Throwing in the Tau'el

[Bedroom General]

Dear Bolsketeers,
What would make the Tau more competitive?
One of my friends and I have Tau forces. He has since switched to SM's due to the difficulty of playing competitively with his Tau, and he has just about everything, including FW stuff. We had a conversation about this and I'd like to share some thoughts we had, and I look forward to other input.

Here are some of our ideas:
1. Gundrones as troop choices, with a rail rifle drone (or drones) as a heavy weapon upgrade.
2. Rail rifles and marker lights should be assault weapons. (move and fire)
3. Stingwings should be able to use their weapon as a power weapon in hth as well as firing it as they do, it fits with the close range of the weapon.
4.Ethereals need to not be useless, who else has a HQ unit that is actually detrimental to their army? especially wheelchair boy and his carers.
5.Ballistic skill 4 is needed for an army without a valid cc ability, that's a third of the game right there where Tau just cringe and die.
5. More drone variants generally.
6. Obviously points need to be adjusted to bring tau in line with later 'dexes.

Well that's our wish list. I'd like to think that an army with such gaping weaknesses would be using far more drones, they have the best initiative in the list, for Aun's sake. I know what I would be doing if I were a little blue guy with no depth perception, and bad hand to eye co-ordination "Let slip the frisbees of war! I'm hiding in this trench".

Peace out:rolleyes:

[Denzark]

WS, BS, S,T, I 4 - W 1 A 1 Ld 8. Power Armour, ATSKNF.

[Chumbalaya]

Tau can work, but you have to do it very specifically. Check over on Y.T.T.H., there are some solid Tau armies and tactics.

As for fixing them.
1) Cheaper vehicles, everything is overpriced.
2) Make FW worthwhile, either with squad heavy/specials or something that makes them able to threaten armor beyond glancing hits.
3) Give Kroot straight up stealth and MtC
4) Cheaper suits, make alternatives to Fireknife viable.
5) Vespid 18" assault 2 guns
6) Krootox 24-36"assault 2 weapon
7) Skyrays with unlimited missiles
8) Drones don't count for KPs or morale!
9) Ethereals don't screw your army over.
10) Ion Cannon S7 AP3 Heavy 3 (viable alternative to Railgun, capable of nailing light armor) and affordable.

[Faultie]

I4 on the Kroot wouldn't be terrible either. If they're going to have a cheap, non-saving-throw equipped, melee-screen unit, it might as well get to attack before it's wiped out. If they could leap (not sure how that would be represented) like in DoW, that would be cool too!

But Chumbalaya makes some great suggestions.

[Herald of Nurgle]

I've begun working on a draft of a Tau 'dex... let the cheese run like water in the sky...

[Lord Azaghul]

Tau are an amazing army if played right, and smartly. I have a friend who can grind pretty much any army (except daemons for whatever reason) to dust with his Tau. They have THE best tank killing gun in the game. They have marker lights...learn to use these. The can have easily obscured transports from ranged attackes greater then 12" away. They have broadsides with rail guns. Learn to use cover! Don't engage the enemy in CC unless its a squishy target.

[Rapture]

There has also been a "Eldar should be BS 4" argument recently. They don't. Neither do Tau. Would I enjoy hitting on a 3+? Sure. But that isn't what Tau are about. I like that Fire Warriors aren't perfect, it gives them some character.

[Fizyx]

Tau can work, but you have to do it very specifically. Check over on Y.T.T.H., there are some solid Tau armies and tactics.

As for fixing them.
1) Cheaper vehicles, everything is overpriced.
2) Make FW worthwhile, either with squad heavy/specials or something that makes them able to threaten armor beyond glancing hits.
3) Give Kroot straight up stealth and MtC
4) Cheaper suits, make alternatives to Fireknife viable.
5) Vespid 18" assault 2 guns
6) Krootox 24-36"assault 2 weapon
7) Skyrays with unlimited missiles
8) Drones don't count for KPs or morale!
9) Ethereals don't screw your army over.
10) Ion Cannon S7 AP3 Heavy 3 (viable alternative to Railgun, capable of nailing light armor) and affordable.

1) You mean 85 points for a AV12 transport skimmer that has a 4+ cover save to anything more than 12" away is overpriced? Hardly. Expensive does not equal overpriced. There is a reason why I will pay 145 points for a DF and 6 FW that does nothing except scoot towards objectives on turn 3,4,5.
2) Honestly, I DO think FW are maybe 1 point too expensive, but otherwise I like how they are now.
3) Stealth? They already get a 2+ cover save if they go to ground in the woods, that should be enough, really.
4) There are alternatives to Fireknives. Hell, I just tabled an opponent last night without one. (How many guys do you have in that bunker? Oh, well, that'll be 37 hits on your guardsmen with my 4 twin-linked flamers that wound you on a 3 and ignore cover save. Man, that was unbelievable.)
5) Seriously? Vespids need fixing, not over-powering. The problem with Vespids is they just do not have a niche in a fifth edition codex. Honestly all they probably need is a price reduction, but for now they'll just sit on my shelf and look pretty.
6) Krootox just need to be able to form their own unit. I would like to bring them if I could do so and still outflank with the rest of my Kroot. For now they sit next to the Vespids on the one shelf the cats can not get to.
7) Unlimited S8 AP3, limited by markerlights? (oh man, 24 pathfinders go go go.) Maybe an option to reload (Like, instead of moving or firing, reload D6 missiles)
8) 100% agreed, but for now we can deal with it.
9) Again, agreed.
10) We already have that, it can come on a Hammerhead.

Honestly, I do think that there can be some great changes, but every army that has a 4th edition codex can say the same thing. In the meantime, I do pretty well with my Tau and I don't see any real need for a change. Of course I would like to see a new codex, but "want" and "need" are two separate concepts.

[Jwolf]

Tau need a complete redo.

Tau need:
Some sort of CC option that isn't naked birdmen.
Ability to flee from combat and not die.
Across the board cost reductions.
No KP for drones.
Squad weapon upgrades.
Devilfish weapon upgrades.
Psychic defense.
And most of the stuff other people are talking about, especially AP3 large blasts.

That said, I love the title.

Who shoots Devilfish at > 12"? If I'm shooting Devilfish at long range, you've already lost.

[PurplePeopleEater]

Dear Bolsketeers,
Well that's our wish list. I'd like to think that an army with such gaping weaknesses would be using far more drones, they have the best initiative in the list, for Aun's sake. I know what I would be doing if I were a little blue guy with no depth perception, and bad hand to eye co-ordination "Let slip the frisbees of war! I'm hiding in this trench".

Peace out:rolleyes:

OMG that made me laugh so hard......... Tau were my very first army back when the first came out like 7 or 8 years ago.

Yes they should have a BS bump, and more drones would probably fit but.....

as far as a marker light being Assault? have you ever tried to use a laser designator on the move much less running over uneven ground with bits of garbage, parts of vehicles, parts of people carrying a hundred pounds of gear ....... oh and being shot at by 8 foot tall genetically engineered psychos with fully automatic micro rocket launchers? doesn't work......

an idea might be suicide drones with demo charges...... now that would be for the greater good

[Lord Azaghul]

Who shoots Devilfish at > 12"? If I'm shooting Devilfish at long range, you've already lost.


Um, turns 1&2 when all the fire warriors are hiding in them and you have ANY ranged weapons!

[Chumbalaya]

1) You mean 85 points for a AV12 transport skimmer that has a 4+ cover save to anything more than 12" away is overpriced? Hardly. Expensive does not equal overpriced. There is a reason why I will pay 145 points for a DF and 6 FW that does nothing except scoot towards objectives on turn 3,4,5.
2) Honestly, I DO think FW are maybe 1 point too expensive, but otherwise I like how they are now.
3) Stealth? They already get a 2+ cover save if they go to ground in the woods, that should be enough, really.
4) There are alternatives to Fireknives. Hell, I just tabled an opponent last night without one. (How many guys do you have in that bunker? Oh, well, that'll be 37 hits on your guardsmen with my 4 twin-linked flamers that wound you on a 3 and ignore cover save. Man, that was unbelievable.)
5) Seriously? Vespids need fixing, not over-powering. The problem with Vespids is they just do not have a niche in a fifth edition codex. Honestly all they probably need is a price reduction, but for now they'll just sit on my shelf and look pretty.
6) Krootox just need to be able to form their own unit. I would like to bring them if I could do so and still outflank with the rest of my Kroot. For now they sit next to the Vespids on the one shelf the cats can not get to.
7) Unlimited S8 AP3, limited by markerlights? (oh man, 24 pathfinders go go go.) Maybe an option to reload (Like, instead of moving or firing, reload D6 missiles)
8) 100% agreed, but for now we can deal with it.
9) Again, agreed.
10) We already have that, it can come on a Hammerhead.

1) A Chimera is 55 and worlds better. Tau don't need overpriced junk, they need a cheap and effective transport. Fire Warriors not sucking in tandem with Devilfishes sucking less would be very handy.
2) FW are garbage at present, too pricey and just completely ineffectual.
3) It's another complicated 3rd/4th rule that can be easily streamlined.
4) TL flamer suits are horrible, I suggest playing against kindergarteners instead of preschoolers.
5) Yes, the flying guardsmen with a S4 gun are overpowered. Har har.
6) That would be nice, separate units (hunting packs of Krootox and Hounds that can merge with normal kroot units or stay separate)
7) Sure, why not. If you're using markerlights for that, then you aren't reducing cover saves or raising BS.
10) Is it S7 already? Make it cheaper then.

Something else I thought of,
-More kroot stuff, like Gnarloc riders, Master Shapers and Greater Gnarlocs. I had a kroot army for a bit but now it is totally useless.
-Pathfinders as Troops, gives a nice alternative to FW.

[Nabterayl]

I don't think the ion cannon pricing is really an issue ... it's already only 15 points. The main thing I'd like to see on Hammerheads is coming with twin burst cannons for free, rather than +10 points. Still, an ion cannon Hammerhead is a really good buy. 130 points gets you a Hammerhead with an S7 AP3 heavy 3 weapon and two S5 AP5 assault 3 weapons that shoots like a Fast vehicle and has essentially a 4+ cover save all the time, except against bikes (since you can move 12" and still fire the ion cannon)

[Duke]

I have played some Tau and I can say that I absolutely do not want Tau having BS 4. For Emperors sake Marines (the super soldiers of the galaxy) have BS 4. Im almost getting tired of people thinking that their little army should be on the same level! Marines aer the exception, not the rule. stop trying to make everything a different coloured marine!

Now, if Tau want to have something in their army that makes it easier to hit then fine. But not a base BS 4.

What I would like to see is an alien Imperial Guard!

For Example:
- Tanks with high power at long range
- cheaper infantry that can pound an army as it comes toward you.
- Battle suits that can wipe out squads in one turn. (glass cannon)

One thing I can 100% agree with is that your HQ shouldn't hurt your army. If the etheral dies it should piss off the Tau and make them all count as furious charge next turn (or something like that... twinlinked?)

that is my two cents...

[Nabterayl]

- Tanks with high power at long range
You know, except for the lack of an AP3 template, in my opinion the Hammerhead is already one of the best tanks in the game, if not the best. It can already outshoot any other vehicle in the game at 12" or more, and it only costs 165 points - on par with a Leman Russ, and much more capable unless you're shooting at Sv3+ infantry in the open. I can see making them cheaper as part of an overall army list buff, but taken in isolation, I think they still compare very favorably to other races' tanks.

They also are one of the few Tau units that still feels right to me, in that the Hammerhead is a main battle tank in a universe that otherwise lacks such units (with the possible exception of the fire prism).

[SombreBrotherhood]

Well, you know we get the eminently useful preferred enemy USR if'n we pass OR fail that morale check when an Aun dies...so...that's useful...maybe.

@ Fizyx: On the topic of the Kroot...really? Forests don't often show up at my FLGS or in any of the tournaments. Taking the chance that their entire shtick will be used only 1 in 5 times is pretty lame. It's almost as silly as the Chimera having the amphibious rule. When, I ask, have people used it? If it's more than 1 in 10 times, that's awesome, b/c it means you guys put together meaningful tables and a lot of thought into your setup...

But the stealth USR fits. They are, after all, chameleonic at heart. Give the Kroot Stealth, MtC, and Infiltrate.

Furthermore...how about larger squads of Battlesuits? 1-5 man squads, identical wargear except for the team leader? What about a power weapon option as one of the two weapon slots ala Prime's pop-out skewer for the aforementioned team leader?

...more than 18" range on a burst cannon? After all, it's S5 and a 'main' weapon. Either that, or vehicle wargear that makes them and SMSs count as defensive. I'd buy it. And it'd mean you'd see stealth suits on the table again!

...SMSs should ignore cover if I don't need to see my target in the first place...

...markerlights should all be networked, and need their own sub-rule on firing them so that squad A can benefit from squad A's own markerlight.

...and finally, a special character that can produce from more than 12" away from her enemies. Really? A Tau unit that ABSOLUTELY MUST be in charge range to attack something?

[Fizyx]

@ Fizyx: On the topic of the Kroot...really? Forests don't often show up at my FLGS or in any of the tournaments. Taking the chance that their entire shtick will be used only 1 in 5 times is pretty lame. It's almost as silly as the Chimera having the amphibious rule. When, I ask, have people used it? If it's more than 1 in 10 times, that's awesome, b/c it means you guys put together meaningful tables and a lot of thought into your setup...

But the stealth USR fits. They are, after all, chameleonic at heart. Give the Kroot Stealth, MtC, and Infiltrate.

The Kroot home world of Pech is covered in forests and inhospitable rocky wasteland. I know the jungle theme is limiting, but it makes sense fluff-wise and still gives you a boost if you happen to have a forest region on the map. Most games I play have at least one forest region and I do what I can to make sure I can either place them there at the beginning of the game or get them there ASAP.

We already have a model with stealth, we do not need another one.

In any case, I just get tired of people complaining about a codex being underwhelming when you can make a completely capable army within the existing rules.

[Fizyx]

Also, Jeremy, I don't know what pre-schoolers you are playing with, but in my town twin-linked flamers are great at fishing Eldar and Guard out of cover. In other news, keep the insults to a minimum, please.

[Duke]

You know, except for the lack of an AP3 template, in my opinion the Hammerhead is already one of the best tanks in the game, if not the best. It can already outshoot any other vehicle in the game at 12" or more, and it only costs 165 points - on par with a Leman Russ, and much more capable unless you're shooting at Sv3+ infantry in the open. I can see making them cheaper as part of an overall army list buff, but taken in isolation, I think they still compare very favorably to other races' tanks.

They also are one of the few Tau units that still feels right to me, in that the Hammerhead is a main battle tank in a universe that otherwise lacks such units (with the possible exception of the fire prism).

Yea, my post wasnt so much that they lack the main battle tank. What I was saying is that I think that it should be like that with more tanks like the Hammerhead that can make people hurt at range. I agree that the hammerhead is a great tank (but could be lowered in price a smidge). My feeling is that the rest of the codex should come up to its level.

Like I said I would like to see a Tau that are essentially an alien IG. Whereas the Eldar can be more like an alien Marines (Aspect warriors).


Duke

[EmperorEternalXIX]

The thing that Tau need is better players.

Every Tau I know has refused utterly to adapt his fireknife spam/fFW gunline lists from 4th edition and now has no idea what to do, and instead has decided that 5th edition sucks and have shelved their armies.

[Wildwolf45]

The thing that Tau need is better players.

Every Tau I know has refused utterly to adapt his fireknife spam/fFW gunline lists from 4th edition and now has no idea what to do, and instead has decided that 5th edition sucks and have shelved their armies.

This, this, this, a thousand times this.

Tau are not a gunline army any more if they ever were. They have some of the best mobility, protection, and fire projection in the game. USE IT!

Tau rules and stats are fine, about the only thing I think they need is a points adjustment here and there. FW are a bit too much for their cost, as are Piranhas. The problem with the Tau 'Dex and points cost is that there is a very fine line for units and the wargear you add to them. Too little gear and they're cheap and ineffective. Too much gear and they're great but overpriced.

[sketchesofpayne]

http://i48.tinypic.com/nyiesm.jpg

Tau are a very competitive army. My friend's Tau are the terror of our gaming group. He's won a few times blasting his opponent away before they got out of their deployment zone.

From my observations the Tau player has to be very careful during deployment. A good deployment will make or break your game. Other than that, just don't get charged if you can help it.

[Faultie]

I also think the Kroot Rifle should be assault 1. The idea that their breach-loading rifles can "rapid fire" is a bit silly.

[Lord Azaghul]

Yea, my post wasnt so much that they lack the main battle tank. What I was saying is that I think that it should be like that with more tanks like the Hammerhead that can make people hurt at range. I agree that the hammerhead is a great tank (but could be lowered in price a smidge). My feeling is that the rest of the codex should come up to its level.

(Aspect warriors).


Duke


Oh I so don't want the price of the Hammerhead lowered! S10 Ap1, or the S6 Ap4 large blast option! AV13 too right? That thing is pretty awesome as it it!
I'm sure that they will get a variety of new things just like every book is atm. The question is when since gw really really thinks every player owns 4 different sm chapters.

[Herald of Nurgle]

Oh I so don't want the price of the Hammerhead lowered! S10 Ap1, or the S6 Ap4 large blast option! AV13 too right? That thing is pretty awesome as it it!
I'm sure that they will get a variety of new things just like every book is atm. The question is when since gw really really thinks every player owns 4 different sm chapters.
Don't they? I know that I certainly d... oh, wait, i've got 4 csm warbands :P

I think it's only the firepower the army can deal out which needs changing. The big troop squads - Ork boyz, gaunts, combined IG squads - need to be dealt with it seems.

[MarshalAdamar]

My buddy and I both play Tau, I have a Farsight enclave army and he has regular Tau.

We’ve talked a lot about what the Tau need (clearly they need SOMETHING).

FIRE WARRIORS

Either fire warriors need to have photon and Emp grenades for FREE (like space marine frag and krak) OR the basic fire warrior needs to be cheaper. Also an upgrade the unit size to a max of 15 just for more fire power in a squad.

Since Tau are terrible at CC and have no access to any kind of power weapon etc (Which I like, I don’t think they should but they should have developed tactics to deal with armies that do.

So though it would be good to give fire warrior squads with a shas’ui the hit and run special ability maybe with some kind of boost to make more likely they can break from combat.

The idea being that they fight to fall back to a defensive line so they can shoot again.

When the Tau get charged, I though it might be cool to give them the option of making a leader ship test if the unit is lead by a shas’ui and if passed they get to make a volley of point blank shooting at the same initiative as the attacker. So 12 fire warriors charged by 7 striking scorpions lets say would make 24 point blank shots at I:5 instead of their cc attacks. After the initial charge though they would fight as normal.

The other option I though for them would be to have flachette dischargers for the unit rule. Idea is that when the Tau set up the fire warrior unit the unit deploys flachette mines around its close perimeter.

BATTLE SUITS

I mean these things are portrayed as the bread and butter of the Tau army.

They have 2 wounds but only T4 so they get insta killed left and right. They need to be more of a main stay. A unit of rocket launcher devestors will take out a whole 3 man unit from across the board easily.

I would like to see Battle suits be BS:3 WS:3 S:5 T:5 W:2 I:3 A:2 Sv:3+ Ld 8

Unit size should be changed to 1-5 OR allow the Tau to take two units for one elites slot.

Keep them cheap 25pts with no systems or weapons.
Let all suits have access to basic hard wired systems
Have upgrade suits like Shas’ ui or team leader be able to take special issue war gear

Body guard suits would be more expensive but have a hard wired shield generator (4+) and form a retinue with the HQ they protect.

Also I think it would be cool for the Shas’ui or Shas’ o to have an Optimus prime style power weapon that was available from the war gear section. OR at least let the HQ have access to it even if you make it 20 points.

All battle suits should have the hit and run USR, photon grenades built in and the ability to take flachette dischargers as hard wired war gear.

PATH FINDERS

Path finders should have the same rules and gear as the fire warriors in addition to their own.

They should have to ability to allow rerolls for deep strikers even if they do not have a devil fish and they should not HAVE to buy a devil fish.

Other than that I think they’re fine. .

STEALTH TEAMS = OK

KROOT = OK

VESPID = Vespids need something (I don’t use them so I’m not sure what though)

HAMMER HEAD = The hammer head is probably one of he best tanks in the game I think its fine

SKYRAY = Should have unlimited seeker missiles.

Really, it can fire TWO by itself IF it hits with both marker lights. Even then it has to roll to hit AGAIN with the missile then wound.

Hardly Uber powerful. Makes the shooting statistics LESS than an equivalent BS 4 unit because it has to hit with BS 4 to start then again with BS 5 just to get a hit.

If it had that it would be a good viable choice to take a heavy support slot from either broad sides or hammer heads (both better than the skyray right now)

BROADSIDES
They should have photon grenades built in and the ability to take flachette dischargers as hard wired war gear.

BS:3 WS:3 S:5 T:5 W:2 I:3 A:2 Sv:3+ Ld 9

DRONES

Should be fearless (duh, they’re drones!) & Heavy gun drones should be a heavy support choice.

PIRAHANA

Are pretty equivalent to land speeders so I think they’re fine except that they should be able to be upgraded to the FW one with the rail guns


SNIPER DRONES

I don’t know much about those guys, right now they look pretty useless.

They should get a +1 to their cover save, have the same stealth rule as the stealth suits be BS 4 Then they would be pretty worth while.

There are some weapons that need to get redone such as the burst cannon.

Burst cannons are terrible, 18” range?? REALLY? Compare to the closest things you have for Marines, the assault cannon and the heavy bolter.

Burst cannons lose on ALL fronts to the assault cannon which has MORE range and more shots with a higher STR and lower AP AND RENDING!

Same can be said for the heavy bolter except for the STR and number of shots which are the same, but the heavy bolder has twice the range.

Burst cannons should be S:5 AP:4 Assault 4 24” (compromise between the assault cannon and the heavy bolter)

Missile pods are good but I would like it if they had a small blast template like regular rocket launchers.

Plasma rifles are great.

Flamers should be a bit more expensive and be HEAVY flamers

Fusion blasters are fine

Ion Cannon should be Str 7 (I think its 6??) Other than that it’s good

Rail gun is great

[Herald of Nurgle]

I've got my current progress on a 'redux' down here: http://www.2shared.com/file/10058148/fb710275/Codex_Tau_Empire_Redux.html

[DarkLink]

10) Is it S7 already? Make it cheaper then.

-Pathfinders as Troops, gives a nice alternative to FW.

It is already Str 7. And it's only 15pts, compared to the Railgun's 50. If anything needs to have its price cut, it's the base chassis of the Hammerhead, not the weapons.

[Lerra]

Burst Cannon range increase to 24"
Smart Missile System increase to S6
Crisis suits with photon grenades
A kroot upgrade character with a power weapon
Fix the named HQs so they are viable again
More ordinance or template weapons added to the army
Move a few IA choices into the GW codex (Piranha TX-42, Heavy Gun Drone, skimmer rules for the Remora gun drone)
Fire warriors either need a way to escape combat (like Hit&Run or Combat Tactics) or a way to shoot a unit that is charging them instead of getting their normal attacks in CC.

[Duke]

I forgot who mentioned it (And Im too lazy to look) but I really like the idea of "Hit and Run," for FW. Assuming that the weapons are rapid fire, it would give them really something to handle assault. I would couple this with the Etheral making FW stubborn.

Thus you could do this:

Fire on your turn (Can't charge cause of Rapid fire), get assaulted by the enemy in their turn, lick your wounds and retreat with "Hit and Run." then rapid fire again. Granted your going to get assaulted again, but if you have enough firewarriors in range you can put 2+ squads on the enemy unit which just charged your hit and run FW.

That wouldn't make Tau too powerful, but would give them some options for assault.

Duke

[Chumbalaya]

Ooh, somebody's calling me out by my name, that's hardcore. TL flamer suits are garbage dude, if you need to kill entrenched infantry, Railgun subs and markerlights do it better, if anybody lets you suits get in flamer range they've got big problems.

Thanks for the clarification on the Ion Cannon, if that's the case then a cheaper basic Hammerhead will be plenty. Maybe 4 shots?

Hit & run would be a cool idea for FW, but I2 really isn't very helpful.

Instead of giving the Skyray unlimited missiles per turn, just limit it to 4 per turn so it can do a lot of damage but requires markerlights to make it work. Giving other vehicles, suits, or even infantry access to missiles (as well as increasing markerlight numbers, by making Pathfinders Troops maybe) would be a nice and characterful way to give Tau more so they don't have to rely on the same units every game.

[Duke]

Ooh, somebody's calling me out by my name, that's hardcore. TL flamer suits are garbage dude, if you need to kill entrenched infantry, Railgun subs and markerlights do it better, if anybody lets you suits get in flamer range they've got big problems.

Thanks for the clarification on the Ion Cannon, if that's the case then a cheaper basic Hammerhead will be plenty. Maybe 4 shots?

Hit & run would be a cool idea for FW, but I2 really isn't very helpful.

Instead of giving the Skyray unlimited missiles per turn, just limit it to 4 per turn so it can do a lot of damage but requires markerlights to make it work. Giving other vehicles, suits, or even infantry access to missiles (as well as increasing markerlight numbers, by making Pathfinders Troops maybe) would be a nice and characterful way to give Tau more so they don't have to rely on the same units every game.


The thing I like about hit and run is that it doesn't make them too powerful, but gives them a chance before they are "written off."

Pathfinders as troops would be grrrreat. But probably won't happen.

So all it takes to be hardcore is to call you out by name? Well then, good sir, I call you out to a duel to the pain!

Duke

[Nabterayl]

I'd drop the obligatory Pathfinder Devilfish as well. Pathfinders are not bad units as they are, and it's not like they're competing with much in the Fast Attack slot ... but paying an 80 point tax so a unit armed with only heavy weapons can have a dedicated transport makes it difficult to take as many Pathfinders as you might want. I know there are ways to use the Devilfish, but I think it would open up the codex in a good way if it was an option.

[Bedroom General]

Thanks for responses so far, food for thought as I had hoped.

Seems that apart from wanting drones to be KP free there aint a lot of love for what are my favourite units in the codex. I love the idea of an army who uses floating discs as warriors, that is smart and different GW!

I am, as I have said, an unabashed fan of drones. I'd like more variants and maybe move them to troops, they've got the ballistic skill of a green potato (ork) mitigated somewhat by twin linking, a decent Initiative and jsj all for 8 pts, oh and the weapon can pin. That is a good unit right there, I always field two units.

I'd say that losing kps for the drones that leap off vehicles makes sense, but not for gun drone squads, they start as units after all. Sniper drones are all but useless atm so sticking one into a gundrone squad seems logical to me, as long as they become assault weapons.

And then to the "special " child, the pathfinder. Jack of all trades master of none if you ever needed a dictionary example. Hampered by their necessity for a transport, thin of skin, unsure of purpose. Bearing a schizophrenic weapon (Hi I'm an 18" range assault pinning carbine 48" heavy laser tag gun, go on read my instructions, they're in super happy nipponese written) with a possible add on rail rifles that further dilute the purpose of the squad.I want these guys to be the lynch pin of the Tau. The fluff says they're there first on the battlefield (sneakily deploying unnoticed with a massive great tank transport) lets not add in the can you scout with a tank debacle. They are a unit that I feel I should have in my army, but I never do because they aren't worth the points, that's why I suggested making markerlights assault, y'know jumpin' outta the tank, lighting something up, wash, rinse, repeat. A unit that doesn't actually fire at you (the tank could do that, war fish or ordinary df) but makes everything else hit you harder. Very different and very Tau.

Finally, what's with Aun wheelchairboy, what were GW thinking? This guy could go mano e mano with a dead emperor in an iron lung and still lose. Actually maybe as GW's veterans age this may become a trend.
Warhammer 401k, or Mush Bowl, or Warhammer Fantasy Erection, Gorka Sumfin', Battlefleet Pooped Myself.

What do you expect, I'm on holiday!!!
Love n' peace etc.

[Nabterayl]

And then to the "special " child, the pathfinder. Jack of all trades master of none if you ever needed a dictionary example. Hampered by their necessity for a transport, thin of skin, unsure of purpose. Bearing a schizophrenic weapon (Hi I'm an 18" range assault pinning carbine 48" heavy laser tag gun, go on read my instructions, they're in super happy nipponese written) with a possible add on rail rifles that further dilute the purpose of the squad.I want these guys to be the lynch pin of the Tau. The fluff says they're there first on the battlefield (sneakily deploying unnoticed with a massive great tank transport) lets not add in the can you scout with a tank debacle. They are a unit that I feel I should have in my army, but I never do because they aren't worth the points, that's why I suggested making markerlights assault, y'know jumpin' outta the tank, lighting something up, wash, rinse, repeat. A unit that doesn't actually fire at you (the tank could do that, war fish or ordinary df) but makes everything else hit you harder. Very different and very Tau.
I think that pathfinders, if you could buy them without a Devilfish, really could be the lynchpin of the Tau army even right now. The ability to take away cover saves can be really huge, especially against horde armies - nothing like deploying every single boy in my army in cover, only to have a BS5 no-cover-save no-armor-save wound-on-a-2+ pie plate placed on it :p And don't forget the utility of their Pinning buff, as well - a single rail rifle backed by markerlight support can shut down any non-Fearless unit more or less indefinitely, even space marines. And the nature of markerlights means that they can easily be granted one-way cover saves.

The trick to pathfinders, I feel, is that they're so darn expensive, and in order to really make them work, you need a lot of them, and for points reasons, you can't really do that right now.

As far as how you scout in a Devilfish, we know that the Tau have Devilfish equipped with stealth fields. I imagine a Devilfish that you can't see is actually quite stealthy, as they're probably very quiet, and presumably don't leave much in the way of tracks on the ground. I would be fine with pathfinders getting access to a special Devilfish variant that actually, you know, synergized with the unit in some way.

[Chumbalaya]

So all it takes to be hardcore is to call you out by name? Well then, good sir, I call you out to a duel to the pain!

Duke

The first thing you will lose will be your feet below the ankles. Then your hands at the wrists. Next your nose.

[DarkLink]

Thanks for the clarification on the Ion Cannon, if that's the case then a cheaper basic Hammerhead will be plenty. Maybe 4 shots?


Heck, just include it as the standard Hammerhead weapon, for the current cost, then let it be upgraded to one of a few other weapons (it'd be nice for there to be a few more options).

I'd also like to see a "razorback" style Devilfish. Lower transport capacity, but give it an Ion Cannon.


I think that pathfinders, if you could buy them without a Devilfish, really could be the lynchpin of the Tau army even right now. The ability to take away cover saves can be really huge, especially against horde armies - nothing like deploying every single boy in my army in cover, only to have a BS5 no-cover-save no-armor-save wound-on-a-2+ pie plate placed on it :p And don't forget the utility of their Pinning buff, as well - a single rail rifle backed by markerlight support can shut down any non-Fearless unit more or less indefinitely, even space marines. And the nature of markerlights means that they can easily be granted one-way cover saves.

As far as how you scout in a Devilfish, we know that the Tau have Devilfish equipped with stealth fields. I imagine a Devilfish that you can't see is actually quite stealthy, as they're probably very quiet, and presumably don't leave much in the way of tracks on the ground. I would be fine with pathfinders getting access to a special Devilfish variant that actually, you know, synergized with the unit in some way.

I like the idea of Pathfinders as more of a Devestator style squad that sits in a good position and calls targets with markerlights. No need for a Devilfish.

As a Grey Knight player, I can say it's tough to balance nightfight style rules like the stealth field. Either it's useless (like the Shrouding), or really, really good. I'd just keep the Disruption Pods, though I think they shouldn't be available on every single vehicle, and certainly should cost more than 5pts.

So I'd say keep Disruption Pods at a more appropriate points cost, but only for Devilfish. We can say that the pods mess with Hammerhead's targeting systems or something.

[Nabterayl]

So I'd say keep Disruption Pods at a more appropriate points cost, but only for Devilfish. We can say that the pods mess with Hammerhead's targeting systems or something.

Gotta disagree with that one. One of the things that I think is great about the Hammerhead currently is that it's a better tank, for its cost, than anything except arguably a Fire Prism or a Falcon. That feels very right to me - the Tau should have better tanks than anybody except for arguably the eldar. If you take away the disruption pod from the Hammerhead, then it's no longer as tough as a Leman Russ, which feels wrong to me.

As for the cost of the disruption pod, I dunno ... it hasn't gotten that much better than before (4+ cover save is marginally better than the old glancing hit table, but not by much). I agree it's silly to have a 5 point upgrade so good that everybody takes it, but I'm inclined to say that if it costs more, it should do more (such as a 4+ cover save regardless of range).

[EmperorEternalXIX]

I would really like it if GW did what they have been doing for other codex releases and advancing the fluff a bit, I.E. the Tau are developing new technologies to make themselves more able to fight other armies.

I never understood why EMP grenades didn't, like, turn off power weapons and such. That'd be pretty cool, eh?

[Nabterayl]

I would really like it if GW did what they have been doing for other codex releases and advancing the fluff a bit, I.E. the Tau are developing new technologies to make themselves more able to fight other armies.
They did advance the Tau's technological fluff with the last Tau codex, actually, and with IA3. I look forward to seeing what they come up with whenever they get around to a new one.

[Atrotos]

The Tau are lucky in that they are now a Forgeworld army as opposed to a GW one. What this means is that people should take a close look at IA 3 and start playing with those rules (and those models). Devilfish for Fire Warriors? Check. Mobile markerlights on Crisis suits and Tetras? Check. A buttload of weapon options for the Hammerhead? Check check check.

FW actually cares about updating rules that you paid money for AND regularly releases new awesome models with FREE rules that you can dl online. Then they go one step further and put those rules into a book (see IA Apocalypse) so you can have an official reference.

The Tau have it good IMO.

[Bedroom General]

Forge world eh? Righto I'll sell my house!

[Lerra]

The Forgeworld rules certainly help, but it's not a perfect fix, especially considering that most players and tournaments disallow Forgeworld rules.

[Bedroom General]

Oh...I'm not selling my house then.

[Atrotos]

Forge world eh? Righto I'll sell my house!

Forgeworld is cheaper than GW in some cases, especially if you use Euros. The pound is pretty low right now so if you do sell your house you can get a huge amount of Forgeworld stuff. I wish that were a joke.

@Lerra: Join me in my Crusade to open people's eyes about Forgeworld rules. Start fighting to get them included in your local tournaments and we can put an end to this anti-FW conspiracy.

[Bedroom General]

Me rive in Straya, FW many dorra.

[Shas'O D'Narb]

With the eventual new codex, I hope and assume that the shooty-mobility nature of Tau will not change just to make the army easier to play. I will assume that the Tau will have increased vehicle weapon customization. I will also assume a new weapon or two will be developed for their suits and the experimental weapons will become more widely available. Furthermore, I will assume that the Tau may receive somewhat greater variety in their choice of leaders, and perhaps even an additional ally or two. Finally, I will assume that existing points costs for certain things will be slightly tweaked.

If GW does this, then Tau shalll prosper.

[Sitnam]

I think Kroot should get a biomorph-esque feature that would allow for things like wings, fleet, furious charge, poison weapons, etc. Also allow for Kroot Hunting Rifles to replace Kroot rifles (with a loss of a assault attack), and maybe allow for one shaper in the army to be named Master Shaper or Shaman (Or both.) Also, let Shapers take eviscerators like merc Kroot could.

Also, updated Gue'vesa rules would be pretty cool. Maybe give them a unqie special weapon like Gue'vesa Grenade Launcher in addition to the small number of pulse weapons allowed.

[Shas'O D'Narb]

I think Kroot should get a biomorph-esque feature that would allow for things like wings, fleet, furious charge, poison weapons, etc.
Agreed, that would be very nice... and perfectly fluffy as well. Trained Kroothawks would be neat too.

[Sitnam]

Agreed, that would be very nice... and perfectly fluffy as well. Trained Kroothawks would be neat too.

That would be nice. Although they can always be counted as counts-as Kroot w/ wings biomorph (Vultures in Kroot Mercs dex). Oh, I also forgot to add that I feel Vespid should be cheaper, 18'' assault 1 gun, or both.

If yah can't tell, I'm a big fan of the Tau allies and I really hope they get a bigger role next dex. You can keep them to only 3 army chocies (Gue'vesa, Kroot, and Vespid).

[Herald of Nurgle]

That would be nice. Although they can always be counted as counts-as Kroot w/ wings biomorph (Vultures in Kroot Mercs dex). Oh, I also forgot to add that I feel Vespid should be cheaper, 18'' assault 1 gun, or both.

If yah can't tell, I'm a big fan of the Tau allies and I really hope they get a bigger role next dex. You can keep them to only 3 army chocies (Gue'vesa, Kroot, and Vespid).



FAST ATTACK – Great Knarloc Pack


Knarloc Shaper
Pts 125, WS 4, BS 4, S 6, T 6, W 4, I 4, A 4, Ld 7, Sv 4+


Knarloc Rider
Pts 105, WS 3, BS 3, S 6, T 6. W 3, I 4, A 3, Ld 6, Sv 4+


Unit Type: Monstrous Creatures/Beasts/Cavalry.

Army List Composition: A combination of any five Knarloc types from above

Wargear:
All Knarlocs have a single Poisoned Close Combat Weapon (3+), as well as a pair of Twin Linked Kroot Guns on the back – which may both be fired at the same time. Knarlocs always strike in Initiative order, but cover gives foes +1 Initiative for this purpose.

Special Rules
Stubborn, Fleet, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Scouts, Acute Senses, Furious Charge, Counter Attack, Rage, Berserk Charge
Knarloc Charge: Greater Knarloc riders are feared for the devastating charge they can lead against an opponent. They gain +3 Strength for Furious Charge, and of course gain +2 Attacks for Berserk Charge as well. This does not apply to when Counter Attack is also used – you need some momentum!
Blood Fury: For each casualty that the Great Knarloc deals in the previous turn of combat, they will gain +1 WS OR +1 A in the next turn of combat.
Stupid Creatures: Great Knarloc packs use the following to decide rolls to hit for or against them:
Knarloc’s WS 3 or 4
Knarloc Roll to Hit 5+
Opponent Roll to Hit 3+
Knarloc’s WS 5
Knarloc Roll to Hit 4+
Opponent Roll to Hit 3+
Knarloc’s WS 6
Knarloc Roll to Hit 4+
Opponent Roll to Hit 4+
Knarloc’s WS 7
Knarloc Roll to Hit 3+
Opponent Roll to Hit 4+
Knarloc’s WS 8
Knarloc Roll to Hit 3+
Opponent Roll to Hit 5+
Knarloc’s WS 9 or 10
Knarloc Roll to Hit 2+
Opponent Roll to Hit 5+

[karandras]

GREAT TITLE!!! HILARIOUS!!!

That being said, Tau can still hold their own when played by an experienced general. Similar to Eldar, Necrons, and Sisters they suffer with points cost due to their codex being outdated, but are still a competitive army. I agree that Vespid are completely useless and Kroot need a bump in initiative. No doubt. Also, Etherals would be better as an upgrade character for a squad than an HQ slot. But, overall the codex as a whole can still produce a few different effective builds.

[megatrons2nd]

I have played some Tau and I can say that I absolutely do not want Tau having BS 4. For Emperors sake Marines (the super soldiers of the galaxy) have BS 4. Im almost getting tired of people thinking that their little army should be on the same level! Marines aer the exception, not the rule. stop trying to make everything a different coloured marine!


The problem is even Tau elites are Bs 3. Gaurd Elites get a BS 4. I'm not saying for the whole army, but we "specialize" in shooting to the exception of all else. Why would we not get Bs 4 except on the one HQ? Even if all Tau(not Kroot) got Bs 4 we wouldn't be anywhere near marines in ability.

[Nabterayl]

The problem is even Tau elites are Bs 3. Gaurd Elites get a BS 4. I'm not saying for the whole army, but we "specialize" in shooting to the exception of all else. Why would we not get Bs 4 except on the one HQ? Even if all Tau(not Kroot) got Bs 4 we wouldn't be anywhere near marines in ability.
Maybe what they need, then, is a different way to handle the targeting array. I like the fact that the Tau don't train obsessively, but just invent better gear. That gear just needs to be something that you can reasonably put on the veterans that deserve it.

Remember that the standards of service in 40K are really skewed. Even eldar lose their BS4 once they stop serving as professional soldiers. Imperials get BS4 only if they serve for life (storm troopers, sisters of battle), serve for life and have an extended lifespan (space marines), or have been serving for a long, long time (veterans). Remember that fire caste warriors are only subject to a maximum obligatory term of service of 16 years, whereas the Imperial Guard is basically a lifetime commitment - your odds of mustering out of the Guard are about as good as your odds of mustering out of a Roman legion, so an IG veteran has almost certainly been serving for a lot longer than a shas'vre.

[Bedroom General]

All good grist for the greater mill so far,
Karandras, Its not that you can't get good builds out of the codex, its more that we've got a few of either underperforming or over pointed units that I would like to use (Ethereals, Pathfinders, Vespid, sniper drones, special characters{Davros}) that are rarely seen as they are as useful as a sandpaper condom with an acid lubricant*. I paid for these things (not the condoms, the models) and would like to use them.

*caveat- yes I know Slaaneshi troops would use the things. And Radical inquisitors would probably use them for cavity searches "This'll hurt me as much as it hurt will you" and you just know that Dark Eldar wyches will have a pack or two secreted in the depths of their D+G handbags (and that's just the guys!!):eek:

[Bedroom General]

Sorry everyone but...

Aun'va to Aun'shi "Something something greater good. Something something complete"!:D

[DarkLink]

Even if all Tau(not Kroot) got Bs 4 we wouldn't be anywhere near marines in ability.

Actually, as it stands a FW squad is statistically the same as a Marine squad in shooting against the vast majority of targets. You either hit on 3's and wound on 4's, or hit on 4's and wound on 3's. Firewarriors are already at Marine level shooting. They just don't get special weapons.

As a former Tau player, I don't think they should get a BS boost. They just need better heavy weapons (aside from railguns) and repriced options. The basic weapons (and Railgun) are all fantastic, and with adjusted points and options BS 3 isn't a problem, especially with Markerlights.

To be honest, I kinda think that wanting higher BS on Tau is kinda like wanting higher initiative on Orks. Sure, it would be a huge boost to their ability to do damage, but it kinda feels wrong, almost. At least, high BS on basic guys. HQ's, Vehicles and some of the elite units could and should get BS 4 or 5.

That said, what really matters is the end result of the army on the table. If GW gives them BS 4 and balances the codex well, I wouldn't complain in the least bit.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

The Tau don't need BS4. They need some FLAVOR, if anything. Something to make them unique. BS4 is going to be too good for most of that stuff anyway.

[Zeev]

BS 4 on suits, not necessarily on FWs

Drones as troops and stubborn.

Shas'Vres give LD9 to squads.

TLFlamer suits are awesome...they have never failed to make their points back for me. (Eldar, Genestealers, and guard HATE them)

[DarkLink]

The Tau don't need BS4. They need some FLAVOR, if anything. Something to make them unique. BS4 is going to be too good for most of that stuff anyway.

Yeah, I saw one guy post a homebrew codex where there were like 5 units with BS 5/6. It just happened to catch my eye as I glanced through, and I didn't really bother looking over much more of it. I could understand it if it were a new Eldar Codex, but not Tau.

I've always had the sense that Tau were good because of their devotion to the greater good and their advanced technology, not because they were great shots or physically capable. In fact, their fluff indicates that they have difficulty with depth perception or something like that, along with being physically somewhat frail. They make up for it with tactics and technology.

Think of it as the Imperial Guard, but with good equipment. Instead of tossing everyone a flak vest and lasgun, they instead give them storm bolters and carapace armor and let everyone ride in Valkyries.

[megatrons2nd]

Actually, as it stands a FW squad is statistically the same as a Marine squad in shooting against the vast majority of targets. You either hit on 3's and wound on 4's, or hit on 4's and wound on 3's. Firewarriors are already at Marine level shooting. They just don't get special weapons.


That is only part of the equation though. A marine is more likely to save from the wounds that the Tau inflict. When the marines hit the Tau in Close combat that unit is usually toasted. It comes to approximately 15 Tau to 10 Marines in shooting to deal equal damage, and 30+ Tau to equal 10 Marines in close combat. That is not statistically the same as a Marine.

[Subject Keyword]

The Tau don't need BS4. They need some FLAVOR, if anything. Something to make them unique. BS4 is going to be too good for most of that stuff anyway.
Fully agreed. Making everything BS4 is not the answer, though for some reason people think it is.:confused:


That is only part of the equation though. A marine is more likely to save from the wounds that the Tau inflict. When the marines hit the Tau in Close combat that unit is usually toasted. It comes to approximately 15 Tau to 10 Marines in shooting to deal equal damage, and 30+ Tau to equal 10 Marines in close combat. That is not statistically the same as a Marine.
Um, is the point of this debate that a marine is better than a fire warrior? Because... I mean... Duh. :confused:
They are six points (Two Gaunts ) cheaper and are basically just skinny blue dudes (and dudettes, I hear). Marines have multiple hearts.

[Nabterayl]

I think DarkLink's point was just that BS3 30" S5 AP5 rapid fire is statistically the same as BS4 24" S4 AP5 rapid fire. Except against targets that are T6-T7 and against AV10-11, in which case the fire warrior is more lethal. I don't think he meant to claim anything particular as to whether fire warriors should be better than, equal to, or worse than marines, or to claim that fire warriors could outshoot marines in a duel - just to point out that, as it stands now, fire warriors will kill a given target as fast as marines shooting at that same target.

[megatrons2nd]

Um, is the point of this debate that a marine is better than a fire warrior? Because... I mean... Duh. :confused:
They are six points (Two Gaunts ) cheaper and are basically just skinny blue dudes (and dudettes, I hear). Marines have multiple hearts.

The point is they are pointed at a 2 marines to 3 Tau and they are not equally effective. They were also said to be statistically equivalent, which they are not. If they were 7-8 points each then I wouldn't want even think a higher BS was needed. Besides, I only want the Elites to get a BS 4 like most of the other armies elites.

Were does the 16 years service for Fire Warriors come from? I last read that they are in the Fire Caste for life, and train from early childhood to be warriors and served until they could no longer fight, then became the teachers.

[Subject Keyword]

The point is they are pointed at a 2 marines to 3 Tau and they are not equally effective. They were also said to be statistically equivalent, which they are not. If they were 7-8 points each then I wouldn't want even think a higher BS was needed. Besides, I only want the Elites to get a BS 4 like most of the other armies elites.

Were does the 16 years service for Fire Warriors come from? I last read that they are in the Fire Caste for life, and train from early childhood to be warriors and served until they could no longer fight, then became the teachers.

OK, I get what you're saying here. And you're right.
But this problem extends FAR beyond fire warriors. One SM can outdo two Eldar guardians, or one (more expensive) Necron Warrior, or five Gaunts, or a lot of other point equivalents. I've just taken it as a fact of life that Marines have solid and cheap troops that can outgun and out-assault anything in their point ranges. But Marines, just like everyone else, have weaknesses. While I do like to complain about how unfair GW is, it's more fun to exploit those weaknesses and win against the odds, with nothing but skill (and this blessing of the dice gods, of course).

[Shas'O D'Narb]

Clearly, free grenades are all the Tau need to become competitive again. :p

In seriousness, although I'm new to the hobby and certainly not anything resembling an authority on the matter, my understanding is that Tau can remain competitive with other armies only on a local level. It appears that in large tournaments where truly hardcore lists would be much more common, Tau are being largely swept aside, if not entirely disregarded. Using performance and participation as the measuring sticks to determine whether the Tau are still competitive in more winning-focussed environments, it seems like an awful lot of players conclude that the Tau are not an army one would bring to a GT-type level event and have even the most remote hope to win in 5th edition. If that's true, I can hardly blame competition-interested players for moving on to another army, if only for the time being.

I'm interested to see if there are those who disagree, however.

Oops, I should probably address the OP too...

1. Gundrones as troop choices, with a rail rifle drone (or drones) as a heavy weapon upgrade.

5. More drone variants generally.
I'm not convinced that the GDs should become a Troop. I think their JSJ ability makes then a nice Fast option. However, I do agree that more variety for an independently operating unit would be both appropriate and cool. A 0-1 unit, with options of: gun, shield, marker, sniper, controller (say, for higher morale, bonding knife-like reforming, and purchasable splitting fire sort of things), and maybe an option for flamer. I wouldn't want to see more than one FOC slot devoted to them, though.

That said, I'd also like to see normal drone controllers be able to detach the drones from their unit, limited to perhaps a 12" range. While detached, the drone controller is treated as using a heavy weapon. These dependent drones would be immediately lost if the drone controller died.


2. Rail rifles and marker lights should be assault weapons.
I disagree. To be fair, although they are indeed different, rail rifles and the sniper weapons of other armies serve the same role. Therefore, I think they should remain as they are. Markerlights should remain the same as well because bouncing markerlights would just be too hard to defend. People already seem discreetly annoyed enough that we shoot markerlights at them and they don't get saves.


3. Stingwings should be able to use their weapon as a power weapon in hth as well as firing it as they do, it fits with the close range of the weapon.
I absolutely agree with this general idea, although I think rending might be more appropriate. This is one situation where the DoW PC game would be good inspiration for tabletop rules.


4.Ethereals need to not be useless, who else has a HQ unit that is actually detrimental to their army? especially wheelchair boy and his carers.
Even though I understand they've gotten into combat before, I fall into the group that our politicians shouldn't be fighting on the battlefield at all. A genuine fighting-ethereal special character would be fair but overall, I'd rather see their page in the codex devoted to something else entirely. If they stay, the preferred enemy should become slow and purposeful.


5.Ballistic skill 4 is needed for an army without a valid cc ability, that's a third of the game right there where Tau just cringe and die.

6. Obviously points need to be adjusted to bring tau in line with later 'dexes.
I don't think BS4 is what we need. When it comes to shooting, we already have a ton of options. Twin-linking, target locks, and blacksun filters are what set the Tau shooting apart, and if done selectively, I think can really give Tau quite an edge in that phase of the game, particularly in early turns. However, I think Tau difficulties lie with the delicate balance between firepower, mobility, and survivability which has been upset (read: surpassed) by the introduction of new codexes. I don't even think a moderate points adjustment is necessary. A slight reduction in vehicle chassis costs will do just fine. That said, I actually do think that photon grenades should be free for fire warriors, though.

( P.S. I don't buy into the idea that lots of cover has killed Tau. If we can't deal with our enemies having 4+ saves, then we don't deserve to be taking the same field as them, especially when we always wound on 2+ if we want. )

[Rapture]

Troop selections are not supposed to be cookie cutter equivalents. Just because one marine is equal to 2 fire warriors (or whatever) with regard to cost does not mean that they should be statistically equal.

Races/armies operate as a whole. Dividing up the pieces and saying that they aren't good enough is just dumb.

[DarkLink]

I think DarkLink's point was just that BS3 30" S5 AP5 rapid fire is statistically the same as BS4 24" S4 AP5 rapid fire. Except against targets that are T6-T7 and against AV10-11, in which case the fire warrior is more lethal. I don't think he meant to claim anything particular as to whether fire warriors should be better than, equal to, or worse than marines, or to claim that fire warriors could outshoot marines in a duel - just to point out that, as it stands now, fire warriors will kill a given target as fast as marines shooting at that same target.

Right. They don't really need their shooting ability boosted, because they are pretty good at shooting, thanks to 30" Str5 guns. Sure, maybe they need to drop a point or two each, get more options, have other units repriced etc, but they don't really need BS 4.

[privateer4hire]

Tau are an amazing army if played right, and smartly. I have a friend who can grind pretty much any army (except daemons for whatever reason) to dust with his Tau. They have THE best tank killing gun in the game. They have marker lights...learn to use these. The can have easily obscured transports from ranged attackes greater then 12" away. They have broadsides with rail guns. Learn to use cover! Don't engage the enemy in CC unless its a squishy target.

This. One of our local Tau players fields Mech Tau and stomps 95% of his opponents----including many vets. Another key is to go minimal Troops and tool up the other stuff if you're looking to win. And before someone says Troops are the only scoring unit, remember that wiping the board of your opponent's scoring units means he can't claim objectives either.

[Lerra]

Fire warriors are roughly comparable to bolter marines for firepower - FWs are slightly better, but in the same ballpark.

Bolter marines are pretty bad at shooting, though. The only reason to take a shooty tactical squad is for the heavy weapon - the bolter marines are ablative wounds. Bolters are good for thinning out a unit to make assault more favorable, but you don't count on bolters to wipe out a unit, even with rapid fire range. For Fire Warriors, even if you thin a 10-man squad down to 2 models, the survivors can still wreck you in assault.

Even if you gave FWs the same defenses as a space marine (T4, Ld8-9, 3+ save) they would still be mediocre - and people would treat them like plaguebearers. I don't think it's possible to fix FWs by simply altering the statline. What they really need is some sort of new tool or new trick to make them useful without being broken. A special rule like Hit&Run would help, but they need something offensive, too, imo.

Fire Warriors need to have respectable offensive power, otherwise Tau lacks the volume of shots to handle a lot of armies. Either FWs need access to special/heavy weapons, or they need some kind of offensive trick. Markerlights are supposed to be this "trick", but the mechanics mean that markerlights are best used on more offensive units, like broadsides, fireknife teams, etc. Perhaps the team lead could be given a special networked markerlight that must be used on that FW squad? It'll be interesting to see what GW does with this codex in the future.

[DarkLink]

And before someone says Troops are the only scoring unit, remember that wiping the board of your opponent's scoring units means he can't claim objectives either.

The need for lots of scoring units is one of the great myths of 5th ed, just like the need to minimize kill points. It doesn't matter how many troops you start with, only how many you end with. If you can keep your two troops alive, you're doing ok.

[Lerra]

That depends a lot on the army and the scenario. Having more scoring units than the minimum required gives you additional flexibility and allows you to play more aggressively with your scoring units. A lot of scoring units are meant to be thrown into your opponent's lines with reckless abandon, and you are better off bringing enough of those to the battle that there are some survivors to hold objectives. You could play more defensively with them if needed, but that's counter to the whole point of a lot of armies.

In a lot of tournaments, you need at least 4-5 scoring units at 2000 points to have the possibility of scoring full points. It's not uncommon to see "Primary Objective: Control the most objectives out of 5; Secondary Objective: Control 4 objectives" or "Secondary Objective: Have at least one scoring unit in each table quarter" etc. Sure, you can beat your opponent by denying points, but you still need to score well to advance.

[privateer4hire]

....Markerlights are supposed to be this "trick", but the mechanics mean that markerlights are best used on more offensive units, like broadsides, fireknife teams, etc. Perhaps the team lead could be given a special networked markerlight that must be used on that FW squad? It'll be interesting to see what GW does with this codex in the future.

The local Mech Tau player uses marker lights extensively. He never seems to have a shortage of them for the units he's firing with from FWs to his tanks. A hail of S5 fire from a just dumped out (from a fish) squad of FWs that has greatly improved chances of hitting tears up MEQ (and just about anything else) pretty well. If you make a Termie squad take 20 saves (even with 2+) there's a good chance you just ate them for breakfast.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

That depends a lot on the army and the scenario. Having more scoring units than the minimum required gives you additional flexibility and allows you to play more aggressively with your scoring units. A lot of scoring units are meant to be thrown into your opponent's lines with reckless abandon, and you are better off bringing enough of those to the battle that there are some survivors to hold objectives. You could play more defensively with them if needed, but that's counter to the whole point of a lot of armies.

In a lot of tournaments, you need at least 4-5 scoring units at 2000 points to have the possibility of scoring full points. It's not uncommon to see "Primary Objective: Control the most objectives out of 5; Secondary Objective: Control 4 objectives" or "Secondary Objective: Have at least one scoring unit in each table quarter" etc. Sure, you can beat your opponent by denying points, but you still need to score well to advance. This is because, I believe, tournament scoring is very poorly structured.

Ultimately, I consider it a flaw of the points system in tourneys and not the game. After all, any game where you can dismantle your opponents thrice over and still lose because you didn't paint the rocks on your base (this happened to someone I know) makes no sense whatsoever.

[DarkLink]

That depends a lot on the army and the scenario. Having more scoring units than the minimum required gives you additional flexibility and allows you to play more aggressively with your scoring units. A lot of scoring units are meant to be thrown into your opponent's lines with reckless abandon, and you are better off bringing enough of those to the battle that there are some survivors to hold objectives. You could play more defensively with them if needed, but that's counter to the whole point of a lot of armies.

In a lot of tournaments, you need at least 4-5 scoring units at 2000 points to have the possibility of scoring full points. It's not uncommon to see "Primary Objective: Control the most objectives out of 5; Secondary Objective: Control 4 objectives" or "Secondary Objective: Have at least one scoring unit in each table quarter" etc. Sure, you can beat your opponent by denying points, but you still need to score well to advance.

Yeah, some armies need more troops than others. Some players are better at keeping their troops alive than others. So it doesn't really matter how many you start with. As you said some are meant to be thrown onto the frontline. They probably won't live, so don't count them. You need 1-2 scoring units that have a decent chance of living through the game, depending on the army. Having more is nice, but not vital to winning.


The local Mech Tau player uses marker lights extensively. He never seems to have a shortage of them for the units he's firing with from FWs to his tanks. A hail of S5 fire from a just dumped out (from a fish) squad of FWs that has greatly improved chances of hitting tears up MEQ (and just about anything else) pretty well. If you make a Termie squad take 20 saves (even with 2+) there's a good chance you just ate them for breakfast.

Markerlights are quite the force multiplier, and yet another reason why Tau don't need armywide BS 4. A good Tau list will get plenty of boosts from markerlights. It would be nice for a new codex to have a little more access to markerlights, though.


This is because, I believe, tournament scoring is very poorly structured.

Ultimately, I consider it a flaw of the points system in tourneys and not the game. After all, any game where you can dismantle your opponents thrice over and still lose because you didn't paint the rocks on your base (this happened to someone I know) makes no sense whatsoever.

+1. Heck, +30.

When it comes to scoring tournaments, I prefer to stick to VP's. And soft scores should never matter when you're trying to figure out who is the best player. Note that I said best player. Not good player who also has lost of spare time to paint really detailed stuff. Not good player who has too much money and buys tons of stuff so he has cool conversions. Best player, without regard for their painting talent.

[Renegade]

Yeah, some armies need more troops than others. Some players are better at keeping their troops alive than others. So it doesn't really matter how many you start with. As you said some are meant to be thrown onto the frontline. They probably won't live, so don't count them. You need 1-2 scoring units that have a decent chance of living through the game, depending on the army. Having more is nice, but not vital to winning.



Markerlights are quite the force multiplier, and yet another reason why Tau don't need armywide BS 4. A good Tau list will get plenty of boosts from markerlights. It would be nice for a new codex to have a little more access to markerlights, though.



+1. Heck, +30.

When it comes to scoring tournaments, I prefer to stick to VP's. And soft scores should never matter when you're trying to figure out who is the best player. Note that I said best player. Not good player who also has lost of spare time to paint really detailed stuff. Not good player who has too much money and buys tons of stuff so he has cool conversions. Best player, without regard for their painting talent.

Good point, till the last bit. Painting and conversions are part of the hobby, of which the game is just part, so scoring on these should remain.

[privateer4hire]

...Markerlights are quite the force multiplier, and yet another reason why Tau don't need armywide BS 4. A good Tau list will get plenty of boosts from markerlights. It would be nice for a new codex to have a little more access to markerlights, though....

If Tau got more marker lights then that same guy I've been talking about would kill everything by round 2 instead of 3 or 4 like he does now. He doesn't seem to have a shortage of those or those missiles that don't require line of sight and hit automatically or fields that allow him to sit in plain sight and claim a cover save. His tooled up HQ and battlesuits take out charging dreadnoughts, too.

Granted he takes minimal Troops and maxes out the other slots with powerful stuff but I'm just not seeing their weakness as an army.

[Fizyx]

He doesn't seem to have a shortage of those or those missiles that don't require line of sight and hit automatically

What missiles are these? Seeker missiles hit at BS 5.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Good point, till the last bit. Painting and conversions are part of the hobby, of which the game is just part, so scoring on these should remain. I agree that they should be represented and rewarded; however, hobbies and tournaments are not related.

If I play football as a hobby, and then go to a football tournament, I do not think they will cancel one of my touchdowns because my uniform is ugly.

A tournament is defined as "a trial of skill in some game, in which competitors play a series of contests" by dictionary.com; I do not feel that the look of your army should measure into your abilities as a player. We PLAY the game, the game is what we use to compete with one another...the painting and hobby aspects are nothing more than popularity contests, since there are no objective ways to determine who paints better than anyone else, and it's just a vote of who thought who had the coolest looking stuff.

That being said if you want it that way, go the full nine; almost every model in both of my armies is heavily converted and I have always been complimented on them, things such as my Ironclad Dreadnought, my plasma cannon dread arms, and my basic Grey Hunters put into super dynamic poses. Yet I am not scored on "conversion" at all.

The game is a part of the hobby but the hobby, oddly, is not so much part of the game. I agree that all armies should be WYSIWYG legal and painted fully, but I disagree with other points (such as basing...being able to tell the plasma pistol guy apart from the rest of the squad matters in gameplay; whether there is lava on a base or it's just plain black does not). Much of this is just foolish. We play the game against each other; we paint the models to make the game more immersive and allow the opposing general to have the fair visual cues any normal war would entitle a commander. I do think it should be encouraged; but when we paint, we are not painting to best others, we are painting for our armies to look good and be complete.

/end offtopic...sorry all

[Fizyx]

If I play football as a hobby, and then go to a football tournament, I do not think they will cancel one of my touchdowns because my uniform is ugly.


But if the football tournament advertised that your uniform would be part of the scoring process, you might want to take the time to learn to sew.

I'm not saying tournaments should score your painting, but if you know it will be don't complain about not winning if you don't have a fully painted/based army.

[DarkLink]

Good point, till the last bit. Painting and conversions are part of the hobby, of which the game is just part, so scoring on these should remain.

Tournaments are to find the best player. That has absolutely nothing to do in any way shape or form with any aspect of the hobby except playing the actual game. If you want to find the best painter, go to a Golden Daemon.


I agree that they should be represented and rewarded; however, hobbies and tournaments are not related.

If I play football as a hobby, and then go to a football tournament, I do not think they will cancel one of my touchdowns because my uniform is ugly.

A tournament is defined as "a trial of skill in some game, in which competitors play a series of contests" by dictionary.com; I do not feel that the look of your army should measure into your abilities as a player. We PLAY the game, the game is what we use to compete with one another...the painting and hobby aspects are nothing more than popularity contests, since there are no objective ways to determine who paints better than anyone else, and it's just a vote of who thought who had the coolest looking stuff.

That being said if you want it that way, go the full nine; almost every model in both of my armies is heavily converted and I have always been complimented on them, things such as my Ironclad Dreadnought, my plasma cannon dread arms, and my basic Grey Hunters put into super dynamic poses. Yet I am not scored on "conversion" at all.

The game is a part of the hobby but the hobby, oddly, is not so much part of the game. I agree that all armies should be WYSIWYG legal and painted fully, but I disagree with other points (such as basing...being able to tell the plasma pistol guy apart from the rest of the squad matters in gameplay; whether there is lava on a base or it's just plain black does not). Much of this is just foolish. We play the game against each other; we paint the models to make the game more immersive and allow the opposing general to have the fair visual cues any normal war would entitle a commander. I do think it should be encouraged; but when we paint, we are not painting to best others, we are painting for our armies to look good and be complete.

/end offtopic...sorry all

Pretty much fully agree.


But if the football tournament advertised that your uniform would be part of the scoring process, you might want to take the time to learn to sew.

I'm not saying tournaments should score your painting, but if you know it will be don't complain about not winning if you don't have a fully painted/based army.

The point is, it's stupid to force the players to learn to sew if they don't want to, since sewing has nothing to do with football itself. Though, I don't think many players would want to play naked.

Look, you can encapsulate the hobby as a hole into catagories. Theres modeling, theres gaming, fluff, etc. Painting contest test painting. Tournaments test gaming.

A tournament is not supposed to find the best hobbiest. It's supposed to find the best player. Now, a tournament might also have a painting contest at the same time, allowing you to have a Best Painter, Best Player and a Best Hobbiest award, but when you fudge in soft scores you drop the Best Player award for absolutely no reason.


If Tau got more marker lights then that same guy I've been talking about would kill everything by round 2 instead of 3 or 4 like he does now. He doesn't seem to have a shortage of those or those missiles that don't require line of sight and hit automatically or fields that allow him to sit in plain sight and claim a cover save. His tooled up HQ and battlesuits take out charging dreadnoughts, too.

Granted he takes minimal Troops and maxes out the other slots with powerful stuff but I'm just not seeing their weakness as an army.

How do his battlesuits kill charging Dreadnoughts? Shooting? They're only Str 5 in CC, they can't hurt Dreadnoughts. They can't take grenades of any sort, either. The only battlesuit in the game that might be able to kill a Dread in CC is Farsight, since he might count as a Monstrous Creature in CC. Or he might just have a power weapon. I don't remember. Regardless, I smell something fishy here.

[privateer4hire]

.....How do his battlesuits kill charging Dreadnoughts? Shooting? They're only Str 5 in CC, they can't hurt Dreadnoughts. They can't take grenades of any sort, either. The only battlesuit in the game that might be able to kill a Dread in CC is Farsight, since he might count as a Monstrous Creature in CC. Or he might just have a power weapon. I don't remember. Regardless, I smell something fishy here.

It's his HQ with a suit retinue. The HQ has some sort of power weapon-y bit that cracked a dread that charged it wide open. It's the HQ/build where you can't take any Kroot, IIRC.

On the missiles that hit automatically, I think they're called seeker missiles. No roll to hit was needed and I think he actually pointed that out to me in his codex.

[Shas'O D'Narb]

seeker missiles... no roll to hit was needed
That individual was mistaken. Seekers don't hit automatically.

[Fizyx]

That individual was mistaken. Seekers don't hit automatically.

Exactly. It doesn't need LoS, but it still hits on a BS of 5.

[privateer4hire]

Exactly. It doesn't need LoS, but it still hits on a BS of 5.

Well at least I get a 16.6% chance of not dying then :)

[Renegade]

Tournaments are to find the best player. That has absolutely nothing to do in any way shape or form with any aspect of the hobby except playing the actual game. If you want to find the best painter, go to a Golden Daemon. A tournament is not supposed to find the best hobbiest. It's supposed to find the best player. Now, a tournament might also have a painting contest at the same time, allowing you to have a Best Painter, Best Player and a Best Hobbiest award, but when you fudge in soft scores you drop the Best Player award for absolutely no reason.

How do his battlesuits kill charging Dreadnoughts? Shooting? They're only Str 5 in CC, they can't hurt Dreadnoughts. They can't take grenades of any sort, either. The only battlesuit in the game that might be able to kill a Dread in CC is Farsight, since he might count as a Monstrous Creature in CC. Or he might just have a power weapon. I don't remember. Regardless, I smell something fishy here.

I am inclined to disagree, since when were the tournaments ever about the game only and finding the best player? Having the soft points encourages sportsmanship and player to actively engage in the hobby. Best player or not, if you dont make an effort to bring something done to the best of what you can do, who cares? May as well bring one thats not painted.

The Tau have plenty of resources to bring down a dread, the fact that battlesuits are not really it hardly makes them underpowered.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, that'd be Farsight. I guess he does count as a Monstrous Creature in CC. The only power weapon in the Tau codex.



I am inclined to disagree, since when were the tournaments ever about the game only and finding the best player? Having the soft points encourages sportsmanship and player to actively engage in the hobby. Best player or not, if you dont make an effort to bring something done to the best of what you can do, who cares? May as well bring one thats not painted.

The Tau have plenty of resources to bring down a dread, the fact that battlesuits are not really it hardly makes them underpowered.

If you want to find the best player, you play the game. That's what tournaments should be for. There's no reason to factor in painting scores. Should Golden Daemons require the winner to also do well in a set of games?

The point I'm trying to make is that soft scores are unfair to those who are in the hobby for the game. Painting can be fun, but I don't really care much about it most of the time. I play 40k to play 40k. It's [expletive deleted by Inquisition] to deny me (or another player like me) a tournament win because you include soft score.

This isn't rocket science, and there doesn't have to be any conflict. Our last local tournament didn't have any problems with separating out the scores. We had a painting contest and a tournament. The scores were separate. Someone won Best Painter, and someone won Best General. If we wanted to, we could have also combined those scores to get a Best Hobbiest as well. But removing the Best General category feels like a slap in the face to players like me.

You're creating conflict where there doesn't need to be any. It's like that football example. Don't you think the fans and players would get angry if their team was denied the trophy because they had ugly uniforms, despite the fact that they were the best team and won every single game? However, you could avoid the whole conflict by simply separating the scores. Having a separate Best Uniform and Best Team award would mean the the winning team gets the recognition they deserve, while the best looking team also gets the respect they deserve. Doing it any other way means someone gets the short end of the stick, for absolutely no reason.

[BeakieHelmet]

Okay, first off, I do think Fire Warriors would be great with hit and run. It's fluffy as they hate close combat and try to avoid it at all costs and stuff like the new forgeworld suits can have an entire squad with the retro thrusters that let you escape cc, having an upgrade that gives FWs hit and run would just be perfect.

Second, I just want to say I agree with the points that not all should be bs4 (suits and vehicles only, possibly bs3 with free targetting array like the hammerhead) and that drones splitting off from vehicles or possibly other units shouldn't be kill points.

All of these would make fantastic additions to the army.

Now, I would like to add one thing that I think a lot of you have forgotten: the marker drone. It can be taken by any unit with a drone controller and is bs3 with the free targetting array upgrade. But, well, it's horrifically overpriced. If GW made it only twenty points or maybe the cost of a fire warrior I think we'd see a lot more of them, heck, probably at least one on every unit networked to it. That would be the end of tau players *****ing about markers that's for sure.

The downside to decreasing the cost is how good they are already. Jet packs make the heavy designation on the marker pointless and, again, this is a jsj capable marking unit. I highly doubt this unit will go for less than twenty but they certainly need to be less than thirty for people to consider them.

[Lerra]

Drones become the same unit type as whatever they are attached to. Marker Drones attached to fire warriors become infantry that can't JSJ and can't fire heavy weapons after movement. 20 points for a marker drone on a FW squad seems more than fair - maybe even down to 15 points.

If I was in charge of the next Tau codex, I'd add some "free" markerlights - free meaning that their cost is included in the base cost of the squad. Fire Warriors would come with a Markerlight-equipped Shas'ui (Sergeant) by default. The sergeant can take a drone controller, enabling the squad to have up to 2 drones. Drone options: gun drones at 5 points each, shield drones for 15 points each, marker drones for 15 points each, and rail rifle drones for 20 points each. (Rail rifles are S6 AP3 Heavy 1, for those unfamiliar with the codex). The rail drone adds a heavy weapon option to fire warrior squads.

Fire warriors would stay priced the same as they currently are, but would gain Hit&Run.

[Herald of Nurgle]

I would add a Stealth Drone option as well, yeah.

[DarkLink]

Okay, first off, I do think Fire Warriors would be great with hit and run. It's fluffy as they hate close combat and try to avoid it at all costs and stuff like the new forgeworld suits can have an entire squad with the retro thrusters that let you escape cc, having an upgrade that gives FWs hit and run would just be perfect.

Now, I would like to add one thing that I think a lot of you have forgotten: the marker drone. It can be taken by any unit with a drone controller and is bs3 with the free targetting array upgrade. But, well, it's horrifically overpriced. If GW made it only twenty points or maybe the cost of a fire warrior I think we'd see a lot more of them, heck, probably at least one on every unit networked to it. That would be the end of tau players *****ing about markers that's for sure.


I don't think Tau are physically quick enough or skilled enough to disengage from CC. Suits can do it thanks to their jump packs, but I don't think Fire Warriors should get it. I did hear someone say Stubborn to represent the Greater Good stuff, and kinda liked that idea, though.

For makerlights, its not so much decreasing the current costs as reworking the whole system of buying markerlights, such as what units can take them and all that. Though 20pt marker drones would be nice.



If I was in charge of the next Tau codex, I'd add some "free" markerlights - free meaning that their cost is included in the base cost of the squad. Fire Warriors would come with a Markerlight-equipped Shas'ui (Sergeant) by default. The sergeant can take a drone controller, enabling the squad to have up to 2 drones. Drone options: gun drones at 5 points each, shield drones for 15 points each, marker drones for 15 points each, and rail rifle drones for 20 points each. (Rail rifles are S6 AP3 Heavy 1, for those unfamiliar with the codex). The rail drone adds a heavy weapon option to fire warrior squads.


I agree that gun drones should be able to switch out their weapons to a certain extent. Imagine a Gun Drone Squadron with Flamers deep striking in.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

While I agree the Tau aren't quick enough, I'd love to see them get stubborn and a kind of defensive grenade that stuns the enemy and allows them to escape (of course counting as having Hit and Run, maybe a once per game thing?). I also wouldn't mind seeing them have some kind of cool little wrist-mounted shooting weapons that work in close combat. Maybe they could even have a unique rule where the weapon could be fired in CC.

I'd really like to see them get a lot of cool grenade bonuses. I think defensive grenades or EMP grenades that turn off power weapons would be great (hell I wouldn't mind it being a demo charge style shooting attack either...imagine if FWs had a once per game EMP that could actually shut off power armor and force them to become pinned for example?)

There's a lot of cool stuff out there that I think they could do with them if they went that route. There aren't enough cool grenades in the game.

[BeakieHelmet]

Drones become the same unit type as whatever they are attached to. Marker Drones attached to fire warriors become infantry that can't JSJ and can't fire heavy weapons after movement. 20 points for a marker drone on a FW squad seems more than fair - maybe even down to 15 points.

If I was in charge of the next Tau codex, I'd add some "free" markerlights - free meaning that their cost is included in the base cost of the squad. Fire Warriors would come with a Markerlight-equipped Shas'ui (Sergeant) by default. The sergeant can take a drone controller, enabling the squad to have up to 2 drones. Drone options: gun drones at 5 points each, shield drones for 15 points each, marker drones for 15 points each, and rail rifle drones for 20 points each. (Rail rifles are S6 AP3 Heavy 1, for those unfamiliar with the codex). The rail drone adds a heavy weapon option to fire warrior squads.

Fire warriors would stay priced the same as they currently are, but would gain Hit&Run.

I really like what you have here, and I forgot that they become whatever the unit they are attached to is. I don't think they need a heavy support option, it's not all that fluffy and we gotta remember, these aren't IG or SM. If infantry needs something big taken out they light it up and get something bigger like a suit or a tank to take it out.

IF they were to take heavy drone supports I'd bet we'd see missile pod drones and heavy gun drones rather than rail rifle drones. Maybe some kind of portable railgun team/drone that can carry a 42" ranch hammerhead railgun around. I'd prefer some sort of overhaul to the entire marker system or just cheaper marker drones for infantry though.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

I'd like to see an overhaul to the marker system too, namely I'd like it to be able to be used for more things, so as to make the currently obvious "I will improve my BS to hit on 2s and then use the rest to drain cover saves" strategy a little less no-brainer.

I'd like to see them have some good effects against vehicles, though the tau don't really need that. Also, in the same vain of how their plasma is better than the imperiums, I wouldn't mind seeing the Tau get a melta option that is ALWAYS 2d6 and not just when within half range.

I am not, nor have ever been, a fan of the "drones take the main model's stats" bit. Those Crisis Suits are way too resilient with 2 Shield Drones. They should be tougher to hurt by hitting and such, not by simply having the same amount of wounds as a Daemon Prince.

[DarkLink]

Also, in the same vain of how their plasma is better than the imperiums, I wouldn't mind seeing the Tau get a melta option that is ALWAYS 2d6 and not just when within half range.
.

Only if Eldar get it first:p.

I agree about the Drone thing. The toughness armor save thing doesn't really make much sense.

[MarshalAdamar]

I was thinking that giving path finders either a +1 to their cover save OR giving them the same stealth rule as stealth suits would be good. It would keep units on the far side of the board from shooting up your pathfinders because they know that marker lights can be a lynch pin.

[Nabterayl]

I agree about the Drone thing. The toughness armor save thing doesn't really make much sense.
The armor save thing maybe ... seems to me shield drones should have the same armor whether they're attached to an infantry unit or a Crisis suit. But the same-Toughness rule is kind of necessary, because otherwise a suit with two drones attached would have a majority Toughness of 3. It would be silly if a shield drone made a suit easier to wound.

[DarkLink]

The armor save thing maybe ... seems to me shield drones should have the same armor whether they're attached to an infantry unit or a Crisis suit. But the same-Toughness rule is kind of necessary, because otherwise a suit with two drones attached would have a majority Toughness of 3. It would be silly if a shield drone made a suit easier to wound.

Every other army with mixed units has to deal with this. Though there aren't many examples of mixed units, really. Just don't take more drones than suits, and allocate wounds to the drones first /shrug/.

[megatrons2nd]

Every other army with mixed units has to deal with this. Though there aren't many examples of mixed units, really. Just don't take more drones than suits, and allocate wounds to the drones first /shrug/.

The only other units that do this that I can think of are Ork slaver with the grots to which he is outnumbered 10-1. Imperial Guard, Black Templars, and Eldar all match in the Toughness department. Upgrade characters and most command characters have the same stats as those they lead. 3 Battlesuits should not be hindered by the maximum of 6 shield drone guardians that they can get, especially since those same guardians die if the controller is removed as a casualty.

[DarkLink]

To be honest, I can't really see it as being too much of a problem. Battlesuits are 2 wounds with good armor. Even if they do take enough wounds that you have to start putting them on suits, the suits are probably going to live, while the drones die, eliminating the majority toughness issue.

Actually, the worst unit to suffer from this is Kugath the Plaguefather, or whatever his name is. He spawns Nurglings, but if he spawns more than one he goes from T6-7 or something really, really high to being majority toughness 3.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

The Tomb Spyder gets hit by that awkwardness too, though only if he craps out two scarabs.

Crapping out just one nets you a pretty nice T6 5-wound unit...

I think that Tau shield drones should just add a wound onto a model. After all aren't they supposed to just be diving in front of the guy?

[Lerra]

Kugath's spawned nurglings aren't in his unit. The nurglings are their own unit that deep strikes into play within 12" of Kugath and operate independently from him.

You might be thinking of the necron tomb spyder, though. (Edit: Emperor Eternal covered it).

[DarkLink]

Kugath's spawned nurglings aren't in his unit. The nurglings are their own unit that deep strikes into play within 12" of Kugath and operate independently from him.

You might be thinking of the necron tomb spyder, though. (Edit: Emperor Eternal covered it).

I've just heard Kugath used as an example of this before. I've never actually seen him used (we only have one Daemons player in my group, and I've only played him one-on-one once in the last two years*. Cool guy, though).

*GW had better not overload the Grey Knight codex with anti-Daemon rules when they redo them. The only two possible results of that is 1. we're utterly broken against Daemons, but mediocre against everyone else or 2. we're ok vs Daemons, but horrible against everyone else. Neither scenario is fair to the players. Some Daemon-specific stuff is ok, but if all the mainstream units and rules are Daemon-specific, Grey Knights will remain the worst army in the game, next to Necrons.