"Jetseer" Whinging

[Defenestratus]

Disclaimer: I hate the term "Jetseer". Its lame. Its like those stupid names they give celebrity couples on trash entertainment shows. And yes, I realize I'm whining about whinging. Go figure.

Anyways.

Why is everyone complaining about this unit NOW when, I'd argue, its been nerfed in this codex edition due to the stupidity that is random psychic powers.

In the last edition you could take a mounted seer council, one farseer, one autarch with a laser lance and be guaranteed to have fortune, doom, either guide or mind war depending on your tastes, embolden so you pretty much never fail a psychic check, enhance so your dudes are hitting on 3's most of the time, and 4 to 7 destructor templates a turn.

This edition, in order to reliably get fortune (which is what really makes this editions council work) you have to take two farseers at a hefty price tag and then you have to take at least 3 or 4 warlocks to hope you get protect. After you've paid the points for all that you're still not guaranteed to get the powers you want.

I've taken a modest council in the new book a few times and I have to say that compared to the way it USED to work, its a pale shadow.

[bfmusashi]

The only thing lame about Jetseer is the lack of rocketeer style models.

[Chumbalaya]

Seer Councils before had, at best a 4++ rerollable.

Seer Councils now have 2+ cover, 2+ armor and a 2++ from Baron, all re-rollable. With up to 10 Warlocks, the odds of not getting Protect are very low, likewise with 2 Farseers each rolling 3 powers. Add Baron on top of that and the unit is basically immune to firepower and enjoys Hit & Run to get out of bad situations.

[Sly]

1: Hit and Run.
2: Chance for a 2++ rerollable.
3: People don't complain about the expected average of a combination. They don't average in those games where you spent 800 pts on a deathstar unit, and didn't roll Fortune, and one squad of Grav Amp Centurions with Foresight blew most of your 4++ saves off the map in one salvo. They complain about the time that you got every power that you needed and didn't fail the checks at the worst time.

In other words, Seer Council builds are not overpowered, but do have a wide variety of effectiveness based on the powers that they roll. People complain about those times that the Councils end up with a great set of powers, not about the Seer Council's effectiveness averaged over 100 games.

[Gutzmek]

2++ rerolls is why I embrace D weapons. Not happy about it, but some times you gotta do what you gotta do.... in all honesty I don't mind playing anyone with any list but 2++ rerolls can seriously put a little black rain cloud over the table. Just the way I see it I guess....

[DarkLink]

The relatively small chance of not getting Fortune on your two Farseers is more than made up by the vast increase in power granted by the other psychic powers you have access to, and the force multiplication of the Baron. Even without Fortune, the Seer Council is just as durable as the old Seer Council with Fortune.


Edit: Introducing a game-breaker to fix another gamebreaker is a flat out stupid idea. It's just that now instead of having to deal with the Seer Council, now everyone is getting tabled by Str D instead. That. Does. Not. Solve. The. Problem.

[Defenestratus]

So the problem comes from adding stupid Dark Eldar to a seer council. Without the stupidity that allies allows (why DE and Eldar would ever ally and be battle brothers is beyond me - stupid allies) then is the seer council considered cheesey?

[Chumbalaya]

No, adding the Baron in is what really takes them over the top. Without him they only have 2+ armor and cover, which can be negated, and can't get away from a chaff unit tying them down.

[DarkLink]

Though even without him, if you don't have widespread access to ignores cover that is also AP2 (e.g. anyone not-Tau), or don't have a lot of units good for tying them up (and remember, with all those psychic powers that does stuff like drop your armor save by 1, they're actually pretty solid in assault), you're still in trouble. The Baron just makes them good against everyone.

[DWest]

I think the problem with Jetseer is it turns your expectations on their head. Eldar tend to be mobile, tricky, but fragile. When you throw 1500 points of Chaos gunfire at one and everything just bounces off, that's surprising and frustrating. It'd be like getting out-shot by Orks, or having Tau curb-stomp you in melee. You don't hear disproportionate complaints about the 800-point Paladin squad that is effectively immortal, because that's what they do, but there's an expectation that Eldar will die like the scrawny space elves they are when focused.

[DarkLink]

Paladins are also slow, and very vulnerable to high str high ap shooting. Any decent player has a chance of dealing with them, because they ultimately are killable and have exploitable weaknesses. The Seer Council and Screamerstar, however, are both effectively invulnerable, and they can mitigate all their exploitable weaknesses, though you can tie up the screamerstar in assault.

[Sly]

Paladins are also slow, and very vulnerable to high str high ap shooting. Any decent player has a chance of dealing with them, because they ultimately are killable and have exploitable weaknesses. The Seer Council and Screamerstar, however, are both effectively invulnerable, and they can mitigate all their exploitable weaknesses, though you can tie up the screamerstar in assault.

You can beat Seer Council in CC, with units such as Terminators. But most players don't take non-shooty units to tournaments nowadays, which is actually the reason why both Seer Council and Screamerstar do well there... they beat up on the armies that rely on effective shooting to keep opponents away, and most of the other good builds are that kind of army.

[daboarder]

run a tyrant into the unit, extra luls if you've rolled up hte "lowest leadership" command trait