and the big bug just slapping Jay around. That's str8. Jay's not wearing armor. He just happens to make his 6+ save multiple times in a row. The cook, in the restaurant, on the other hand, fails his 6+ save and is crushed by Instant Death.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, I'm sure that GW's sitting there with their pocket protectors and calculators thinking 'but how does the energy wave propagate through ceramite? What if we run a finite element analysis to find the weak points in power armor to justify Rending?"

[Tynskel]

That's what Tech Priests do. They just call it 'runes of armor initiation'.

[Tynskel]

Yeah, I'm sure that GW's sitting there with their pocket protectors and calculators thinking 'but how does the energy wave propagate through ceramite? What if we run a finite element analysis to find the weak points in power armor to justify Rending?"

I don't think they think about it that way with actual calculators. However, I'm sure some of the guys/gals that work there have taken physics at some point in their life.

[John Bower]

Yeah. Exactly my point. They are still alive, not dead.

Only the ones you can ask are, and then only the ones who didn't get a full on hit. Believe me, that tail can (and does) kill. And a croc/alligator is not the size of a double decker bus, or larger of course as in the case of Tyranids that have such an attack, if you want to equate it to something that size, check out Dragons in DnD, whose tail can do a heck of a lot of damage. It doesn't kill because DnD of course is heroic fiction and you can't have the main PC's dying outright because nobody would play, they are considered more or less to have 'eternal warrior' for all intents and purposes. But any creature the size of a Hive Tyrant or larger smacking you down with it's tail will undoubtedly kill you.

[Tynskel]

Only the ones you can ask are, and then only the ones who didn't get a full on hit. Believe me, that tail can (and does) kill. And a croc/alligator is not the size of a double decker bus, or larger of course as in the case of Tyranids that have such an attack, if you want to equate it to something that size, check out Dragons in DnD, whose tail can do a heck of a lot of damage. It doesn't kill because DnD of course is heroic fiction and you can't have the main PC's dying outright because nobody would play, they are considered more or less to have 'eternal warrior' for all intents and purposes. But any creature the size of a Hive Tyrant or larger smacking you down with it's tail will undoubtedly kill you.

Tyrant tail attack-str 6 AP5. Yup. That'll kill just about anything.

[DWest]

Tyrant tail attack-str 6 AP5. Yup. That'll kill just about anything.

That's exactly the problem though- it has a reasonable AP to go along with the high S. It's the attack with S8 and AP- that makes no sense. How can you hit something hard enough to inflict the damage equivalent to a krak missile and have it bounce off even the lightest armor?

[Wolfshade]

A lot depends on how the force is deployed.

Usain Bolt when running full tilt is more energetic than a speeding bullet (obviously depending on bullet type etc.) but if he hits you, you would not expect to die, it is possible, you could crack your head on the floor badly, but it is remote. High strenght low ap. Then a bullet less, powerful, could kill you relatively easily because it is designed to penetrate.

[Katharon]

That's exactly the problem though- it has a reasonable AP to go along with the high S. It's the attack with S8 and AP- that makes no sense. How can you hit something hard enough to inflict the damage equivalent to a krak missile and have it bounce off even the lightest armor?

Ever seen a deer get hit by a car going 60 and walk away like nothing happened? Or the parachutist who fell two miles to the ground, landed on a bush and only had slight scrapes and bruises? Or the 8-month old Chinese baby that was stabbed in the face 90 times with a pair of scissors and survived just fine (with 90 stitches admittedly)? Stuff just happens in the right way and things don't get hurt (much).

[DWest]

I would put that under 'rolling a 1 to wound'. Personally, I'd like to see the macetail be S8 AP4- basically a giant power maul.

[Tynskel]

That's exactly the problem though- it has a reasonable AP to go along with the high S. It's the attack with S8 and AP- that makes no sense. How can you hit something hard enough to inflict the damage equivalent to a krak missile and have it bounce off even the lightest armor?

I already answered this:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?41040-quot-Smash-quot-rule-and-Smash-Attacks&p=389410&viewfull=1#post389410

[Tynskel]

Ever seen a deer get hit by a car going 60 and walk away like nothing happened? Or the parachutist who fell two miles to the ground, landed on a bush and only had slight scrapes and bruises? Or the 8-month old Chinese baby that was stabbed in the face 90 times with a pair of scissors and survived just fine (with 90 stitches admittedly)? Stuff just happens in the right way and things don't get hurt (much).

There we go. It is just a giant tail. If you are between a rock and a hard place, that tail squishes you. Otherwise, you just get battered around.

[John Bower]

A lot depends on how the force is deployed.

Usain Bolt when running full tilt is more energetic than a speeding bullet (obviously depending on bullet type etc.) but if he hits you, you would not expect to die, it is possible, you could crack your head on the floor badly, but it is remote. High strenght low ap. Then a bullet less, powerful, could kill you relatively easily because it is designed to penetrate.

That doesn't work, he's a guy doing what? 25 - 30 mph, yet you're saying he'll hit with more force than a bullet doing nearly a thousand? I doubt that. I know a bullet weighs bugger all, but all that force is on the point. and bugger moving at e=mc squared, is still a lot of power when c squared is 1 million X the weight of the bullet. Compared to maybe 12 stone going at 600.

[DWest]

I already answered this:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?41040-quot-Smash-quot-rule-and-Smash-Attacks&p=389410&viewfull=1#post389410
Except that "shockwave physics" would be a better argument for the attack to have a high AP, rather than AP-, as the energy is transmitted through the armor. Also, "sabots" are simply a method of loading a subcaliber round into a smoothbore firearm. If what you're referring to is a kinetic penetrator (of which class the "sabot" as in armor-piercing-fin-stabilized-discarding-sabot round is a member), the point of that type of ammunition is to minimize any shockwave effects by concentrating the energy over as small a cross-section as possible (hence why the projectile looks like an arrow or dart) in order to punch through thick armor, rather than simply ringing the whole target like a bell. Again, the concept of a very large club having no AP is contradictory both to physics *and* the established design of 40k (see power mauls).

[DarkLink]

That doesn't work, he's a guy doing what? 25 - 30 mph, yet you're saying he'll hit with more force than a bullet doing nearly a thousand? I doubt that. I know a bullet weighs bugger all, but all that force is on the point. and bugger moving at e=mc squared, is still a lot of power when c squared is 1 million X the weight of the bullet. Compared to maybe 12 stone going at 600.

Usain Bolt weights 94kg, and can sprint at 12.27m/s. That's 7076 Joules.

An average .22lr, one of the smallest commonly available bullets, travels at approximately 300-500 m/s and weights 30-40 grains, depending on load. That's a range of about 100-200 Joules.

A .556, the NATO standard assault rifle round, has a muzzle velocity of 940 m/s, and weights about 60gr, for 1700-1800 Joules.

A 7.62, the NATO standard battle rifle/light sniper rifle round, and reasonably lethal out to about 800m has a muzzle velocity of 800m/s at 150gr, for 2500 Joules.

A .338, what's commonly becoming the new standard sniper round for most nations around the world, lethal out to well beyond 2000m, has a muzzle velocity around 1000m/s, weighs 300gr, and delivers about 5000 Joules on impact.

A .50BMG, the most common heavy sniper/machine gun round, lethal out to as far as you can hit something with it, weighs 650-800gr, has a muzzle velocity around 900m/s, and delivers up to 14,000 Joules on impact.

So, if Usain Bolt went jousting on foot, he could easily kill someone.

[daboarder]

That doesn't work, he's a guy doing what? 25 - 30 mph, yet you're saying he'll hit with more force than a bullet doing nearly a thousand? I doubt that. I know a bullet weighs bugger all, but all that force is on the point. and bugger moving at e=mc squared, is still a lot of power when c squared is 1 million X the weight of the bullet. Compared to maybe 12 stone going at 600.

Um.....john.....in the E=MCsquared equation....the C value doesn't equal the mass of the object, that C is the universal constant (The speed of light) its the M that is the mass component of the equation.

edit: Furthermore, E=MCsquared is the wrong equation for what your trying to calculate, that one governs the changes in an objects mass as it approaches the speed of light.

[Tynskel]

Except that "shockwave physics" would be a better argument for the attack to have a high AP, rather than AP-, as the energy is transmitted through the armor. Also, "sabots" are simply a method of loading a subcaliber round into a smoothbore firearm. If what you're referring to is a kinetic penetrator (of which class the "sabot" as in armor-piercing-fin-stabilized-discarding-sabot round is a member), the point of that type of ammunition is to minimize any shockwave effects by concentrating the energy over as small a cross-section as possible (hence why the projectile looks like an arrow or dart) in order to punch through thick armor, rather than simply ringing the whole target like a bell. Again, the concept of a very large club having no AP is contradictory both to physics *and* the established design of 40k (see power mauls).

I am talking about shock wave physics that cause spaulation. aka High AP.
The giant tail is just a lot of mass over a lot of area.

[daboarder]

I am talking about shock wave physics that cause spaulation. aka High AP.
The giant tail is just a lot of mass over a lot of area.

I assume you mean Spallation?

If thats the case then you have missed the entire point.

A shockwave doesn't need to cause spallation to kill....in fact thats kinda the point.

Shockwaves propagate through solid with less energy loss than they do liquids, and then gasses. As such they don't "penetrate" a material in the sense your talking about, they straight up bypass it, and impart the entire (or most) of the force onto the object on the other side....and THAT'S! what kills and that's why maces should technically speaking have a lower AP....because they break your face whether your wearing a helmet or not....which, historically, was the entire point.

I'll put it another way,

There is a reason that the primary injuries cause by explosives are contributed to the over pressure (shock wave) and not fragmentation or burns

[Wolfshade]

Usain Bolt weights 94kg, and can sprint at 12.27m/s. That's 7076 Joules.

An average .22lr, one of the smallest commonly available bullets, travels at approximately 300-500 m/s and weights 30-40 grains, depending on load. That's a range of about 100-200 Joules.

A .556, the NATO standard assault rifle round, has a muzzle velocity of 940 m/s, and weights about 60gr, for 1700-1800 Joules.

A 7.62, the NATO standard battle rifle/light sniper rifle round, and reasonably lethal out to about 800m has a muzzle velocity of 800m/s at 150gr, for 2500 Joules.

A .338, what's commonly becoming the new standard sniper round for most nations around the world, lethal out to well beyond 2000m, has a muzzle velocity around 1000m/s, weighs 300gr, and delivers about 5000 Joules on impact.

A .50BMG, the most common heavy sniper/machine gun round, lethal out to as far as you can hit something with it, weighs 650-800gr, has a muzzle velocity around 900m/s, and delivers up to 14,000 Joules on impact.

So, if Usain Bolt went jousting on foot, he could easily kill someone.

Cheers DL, saved me the back of the envelope.


That doesn't work, he's a guy doing what? 25 - 30 mph, yet you're saying he'll hit with more force than a bullet doing nearly a thousand? I doubt that. I know a bullet weighs bugger all, but all that force is on the point. and bugger moving at e=mc squared, is still a lot of power when c squared is 1 million X the weight of the bullet. Compared to maybe 12 stone going at 600.

Neither Usain nor the bullet would be travelling relativistically, instead use the formula for Kinetic Energy, (E = 1/2 mv^2) then integrate along time.

[Anggul]

I was kind of thinking they could be 5pts cheaper or do a little bit more to make them worth it.

Usain Bolt jousting on foot is cool too though I guess.

[DarkLink]

I feel like that would make a great XKCD What-if? question.

[Tynskel]

I assume you mean Spallation?

If thats the case then you have missed the entire point.

A shockwave doesn't need to cause spallation to kill....in fact thats kinda the point.

Shockwaves propagate through solid with less energy loss than they do liquids, and then gasses. As such they don't "penetrate" a material in the sense your talking about, they straight up bypass it, and impart the entire (or most) of the force onto the object on the other side....and THAT'S! what kills and that's why maces should technically speaking have a lower AP....because they break your face whether your wearing a helmet or not....which, historically, was the entire point.

I'll put it another way,

There is a reason that the primary injuries cause by explosives are contributed to the over pressure (shock wave) and not fragmentation or burns

You don't need to lecture me on physics.
This is what I do for a living.

The mace is sending the force over a small area. The shockwave that transfers into the other object is similar to spallation in that the wave front encounters a medium change with a large density difference. This changes the velocity of the wave front, and causes reflections. It is the reflections and wave speed changes that cause the 'over pressure' that you are describing.

The Tail attack doesn't do that. See:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?41040-quot-Smash-quot-rule-and-Smash-Attacks&p=389410&viewfull=1#post389410

[DWest]

Linking to an incorrect answer still doesn't make it correct.

[Tynskel]

Linking to an incorrect answer still doesn't make it correct.

No. The answer is correct, but everyone has missed the most important part: what happens to Jay.

[DWest]

Or the bug is rolling a 1 to wound repeatedly. Or he's passing his 2+ "I'm the star of the movie" save.

[Tynskel]

Or the bug is rolling a 1 to wound repeatedly. Or he's passing his 2+ "I'm the star of the movie" save.

or, that the bug is wounding on at str8, and Jay makes his 6+ save.

[DWest]

Or, you could continue to keep repeating an incorrect explanation until the sun goes nova.

[Tynskel]

Or, you could continue to keep repeating an incorrect explanation until the sun goes nova.

no. Because the rules are there, and I gave the inner workings. A large tail hitting everything at once is still str 8. it would hit armor at a specific point (armor is larger), causing a cavitation within the armor. However, hitting an entire human at the same time distributes the force over a large area, aka why Jay survives.

[DWest]

First off, a movie is still not a valid example of impact physics in action. Second, a mace concentrates force, instead of spreading it. Finally, the tail in question (shown below) has spikes in it to deliver the force over an even smaller area. Your explanation is still wrong.
7077

[Tynskel]

First off, a movie is still not a valid example of impact physics in action. Second, a mace concentrates force, instead of spreading it. Finally, the tail in question (shown below) has spikes in it to deliver the force over an even smaller area. Your explanation is still wrong.
7077

Yeah, a mace concentrates for force on to a specific spot *on a tank*, however, against a man sized object, the force is spread throughout the entire body.

We all know that spikey bitz ended in 3rd Edition. The man is being hit by the tail.

[DarkLink]

Well, that would depend on the size of the mace, wouldn't it.

[Anggul]

I imagined it would pierce armour due to the massive great spikes on said mace tail. Either way I just wanted them to be more worth the points. Drop the cost of Mace and Toxinspike by 5 and I'm happy with the cost. I think the other tails should have more rules though. A 'Thresher' Scythe sounds like it should be cutting through multiple enemies. It used to cause D3 hits, so maybe make it do that again. The Prehensile Pincer could have some kind of 'grab' rule. No idea what it would do yet, but it's an idea.

[Mr Mystery]

Historically, Maces were used to dent armour, rather than it's occupant. That way you can take them hostage and get a nice little ransom.

Unless they were a peasant, who didn't wear armour anyway.

[Tynskel]

Historically, Maces were used to dent armour, rather than it's occupant. That way you can take them hostage and get a nice little ransom.

Unless they were a peasant, who didn't wear armour anyway.

tah-dah.

[daboarder]

Historically, Maces were used to dent armour, rather than it's occupant. That way you can take them hostage and get a nice little ransom.

Unless they were a peasant, who didn't wear armour anyway.

Seriously mystery do some research before you make statements.



During the Middle Ages metal Armour and chain mail protected against the blows of edged weapons and blocked arrows and other projectiles. Solid metal maces and war hammers proved able to inflict damage on well armoured knights, as the force of a blow from a mace is large enough to cause damage without penetrating the armour.


War hammers, especially when mounted on a pole, could damage without penetrating the armour. In particular, they transmitted the impact through even the thickest helmet and caused concussions. A blade or spike tended to be used against other parts of the body where the armour was thinner, and penetration was easier, than through the helmet.

Hafted Weapons in Medieval and Renaissance Europe: The Evolution of European Staff Weapons Between 1200 and 1650 by John Waldman

Medieval Military Technology by Kelly DeVries

http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/rmed20/current#.UuxGxvmSxgY

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/03044181

[Tynskel]

your science direct link is bad...

so is your taylor and francis.

better to actually point to an article...

[daboarder]

So....your going to ignore the books?
I'll get the proper papers up when I'm at work tomorrow

edit: actually heres an idea, since Mystery made the statement, and you agreed with it, how about YOU do the leg work.

whats YOUR reference tynskel

[Tynskel]

Sure.
http://www.amazon.com/Geodynamics-Donald-L-Turcotte/dp/0521666244

Shockwaves, constructive-destructive interference, zero-velocity boundaries. As I said, this is what I study.

if you need something simpler:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_11?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=physics+for+scientists+and+engineers&sprefix=physics+for%2Cstripbooks%2C169&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Aphysics+for+scientists+and+eng ineers

[daboarder]

Sigh,

yup I'm sure they have an in depth description of the development of medieval weapons....

[Tynskel]

Sigh,

yup I'm sure they have an in depth description of the development of medieval weapons....

who cares what some historian thinks. *Most* of the time archeologists and historians come up with theories that do not physically make *any* sense. Best to use your physics textbook.

That's why I asked for an article. I would more likely believe the medieval article *if* there was a physicist as one of the authors, and they show some shockwave data with the weapons.

[DWest]

Ok, so how is geodynamics applicable here? We're not talking about grinding two masses together, we're talking hitting a (relatively) flat surface with a single mass that has a narrow cross-section relative to the target. The energy transfers right through the armor, damaging tissue underneath.

http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~blackman/ur10helmets.pdf Here's a study on the efficacy of football (handegg) helmets in impacts; in summary, what the researchers are finding is that despite the rigid outer shell and padding in modern football helmets, when you smack helmet-to-helmet (a hard, curved surface similar to a mace impacting on rigid armor), the brain inside the helmet gets damaged by transmitted kinetic energy, *despite* the outer armor (helmet and skull both) not showing physical damage.

[Tynskel]

Ok, so how is geodynamics applicable here? We're not talking about grinding two masses together, we're talking hitting a (relatively) flat surface with a single mass that has a narrow cross-section relative to the target. The energy transfers right through the armor, damaging tissue underneath.

http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~blackman/ur10helmets.pdf Here's a study on the efficacy of football (handegg) helmets in impacts; in summary, what the researchers are finding is that despite the rigid outer shell and padding in modern football helmets, when you smack helmet-to-helmet (a hard, curved surface similar to a mace impacting on rigid armor), the brain inside the helmet gets damaged by transmitted kinetic energy, *despite* the outer armor (helmet and skull both) not showing physical damage.

That's exactly what I am talking about. That's covered in geodynamics. It is a shockwave transfered from one velocity medium to the another shockwave medium. You take the shockwave equations in geodynamics and change the coefficients.

And we already went over this: the impacts on the helmet in that study are still concentrated, not distributed throughout the entire helmet.

The tail is larger than the man sized object.
Try diving off of a 10m dive board and go head first, or flat body plant. You'll see that unless you know *how* to dive into a pool, the head first is very *dangerous* whereas the flat body plant, although can be dangerous, the body is able to dissipate the energy.

again I cite MiB and Jay vs the Cook vs the Bugger (which is *very* appropriate, since it is a monsterous bug).

[DWest]

And we already went over this: the impacts on the helmet in that study are still concentrated.
Just like an actual mace would be.


The tail is larger than the man sized object.
No, it isn't. I have one of each sitting on my desk, and the knobs are the right size for a mace. If you get to the full tail-to-torso contact, there will be spurs of bone sticking out the back of the target's body, which is definitely an armor-piercing event.


again I cite MiB and Jay vs the Cook vs the Bugger (which is *very* appropriate, since it is a monsterous bug).
Again, using a movie where the outcome of the impact is determined by what best serves the story as opposed to any sort of actual physics makes you sound ridiculous, and destroys any credibility you might have.

[Tynskel]

Just like an actual mace would be.


No, it isn't. I have one of each sitting on my desk, and the knobs are the right size for a mace. If you get to the full tail-to-torso contact, there will be spurs of bone sticking out the back of the target's body, which is definitely an armor-piercing event.


Again, using a movie where the outcome of the impact is determined by what best serves the story as opposed to any sort of actual physics makes you sound ridiculous, and destroys any credibility you might have.

Nope. You ignored my dive example. It is just like the Jay Example.
I've been playing bugs for ~25 years. I know what the mace tail looks like. The tail is larger than a man. The nobs on the tail are many times large than a head.

riiiight, my credibility is destroyed by the jay example... right... nevermind the shockwave physics training I have...



You guys are totally missing how armor piercing rules work in 40k. Bolters are an extremely deadly weapon to Space Marines. However, they do not always go right through the armor. they sometimes do. Flak armor, on the other hand, a bolter doesn't even notice that exists. Hence why it is AP5.

The mace tail is extremely deadly. It, however, does not 'ignore armor'.

[DWest]

Yes, your credibility is destroyed. At this point, I just want to see how many more times I can get you to say "I have shockwave physics training" like that means anything or justifies anything.

Also, I still have one of the tail maces sitting on my desk. The largest spike on it is half the size of the smallest Eldar head.

Come on, up your game. I've squeezed all the laughter I can out of your current line of arguments, I need some fresh material.

[Tynskel]

Yes, your credibility is destroyed. At this point, I just want to see how many more times I can get you to say "I have shockwave physics training" like that means anything or justifies anything.

Also, I still have one of the tail maces sitting on my desk. The largest spike on it is half the size of the smallest Eldar head.

Come on, up your game. I've squeezed all the laughter I can out of your current line of arguments, I need some fresh material.

Nope, your lack of an argument is what makes your credibility bad.
Analogies work perfectly fine. That's what a lot of physics is—using models to take the complicated and make it simple.

I suggest reading http://www.amazon.com/Geodynamics-Donald-L-Turcotte/dp/0521666244
before making things up.

Here's some more shockwave physics. note the velocities required and the impact surface area (aka small vs total target body surface area). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5FEj9U-CJM

That's right: no counters to what I am saying.

[DarkLink]

That's right: no counters to what I am saying.

Wow.

I haven't really read the thread, so I can't comment on your physics claims, but serously? Way to be a tool.

[daboarder]

edit: actually I don't care, until you quote papers that actually model the impact of a mace on a person wearing armour I'm going to go with the experts in their specific field.

[John Bower]

Yes, your credibility is destroyed. At this point, I just want to see how many more times I can get you to say "I have shockwave physics training" like that means anything or justifies anything.

Also, I still have one of the tail maces sitting on my desk. The largest spike on it is half the size of the smallest Eldar head.

Come on, up your game. I've squeezed all the laughter I can out of your current line of arguments, I need some fresh material.


Well then that 'spike' with that weight behind it in and of itself should ignore at least flak armour. If you're wearing a Kevlar (or 40k equivalent) helmet that spike is going to punch your brains out. The pain won't last long, in fact I doubt you'd even register it since all pain has to be assimilated by the brain which is already dead before it gets the chance.

[Tynskel]

edit: actually I don't care, until you quote papers that actually model the impact of a mace on a person wearing armour I'm going to go with the experts in their specific field.

That's a great way of saying that I will believe anything anyone puts on the internet. Way to go at losing credibility.

Really, your thought should be, 'how can u believe anything that these papers are saying, when they *have not* done the maths?'

[Tynskel]

Well then that 'spike' with that weight behind it in and of itself should ignore at least flak armour. If you're wearing a Kevlar (or 40k equivalent) helmet that spike is going to punch your brains out. The pain won't last long, in fact I doubt you'd even register it since all pain has to be assimilated by the brain which is already dead before it gets the chance.

I don't think so. Our best flak armor today is our b-disarm squads. That's designed to absorb all sorts of shock waves. Either you get crushed, or you are going to survive until the next round...

[Tynskel]

Wow.

I haven't really read the thread, so I can't comment on your physics claims, but serously? Way to be a tool.

Hey, I've put down stuff that makes physical sense. It isn't relying on some misconception or a false reality.

[DWest]

Hey, I've put down stuff that makes physical sense. It isn't relying on some misconception or a false reality.
You're using a movie to justify your claims, and you say you're not relying on a false reality. You're either an incredibly skilled troll, or do not understand how the English language works at all.

[Tynskel]

You're using a movie to justify your claims, and you say you're not relying on a false reality. You're either an incredibly skilled troll, or do not understand how the English language works at all.

The movie was just an illustration, I have used other real world examples.

[DWest]

It still makes you hypocritical in the extreme, and it also casts doubt on the validity of everything you say, because you keep defending that example.

[daboarder]

That's a great way of saying that I will believe anything anyone puts on the internet. Way to go at losing credibility.

Really, your thought should be, 'how can u believe anything that these papers are saying, when they *have not* done the maths?'

no, When I say expert in their field I mean peer reviewed journal papers. Don't be an idiot.

[Tynskel]

no, When I say expert in their field I mean peer reviewed journal papers. Don't be an idiot.

Even with peer review journals, you have to remember, if the reviewer doesn't know maths, how are they expected to ask to see the maths?

[Tynskel]

It still makes you hypocritical in the extreme, and it also casts doubt on the validity of everything you say, because you keep defending that example.

Well, you could always just use the real world example: running with the bulls. Those things toss people a side, and many times, the people, of which are wearing less than light armor, are okay... So, YES, the Jay example works perfectly fine as an illustration.

[DWest]

Except, we're not talking about bulls, we're talking about maces, and you're still trying to defend a fictitious example. You are still wrong, and still a hypocrite.

[Tynskel]

Except, we're not talking about bulls, we're talking about maces, and you're still trying to defend a fictitious example. You are still wrong, and still a hypocrite.

We are talking about Maces that are the size of Bulls! That's what we are talking about.
So the example works fine.

Here's another example? Have you been hit by a car? Because people get broadsided by cars (which I have witnessed) and walk away, but if they are hit on 'edge' they get screwed up.

[DWest]

Except that the mace-tail is in no way the size of a bull, even giving a generous amount of leeway to account for the "heroic scale" of 40k miniatures. Nor does a bull have the construction or impact profile of even a bull-sized mace. And yes, people can get broadsided by cars and survive. It's called "rolling a 1 to wound". You have claimed in the past to have "25 years experience with 40k", but yet you have never once properly taken this into account.

Do you not understand how thoroughly you have lost this argument, or do you just not care?

[Tynskel]

The mace tail as a whole is the almost the size if a space marine. A space marine is larger than a bull...

It is also called rolling a 6 up save, or have you forgotten that that's what Catachan wear... Aka no armor

[John Bower]

I don't think so. Our best flak armor today is our b-disarm squads. That's designed to absorb all sorts of shock waves. Either you get crushed, or you are going to survive until the next round...

Yes but the spike will go through the helmet, into your cranium thence into your brain. Piercing it and obliterating it to a sort of greeny grey pulp.

[DWest]

The mace tail as a whole is the almost the size if a space marine. A space marine is larger than a bull...

It is also called rolling a 6 up save, or have you forgotten that that's what Catachan wear... Aka no armor
The mace is barely the size of a Space Marine's torso, unless you want to count the spikes, which would alter the damage profile completely. An unarmored civilian does not get a 6+ or any armor save. Catachans do wear armor, and even if the unarmored ones counted as an example, it would give the civilian a 5+ save, not a 6+.

Please continue failing.

[AlmostMercury]

Or, you could continue to keep repeating an incorrect explanation until the sun goes nova.

This is Tynskel's MO.

And then attempt to reduce all arguments into contradiction so that anything follows. When anything follows, he's justified in saying "You can't prove me wrong!"

Maybe he's better at this than I think he is... hmmm...

[Tynskel]

The mace is barely the size of a Space Marine's torso, unless you want to count the spikes, which would alter the damage profile completely. An unarmored civilian does not get a 6+ or any armor save. Catachans do wear armor, and even if the unarmored ones counted as an example, it would give the civilian a 5+ save, not a 6+.

Please continue failing.

You clearly don't know what armor is 40k is like.

5+ armor is *FLAK* armor. There's only one unit in the world that wear's *FLAK* armor, and that's Bomb Squads. Next time you check it out, you'll find that it's huge.

Second Catachans *don't* wear any armor. They are naked from the waste up! Yet, they still have a save... so go ahead, and keep making stuff up.

I don't know the last time you checked: a space marine torso is the size of a bull...

[evilamericorp]

I like how my one off-hand comment in a thread that was already answered spawned 9 more pages of Tynskel vs. Everyone arguing...

[Tynskel]

I like how my one off-hand comment in a thread that was already answered spawned 9 more pages of Tynskel vs. Everyone arguing...

That's how it works on BoLS lounge. How else is one to get to 5,355 posts?

[DWest]

so go ahead, and keep making stuff up.
You're projecting again . . . you've done nothing but make up nonsense this entire thread.

Second, flak jackets were first deployed in WWII, and they've been widely issued in every war since then. Bomb squads wear ballistic suits, which are a different item entirely, and include hard plates of armor, which would make them 4+/Carapace in 40k.

Third, a Space Marine's torso makes up roughly 1/3 of his body (12mm of a 32mm total on the first model I grabbed off my shelf). Domestic cattle are 5-6 feet long. So you're claiming then that a Space marine is at least 13 1/3 feet tall? Because that contradicts every bit of literature published by GW.

But please, continue to make a fool of yourself.

[Tynskel]

You're projecting again . . . you've done nothing but make up nonsense this entire thread.

Second, flak jackets were first deployed in WWII, and they've been widely issued in every war since then. Bomb squads wear ballistic suits, which are a different item entirely, and include hard plates of armor, which would make them 4+/Carapace in 40k.

Third, a Space Marine's torso makes up roughly 1/3 of his body (12mm of a 32mm total on the first model I grabbed off my shelf). Domestic cattle are 5-6 feet long. So you're claiming then that a Space marine is at least 13 1/3 feet tall? Because that contradicts every bit of literature published by GW.

But please, continue to make a fool of yourself.

Space Marines are massive and weigh more than cattle do.

Additionally, modern armor also has hard plates in them.
The flak armor in 40k has ceremite plates, great for both energy dissipation and shrapnel. I'm sorry, but you have your facts wrong. Modern armor has *nothing* on 40k flak armor.

[Wolfshade]

I like how my one off-hand comment in a thread that was already answered spawned 9 more pages of Tynskel vs. Everyone arguing...

Change it to 40 post/page it is only 3 and is easier to follow.


That's how it works on BoLS lounge. How else is one to get to 5,355 posts?

By being a n00b ;)

[DWest]

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. You said a Space Marine was larger than a bull. I proved that wrong. Now you're saying heavier. Changing the question doesn't make the previous answer incorrect. Furthermore, the average market weight for steers is 624kg, while a Space Marine (in power armor) has been repeatedly specified to be in the range of 500kg, so you're wrong there as well.

Just to be clear, you are trolling, right? You don't actually believe the incompetent rubbish you've been spouting, do you?

[Denzark]

There would be a simple in game method to correct this.

S4, -1 Save Mod
S5, -2 Save Mod
S6, -3 Save Mod
S7, -4 Save Mod
S8, -5 Save Mod
S9, -6 Save Mod

Terminator save on 3+ on 2d6. (Squat exo armour 4+ on 2d6).

Sound familiar? For me it is pretty incongrous that a Lascannon, AP2 (Armour Penteration 2) is less likely to penetrate a AV14 Landraider - the best non-SH level of protection in the universe - than a Basilisk. But the Basilisk will allow a terminator a full, non-degraded armour save, but absolutely no save against the lascannon. But then a lesser strength plasma gun will negate the TDA save but will bounce off the Land raider.

This is why I would support a return to save modifiers.

[Anggul]

I would love for save modifiers to return. It would also allow Terminator Armour to be significantly better than Artificer armour, as you could broaden the save range. It could at least be 1+ like you get on the heaviest cavalry in Fantasy.

I have to say a Marine's torso is definitely not the size of a bull, not sure where that one came from.

I'm not going to pretend I've ever researched how well a great big spikey chunk on the end of a monster's tail being swung would penetrate armour. At a guess using lay man 'it seems like it would work that way' physics I would say that because it's being swung wide rather than than being applied with purposeful force behind it like attacking with its limbs would be, it would be worse at pushing the spikes through the armour of something that will give and move away than something that will stay where it is and be caved in. The more stable and immovable something is, the more damage swinging the mace tail at it will do, hence it will do more damage against a tank and cave in a chunk of it, whereas if it hits a guy, he'll give rather than holding steady, so will be thrown.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you're better off wearing more flexible material against a blunt weapon such as a hammer, as it will give and flex around the surface area of the weapon so the force will be dispersed, as opposed to rigid plate which will hold in one place and thus cave in. On the flip side an edged weapon such as a sword or spear will go right through softer, more flexible armour which will bend inwards and make it even easier, but will be more likely to fail or glance off against rigid plate. The difference here, I suppose, is that it isn't just a large blunt object, it's covered in sharp spikes so it isn't just bashing, it's also piercing. I would think that even if the spikes didn't go through you, the force of being hit with such an object with such force would shatter your bones regardless of armour, wouldn't it? I get that blunt weapons are meant to cave in armour, but I imagine the sheer force of a massive spiked object hitting you with whatever strength a Carnifex can put into swinging its tail would probably shatter your bones and render you incapable of fighting.

I imagine power armour would keep you safe enough and a Space Marine has an exceedingly tough skeleton, but anything less (a Guardsman for example) and I reckon the skeleton wouldn't hold up to it, regardless of whether it hits the flak armour or not. Not necessarily dead, but probably not capable of continuing the fight. I could be totally wrong, but that seems like it makes sense.

AP 4 or 5 I would say. Or yeah, just bring in save modifiers.

[DWest]

Basically, to protect from the force of a concentrated impact, you need cushioning. A homogenous mass of hard armor tends to "ring like a bell" when hit, as the energy is transmitted straight through. Think a Newton's Cradle- the balls in the middle don't move much, but the one on the opposite end bounces off. Same idea, except replace "ball on the opposite end" with "the meat in your body".

[Tynskel]

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. You said a Space Marine was larger than a bull. I proved that wrong. Now you're saying heavier. Changing the question doesn't make the previous answer incorrect. Furthermore, the average market weight for steers is 624kg, while a Space Marine (in power armor) has been repeatedly specified to be in the range of 500kg, so you're wrong there as well.

Just to be clear, you are trolling, right? You don't actually believe the incompetent rubbish you've been spouting, do you?

I have read multiple sources that space marines weigh between 500 and 1000 kg.

[Tynskel]

Basically, to protect from the force of a concentrated impact, you need cushioning. A homogenous mass of hard armor tends to "ring like a bell" when hit, as the energy is transmitted straight through. Think a Newton's Cradle- the balls in the middle don't move much, but the one on the opposite end bounces off. Same idea, except replace "ball on the opposite end" with "the meat in your body".

power armor has a hard shell and multi-layered sections designed to dissipate the impact and turn it into heat. That heat is the directly transferred to the power pack.

[Haighus]

power armor has a hard shell and multi-layered sections designed to dissipate the impact and turn it into heat. That heat is the directly transferred to the power pack.
Soo.... AP4? ;) Which I think has been mentioned more than once so far. Tbh, I'm not sure why this discussion is still ongoing- the tail has spikes, it is being driven by an abnormally strong engineered organism and it is going to go straight though at least most armour- the armour of an ork boy for example has no chance. The pressure on the tip of one of those spikes is going to punch it through armour in much the same way as the spike on a warhammer or a horseman's pick.
The rationalisation for why they are AP - is clearly "balancing" by GW.

[Lord Krungharr]

Well, I haven't read this whole thread, but I saw Smash Attack and thought I would relay something interesting I thought of for Angraath. He's S10 already, but to really handle a Warhound or Reaver, he would indeed need to Smash Attack, as it's only when Smashing (halving base attacks) do the MCs/Gargantuans get to reroll the AP dice, which vs AV14 would be almost required. Especially if you want to kill a Reaver before it comes back to hit with a Titan Fist/Claw w Strength D. Of course if it doesn't have the fist, then not a super must, and Angraath gets +D6 attacks for charging too.

Food for thought though.