My 1500 IG got manhandled by 1500 Dark Angels, Help!

[knighter]

Hey guys, I made a thread recently with a posted army list looking for some tips and tricks! I ended up having insanely good feedback that helped me not only understand more but think differently when it comes to an army list.

I listened to a lot of pointers from the responses I got, a few things I didn't listen to and I was shown very clearly that I was indeed wrong and the responders were indeed correct, very humbling, even though I was already fairly humble since I'm still a nooby :)

We're doing a 3 part scenario type thing, so basically each friday we play 1 scenario, and whoever after all 3 has the most VP's in total they win.

We 6 Objectives, 3 pts each, then slay the warlord, firstblood and linebreaker.

I'll give a more detailed list for my army then a brief one of his :)

Looking for tips on what to change up next game and what I believe I should of done differently!

We allowed fast attack + troops to hold objectives

His army roughly:
A HQ that allowed the 2 terminator squads to be troop's instead of elites
2 squads of normal terminators, with normal guns + close combat weapons (power weapons I believe)
1 squad of dark knight? terminators - with cyclone shields.
1 heavy weapons team
2 Drop pods - With the marines below inside
2 squads of marines with 2 melta pistols (i believe) in each squad (I think one on captain and one on another guy in each unit)
2 sets of 3 bikers

My army:
Lord commisar as my warlord (hellhound as his dedicated transport)
HQ Command Squad (power sword - chimera as dedicated transport)
2x Platoons of:
1 Platoon command squad
40 guardsman - 2 sergeants 2 commisars in each
(So 80 guardsman total since 2 platoons of what i say above ^)
2 Leeman Rus Vanquishers (I believe - the one with vanquisher battle cannons)
1 Basilisk
Armoured sentinel (to hold an objective with a flamer)


First off a brief overview of what happened:
1. He used his drop pods to take out my tanks very early on, got some really nice shots with the melta's, turn 1 he blew up the basilisk. turn 2 he blew up the sentinel.
2. His terminators just ripped through all my guardsman
3. My two battle cannons did nothing all game (literally killed 0 units) Partially bad rolls, but also due to the invulnerable shields of 3+ on the dark knight terminators and the fact that he had no vehicles... so they were a wasted 310 points.
4. My basilisk dieing very early hurt me - this would of been nice for sieging his hiding bikers which came out of cover on the last turn to grab the middle objectives after the terminators cleared the way for him.

This entire game I just felt man handled... I killed the marines in drop pods - but they already killed my valuable tanks so paid themself off easily - however I did get first blood atleast. But i couldn't deal with the terminators or anything. It was a painful loss to a guy who i've beat twice in a row (however that was with smaller armies, we just moved from 800 pts to 1500)

So anyways, looking for some tips that people recommend!

I'm debating trying to run Lord chenkov + conscripts or trying veterans instead of guardsman. I feel like veterans would actually do something vs the terminators, or conscripts atleast would just stir up a riot on objectives and I woulnd't mind them doing very little since they are so cheap.

Thoughts? Feedback?

Thanks! <3

Small Edit!: I also wanted to mention the other models I have for IG and orks that I could use/substitute in are
12 heavy weapons teams
20 more guardsman
5 ratlings (are these even good?)

30 standard ork (boyz?)
ork warboss

[Gleipnir]

if you want to keep your tanks and artillery alive long enough to use them spread your infantry out in such a way that he has nowhere to deep strike near them and keep in mind anything within 6" of the bikes likely wont scatter 80 models spread out it is pretty hard to get any good deep strike locations in your own backfield. if you wanted to deny them.

Never heard of Melta pistols on Dark Angels do you mean Plasma Pistols? either way their threat range is 12"

Ratlings can be useful for Sniper shots that can Rend ie hurt those Terminators and pick out special weapons in squads, otherwise Plasma weapons on guardsmen can do well vs MEQ just deploy them toward the back of each unit.

If you deny him anywhere to Deepstrike in your backfield he will be forced to focus on killing guardsmen with his heavy weapon team that he likely would rather be shooting at your armor just to make a safe landing spot in your backfield, since it sounds like his strategy is all about dropping behind you with half his army and moving a hard to kill target forward to the front. Heavy weapon teams are pricey I wouldn't take more than you need to eliminate his heavy weapons and Stormshield toting Terminators, at a 3+ you will kill one for every 3 model team firing at them on average, consider that they are Fearless so killing every single one is your only option unless you have a unit you can tarpit them with

[Katharon]

If you want a new list to help against that type of thing, then I can give you a few builds.

[Gleipnir]

You are right about the Vanquishers being utter garbage for what you are up against if you can replace them with Battle Cannons or better yet Demolisher Cannons they would be better use. If not your better off using Heavy Weapons teams that will generate more shots for the cost if you have the Lascannon variety even better.

I'd still deploy heavy weapon teams and infantry in such a way as to deny him anywhere within 12" to Deep Strike near your vehicles particularly their rear arc thus reducing the odds of him popping in and taking them out in a turn.

The Orks used as Mercenaries are Fearless and could potentially kill a couple Deathwing Knights and keep them tarpitted for 2-3 turns

you could put 1-2 Veteran Guard grenadier squads to the front of your Gun Lines who would at least be allowed Armor saves vs the Bolter fire and the guardsmen behind them would be able to take advantage of cover from intervening models as opposed to just dying en mass from Bolter rounds.

[knighter]

If you want a new list to help against that type of thing, then I can give you a few builds.
thatd be awesome! id love that :D

We allow eachother to run 40% different points in each match, so 60% of the army must remain the same, so he will probably throw in some new tricks and units but 60% has to be the same/

[knighter]

Thanks for these tips! I like them for sure, but question, i understand his drop pod can land on my units... and they just go to the side, he said it's a special rule with the drop pod? He's not one to cheat at all but he is a nooby like me and we've both miss-read/understood some rules. Is this incorrect and should I let him know?

[DWest]

You cannot intentionally place a Drop Pod such that it overlaps an enemy unit or impassable terrain, however the Inertial Guidance System rule says if the scatter result would put the Drop Pod on top of an enemy or impassable terrain, reduce the scatter by the minimum to avoid overlap. This also doesn't save the pod from scattering off the table; that's still a Mishap.

[Gleipnir]

Yes and no, on the Drop Pod he still has to place it without having it land within 1" of either one of your models (who can take up a lot of real estate spread 2" apart) or impassable terrain plus if it does scatter he cant place it further than the scatter distance he can only reduce the scatter distance to allow for it to land, and when he disembarks he must also be able to do so without being closer than 1" from an enemy model and cannot assault that turn. The goal really is to make sure units packing meltas cant pop out of the pod and shoot your Vehicles the same turn, Melta weapons and flamers being common. Whether it needs to be placed with its doors in their downward open for disembarking and firing weapons as well is debatable. Considering its an open topped transport with its troops needing a way to get out and the weapons located internally I would say the deep strike foot print is with doors down, otherwise how is he using it to shoot at you and disembark troops?

Additionally for the Terminators using Deathwing Assault they have to land more than 1" from your models and without landing on impassable terrain, and a squad of 5 takes up a footprint of about 3" essentially your using your massive amount of models to excersie board control and if he isn't packing enough heavy weapons or blast weapons to clear some of your models out for a landing spot you can manipulate where he comes in.

[nathaneal246]

Your Lord Commissar has a Hellhound as a dedicated transport! What allows this?

[This Dave]

If your opponent doesn't have any vehicles then Vanquishers aren't very good as their main cannon can at best kill one thing a turn. Taking Demolishers may be better as they can wound or kill whole groups at a time as well as it can kill vehicles dead. Terminators especially fear AP2 Large Blasts like that as it turns them into Guardsmen with 5+ saves. See how they like it! If you didn't glue the Vanquisher barrels into the turrets just taking them out is a decent conversion.

If you take more Heavy Weapon Squads then you'll want to take a Company Command Squad as well. The Captain's orders that make them essentially Twin Linked or make their targets reroll cover saves in erases their value dramatically.

Like the others said spread your troops out to deny his Drop Pods places to land near your tanks so his Meltas are wasted shooting cheap Guardsmen rather than expensive tanks. Also concentrate fire and kill a unit dead rather than plinking at several units. As Guard troops have generally weak weapons and iffy accuracy you'll need volume of fire to kill elite units like Terminators.

Also, I'm not sure you can take a Hellhound as a transport.

[GravesDisease]

How did his terminators munch through 80 guardsmen? They should have gone down to weight of fire because you have a lot of lasgun shots and all he would need to do is roll 15 1s.

[knighter]

Ya i dunno i must of miss-read that about the hellhounds.

[GrauGeist]

Wow, totally inefficient build. In general, Guard need to be loaded for bear. Guard build around:

Company Command w/ 4 Plasma or 4 Meltas in Chimera

Veterans w/ 3 Plasma or 3 Meltas in Chimera

Platoon Command w/ 4 Plasma or 4 Meltas in Chimera
2 IG squads 2/ Plasma & ML or Lascannon
IG heavy squad w/ 3 MLs or Lascannon

Melta-hound (S8 AP1 blast)

2 or 3 Leman Russ Demolishers (S10 AP2) w/o sponsons

Leman Russ (S8 AP3) w/o sponsons

Medusa w/ siege shells (S10 AP2)


Just max out on AP1 AP2 and AP3, and you should never have a problem against any MEQ.

More stuff, cheap stuff = IG victory!

[Katharon]

As promised, here are some lists that you can use at your own discretion.

Balanced List

---
HQ
---

Company Command Squad [150]
- Missile Launcher
- Master of Ordnance
- Chimera Transport

------
TROOPS
------

1st Platoon [540]
Platoon Command Squad
5 x Infantry Squads w/ 5 x Flamers, 4 x Krak Grenades 1 x Commissar
2 x Heavy Weapon Squads w/ Autocannons

1st Veteran Squad [145]
- 3 x Plasma Guns
- Forward Sentries Doctrine

2nd Veteran Squad [135]
- 3 x Melta Guns
- Chimera Transport

-----------
FAST ATTACK
-----------

1 x Vendetta Gunship [130]

1 x Vendetta Gunship [130]

-------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
-------------

Leman Russ Squadron [255]
- 1 x LR Executioner
- Knight Commander Pask
- Hull lascannon


TOTAL POINTS: 1,500



Infantry List


---
HQ
---

Company Command Squad [225]
- 4 x Plasma Guns
- Camo Cloaks
- Castellan Creed

------
ELITES
------

1st Ratling Squad [60]
- 6 x in squad

2nd Ratling Squad [70]
- 7 x in squad

3rd Ratling Squad [70]
- 7 x in squad

------
TROOPS
------

1st Platoon [435]
Platoon Command Squad
4 x Infantry Squads w/ 4 x Flamers, 1 x Commissar
2 x Heavy Weapon Squads w/ Autocannons

2nd Platoon [435]
Platoon Command Squad
4 x Infantry Squads w/ 4 x Flamers, 1 x Commissar
2 x Heavy Weapon Squads w/ Autocannons

-------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
-------------

Leman Russ Squadron [205]
- 1 x Vanquisher
- Knight Commander Pask

--------------
FORTIFICATIONS
--------------

Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad Gun [100]


TOTAL POINTS: 1,500


Mechanized List

---
HQ
---

Company Command Squad [105]
- Chimera Transport

------
TROOPS
------

6 x Veteran Squads [930]
Chimera Transport for each squad
3 x Melta Guns for each squad

-------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
-------------

1st Leman Russ Squadron [150]
- 1 x Leman Russ Battle Tank

2nd Leman Russ Squadron [150]
- 1 x Leman Russ Exterminator

3rd Leman Russ Squadron [165]
- 1 x Leman Russ Demolisher

TOTAL POINTS: 1,500

[knighter]

question, why do you put your heavy weapons in your platoons instead of out by themself? I understand it'd keep them safer from fire but then your infantry cant move and shoot (well they can but the heavy weapons become almost deadweight, no?)

[This Dave]

question, why do you put your heavy weapons in your platoons instead of out by themself? I understand it'd keep them safer from fire but then your infantry cant move and shoot (well they can but the heavy weapons become almost deadweight, no?)

I think he meant the Autocannons are Heavy Weapons Squads, not actually in the squads in the platoon. You can put them in the squads if the unit is going to camp on an objective or defend an area. They give the platoon more punch than just Lasguns.

[Gleipnir]

Heavy Weapons can move and shoot Snap Shots if they aren't Blast or Template, which means Heavy Bolters/Autocannons/Lascannons/Krak Missile Launchers do just fine included in a Infantry Squad that you would like to remain mobile while burying the weapon to the back of the squad as you suggested to protect it.

Though I think the list he is suggesting has them as separate 3 weapon teams under the command of a Platoon Commander and probably deployed near a Company Commander to take advantage of the orders he can issue.

[Katharon]

First things first, a lesson I have learned, is never to put heavy weapons into Infantry Squads. Infantry squads are there to be doing lasgun firing and being meatshields. Heavy weapon sqauds, separated from infantry squads, are able to both claim objectives and hang further back from any close combat whilst simultaneously giving long range fire support.

In that first list, the Company Command Squad ML is inside the squad. However in the troop section, the Heavy Weapon Squads are part of the Platoon but are not inside any command squad or infantry squad -- they are separate. This allows them to further benefit from Orders given by your Company and Platoon officers, not distracting an entire Infantry Squad just to let a longer ranged weapon to get twin-linked, etc.

[Gleipnir]

Never say never, there are advantages to incorporating Heavy Weapons into basic Infantry Squads, among them allowing 5 teams on one larger combined 50 man infantry squad allowing for a single order to benefit all 5 heavy weapons and the lasguns you mention acting as meatshields and additionally ablative wounds for the heavy weps, putting Lascannons, autocannons or krak missiles into them is a bit counterproductive I find since you often would prefer those shots be heading towards opposing vehicles or hard targets for their point cost. That said in anything but Apocalypse or Planetstrike games I prefer to do as you mentioned keeping my infantry for lasgun infantry w/ odd specials and my heavy weapons separate to be dedicated to separate targets, both for the points cost and convenience it just makes more sense.

[Calibos]

Just a note about the DA terminators: based on the description of turning Terminators into troop choices, the HQ might was probably Belial. Any unit of Terminators he joins (or any Inner Circle units) does not scatter when Deep Striking, so if you have any pockets where he can drop in, he will. Then, if the second Terminator squad to round 2 (which he can, without rolling for reserves thanks to Deathwing Assault) that Terminator squad can use Belial's teleport homer to Deep Strike within 6" of him without scattering. So the suggestion about spreading your troops around can be good, but again... if you leave any wiggle room, Terminators with Belial will find a spot in your line and proceed to buzzsaw through your troops.