Wall o'Fexes!

[interrogator_chaplain]

So I got to talking with my friend last night over the new 'Nid 'Dex and I got to thinking that the Carnifex spam is looking like a viable option. While it's apparently not as tough as 4th, I get a feeling that if you put 9 Carnifexes with regeneration in Heavy Support and ran them in a "Shield Wall" style formation backed up by Venomthropes to give them a 5+ cover ("But feels like an Invulnerable") save, then follow it by your little gribblies and synapse beasts then you've got a fairly viable combination going.

My thinking:
CCCCCCCCC
..V....V....V..
TTTT.S.TTTT
TTTT....TTTT
TTTT.S.TTTT
TTTT....TTTT

C = Carnifex
V = Venomthrope
T = Termagaunt
S = Synapse
. = open space

Anyone who wants to shoot at the Venomthropes are going to need to get past a 2+ cover save (+2 for Shrouded and +5 cover for being behind another unit) and everything else is getting a 5+ cover save except maybe the back synapse creature. Everything running forwards could do a hell of a lot of damage even with taking a few casualties in the run up to the enemy lines.

Sure there are a few weakness's to it, you wouldn't want to run into any demolisher cannons in a shady back ally, who would? But you'd still get the cover save. Tau would give you a whole lot of problems ignoring your cover, so that's a problem. The list isn't terribly practical running up to about 1300 points for a full compliment of Carnifexes with regeneration and Venomthropes. So you'll probably need a 2000 point game to get it up and running.

So what say you Hive Mind?

[DarkLink]

Probably shouldn't waste points on Regeneration. People will just focus on one MC at a time until it dies, and you'll be spending like 300pts on an upgrade you might get to use once or twice as a result. Also, put a line of Gargoyles up front, for a 3+ cover on you MCs.

[Broodingman87]

Right now, what can do that better and cheaper is whats called the "super miget" death star, which it a Tyranid prime in with 3 Tyrant Gaurd. So, So for the price of 2 Carnifexes you've got 4 1" tall models that are essesually a mini Tyrant in with 3 mini Fexes, that can take a Trygon tunnel and and are easally hidden.

[interrogator_chaplain]

That's a good idea, but they're a brood, so can they target one individually? They can target one brood individually but you can spread the wounds around, can you not?

[Broodingman87]

That's a good idea, but they're a brood, so can they target one individually? They can target one brood individually but you can spread the wounds around, can you not?

Yes, with Look out sir! you can put the Tyranid Prime up front and get the 5th ed wound allocation bs.

[chicop76]

Only problem is seeker missiles towards the Venomthorpes. If you could block line of sight to the Venomthorpes it would work well. I would say daemons and chaos used to be a problem since they could move models.

Anyway I was thinking hive guard with Venomthorpes doing the same thing .

[Broodingman87]

There's just something about the spam list that doesn't we'll right in this codex, I think this book is base around using 1 unit of each and having tones of answers to any unit.

[Haighus]

There's just something about the spam list that doesn't we'll right in this codex, I think this book is base around using 1 unit of each and having tones of answers to any unit.
Goatboy is gonna struggle to make a list from it then ;)

[DarkLink]

For all the crap idiots on the internet give him, goatboy is a very good player, and he tends to think outside the box. He's got as good of odds as anyone of finding a decent list.

[daboarder]

There's just something about the spam list that doesn't we'll right in this codex, I think this book is base around using 1 unit of each and having tones of answers to any unit.

No if you do not have redundancy in your lists your going to lose and lose hard, pretty much everything in the book is far to fragile to be relied on solo baring the biovores (range) and tyrannofex (still drops to plasma like a *****)

[AdamHarry]

That's a good idea, but they're a brood, so can they target one individually? They can target one brood individually but you can spread the wounds around, can you not?

You might want to double check the wound allocations rules for multi-wound units. You can't spread the wounds around like you are implying.

[Power Klawz]

You might want to double check the wound allocations rules for multi-wound units. You can't spread the wounds around like you are implying.

Well he might be referring to the fact that you can switch the lead 'fex every turn as they advance to spread the wounds around, assuming that the wounded fex from the previous turn didn't get killed outright. In which case he'd be right, definitely a better situation than solo fex's so long as the enemy can't reliable down a whole fex every turn.

Problem being that a lot of armies can reliably down more than one fex per turn, heh.

[GrauGeist]

2,000 pt game?

I'm Guard, and I have the Demolishers, Russes, Hellhounds, Chimeras & Bassie to make this very tough run for you.

Not sure how many others you'd come across, though. If you treat things like my Mech guard as an outlier, you'd probably be OK.

[interrogator_chaplain]

I've been playing a long time and I've yet to run into Mech Guard. Local meta here doesn't have any Guard players at all.

[AdamHarry]

Well he might be referring to the fact that you can switch the lead 'fex every turn as they advance to spread the wounds around, assuming that the wounded fex from the previous turn didn't get killed outright. In which case he'd be right, definitely a better situation than solo fex's so long as the enemy can't reliable down a whole fex every turn.

Problem being that a lot of armies can reliably down more than one fex per turn, heh.

Right - also I was thinking of close combat where if a model starts taking wounds you have to keep assigning them wounds until its dead or the wound pool is empty. Was mixing my assault and shooting rules up :)

[interrogator_chaplain]

Yeah, I was thinking about the shooting as the 'Nid wall advances.

[Broodingman87]

You might want to double check the wound allocations rules for multi-wound units. You can't spread the wounds around like you are implying.

I was looking in my rulebook for would allocation and mult-wound model, can you show me the page number?

[interrogator_chaplain]

Allocating Wounds in close combat is Pg. 25 and in shooting is Pg. 15 in the BRB.

[chicop76]

Always have to spell it out for people.

You put the IC up front to soak up the wounds. Any wound you don't want the IC to take you put on the closest MC. Imagine if the unit have FNP and regeneration. If a carnifexes didn't die, you put him in the back so he can regenerate and put the fresh one up front. You would have to put enough wounds to kill the carnifex and enough to almost kill the IC to down a fed.

[Broodingman87]

Allocating Wounds in close combat is Pg. 25 and in shooting is Pg. 15 in the BRB.

Yeah those were the pages I was looking at, I guess (until shown) that there isn't a rule saying you must allocate wounds to an already wounded model.

[Broodingman87]

Always have to spell it out for people.

You put the IC up front to soak up the wounds. Any wound you don't want the IC to take you put on the closest MC. Imagine if the unit have FNP and regeneration. If a carnifexes didn't die, you put him in the back so he can regenerate and put the fresh one up front. You would have to put enough wounds to kill the carnifex and enough to almost kill the IC to down a fed.

Oh no, we're in agreement with you, we're challenging Adamharry on his claim that there is a rule saying you must remove a wounded model where ever possible like there was in 5th.

[chicop76]

Oh no, we're in agreement with you, we're challenging Adamharry on his claim that there is a rule saying you must remove a wounded model where ever possible like there was in 5th.

Nope. 6th made wound allocation worst since it no longer matter if they are the same or not.

Ogryns are a lot better now, Think Marine super commander and the whole unit with endurance.

[GrauGeist]

Oh no, we're in agreement with you, we're challenging Adamharry on his claim that there is a rule saying you must remove a wounded model where ever possible like there was in 5th.

There should be a rule to maximize the total number of models removed.

But there isn't.

So the game is stupider and slower than it needs to be, due to tactical micro-positioning of various models to ensure that the "right" models are taken casualty first.

[Broodingman87]

There should be a rule to maximize the total number of models removed.

But there isn't.

So the game is stupider and slower than it needs to be, due to tactical micro-positioning of various models to ensure that the "right" models are taken casualty first.

I partially agree with that, the wound pool should empty as soon as there are no more models in range on the weapon fired, technically a bolter and fired all the way across the board. But I'm happy with wounds being taken on models only in LOS (with the exception of blasts) and wounds taken from closest.

[Theik]

Large carnifex broods sound fun in theory, but as soon as your synapse gets blasted away you will have a 50% chance every turn that you won't be able to shoot. On top of that, you have a 50% chance that if they don't get to shoot they will also try to kill their own unit.

[Tyrendian]

hitting themselves really isn´t a worry for ´fexes, since they have an armour save that´s actually worth mentioning... they´ll maybe do a wound to themselves, which you can assign whereever you want, so the risk of actually losing a model to that is minimal

[chicop76]

The IC is synapse. Unless they roll bad it would be hard to kill off the IC.

[Tynskel]

Large carnifex broods sound fun in theory, but as soon as your synapse gets blasted away you will have a 50% chance every turn that you won't be able to shoot. On top of that, you have a 50% chance that if they don't get to shoot they will also try to kill their own unit.

Don't you mean ~25% chance? They have fail a Ld check first, then the 50% comes up...

[interrogator_chaplain]

Are Carnifexes affected by Instinctive Behaviour now?

[AdamHarry]

Oh no, we're in agreement with you, we're challenging Adamharry on his claim that there is a rule saying you must remove a wounded model where ever possible like there was in 5th.

Yeah I was mixing up my assault and shooting. For shooting its closest model (not talking about IC look out sit stuff). In close combat once you start assigning wounds you keep assigning wounds until the model is dead or the wound pool is empty. It's page 25. (Again, not going into IC look out sir stuff)

But yes, rotating your fexes vs shooting is the way to do it.

[chicop76]

Yeah I was mixing up my assault and shooting. For shooting its closest model (not talking about IC look out sit stuff). In close combat once you start assigning wounds you keep assigning wounds until the model is dead or the wound pool is empty. It's page 25. (Again, not going into IC look out sir stuff)

But yes, rotating your fexes vs shooting is the way to do it.


In combat it's all over. Would have to kill them all.

[interrogator_chaplain]

Aye, but my thinking is that the 'Fexes cover the advance in which you get swarmed by the overwhelming numbers of the smaller gribblies. Nothing is better at taking down tough units than a metric crap-ton of dice.

[chicop76]

Aye, but my thinking is that the 'Fexes cover the advance in which you get swarmed by the overwhelming numbers of the smaller gribblies. Nothing is better at taking down tough units than a metric crap-ton of dice.

Yeah try dealing with 180 gaunts in your face.

[interrogator_chaplain]

Exactly. :)

[Theik]

Don't you mean ~25% chance? They have fail a Ld check first, then the 50% comes up...

50% chance they fail their leadership test at Ld7, which prevents them from shooting no matter what. Then there's a 50% that they also turn on each other.


hitting themselves really isn´t a worry for ´fexes, since they have an armour save that´s actually worth mentioning... they´ll maybe do a wound to themselves, which you can assign whereever you want, so the risk of actually losing a model to that is minimal
It's not the hitting eachother part that will screw you over, it's the "After resolving casualties, if any, the unit can do nothing else until the end of its turn."

So not only are you not shooting and possibly getting wounds, you're also dead in the water. You can't move, you can't shoot, you can't assault; you're going to be looking at three pretty models sitting there looking awesome but getting nothing done.

[GrauGeist]

I partially agree with that, the wound pool should empty as soon as there are no more models in range on the weapon fired, technically a bolter and fired all the way across the board. But I'm happy with wounds being taken on models only in LOS (with the exception of blasts) and wounds taken from closest.

Nope, always maximimize casualties, regardless of closest / range / LOS. It's not like there's a force field that stops, or idiots don't poke their heads out from behind the wall.

However, you always let the defender choose which models to pull. Someone will pick up the special gun or whatever. But everyone around him is still dying.

[Power Klawz]

50% chance they fail their leadership test at Ld7, which prevents them from shooting no matter what. Then there's a 50% that they also turn on each other.

Its actually 41.7% chance, not 50%.

So ultimately you have an approximate 20.9% chance for the "bad end" when out of synapse with carnifexes. The other outcomes on the instinctual behavior force them to charge the nearest enemy unit with or without rage right? By the time they're either out of synapse or the synapse is dead (if you're doing it right) they should be in charge range of something. And if the enemy decided to focus down the synapse at the cost of trying to wound the carnifexes they've got an 80% chance of a fresh from the locker room offensive line of carnifexes crashing into them like middle aged housewives backstage at a Dave Matthews concert.

or something.

Either way I think the idea for this list is to stretch the DISTRACTION CARNIFEX concept to an unreasonable extent anyways, and the cool thing about the distraction carnifex is that even if it doesn't wind up distracting anyone... its still a carnifex. (and now a cheaper one at that.)

[chicop76]

I think people are forgetting a Tyranids Prime is woth the Carnifexes and you have two plus look out sirs. Which means IB is not as bad as you are making it out to be.

[D6Damager]

Large carnifex broods sound fun in theory, but as soon as your synapse gets blasted away you will have a 50% chance every turn that you won't be able to shoot. On top of that, you have a 50% chance that if they don't get to shoot they will also try to kill their own unit.

Not only that, but venomthropes are a trap. There's way too much cover ignoring shooting to think that they will live for long and the assault death stars won't care about the cover save either (or the carnifexes).

[DarkLink]

Its actually 41.7% chance, not 50%.

So ultimately you have an approximate 20.9% chance for the "bad end" when out of synapse with carnifexes.

Oh, so it's only a 1 in 5 chance of them killing themselves. That's not bad at all ;).

[Tynskel]

50% chance they fail their leadership test at Ld7, which prevents them from shooting no matter what. Then there's a 50% that they also turn on each other.


It's not the hitting eachother part that will screw you over, it's the "After resolving casualties, if any, the unit can do nothing else until the end of its turn."

So not only are you not shooting and possibly getting wounds, you're also dead in the water. You can't move, you can't shoot, you can't assault; you're going to be looking at three pretty models sitting there looking awesome but getting nothing done.

uh err, oh hum, you guys give guns to fexes?

[Lord Aaron]

what would they call a bunch of fexes? a hoard o fex?

[DWest]

A crush of Carnifexes maybe? along with . . .

. . . a gaggle of Genestealers?
. . . a weirding of Zoanthropes?
. . . a carpet of Termagants?
. . . a court of Hive Tyrants? (or, would enough Hive Tyrants to warrant a collective noun be best described as "too many"?)

[Learn2Eel]

Well, some quick maths shows that you can run 9 Carnifexes, 150 Termagants and a Tyranid Prime with the Norn Crown and Rending Claws at 1850 points on the dot. Better hope your opponent doesn't have snipers and barrage weapons...

[interrogator_chaplain]

Yeah, but then, when do Tyranids ever fare against anything that can lay down the barrage special rule?

[DarkLink]

Well, some quick maths shows that you can run 9 Carnifexes, 150 Termagants and a Tyranid Prime with the Norn Crown and Rending Claws at 1850 points on the dot. Better hope your opponent doesn't have snipers and barrage weapons...

That is fairly nasty, though a lot of armies can focus everything on the unit the Prime is in to take out your only synapse.

[citadel]

Anyone who wants to shoot at the Venomthropes are going to need to get past a 2+ cover save (+2 for Shrouded and +5 cover for being behind another unit)


Wait, so how is that 2+? Adding 2 to the 5+ makes it 3+. Where are you getting 2+?

[Halollet]

So, getting back to the first idea, why not put a brood of barebones termies infront of the fexes to give them a 3+ cover?

And don't MCs block line of sight? So only cover ignoring barrage would be able to hit that venomthrope effectively which isn't too common.

Its defantly a fun list even just to play to see the look on your opponent's face.

Might be worth to give all those fexes heavy venom cannons so you can hit those tanks. How many barrage weapons are out there that can handle 9 str 9 hits?