1500 pt. IG/Space Marine Allies. Feedback & Criticism Requested!

[Ne Obliviscaris]

I'm building my very first list to actually play! I've painted quite a bit and have read all of the rulebooks. I'd like this to be semi-competitive while remaining thematic.

The theme is Traitor Guard and Alpha Legion allies, using the IG and Space Marine codex.

This is my first working list that I'll be using to play my first games, so please offer suggestions as need be. These are all models I can build and have access to. If you have suggestions, please feel free to contribute.

Traitor Guard

Company Command Squad
- 2x flamers
- Astropath

Platoon Command Squad
- 4x flamers

3x Infantry Squads (all outfitted the same)
- flamer
- autocannon heavy weapons team

Heavy Weapons Squad
- 3x lascannons

Veteran Squad
- 3x plasma guns
- Grenadiers (carapace armour)
- Chimera transport w/dozer blade

Veteran Squad
- 3x meltaguns
- Chimera transport w/dozer blade

Vendetta Gunship

Vendetta Gunship


Space Marine Allies

Librarian
- Mastery Level 2

Space Marine Tactical Squad (5x)
- Missile Launcher

Sternguard Squad
- 5x combi-flamers
- Razorback w/twin-linked assault cannons, dozer blades, storm bolter

Army Total Points: 1,500

So my tactics are probably pretty standard. The large 35-man infantry platoon will objective camp the home objective (the store where I'll be playing is very terrain heavy, so a good majority of the platoon should be fairly covered with ruins and the like.

The heavy weapon lascannon squads will be deployed elsewhere to pop armour.

The Veteran Squad and Command Squad will trundle around popping armour and 2+/3+, and perhaps capture midfield objectives as needed.

The Vendettas will keep AA busy (hopefully), and do the bulk of the armour-popping (hopefully). They'll be deployed individually.

The Space Marines will be deployed using the Raven Guard chapter tactics, allowing me to reserve them and outflanking. I've kept them strictly anti-infantry with lots of flamer killiness, because I feel like I have anti-armour fairly well covered, but my infantry woefully lacking. Hopefully if I can outflank them in the Razorback with the libby, hopefully I can get these guys near the back objective and do some damage. I've given the Razoback twin-linked assault cannons to maintain the theme. Also, the Outflanking and Scout tactics of the Raven Guard keep the theme of my Alpha Legion idea. The libby will probably be using Telepathy discipline. The tactical squad was sort of a throwaway... I stuck a missile launcher to perhaps help with some fire support. I'm staying away from scouts because they don't really seem to fit with the theme.

There you have it! Critique away and thanks in advance!

[Katharon]

First off, I'll just say that people are going to be a little confused when they see CSM being used to play regular SM codex. So, be careful about that. A lot of stores and gamers I play in and with take the idea of WYSIWYG to the extent that if a model is painted and modeled to look like something (ie: a Chaos Space Marine) then that is what it is -- no counts as. Just be aware of that fact. I think it's OK, but some players are a bit more touchy.


Starting at the list:

1) Company Command Squad -- drop the melta guns. Your commander exists to give orders and keep his head down. If you want to give his squad something to do, then put a lascannon, autocannon, or missile launcher in the group -- but a short range weapon like the melta gun (while good) is just going to tempt you into getting him too close.

2) Platoon command squads are cool for taking some special weapons and you chose the right ones. Flamers on regular troopers are the ideal special weapon for them.

3) I'd remove the autocannons from your Infantry Squads. Just make a 2nd Heavy Weapon Squad with autocannons instead. That way your infantry squads can do their thing (meat shields/bury someone under corpses in CC) and your heavy weapons can stay back and do what they do best.

4) Two Vendettas is going to make people hate you, but hey, if it's competitive play then I'd certainly go for it. However, I'd drop the extra bolters. Vendettas don't need them. Better use of those points would be to give krak grenades to your Infantry Squads or helping to buy that 2nd Heavy Weapon Squad.

5) Sternguard Unit: Drop the flamers and just give them all combi-flamers, that way you get more use out of their special ammunition. Same goes for the Sgt. Drop those lightning claws. If it were a Vanguard squad, I'd be saying differently, but they're sternguard and should act like it (ie: more dakka, less hakka).


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Answers:

I don't believe in dumb questions unless they are completely and absolutely absurd -- yours is not. To answer it, no you do not have to combine your lascannon HWS. Only Infantry Squads are allowed to combine together -- the other component parts of the Infantry Platoon (command squad, hws, SWTs, etc) do not.

Part of me says that you should just make this army Raven Guard (as in paint scheme) since you're using their tactics, but meh. It's not my army. Hope some of this helped you.

[Ne Obliviscaris]

Thank you for the quick reply!

I suppose I should definitely clarify that the models being used will be standard marines, using the appropriate tactical squad box and converted FW heresy armour marks for the Sternguard and librarian. They'll just be painted blue and green and have the hydra transfers on. The idea I guess in my head is the Alpha Legion showed up and mucked around a bit and now the IG are all backwards thinking and rogue. Like, they're disguised as regular old Astartes, there to subvert and twist the Imperial Truth. That way, I can have a standard marine army with a twist? If that makes sense. In all respects they'll be standard marines. I can't justify running the Chaos Space Marine codex when I have standard vanilla marine models. And Alpha Legion actually work a lot better fluff-wise as Raven Guard. As dumb as that sounds. Outflanking trumps the Huron or a random Infiltrate roll on the Warlord table. :(

I'll definitely make the changes to the combi-flamers. I have four of them lying around, so it's an easy change.

The suggestion to remove autocannons and make them a separate squad hadn't occurred to me. I was thinking about Overwatch, but I suppose anything that lives through seven overwatching flamers probably isn't going to be phased by one or two extra hits. Good call!

If I drop the heavy bolters from the Vendettas, I can use the extra 20 points to purchase the combi-flamers. For some reason they're 5 points more than a basic flamer. That leaves 10 points left...

I'm not decided about the suggestion for the Command Squad. On the table, I can definitely see where it makes sense. Thematically, I've rigged it so the commander is a bit of a zealot and a "lead from the front" type. Perhaps go halfway and equip more long range plasma and keep them midfield? I dunno. I really like the idea of a brash young demagogue rolling around with their best bros firing guns too big for them while the Astartes try to keep their head screwed on straight and their minions dying by the bucketful. It's definitely something to think about though.

I'm fully expecting the Vendettas to get nerfed somehow in the new codex, but I'm also fully expecting GW to inexplicably prove me wrong.

[Katharon]

I'm fully expecting the Vendettas to get nerfed somehow in the new codex, but I'm also fully expecting GW to inexplicably prove me wrong.

I think the biggest nerf they will get is that they'll lose their ability to be taken as a squadron and their points will shoot up to at least the price of a Stormraven (or at least 175). Also...they'll probably lose their transport capability too.

As for the rest of your reply, go for it! Do what makes you happy -- and forget the guy who says otherwise.

[Ne Obliviscaris]

I think the biggest nerf they will get is that they'll lose their ability to be taken as a squadron and their points will shoot up to at least the price of a Stormraven (or at least 175). Also...they'll probably lose their transport capability too.

As for the rest of your reply, go for it! Do what makes you happy -- and forget the guy who says otherwise.

No I definitely appreciate the feedback! The autocannon and combi-flamer suggestions are completely top-shelf! I'm actually now considering dropping the second Vendetta and going with a second Veteran Squad with the meltaguns and a Chimera. That way I can have the best of both worlds. I'd have to figure out where to shave points, and the only place I can think is dropping the Armour Indomitus and maybe just going with artificer armour.

Totally glad I made my first post here!

[This Dave]

Katheron has already given you great advice. My bits to throw in:

I actually like your theme. Alpha Legion are sneaky and will often paint/use loyal Marine colors to confuse things or infiltrate places. Maybe your Guard actually thinks their Marine "allies" are loyal? In fact, the Alpha Legion battle cry is "for the Emperor" after all. Most places shouldn't have any problem with you painting them up as AL and using the Raven Guard rules. But if you're at all worried about that maybe paint them as Raven Guard but with little bits of "wrong" like with some models maybe having the aquilas defaced or the AL hydra somewhere on them.

I myself like having heavy weapons in Guard infantry squads. It gives them a bit more hitting power and the mass of bodies helps protect them. Heavy Weapon Squads tend to get murdered on their own as they're dangerous and small. Heavy Bolters work best as they're cheap, don't tempt you to waste the squad's shooting at big things, and even Snap Shots have a decent chance to hit with their rate of fire.

As for your Sternguard definitely stay with Combi Weapons as otherwise you waste their special ammo, unless you go for the Heavy Flamer option. For your Sergeant you will want to have him keep his Bolter/Combi Bolter for the same reason. If you want to stay with the faux Raven Guard theme maybe give him a single Lightning Claw as a melee weapon. He won't get an extra attack anyways as he doesn't have a pistol weapon and the rerolls to wounds is always nice.

[Ne Obliviscaris]

Thanks Dave and Katheron.

The Raven Guard idea isn't like my heart is set on the RG, it's just that when I think about what tactics the Alpha Legion would use when picking out the Chapter Tactics, it was either the RG or the Ultramarines. I mean, I suppose in theory they'd adapt their tactics to make use of whatever fit the purpose, but in terms of sheer fluff, having a Razorback sneaking up from the side and burning down a backfield Aegis Line full of whatever while they're distracted pinging mooks seems more "I am Alpharius" than say... Iron Hands.

As for the rest of the changes, and they're all awesome, I'll make the changes in the original post as soon as I can update the list and type in the changes!

Thanks lads!

[Ne Obliviscaris]

OK, I'm sorry to double post, but I've updated the original list. I actually feel like this does a bit more.

I stripped the meltaguns out of the CCS as per Katheron's suggestion. I'm also transferring the Chimera. I gave them two flamers. I'm thinking that I'll stick them with the lascannon heavy weapons squad, near the backfield, so they can still issue orders to both the HWS and the Infantry platoon. This frees up 20 points.

The librarian has had the Armour of Indomitus removed, he's just a basic Mastery Level 2 bare-bones. I'll likely take him out of the Sternguard squad and have him in the back field casting Telepathy powers. This will be pending play-testing. Too bad he doesn't get Divination! Frees up a whopping 60 points!

I took the lightning claws off of the Sternguard captain, and outfitted the entire squad with combi-flamers (5 in total). I think this freed up 10 points if I remember correctly.

I dropped the heavy bolters off of both Vendettas. 20 points saved.

I've considered both Kath's and Dave's opinions regarding the heavy weapons in the Infantry Squads, and the points are appreciated and valid. In the end, I've decided to keep the heavy weapons in the squads for a variety of reasons. First, I have enough renegade guard conversion bits and Cadian heavy weapons squads to build a total of 9 squads, and will eventually put together variations of all of the weapons available anyways. At the moment, I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of an identity crises with what the blob squad will shoot at, because I have no idea what the meta is at my new local store, and I feel the S7 2 shots per is a little bit more versatile than the S5 3 shots per. It's a bit of a wash, in the long run I probably to need more weight of fire to whittle down squads. I think my vehicle killing is probably enough? Standby. If it turns out I need to swap it's a points wash.

With the extra points saved, I went ahead and purchased another Veteran Squad, only this time I outfitted them with three meltaguns, as was originally assigned to the CCS. This retains the heavy armour popping ability, and also allows me to field 4 scoring units as opposed to 3.

And I still had enough points to add an Astropath to the CCS. Since the Sternguard, Librarian, and empty Vendettas will be starting in reserve, I think the extra insurance in getting the reserve rolls going my way will be invaluable.

Thoughts?

[This Dave]

The new list looks pretty good. The only suggestion I might make would be to switch some of the Sternguard's Combi-Flamers for Combi-Meltas. They're the same points cost but it gives the Sternguard some ability against vehicles or heavy armored infantry or monsters.

You might also swap out the Company Command squads Flamers for either Grenade Launchers or Sniper Rifles. If they're going to stay in the backfield giving orders you might want them to have something with range so they're not wasted standing around.