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lattd
01-23-2014, 10:27 AM
So a successful kickstarter has been plummeted into chaos because of trouble with their manufacturing company. For the full story here it is:
Torn Armor Update (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/alyssafaden/torn-armor/posts)

What is most frustrating about this not that I have backed, which I haven't but members of my group have. Also its sad when a great idea is damaged by third party issues.

Update: this is getting catty and interesting Defiance Games replied on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/DefianceGames)

After a little digging seems defiance are more than likely in the wrong, as it appears defiance have taken products and agreed deals without paying etc

euansmith
01-23-2014, 12:07 PM
What a shame.

spiralingcadaver
01-23-2014, 04:15 PM
Crazy! Didn't realize those guys were local (relative to me, that is).

Sorry to hear that's happening to 'em...

GrauGeist
01-23-2014, 06:18 PM
Ouch. I hope Natalya files a lien on Defiance.

GrauGeist
01-23-2014, 06:32 PM
BTW, why isn't this titled "Defiance Games steals from Indie game developer"?

eldargal
01-24-2014, 12:24 AM
I hope they pursue all legal options, such a shame.

Gotthammer
01-24-2014, 12:52 AM
defiance games

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5598478336/h0AF730D4/

bfmusashi
01-24-2014, 09:35 AM
Oooooooo, they've got a super professional open letter response on their facebook page. I'vecopy pasted it: An open letter to Alyssa Faden of Torn Armor.

Alyssa,

Did you really have to take so little responsibility and say that WE failed? After a nice paragraph in which you say you should take the blame, you write a long text blaming us. Wrong.

Basically, your figures were not produced because the digital files you provided do not work. Yet you try to shift responsibility for that to Defiance. Defiance DID NOT create the digital files. It was never our responsibility to do that. You should admit that, but you do not.

This is your project -- the only person responsible for the fact that Defiance never received workable files is ultimately you, Alyssa. The buck stops with you when it comes to Torn.

After the original files proved unworkable, the vendor you hired to fix them did not provide results which could be manufactured (Did you really want us to try and make a 20 mm resin figure in 5 parts???). Nothing that happened at Defiance, the 'changing of the guard' or the 'turbulent times' changes that.

You claim to have patience. Well, you are now choosing (it is a choice on your part) to close your project. Ultimately, this might still be a fixable problem. We have suggested possible solutions. You have decided not to do that. That is your decision and your responsibility. Do not blame anyone else for it.

I am really disappointed in you.

John Morse

Mr Mystery
01-24-2014, 10:31 AM
And between this and the debacle of Heroquest 25, we see why I'm really, really wary of Kickstarters.

I know these are the exception to the rule, but even so, too high a risk for little old me.

Lukas The Trickster
01-24-2014, 10:57 AM
And between this and the debacle of Heroquest 25, we see why I'm really, really wary of Kickstarters.

I know these are the exception to the rule, but even so, too high a risk for little old me.

Indeed, I was sorely tempted by the AvP Kickstarter that Prodos Games ran just before Christmas, as a company I know that they are on the level as they succesfully delivered the Warzone resurrection Kickstarter earlier in the year, but I just couldn't hand over £200 of my money for something that I wouldn't receive for several months. Your legal position as an 'investor' effectively in Kickstarter projects all seems a bit grey to me, particularly in the event that a project falls through during production, and where third party suppliers are involved, as has happened here. Spare a thought for the poor buggers who put there money into this one in good faith :(

lattd
01-24-2014, 11:18 AM
The open letter is so bad it's funny, it's just pathetic, I know we don't know the full story but things like files and breaking apart a model are relatively easy standard processes in this business any competent cad designer should be able to do....

Asymmetrical Xeno
01-24-2014, 11:35 AM
The letter didnt at all address why Defiance are still keeping her money..

It also seems another person has had a bad experience with Defiance : http://wargameterrain.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/proxie-models-defiance-games-warning.html

Personally, I think ill avoid that company and anything related to it like the plague.

Bigred
01-24-2014, 02:25 PM
And here is the issue with Kickstarter - you really can't tell the difference between malfeasance and simple inability - especially with 3rd-party company interactions.

When a project fails - its a really sticky area between did they intend to take people's money in the first place, or did they just valiantly wade into deep waters without a snorkel?

It gets stickier as people who aim to steal will always have a quiver full of perfectly reasonable excuses about why they couldn't deliver.

GrauGeist
01-24-2014, 02:57 PM
And between this and the debacle of Heroquest 25, we see why I'm really, really wary of Kickstarters.

I know these are the exception to the rule, but even so, too high a risk for little old me.

In general, when deciding whether to back, you should ask yourself one key question:
1. What is the likelihood they will deliver?

Which explodes into a series of sub-questions:
- did they incorporate as an actual company (CMoN, Soda Pop, SJG, Prodoss), or are is it still a personal project (Alyssa)?
- are the principals reliable & trustworthy (Adam Poots, Mark Mondragon), or shady and scummy (Romeo Filip, Defiance)?
- do they have IP rights (CMoN), or not (HeroQuest25)?
- have they done any production before (Kingdom Death), or not (Alyssa)?
- how organized are they (how the KS is run is a good indication)?
- do they have a plan (Zombicide, Journey, Kingdom Death), or make it up as they go along (Ogre, Relic Knights)?

If you're satisfied that the company is on the up-and-up, knows what the business, and can make it happen, go ahead and throw some money in the jar, considering what you can afford to tie up until they deliver, or lose if they don't.

GrauGeist
01-24-2014, 02:59 PM
It gets stickier as people who aim to steal will always have a quiver full of perfectly reasonable excuses about why they couldn't deliver.

Except, the liar and thief at Defiance doesn't even have a halfway decent excuse.

Mr Mystery
01-24-2014, 03:04 PM
Just too many variables for my tastes.

I may sound a smidge paranoid, but working where I work, I like to know any cash investments are covered by regulation, so should things go belly up there is some come back. It might not involve a refund, but knowing someone has my back, and can ensure suitable punishment/sanctions are imposed on the guilty party helps to settle my nerves

For now, I'll stick with more regular investments. Next few months will see me able to invest around £100 a month in nest eggs. Sad to say Kickstarters won't be benefitting.

wittdooley
01-24-2014, 03:23 PM
Wild West Exodus delivered on time and quite possibly of higher quality than any other miniature game Kickstarter that has existed. So I'd say Romeo has availed himself just fine.

wittdooley
01-24-2014, 03:24 PM
And honestly, including Romeo in the same breath as the Defiance people is incredibly irresponsible.

Christopher Valera
01-24-2014, 03:24 PM
So a successful kickstarter has been plummeted into chaos because of trouble with their manufacturing company. For the full story here it is:
Torn Armor Update (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/alyssafaden/torn-armor/posts)

What is most frustrating about this not that I have backed, which I haven't but members of my group have. Also its sad when a great idea is damaged by third party issues.

Update: this is getting catty and interesting Defiance Games replied on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/DefianceGames)

After a little digging seems defiance are more than likely in the wrong, as it appears defiance have taken products and agreed deals without paying etc

I hate Defiance Games so much, they're clearly the bottom-feeders of the industry. They could take out a loan to return the funds. Natalya should get a lawyer.

--Chris
@chrisvalera
www.chrisvalera.com

Asymmetrical Xeno
01-24-2014, 03:29 PM
Just too many variables for my tastes.

I may sound a smidge paranoid, but working where I work, I like to know any cash investments are covered by regulation, so should things go belly up there is some come back. It might not involve a refund, but knowing someone has my back, and can ensure suitable punishment/sanctions are imposed on the guilty party helps to settle my nerves

For now, I'll stick with more regular investments. Next few months will see me able to invest around £100 a month in nest eggs. Sad to say Kickstarters won't be benefitting.

I don't think it's a bad thing to be a bit paranoid though. This is also partly why I will personally never do a kickstarter myself. Like quite a few people who run a KS , I am very inexperienced with running a business and I'd personally much rather save up my own money and fund my project out of my own pocket (which I can do, it will take longer but that's what id rather do myself), than risk the pockets of other people - not having a go at anyone at all, but that's my personal position on it. I do hope that woman can get her money back and find a solution to this - it seems her backers are being very supportive though which is nice to see.

GrauGeist
01-24-2014, 03:39 PM
Romeo Filip has been caught lying to TOs and the community at large, then trying to sweep the criticism away.

http://www.popehat.com/2013/05/02/battlefoam-learns-why-legal-threats-can-be-dangerous/

He's a shady scumbag.

TashaG
01-24-2014, 04:26 PM
When it comes to kickstarters, I have two ways to invest. One is when I am sure of the company involved and their suppliers (ie Mark Mondragon and Wargames Factory, Reaper Miniatures). I feel pretty comfortable investing a decent amount of money in their project.

Smaller companies that don't have any track record like the Torn Armor project or a gadzillion projects on KS right now. I try to invest less than $50 bucks and usually only $20 -$30. That way if the product doesn't arrive or is less than what was promised then I don't feel quite so bad.

Denzark
01-24-2014, 04:49 PM
GW may be expensive, but I have never NOT got the goods I pay them for ;)

Paint Grot
01-24-2014, 07:04 PM
I funded Wild West Exodus and Dwarven forge's Game tiles. Both were great. Unfortunately, I also funded Relic Knights by Cmon and Soda Pop minis. Those clowns have been screwing around for months. They are over 7 months past their due date and still have no definate end in sight. Not to mention, they have been blaming some of the delays on spending time on other projects they are developing.

FastEd
01-24-2014, 08:28 PM
GW may be expensive, but I have never NOT got the goods I pay them for ;)

And that's relevant to Kickstarter projects how? I always get my product from every company I purchase from, be it a giant like GW or Corvus Belli which is a tiny operation in Spain.

wittdooley
01-24-2014, 08:47 PM
Romeo Filip has been caught lying to TOs and the community at large, then trying to sweep the criticism away.

http://www.popehat.com/2013/05/02/battlefoam-learns-why-legal-threats-can-be-dangerous/

He's a shady scumbag.

Boo hoo. His KS was still one of the most responsibly run that I've seen. And he knows how to conduct a successful business.

GrauGeist
01-25-2014, 12:33 AM
I also funded Relic Knights by Cmon and Soda Pop minis. Those clowns have been screwing around for months. They are over 7 months past their due date and still have no definate end in sight. Not to mention, they have been blaming some of the delays on spending time on other projects they are developing.

Yeah, Relic Knights now has every indication of being Ogre late.

lattd
01-25-2014, 01:26 AM
That's the think I don't get how people say it's a due date with a kick starter it says quite clearly this is an estimate but still 7 months later than your estimate is bad.

Denzark
01-25-2014, 03:50 AM
And that's relevant to Kickstarter projects how? I always get my product from every company I purchase from, be it a giant like GW or Corvus Belli which is a tiny operation in Spain.

If you cannot see a correlation in a discussion about one company who takes your money and gives you nothing and one who takes your money and you always get something, my old china, then I cannot help you.

Mr Mystery
01-26-2014, 03:21 AM
In the UK, the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA, not to be confused with the Ferengi Commerce Authority) will be regulating Crowd Sourcing.

Last I heard was the consultation had begun, and that should be concluded.

What it will mean, I don't know. But right now, there is little to stop the project runners simply taking the funds and legging it. There's no really comeback.

Consider the amount some can raise, and marry that to the morals (or indeed lack thereof) of known scammers, like the goon who ran Forgeworld-Discount and various others.....

euansmith
01-26-2014, 04:42 AM
Have you never bought a Finecast Miniature then? :)

pauljc
01-29-2014, 03:51 AM
I think people are too ready to jump on the hate wagon without any real understanding of anything involving product design and manufacture, and without being in possession of any real facts.

All you have there is a soulful complain from Alyssa, which is fairly short on fact or concise information. And then you have a much longer, more concise and informative response from Defiance admitting fully to their own problems and describing very precisely why they haven't delivered.

Either way, no skin off my nose, aside the fact that it is shame that the young ladies involved had their first venture into game design turn out so badly. Hopefully they keep on trying.

Personally, I think Kickstarter is going to end up the same way as D&D's Open Gaming License. A market flooded with 80% crap. Because, what we really need in these hard times, is another book about halflings...

lattd
01-29-2014, 04:24 AM
Here's the issue defiance admitted they couldn't do something's, but refuse to give the money back, now that is very wrong, yes both sides made mistakes but to say oh we haven't got the money that should be in a seperate account is very questionable.

eldargal
01-29-2014, 06:54 AM
I think people are too ready to jump on the hate wagon without any real understanding of anything involving product design and manufacture, and without being in possession of any real facts.
Yep, people are too ready to believe the words of a dubious businessman with a track record of non delivery and place blame on the creator for not doing more to compensate for events out of her control. He took her money for a service he has not delivered and refuses to return it or fulfill the contract. That is not in anyway the creators fault.

MarneusCalgar
01-29-2014, 08:14 AM
So finally what happened then?

I got lost sorry

lattd
01-29-2014, 08:25 AM
Good news on this game! So it will continue with the miniatures to come later but the first phrase will include the basic game. Second the response from the community has been fantastic with many companies offering to help.

Finally defiance game has made two offers to repay the money and failed to do so twice.

GrauGeist
01-29-2014, 03:43 PM
I think people are too ready to jump on the hate wagon without any real understanding of anything involving product design and manufacture, and without being in possession of any real facts.

DreamForge did a nice writeup of the economics in question on Jan 24: "Kickstartes the Wild West of Financing Dreams"

Alyssa / Natalya might likely have failed, but it's hard to say when someone else is holding her money for no valid reason.

And as for the funds, Defiance's KS raised at least as much as they have stolen from Alyssa / Natalya. It's unconscionable that they would not return her money.

thearcani
01-29-2014, 03:59 PM
This really does show how important it is to make sure that the team of people running the kickstarter have some knowledge of manufacturing when they are producing models. Of course the Chinese company upped their quote after they saw the project was fully funded. They tried to see if they could squeeze more money out of it however was possible. It also appears that they did not do their due diligence in selecting who to use when it fell through. While I feel sorry for them and hope it all works out, it just gives me another reason not to back kickstarters until the project is rolled out or comes from a company that has a good track record :(

GrauGeist
01-29-2014, 09:07 PM
Torn Armor raised less than $68,000.00. Of which, Torn received a hair over $60,000 to cover all costs after 10% KS / Amazon fees.

Looking at the backers, at least 396 pledged $35+ and will get the Fat Dragon Games Dragonshire Deluxe Edition ($13 MSRP), for a nominal wholesale cost of $3k. Of those, at least 383 pledged $75+ and will get the Reaper Clockwork Dragon ($25 MSRP), for a nominal wholesale cost of $6k. Those $75+ pledgers also get 25 dice each (7,000 total), with a nominal cost of $1 each ($7k) Total 3rd party costs around $15k.

That leaves about $45k for all other costs.

Pretend rules and printing are under $5 each in bulk, and backer shipping is $20 each in bulk, for another $10+k in costs.

That leaves at most $35k for all miniatures tooling and production.

There are at least 388 backers who will get at least 39 miniatures, so minimum production is 15,000 models, pretending production and shipping is only $1 per model, that's $15k in models, leaving only $20k for molds.

The KS page shows at least 35 different sculpts (5 of which are LARGE), so average mold cost would have to be under $575 per mold. That is very low for cutting injection plastic:

http://www.custompartnet.com/estimate/injection-tooling/

No Chinese company was about to take a bath on the project when the Alyssa / Natalia would meet original production volumes, hence the price increase.


And my prices are probably all on the low side - go ahead and cross check them yourself.


Torn promised too much for too little.

daboarder
01-29-2014, 09:59 PM
Thats all well and good grau, but defiance doesn't get to just hold onto the cash and say NAH AH!

edit: see its **** like this why I dont touch kickstarter (though KD was tempting)

GrauGeist
01-30-2014, 12:46 AM
I never said Defiance should be allowed to hold a penny of her money.

I said that Torn Armor probably didn't have adequate budget to do the minis they promised as part of their KS, based on the available revenue.

Those are two different things, but likely related, as Torn probably went to Defiance when they couldn't find any legitimate company to take the work for the amount of revenue offered.

GrauGeist
01-30-2014, 12:47 AM
Also, while I have had multiple KS go late, I have yet to have one fail in a significant way, as Torn appears it will do.

pauljc
02-01-2014, 05:50 AM
Yep, people are too ready to believe the words of a dubious businessman with a track record of non delivery and place blame on the creator for not doing more to compensate for events out of her control. He took her money for a service he has not delivered and refuses to return it or fulfill the contract. That is not in anyway the creators fault.

I am in complete agreement there. If money was given under agreement that a certain thing happen, and that thing did not happen, then it should naturally be paid back.