Tyranid tweaks

[confoo22]

So my club has gotten a few games in and the general consensus is that Tyranid's biggest problem is synapse. Synapse creatures are just too fragile and the instinctive behavior table is just too constricting if you don't have any more synapse creatures. In the interest of making a minimal amount of changes we've come up with a couple of rules based around this system and thought I would get some opinions:

First off, all HQ synapse creatures gain the following special rule:

Protection of the Hive Mind - This creature has a 5+ invulnerable save. Additionally, when an enemy unit shoots at a model with this rule any intervening unit within synapse range may elect to be targeted instead. A unit may only be elected once per shooting phase.

Second, we've changed Instinctual Behavior to work like so:

Instinctual Behavior - If a unit with this rule is in synapse range of a model with Protection of the Hive Mind when they are removed as a casualty, that unit must immediately roll on their Instinctual Behavior table. If the last synapse creature is removed as a casualty then all units left on the board must immediately roll on their table.

So basically this adds survivability to HQ synapse creatures and makes IB less of a punishment if you're not in range and more of one if your synapse creatures are actually killed. We really don't want to mess with the rules too much and feel that this system can make Tyranids a little more fun and playable.

All thoughts are appreciated.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

you already messed with the rules enough... guess who also gets killed by str8 or 6-7 if you play other xenos races... ork nobs as well as mega armoured nobs can all be ided by str8 and up even the bikers get ided by str10. and niether of those units have an invulnerable save... you don't hear ork players screaming about those units as being useless. look at deamons they can be insta killed by force weapons as well and removed by high str weapons also. same with guard commanders orgyns space marine characters. hmm let me think almost every army has models that can be removed via instant death.. its in the game for a reason. and a 5+ invulnerable save? what for what technology do they posess? most invulnerable saves are based off of technology not just because you believe you should get one.. you have 3+ wounds on most of your characters for a reason it takes time and effort to remove that many wounds. and lets think your fliers hmm grounding checks if hit with snap shots or if someone pays the points to take a unit with skyfire or interceptors.. all are units that people pay to take to defend against airborne units.. they pay for them. Sorry but no way would i even touch your broken rules.

[Rissan4ever]

Synapse creatures are too fragile? Aren't most synapse creatures (Hive Tyrant, Trygon Prime, etc.) T6 with at least 4 Wounds and a 4+ or better armor save? That doesn't sound very fragile to me.

[confoo22]

Synapse creatures are too fragile? Aren't most synapse creatures (Hive Tyrant, Trygon Prime, etc.) T6 with at least 4 Wounds and a 4+ or better armor save? That doesn't sound very fragile to me.

Maybe "fragile" is the wrong word, but in most of the games we've played (and I admit it's only been about five or so), all synapse creatures are dead by turn three thanks to concentrated fire. We felt like that was the biggest issue since once they were dead it was light out for the rest of the army. Maybe a 5+ invul is too much, but I think the second part of the rule is solid. I also feel it's too much to have them take a leadership test every turn they're not in range.

Oh, and Son of Romulus: A. These are just thoughts, no one is forcing you to play these rules so relax, and B. Since when does every rule need to be based in fluff?

[Rissan4ever]

We felt like that was the biggest issue since once they were dead it was light out for the rest of the army.

I haven't read the codex. What do you mean by "lights out?" Does the rest of the army die if all the synapse creatures are gone?

[Tyrendian]

Synapse creatures are too fragile? Aren't most synapse creatures (Hive Tyrant, Trygon Prime, etc.) T6 with at least 4 Wounds and a 4+ or better armor save? That doesn't sound very fragile to me.

problem is they don´t have any chance at an invuln, which you need these days to have a chance at weathering a determined attack, what with Riptides, Grav Guns, Eldar Bladestorm and so on... or even a 2+ armour save for that matter against sheer wound saturation...
oh and Romulous, yeah well Ork armies don´t just evaporate once their Nobs are killed... so there´s that...

[confoo22]

I haven't read the codex. What do you mean by "lights out?" Does the rest of the army die if all the synapse creatures are gone?

If they're not in range of synapse then they have to make a leadership test and if they fail they have a 50% chance of either falling back, going to ground or punching themselves in the face depending on what IB they have. So if there are no synapse creatures the whole army becomes pretty terrible to play.

[jksigler]

The only thing tyranids need is the return of the hive node! If I Remember correctly 3rd? edition tyranid gaunts could upgrade one gaunt to provide synapse to their unit. This would take some heat off of the main synapse and the node could still be killed out with precision shots. Sounds fair to me.

[Angelofblades]

problem is they don´t have any chance at an invuln, which you need these days to have a chance at weathering a determined attack, what with Riptides, Grav Guns, Eldar Bladestorm and so on... or even a 2+ armour save for that matter against sheer wound saturation...
oh and Romulous, yeah well Ork armies don´t just evaporate once their Nobs are killed... so there´s that...

Maybe your problem is terrain then.

not enough los blocking terrain. Typically, you can't shoot what you can't see, bar SMS and barrage weapons. But even if you play on a table with terrain, if it's not los blocking it doesn't matter. Some high Str fire (IE Autocannons) it's often better to take your armor save, whilst others with higher AP, the pittance of a cover save doesn't make up from the sheer volume of shots being directed.

If I told you, all you had to do was kill 3 models in an army, and they had cover saves, but you had los on the the whole time, you could probably do it with an entire army in one turn. Kill 3 models and you win. But if you had to kill those same 3 models and you could only see them sometimes, it would probably take you several turns to do it, but by that time, the rest of the tyranid army would've made contact.

Point is this. Let us affect change on what we have the power to change. We do not have the power to change the book. We have the power to change the table. What do close combat carnifex broods care about los until the last moment when they charge?

But with adequate los blocking terrain, there exists the possiblity that you could get a carni brood into cc, unmolested by fire. that possibility is higher than on an open table devoid of los blocking terrain.

[Tyrendian]

true, but you also need your synapse to keep up with your advance or it will just evaporate - at which point it becomes kinda hard to stay out of LoS from all credible threats...

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

last time i checked they weren't 4th ed necrons so they don't evaporate off the table... maybe if you didn't stack a cheap gaunt with 8pts of war gear to give him marine stat's then you'd have the number of models to be able to saturate the board. and if your only playing with 3 synapse creatures then who's fault is that? last time i checked my orks drop their ldr rapidly the more of them you kill. Your altering the rules because you do not like how the book plays? i'm paying over 100+ points just to get a space marine captain let alone a chapter master their not eternal so one missile launcher or one powerfist to the face and they die.. oh do you hear me saying how broken it is when they get ID's by boneswords? its a T4 model your not striking at T8 so why should it die oh that's right the model has a special rule... atleast your actually getting shot to bits by weapons that have the str to cause you to die out right. but then again your big monsters don't exactly die to one shots... still you complain. daemon princes can get ID'd you don't hear chaos or deamon players saying the sky is falling and that they need to change their rules to keep their armies viable..

You have a new codex its been out 4 whole days and your already saying the sky has fallen and that the book is unplayable unless you change x and y... how about you learn to mitigate x and y also your flyrants don't have a 2+ because they have a high T then when you ignore most infantry firepower in the game it comes down to heavy weapons to remove them. strange how that actually works out as it's suposed to work out... also seriously terrain if our playing with 3-4 pieces of terrain then that's your fault look at the book and see how it was set up to function with terrain lots of terrain. its a shooty edition how do you mitigate that easily enough you add terrain...

and last time i checked nob bikers don't have an invulnerable save either...

[Angelofblades]

true, but you also need your synapse to keep up with your advance or it will just evaporate - at which point it becomes kinda hard to stay out of LoS from all credible threats...

I don't believe this to be true. Warriors are small enough that with run rolls and fleet re-roll possiblity, they should be able to get to hiding spots.

A flyrant can fly from point to point, if it's a cc flyrant, all the better as well. Add in doiminion, and possible warlord trait and you should have good central coverage. Additional coveage can be provided by DS'ing Trygon Primes or outflanking/ infiltrating broodlords (i think BL's are synapse too..)

But figuring your synapse web and how you go abouts doing that is part of the challenge of the game though.

Having adequate los blocking terrain simply gives a tyranid player adequate opportunity to keep your synapse alive longer and also give them the opportunity to move up the board without having to pay for every inch in wounds.

Obviously it's up to the opponent to ensure they have enough mobility to compensate, create new firing lanes, watch old ones, gain a bead on targets. If your playing a gun line, well don't be surprised if you don't have the mobility to react.

However, this is what the game has come down to since the release of the Tau codex. I'm sure anyone can figure out who will win, when you play against Tau on an open board without any LoS blocking terrain. It may have open, cover save providing terrain, but that's not the same as los blocking. And Tau don't care about your cover saves, in fact open terrain becomes a trap against Tau, as you units ismply get wiped, slowed down by terrain. But if you replace all those open terrain with LoS blocking, the game changes drastically. Imho, it actually becomes a better game. Units are forced to move, manuever and re-deploy. You turn checkers into chess. You start looking to gain vantage points to see over the terrain if possible.

[confoo22]

Son of Romulous, that's a whole lot of run-on sentences.

No one is saying the sky is falling, no one is calling the codex unplayable, no one is sitting in a corner weeping. The fact is that we've played a few games and found that once a certain thing happens (all synapse creatures are gone), the game loses all fun for the person playing Tyranids. You'll also notice I'm not the only one out there saying that.

Maybe we'll figure out a way to work within the rules, but what's wrong with coming up with some homebrew rules to try and make the fun part of the battle (the part where you still have synapse) last longer? All I'm doing is soliciting opinions on that to make our games more fun. So maybe instead of descending into a lengthy diatribe on how horrible it is that someone doesn't consider the army a fun play you can come up with a constructive idea. Either that or maybe just stop throwing shade on people trying to have fun in their basement.

[Tyrendian]

last time i checked they weren't 4th ed necrons so they don't evaporate off the table... maybe if you didn't stack a cheap gaunt with 8pts of war gear to give him marine stat's then you'd have the number of models to be able to saturate the board. and if your only playing with 3 synapse creatures then who's fault is that? last time i checked my orks drop their ldr rapidly the more of them you kill. Your altering the rules because you do not like how the book plays? i'm paying over 100+ points just to get a space marine captain let alone a chapter master their not eternal so one missile launcher or one powerfist to the face and they die.. oh do you hear me saying how broken it is when they get ID's by boneswords? its a T4 model your not striking at T8 so why should it die oh that's right the model has a special rule... atleast your actually getting shot to bits by weapons that have the str to cause you to die out right. but then again your big monsters don't exactly die to one shots... still you complain. daemon princes can get ID'd you don't hear chaos or deamon players saying the sky is falling and that they need to change their rules to keep their armies viable..

You have a new codex its been out 4 whole days and your already saying the sky has fallen and that the book is unplayable unless you change x and y... how about you learn to mitigate x and y also your flyrants don't have a 2+ because they have a high T then when you ignore most infantry firepower in the game it comes down to heavy weapons to remove them. strange how that actually works out as it's suposed to work out... also seriously terrain if our playing with 3-4 pieces of terrain then that's your fault look at the book and see how it was set up to function with terrain lots of terrain. its a shooty edition how do you mitigate that easily enough you add terrain...

and last time i checked nob bikers don't have an invulnerable save either...



none of which really applies to what I am saying - I for one never wanted Nids to get EW back...
any Nid unit out of synapse is basically a writeof for any kind of planning - with their lackluster leadership there´s a good chance they will either die or run away (or both) without any enemy interference whatsoever - which last time I checked doesn´t happen to Orks...
a well kitted out Chapter Master is not much more expensive than a Flyrant, is about eleventy times as hard to kill (one toughness less but better armour, 3++, EW) and hits at least as hard in melee... oh yeah and his army doesn´t rely on him to stay near them and alive.. OK yes you should have more than two or three sources of Synapse, no arguing with that - but then we run into the problem where to get those from... Flyrants only get you so far as they tend to go far ahead of the army, Primes are quite expensive and won´t do all that much besides being synapse, Tervigons force your Termagants to go to the other end of your battle line so can´t really keep all of it in, Warriors are just bait and Trygon Primes are expensive and compete with all the other goodies in HS, in addition to potentially being far far away from your army.. which leaves Zoans... now they are very good, and their narrow profile makes them comparatively easy to hide behind terrain, but they also compete with Venomthropes and Hive Guard, so taking two squads of Zoans is not all that easy, let alone three...
Oh and good luck hiding your Monsters from a squad of Skies of Fury´ing Grav Centurions...
now all these challenges don´t mean Nids are unplayable - not by a long shot! But you kinda make it sound like we had the new super powerful codex and were still complaining... and frankly that does kinda irk me...

but enough arguing - let´s just see it all as a challenge to overcome, and should we in our respective gaming group come to the conclusion we need to house-rule something in there, let´s do it!

[Advent_Child]

One of the ideas we have put out is that a roll on the IB table of 1-3 is instead a 4-5. I do like the node upgrade though. Where can I find the old rule on that?

[Tyrendian]

One of the ideas we have put out is that a roll on the IB table of 1-3 is instead a 4-5. I do like the node upgrade though. Where can I find the old rule on that?

or, shamelessly stealing an idea from the DoWII: Elite Mod, how about Warrior squad leaders for your gants and gaunts? would save you the trouble of digging up ancient rules, kinda fits with the fluff and sounds quite nice now that I think about it... still vulnerable to barrage sniping, so not impossible to crack, but very powerful... maybe make these warriors a bit more expensive to compensate? just a thought..

[Advent_Child]

or, shamelessly stealing an idea from the DoWII: Elite Mod, how about Warrior squad leaders for your gants and gaunts? would save you the trouble of digging up ancient rules, kinda fits with the fluff and sounds quite nice now that I think about it... still vulnerable to barrage sniping, so not impossible to crack, but very powerful... maybe make these warriors a bit more expensive to compensate? just a thought..

Ooh I really like that and it would allow the warrior to use its run +3 so he could actually keep up with the squad. I am gonna pitch that one to my group. Maybe even make Red Terror able to take an upgrade to make him synapse for a squad of raveners?

[Tyrendian]

Ooh I really like that and it would allow the warrior to use its run +3 so he could actually keep up with the squad. I am gonna pitch that one to my group. Maybe even make Red Terror able to take an upgrade to make him synapse for a squad of raveners?

Red Terror was never synapse afaik...
also, to keep it from being ludicrously powerful, the proposed Warrior Leader should only give Synapse to his unit and noone else... plenty good enough that way I think... also, maybe even allow a Shrike for Gargoyles, since the analogy is pretty much perfect there...

[Advent_Child]

Red Terror was never synapse afaik...
also, to keep it from being ludicrously powerful, the proposed Warrior Leader should only give Synapse to his unit and noone else... plenty good enough that way I think... also, maybe even allow a Shrike for Gargoyles, since the analogy is pretty much perfect there...

a shrike upgrade with raveners would work then. Just looking for a way to give something that moves 12" synapse.

[Advent_Child]

Red Terror was never synapse afaik...
also, to keep it from being ludicrously powerful, the proposed Warrior Leader should only give Synapse to his unit and noone else... plenty good enough that way I think... also, maybe even allow a Shrike for Gargoyles, since the analogy is pretty much perfect there...

One other thing. If we put the synapse as just the squad does he have shadow in the warp or not?

[Quaade]

Your sentiment is good, I do however feel that your ideas are unrepresentative of the Great Devourer.
Building a better Tyranid:

Army special rule: Hyperadaptability:
The Hive Mind have entered a new stage in it's development. Having fought and assessed the abilities of multiple races it has developed several tactics and small evolutions that it can activate with a moments notice. The process is far from perfect and the smaller creatures have a tendency to suffer catastrophic synaptic failure as the sheer amount of information is processed. However, this is of little consequence since all biomatter will be recycled.

To represent this, any MC or unit with the with the Synapse special rule may roll a leadership test at the start of the turn. If this test succeed, all tyranids within Synapse range recieves one of the following USR untill the start of their next turn:
- Adamantium Will
- Counter-attack
- Crusader
- Monster Hunter
- Night Vision
- Preferred Enemy
- Tank Hunters

This may stack with multiple Synapse creatures, however if a model is affected by more USR from the above list than it has wounds, then roll a die, if the result is equal to or less than the number of USR it's affected by, it takes one wound with no save of any kind possible, even Feel No Pain.

Pyrovores:
Add Torrent USR to weapon profile

Genestealers:
Add:
Hunter-Killer:
Genestealers are the apex predator of any environment they adapt to and are expert hunters capable of scaling any wall, corridor or forrest with sickening ease.
Genestealers suffer no penalties for moving or charging trough terrain.

Hive Guards:
Add:
Symbiotic Targeting

[jksigler]

I can't find my old codex but it was in 3rd or maybe 4th edition tyranid codex. Hive node 10pt upgrade for gaunts. Channels the hive mind granting the unit synapse, or something to that effect. I remember I used a gaunt with a warrior head to represent the node. It was extremely good/op back then when wound allocation was different but, with precision shots now it would be more balanced.

[Big_jon]

Synapse creatures are too fragile? Aren't most synapse creatures (Hive Tyrant, Trygon Prime, etc.) T6 with at least 4 Wounds and a 4+ or better armor save? That doesn't sound very fragile to me.

Hive tyrants are too fragile, especially if you were to run them with any of the over priced artifacts. They should have gotten another wound and kept their access to a2+ sv. Check out greater Demons, then look at our mighty Hive Tyrant, it's ridiculous.

[Big_jon]

Your sentiment is good, I do however feel that your ideas are unrepresentative of the Great Devourer.
Building a better Tyranid:

Army special rule: Hyperadaptability:
The Hive Mind have entered a new stage in it's development. Having fought and assessed the abilities of multiple races it has developed several tactics and small evolutions that it can activate with a moments notice. The process is far from perfect and the smaller creatures have a tendency to suffer catastrophic synaptic failure as the sheer amount of information is processed. However, this is of little consequence since all biomatter will be recycled.

To represent this, any MC or unit with the with the Synapse special rule may roll a leadership test at the start of the turn. If this test succeed, all tyranids within Synapse range recieves one of the following USR untill the start of their next turn:
- Adamantium Will
- Counter-attack
- Crusader
- Monster Hunter
- Night Vision
- Preferred Enemy
- Tank Hunters

This may stack with multiple Synapse creatures, however if a model is affected by more USR from the above list than it has wounds, then roll a die, if the result is equal to or less than the number of USR it's affected by, it takes one wound with no save of any kind possible, even Feel No Pain.

Pyrovores:
Add Torrent USR to weapon profile

Genestealers:
Add:
Hunter-Killer:
Genestealers are the apex predator of any environment they adapt to and are expert hunters capable of scaling any wall, corridor or forrest with sickening ease.
Genestealers suffer no penalties for moving or charging trough terrain.

Hive Guards:
Add:
Symbiotic Targeting



These are all totally a step in the right direction

[Advent_Child]

Hive tyrants are too fragile, especially if you were to run them with any of the over priced artifacts. They should have gotten another wound and kept their access to a2+ sv. Check out greater Demons, then look at our mighty Hive Tyrant, it's ridiculous.

I was actually looking forward to buying a box of the new plastic Tyrant Guard to run with a 2+ walking Tyrant. Pretty bummed when I saw the codex and found out I couldn't do that anymore.

[mack9112]

I feel like everybody got the codex early except for me , I mean its been out for not even a week right ? its a codex that people want to hate it seems instead of try it out. I rather like the codex....

[Advent_Child]

I feel like everybody got the codex early except for me , I mean its been out for not even a week right ? its a codex that people want to hate it seems instead of try it out. I rather like the codex....

What is it that you like?

[Tyrendian]

Army special rule: Hyperadaptability:
The Hive Mind have entered a new stage in it's development. Having fought and assessed the abilities of multiple races it has developed several tactics and small evolutions that it can activate with a moments notice. The process is far from perfect and the smaller creatures have a tendency to suffer catastrophic synaptic failure as the sheer amount of information is processed. However, this is of little consequence since all biomatter will be recycled.

To represent this, any MC or unit with the with the Synapse special rule may roll a leadership test at the start of the turn. If this test succeed, all tyranids within Synapse range recieves one of the following USR untill the start of their next turn:
- Adamantium Will
- Counter-attack
- Crusader
- Monster Hunter
- Night Vision
- Preferred Enemy
- Tank Hunters

This may stack with multiple Synapse creatures, however if a model is affected by more USR from the above list than it has wounds, then roll a die, if the result is equal to or less than the number of USR it's affected by, it takes one wound with no save of any kind possible, even Feel No Pain.


that is a) extremely powerful and b) incredibly clunky to play... I mean how many counters would you need to represent all those rules? how many "overload" tests do you want to roll with it being "every model"?



Genestealers:
Add:
Hunter-Killer:
Genestealers are the apex predator of any environment they adapt to and are expert hunters capable of scaling any wall, corridor or forrest with sickening ease.
Genestealers suffer no penalties for moving or charging trough terrain.
don´t see how that would really fix stealers to a point where they are viable... but a step in the right direction nonetheless... alternatively, either give them stealth or maybe even a once-per-game charge after running rule?

[Quaade]

It is powerfull and it would require less counters than playing Daemons. It allows for tyranids to adapt, which is what they do in great amounts everywhere in the fluff.

Counters would obviously go onto the models with Synapse and tests would be once pr turn and only if you had more than 1 USR affecting a unit. Say you have a Hive Tyrant giving Preffered Enemy and a unit of Zoans giving out counter-attack, there is an overlap on a unit of gaunts in the middle of them. Since they only have 1 W, they are overloaded. So you pick up a number of dice equal to the number of models in the unit, any die coming up a 1 or 2, removes a gaunt.
Larger organisms have sturdier brains, so they can take in more information without suffering brain damage.

Hunter-Killer would make them a viable choice, one of the common complaints is that they never get there because they are slowed by the terrain they need to use in order to survive, and when they do get there, they are killed before they get a chance to strike since they will be slowed down by terrain.
Like everything else in the tyranid army, they are a part of a larger organism and as such functions very badly alone, which is also evident in the way genestealer cults are formed.

[John Bower]

I feel like everybody got the codex early except for me , I mean its been out for not even a week right ? its a codex that people want to hate it seems instead of try it out. I rather like the codex....

I've said it before I'll say it again, now when I first saw snippets of the dex, I was like 'oh gak, it's crap, I'll forget it and buy something else instead' (I'd already got a local shop to order it in for me with a deck of the powers cards). But, I had arranged at the same time to go to said shop on Sunday and play my Guard (using SA trenches alongside them with 3 LRBT's to coat the board in fire) against the new nids. I said I'd give it a chance, my thought being that I never win, (usually based on crappy dice rolls), but if I do then I'll buy a Valk or somesuch instead. I got there, he got there, and set about building a new Harpy he'd bought to use, I agreed that if he wanted to run 2 even use the base as 1 and the model as the other, he also had a flyrant in there. Now this guy has played nids for a long time apparently, and plays them well, he can beat Eldar, Tau and others as he knows his army inside out. He doesn't use Death Stars; never did (not that there are any this time), but he just knew how to get his army to work in concert using all sorts of units. No spores, no outflanking stealers, just hordes of gribblies and a good few MC's.
He proxied a couple of Venomthropes; that was his strength the entire battle, it gave me headaches.
Those thropes he attached a Prime to, to soak up hits as much as anything. Mutual protection. It worked, by turn 3 he had maybe half his army in my face, by turn 4 he was chewing my face off. I got his flyrant, his Harpy did nothing as it only arrived on Turn 4. His Mawloc screwed the pooch and bounced her head on a tank, allowing me to place her in dangerous terrain. He got bad rolls, I got bad rolls, through turns 1 and 2 I'll admit to forgetting my orders, but to be honest here they wouldn't have helped, he had cover, he used it to fantastic effect. The battle was a straight kill or be killed, no objectives. He got First Blood, and Slay the warlord, by Turn 5 he had more KP's than I could possibly attain and I said we'll finish on T5 then. I had 1 Russ and 1 command squad alive at that point.
My point is it seems broken on first read, but you just have to learn to use it right. Same with a few dexes that have come out. I don't like the Death Star builds we've seen far too much of. I like a good fluffy enjoyable codex. And this for me is it. You must use the army a the way Tyranids do, or it simply won't work. Cover the board in cheap synapse, cover what you can with Venomthropes and use the cover; something I think DE learned to their distaste this edition too but you don't hear them saying it's 'unplayable' and that 'the sky is falling'. I'd like them to go back and do this with all the dexes around, from marines to Tau and Eldar, make them so there are no 'must have' units that can kick *** without help. The whole army should be necessary to be viable, then the game may (just may) be a bit more balanced and fun for everyone regardless of army.