Thoughts, Codex Tyranids and the big picture?

[Kevlarshark]

I have been thinking about the disappointing 'nid dex and how it might fit into GWs big picture.

Many Tyranid players been upset about missing units and slimmed down feel of the new codex. I have been speculating that its probable that this is entirely deliberate and that GW are going to release several data slates and codex supplements to effectively fill these gaps.

So effectively the strategy is:
1. Release basic Rules for an army/race (eliminating many veterans current lists)
2. Release supplements/ data slates to expand on that faction. (Returning the lists and units eliminated in step 1, but effectively forcing players to 'pay to play' the lists and units they had last edition).

So what do you think? Paranoid/cynical or a probable strategy?

We will certainly be finding out soon when the nid supplements start appearing. If they contain Doom, drop pods, the parasite or yemgryl stealers, there could be a big "I told you so" coming.

[daboarder]

As a chaos and Nid player I can honestly tell you I will believe it the day I see it. The same speculation was trotted out last time GW treated a codex this badly, and the time before that, and the time before that. Ultimately it never eventuates too anything.

[Kevlarshark]

Well the inclusion of Forge World units and rules recently has patched up chaos... I can take dred claws, decent landraiders, and transport flyers.
If the codex was written with gaps for these units it would only lend weight to my theory?

[daboarder]

not really it hasnt

We don't get access to any of the raider variants
Dredclaws are about as useful as the trygon tunnel and aren't even available anymore and so are likely to never see rules again
about the only 2 units from FW that are at least comparable to the loyalist variants are the contemptor and the fire raptor, everything else loses PotMS for a negligible points drop.

your entitled to your theory but 15 years of this game have taught me its far more likely GW either is dileberately designing particular codexes this way to maintain flux in the sales or has just no clue about game balance. Its not the first time models and units disappear, it really happens all the time.

[Kevlarshark]

I did say 'patched', perhaps CSM are a bit off topic.

It does seem like ymgarl stealers are going to re-appear in the Vanguard add on.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/Call-the-exterminators.html

Scroll down till you find 'imminent tyranid threat'.

[YorkNecromancer]

My thoughts, based on a cursory reading:

I get that huge beasts need to be T6, so they aren't immune to lasgun fire. I don't think the 3+ save is enough to keep them safe. I would have given all monster on an oval base (Trygon et al.) a base 2+ save.

Hive Tyrants deserved the option for a 2+ save.

All special named wargear is overcosted. The Obliterax sword is an absolute joke. 45 pts for Shred? Are you high? 45 pts?!

Tyranid Warriors aren't tough enough to be the elite melee unit their high WS and melee options give them. I suppose that's what the Lash Whips are for, but still. I'd have made Warriors T5. I think you could get some fair utility from Warriors as your prime Synapse web - a squad of three hidden behind your swarm of thirty Termagants to provide Synapse, with a Tervigon to spew out new ones, and a Venomthrope to give everyone Shouded.

Genestealers still need assault grenades or an equivelant power - if the Broodlord provided that ability, it might make sense. I would have definitely given them the ability to Assault from Outflanking, because I've played Space Hulk, and these Genestealers are not those Genestealers.

Tyranid Primes are insanely overcosted, as in fact, is everything with Synapse. This seems to be part of the design, and it's a little harsh. Maybe compensated for by the ridiculous cheapness of Termagants.

Haruspex looks great but is of limited utility.

Carnifexes seem pretty good; not as cheap or good as Necron Tomb Spiders (who have a functionally similar statline) but pretty good.

The inability to ally or use regular BRB psychic powers, on top of the unbelievably harsh rules for Synapse is pretty crippling. Synapse should have provided significantly more benefits to compensate for all the losses.

Overall, I don't think the Codex is as bad as the Internet is making out, but that doesn't stop it from being a kick in the plums. Every 6th Codex so far has been a triumph. This lacklustre copy/paste job demeans the Tyranid players who have invested time and money in their army, and just isn't very exciting. Nothing feels new, or like "Yeah, I wanna see how this does on the battlefield!" because we already know, and the answer is "Not as well as other stuff."

On the plus side, it now means whenever I hear a Chaos player whine, I can trump their codex complaints with mine. :)

The inevitable Genestealer Cult dataslate had better be brokenly overpowered or frankly there may be riots. :D

[Arkhan Land]

might want to go dust off your pitchfork...

[Kevlarshark]

If there is a 'cult slate I would be very happy indeed, regardless of whether it is that good or not.

But again, I resent having to pay more money for something that should (and used to be) in the standard codex. With data slates so hot on the heels of the standard dex it just feels like a scam. Here is your army list, but you can't use all of your favourite bits from last edition without getting this add on.

[YorkNecromancer]

Just been re-reading the rules on Pinning, GTG, and assaulting into cover, and I think Genestealers + Broodlord is better than I anticipated.

Broodlord has The Horror, which pins the unit you want to kill from 24" away. Yes, it's got a lot of hoops to jump through, but it's better than nothing. If you can get a Shadow In The Warp creature within 12" of that unit, they have cumulative -5 penalty to Ld.

Pinned units only get snap shots. This means the unit you're targetting isn't liable to do anywhere near as much damage if you get the power to connect. If you apply it every turn, you can effectively suppress that unit until your Genestealers arrive, at which point, yes, they take a round of Overwatch fire, but there is no negative modifier for assaulting into cover because the enemy is Pinned.

Yes, it requires careful set-up, and there's a lot that can go wrong, and the Broodlord is expensive, and the enemy can Deny The Witch, but look at the positives: at fairly high risk to ourselves, and with a mediocre chance of success, we now have Genestealers with something not entirely dissimilar to Assault Grenades!

Man this Codex is a depressing read.

[Gleipnir]

Look at using Harpies and Gargoyle Broods w/ Adrenal Glands

Relatively fast as getting stuck in and with -5 initiative and Blind can see effective use for its points cost and the harpy can drop a pair of large pie plates prior to the charge, one with pinning.

The multi weapon loadout Termagants is a nice improvement as well, can bury your Devuorers further back in the squad and still use adrenal glands to get them in stuck in fast against things like Tau and Guard

[Eldar_Atog]

It's possible... especially after new financial news from this morning.

I also wonder if the codex suffered from being more of a group project instead of having one big designer (Kelley, Ward) leading it. It almost seems like each person just did their own thing with their assigned units. That could explain the stripped down, disjointed feel of the codex.

[Al Shut]

Broodlord has The Horror, which pins the unit you want to kill from 24" away. Yes, it's got a lot of hoops to jump through, but it's better than nothing. If you can get a Shadow In The Warp creature within 12" of that unit, they have cumulative -5 penalty to Ld.


Shadow only affects psykers. Sorry to depress you even more.

[DarkLink]

Plus, then the Pinned unit can just shoot at your Flyrant, so they don't really get much of a penalty for being pinned.

[YorkNecromancer]

Shadow only affects psykers. Sorry to depress you even more.

Yeah, I just read that. :(

At least it means GKs are more vulnerable for once...


Plus, then the Pinned unit can just shoot at your Flyrant, so they don't really get much of a penalty for being pinned.

Ah, they were going to shoot her anyway, pinned or not. At least if they're Pinned, my Genestealers can assault them at normal Initiative.

Assuming I can jump through all the *******ed mother****ing hoops to get the Pin in the first place. :(

Pinning just seems like a useful strategy for board control. As I say, it's a ****ing long shot, but then in this codex, what isn't? :(

[Stone Edwards]

The truth is that people (for some reason) like to think that companies' marketing departments are much more devious than they actually are, just look at all the stupid Coke 2 conspiracy theories. What is more likely is they ran out of time to play test the missing units due to the fast release schedule and didn't want to release them unfinished if you will. Of course chances are they will release a supplement or data sheets later and it will just give people who already dislike GW even more reason to dislike them but nothing can really be done about that.

[Arkhan Land]

Ive mentioned it before but its a long ways off but IA4 drop pods?

[chicop76]

At least nids are better than sisters and dark angels.

[Halollet]

What I'm noticing is a lot of way for the nids to cripple their opponent.

Psychic powers, Broodlords, gargoyles blinding, pinning weapons, SitW, etc

I think a crippling list would actually work with lots of psykers and pinning weapons and SitW in the back field via Flyrant or Tyrgon Prime.

Like if you pin the enemy with a broodlord and then charge in with hormies and then charge the stealers into the same unit.... they're screwed. That's a lot of attacks that Most units in the game will just have to eat before they can do anything.

Toxin Sacs and Rending is also amazing! That reroll means you get twice as many chances to knock out a terminator!

Hit a unit with Paroxyn or whatever its called, on a good roll, they're screwed for shooting you or hitting you in close combat! Hit a centorian (?) squad with that a laugh as their grav-guns miss.



I think a smart Tyranid player can cripple their opponent to the point where they just fold when you hit their lines with your MCs and swarms.

[Rissan4ever]

I think a smart Tyranid player can cripple their opponent to the point where they just fold when you hit their lines with your MCs and swarms.
I think you're right. Everybody seems to be condemning this codex, but it's only been out for a week. A week! We haven't had time to look at the nuances, play with the combos, and see what it can actually do. Just because it doesn't have any obvious Deathstars doesn't mean it sucks. In fact, I'm GLAD it doesn't have any of those. Those kinds of units are boring to use and boring to play against.

[DarkLink]

There aren't many nuances to look at. Thing is, not much actually chanced. A few things got a bit cheaper, and a ton of stuff got nerfed, but most of the codex still pretty much works just like it did last edition. Except a bunch of stuff, particularly Tervigons, got nerfed. WTF? It's really not a question of whether the codex got better or worse, it's a question of what is salvageable from the wreck.


At least nids are better than sisters and dark angels.

Dark Angels aren't bad, they're just outclassed by vanilla Marines.

[chicop76]

There aren't many nuances to look at. Thing is, not much actually chanced. A few things got a bit cheaper, and a ton of stuff got nerfed, but most of the codex still pretty much works just like it did last edition. Except a bunch of stuff, particularly Tervigons, got nerfed. WTF? It's really not a question of whether the codex got better or worse, it's a question of what is salvageable from the wreck.



Dark Angels aren't bad, they're just outclassed by vanilla Marines.

No love for dem sisters ;*(. Why play Dark Angels when marines have cheaper bikes, gravity weapons, and better options to turn bikes into troops.

[daboarder]

there are still builds that only DA's can run, and yes their bikes are more expensive, but not by a crippling amount.

[Rissan4ever]

And, you can play the DA codex simply because you just love the Dark Angels.

[DarkLink]

there are still builds that only DA's can run, and yes their bikes are more expensive, but not by a crippling amount.

Rad grenades and plasma talons are awesome.

[daboarder]

they are indeed.