Has the new Tyranid Vanguard dataslate changed your opinion on Tyranid viability?

[Captain Bubonicus]

Well, I just downloaded my copy this morning, and I'm overall quite happy with it - mainly because it makes some units I particularly love a bit more viable. Here are some highlights:

Lictor Forest Broods: 5 lictors instead of 3 - get Shrouded instead of Stealth in forests and can Infiltrate w/in 6" of an enemy model in forests.

Manufactorum Genestealer Formation: 5 minimum-sized broods of Genestealers (5 apiece), gain Hit & Run and may be deployed w/in 6" of an enemy model if infiltrating into a building or ruins.

Deathleaper's Assassin Brood: Deathleaper and 5 individual Lictor Broods - gain Preferred Enemy for characters, and any enemy unit within 12" of at least 1 model from the formation suffers -1 to their Leadership (so no, not "stackable")

Broodlord Hunting Pack: 3 broods and a Broodlord - only 1 Broodlord per formation. Can arrive from Reserve in an unoccupied Building or Ruins (at least 6" away from enemy if in Ruins). Select an enemy unit when the Broodlord is deployed - all models from the formation get Preferred Enemy against the nominated enemy unit.

Gargoyle Bio-Bombs: Fomation of 3 spore mine clusters & 3 Gargoyle broods - spore mines get better movement if they start w/in 6" of a Gargoyle unit from this formation (move 6" in the Movement phase and does not halve distance for running or charging).

So what does this mean? Personally, I love Genestealers - and I think the two formations above make them a LOT more viable to use on the table-top. Most tables have buildings or ruins as scenery, so they'll have plenty of choices of where to "pop up."

I can't see me using the Assassin Brood, but the Forest Broods might be tasty. I dunno...

Before, I thought Spore Mines were pretty much unusable - now, they might be worth another look.

So do these new formations change your opinion on 'Nid viability in 6th? I think if nothing else, we might be seeing a lot more Genestealers doing the "Ymgarl" trick and popping out of scenery - that's the way I'm intending to use 'em, anyway!

[jifel]

Note that the Genestealer broods have no limit on adding models to each brood, they simply have to have 3 or 5 broods. Size is up to you.

I think the Lictor Forest Brood is very nice. Also, the Broodlord pack is great. Infiltrate, go to ground duting your opponent's first turn, then Dominion then up and assault with fury!

[Captain Bubonicus]

Are you sure? The formation restriction for Manufactorum Genestealers says "Manufactorum Genestealer Broods may not include additional Genestealers" - I took that to mean that they had to be the standard brood size of 5 Genestealers.

[jifel]

hmm... You may be right then. i'll have to go double-check my copy.

[Captain Bubonicus]

Even at minimum size, 5 troops choices popping up in buildings is one helluva distraction. While it's still a major expenditure, it still comes in at under 400 pts. and has GREAT "distraction" potential. With "hit-and-run," you can keep spreading the action further and further afield...at least, as long as the min. sized broods can hold out!

[Nefarius Drapesh]

guess the have a rule preventing them from running after their special deployment. coming out and taking or contesting a mission objective with 5 seperate squads could be fun though...

[Anggul]

They're nice as long as you can guarantee there will be forests and ruins on ever board. Ruins are exceedingly commonplace, but forests not so much, and not always on the same board. It seems good for campaign games but not so much for pick up games. I'm fine with that, playing out a story of a Tyranid invasion is the intent of these dataslates. If they wanted to make Genestealers (not including Broodlords) viable in any game they needed to be cheaper.

[Gleipnir]

They're nice as long as you can guarantee there will be forests and ruins on ever board. Ruins are exceedingly commonplace, but forests not so much, and not always on the same board. It seems good for campaign games but not so much for pick up games. I'm fine with that, playing out a story of a Tyranid invasion is the intent of these dataslates. If they wanted to make Genestealers (not including Broodlords) viable in any game they needed to be cheaper.

Players are already in the habit of carrying around Aegis Defense Lines, what's a forest or two or some ruins for setup during the terrain placement phase, particularly f you know having it will be a key factor to your army's success. I understand the issue is most players don't enjoy transporting larger terrain and fortifications to their FLGS and tend to use what's on hand and available to them there.

[Nefarius Drapesh]

well, vanguard swarm is part one... didn't tyranids change the ecosystem already in part 2 of an invasion?
maybe in dataslate #2 for the tyranids there'll be an option to place additional forests and the like. maybe like cheap fortifications,too.
gw could really sell some forests doing this :D

at my local hobby store there's only one single piece of forest. in the league we run right now the organizer ruled that this forest always has to be taken in every game. but ruins and buildings are plenty...well...

[Theik]

The Deathstalker squad is interesting in that it isn't actually a squad at all, they are all seperate units. Deep striking them all over the place could very well put the entire enemy army at -1 leadership. Does that make the codex any good? No, I don't think so, but it is at least a funny gimmick.

[Captain Bubonicus]

What irritates me is that Lictors' "pheromone trail" power allows no-scatter deep striking - which would be VERY potent if you could still buy 'spods for your troops and deep strike 'em in. However, the deep striking portion of the army has been reduced to Gargoyles, spore mines, Flyrants and Mawlocs...

*shakes fist in the direction of GW*

[John Alva Kay]

What irritates me is that Lictors' "pheromone trail" power allows no-scatter deep striking - which would be VERY potent if you could still buy 'spods for your troops and deep strike 'em in. However, the deep striking portion of the army has been reduced to Gargoyles, spore mines, Flyrants and Mawlocs...

*shakes fist in the direction of GW*

Can't Raveners Deep Strike? as well as Harpy's and Hive Crones?

I really like this new Tyranid Vanguard Dataslate. I was aready excited about using Lictors and Genestealers in my Tyranid Forces (planting a couple scything talons into the Genestealers to avoid adding too many models yet still making them more effective).

The point reduction on the Lictors is good enough to merit the use them of them against Orcs, Tau and Eldar. I'm still wary of using them against Marines, although when you assault marines, you aren't assaulting as many models.

These Vaguart forces really let you get some more instant use out of the Lictors and Genestealers. You still can't assault right after infiltrating though right? Which is they they were given Hit and Run? So you can run away after being assaulted and charge again next turn?

[Winston P Smallhouse]

I have'nt yet seen the data slate, but I read somewhere that the Death leapers lictor formation each gain the shrouded and independent character rules. Please tell me if this is true. If this is true, as then we could add a lictor to each of our termie squads, they'll gain hit and run, and it would be the end of synapse worries as lictors are leadership 10.

[Gleipnir]

Deathleaper's formation doesn't grant shrouded, it adds a -1 leadership bubble and preferred enemy vs characters and infiltrates as normal. and nope they are 6 single model units not independent characters.

Forest Brood Lictor gain shrouded in forest instead of stealth but don't include Deathleaper, and their special rules makes em deploy within 1-6" of an enemy model in a forest, or 12" out of LoS or 18" in plain sight

[The Silent King]

Any of these lictor broods can gtg in your opponent's turn 1, then a flyrant swoops up, grants synapse, they recover immediately and get to assault. That's pretty strong, and I think it works well with the deathleaper assassin squad :)

[brasidas]

Where do the FMCs get their deep strike from?

[Gleipnir]

All Jump units have Deep Strike, but FMC simply move/run/charge like a Jump unit they do not have their Bulky and Deep Strike rules conferred upon them.

[brasidas]

Thanks that's what I thought - I reread their rules for FMCs and couldn't see deep strike anywhere. They just, as you said, move/run/charge like jump troops.

[AlmostMercury]

All Jump units have Deep Strike, but FMC simply move/run/charge like a Jump unit they do not have their Bulky and Deep Strike rules conferred upon them.

There is not exactly a RAW line that allows Flying Monstorous Creatures to Deep Strike, but the old Tyranid FAQ said Harpies and Hive Tyrants could if they purchased the Wings upgrade. The problem is that the FAQ didn't specify whether the wings made the MC an FMC and granted the Deep Strike special rule, or that the FMC could Deep Strike because of what it is.

But, up until 14 days ago, Tyranid FMCs could deep strike.

There's even an FAQ for the rulebook that clarifies which mode Deep Striking FMCs enter the battlefield in, but strictly read it would only apply to FMCs with the Deep Strike special rule.

From an RAI, it's clear that FMCs can, but an RAW doesn't say they can. RAW only says what happens if they do. I'm sure the new FAQ will allow it again, but only time will tell.

[Tarnag]

I was hoping this data slate would at least make me more interested in taking some of my genestealers again, but the reliance on certain terrain definitely makes it iffy for me

[Dlatrex]

For me personally, I certainly do like the formations. I've always enjoyed the concept of lictors but the combination of survivability and fighting for the FOC position has kept me from using them consistently. These formations certainly clear both of those problems up. The Forest Lictors will hit like a freight-train in CC: they'd kill as many marines on the charge as 12 genestealers, and not suffer attrition as quickly. Expensive, but for frag grenades they're pretty great. I'd also love to learn how to use the gargoyles properly, but the sporemines are still a little bit of a question mark for me.

[AlmostMercury]

For me personally, I certainly do like the formations. I've always enjoyed the concept of lictors but the combination of survivability and fighting for the FOC position has kept me from using them consistently. These formations certainly clear both of those problems up. The Forest Lictors will hit like a freight-train in CC: they'd kill as many marines on the charge as 12 genestealers, and not suffer attrition as quickly. Expensive, but for frag grenades they're pretty great. I'd also love to learn how to use the gargoyles properly, but the sporemines are still a little bit of a question mark for me.

But you have to take 5 lictors, so that's 250 points. You can take almost 18 Genestealers for that, and be more likely to deploy them via formation (Ruins are way more common). Or, you could have 18 scoring units with flexible deployment without a formation.

[Gleipnir]

But you have to take 5 lictors, so that's 250 points. You can take almost 18 Genestealers for that, and be more likely to deploy them via formation (Ruins are way more common). Or, you could have 18 scoring units with flexible deployment without a formation.

Nothing requires that the Forest Lictors actually be placed in a forest, you could Deep Strike them or infiltrate/outflank them as normal should you choose, you just get to ignore the FOC and typical brood size.

Personally prefer the Deathleaper formation variety, yes its 380 points but well timed it presents more targets to worry about at once (hopefully at the same time as the rest of your forces) and has the Leadership debuffs going for it.

Just seems tough not to give up First Blood as Nids

[AlmostMercury]

Nothing requires that the Forest Lictors actually be placed in a forest, you could Deep Strike them or infiltrate/outflank them as normal should you choose, you just get to ignore the FOC and typical brood size.

Personally prefer the Deathleaper formation variety, yes its 380 points but well timed it presents more targets to worry about at once (hopefully at the same time as the rest of your forces) and has the Leadership debuffs going for it.

I agree about the Deathleaper formation, I think it's better too. I like the idea of Deathleaper without using an HQ slot, but I'm still not sure what I would do with 5 lictors.



Just seems tough not to give up First Blood as Nids

This is a definite worry. I think if you run it, you start the game playing like you're a point behind.

[CrimsonTurkey]

I think what you do with the five lictors is make the enemy army more susceptible to pinning via barbed strangler/the horror. Haven't tried it yet, but it seems that those lictors would be best used trying to stay alive, and then jumping in wherever they're needed once the rest of the army hits.