How do we feel about "Crushing Claws" (and other biomorphs)?

[Just_Me]

With the new Tyranid codex have come some fundemental changes to our existing bimorphs and even to the very way that Tyranid weapons function. In the beginning (way back when they new kit first came out) I got myself a Carnifex and outfitted it with Crushing Claws because, well... they look REALLY cool! However, in the last codex they were decidedly "meh" with the twined Scything Talon's 'to hit' re-rolls being far more appealing than a randomized hit increase which cost me my initiative boost so I converted my Carnifex accordingly.

The new codex has changed this dynamic and the Scything Talons no longer give any bonus in and of themselves (beyond a single bonus attack you don't have to pay for). At first glance the Claws didn't seem that much better though, most of what they did was already duplicated by the Monstrous Creature rules and they seemed more suited to non-monstrous creatures. However, on second glance it occurred to me that they are actually not a bad choice; at a very reasonable price replacing a set of Sycthing Talons with them means that you still get an attack bonus and, with the strength bonus bring them up to 10, can essentially opt to make a full number of "Smash" attacks rather than halving the number. You also get Armour Bane when doing so which is better than the Smash penetration re-roll (and would stack if you REALLY wanted to kill something), making the Carnifex absolute DEATH on anything with an armour value in close combat.

Unfortunately only a few other units can take them and, while more expensive, I think where they really shine is on Tyrant Guard. An entire unit of toughness 6 models with ap 2 attacks is a daunting prospect in CC and compliment a Tyrant well. Plus they can always switch to their Rending Claws if they need to swing faster more than they need ap 2.

I've said my piece and I'm curious what others think of this (and other) biomorph? Are there any options in the new codex that really jump out to anyone?

[Tynskel]

On Tyrant Guard I more think of them as the 'hidden powerfist'. They are unwieldly, so Tyrant Guard go to I1. The great thing about guard is that they have Rending Claws already. And, now they have access to Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands. I think those 2 upgrades are fantastic.

Sure, take a Pair of Crushing Claws. Maybe take a pair of Lash/Bonesword. However, Tyrant Guard are really to keep your Tyrant alive, so just pick up the adrenal and toxin.

[Akaiyou]

i don't see how armour bane and smash re-roll pen can stack. You can only reroll any dice 1 time. You don't get rerolls on rerolls...on anything as far as i am aware.

[DWest]

Armorbane isn't a re-roll, it's roll 2d6 and add them together; basically Melta without being called Melta. So you'd roll 2d6 and then re-roll those 2d6 if you didn't like what you got.

[daboarder]

i don't see how armour bane and smash re-roll pen can stack. You can only reroll any dice 1 time. You don't get rerolls on rerolls...on anything as far as i am aware.

not quite, smash allows you to choose to re-roll all the dice when penetrating, therefore you may choose to re-roll one of both the dice when using armourbane.

As to the CC themselves.....well....their kinda just axes really. with a nice bonus, but honestly theres a lot of rules overlap on all of the platforms they come on, there aren't really any units in the book that get all the benefits of the weapons (without the drawback) and for 20 pts that kinda makes em a no go in my opinion. (though if I was going to put em on anything it would probably be Tyrant guard)

[Broodingman87]

Hey guys, I created an account because I like how you guys are not acting like the sky is falling over this new codex.

On the Crushing Claw debate I'd like to add that If you run a flying Tyrant, you can just run a brood of 1 or 2 Tyrant Guard by them self. If you just give him AG and CC, you have a 75 point dude that fleets around harassing tanks with S7 AP2 Armorbane. Heck, send that little 75 mini-Carnifex at the Wave Serpent.

[Anakzar]

Hey guys, I created an account because I like how you guys are not acting like the sky is falling over this new codex.

On the Crushing Claw debate I'd like to add that If you run a flying Tyrant, you can just run a brood of 1 or 2 Tyrant Guard by them self. If you just give him AG and CC, you have a 75 point dude that fleets around harassing tanks with S7 AP2 Armorbane. Heck, send that little 75 mini-Carnifex at the Wave Serpent.

I guess that will work until it gets FAQed... I don't think they intended them to run by themselves.

[Anggul]

I don't think they're worthwhile on Carnifexes. You'll be wanting Adrenal Glands on assault-focussed Carnifexes anyway, so you'll already be S10 on the charge. Charging Carnifexes, bar some really terrible dice rolls, aren't going to leave any vehicle alive, and are going to ID enough T5 things for you not to need it in the next round. If you're really that desparate, Smashing only loses one attack due to the changes to base stats and Tyranid CCWs.

I don't think I'll take them on Tervigons any more either. Again, I'll just smash for the S10 and only lose one attack, the additional attacks were much more useful for Tervigons.

Tyrant Guard can definitely make good use of them though. Increasing to S6 AP2 is great, especially with such high WS. Generally though, they're going to be dead just before you hit combat, unless you take three in which case sure, give that third one Crushing Claws, it should do some tasty damage. It's a real shame they don't have 3 wounds, their models are huge. I would have gladly paid more points for that. It just seems silly having those massive things with less wounds than a Warrior or even Biovore.

Tyrant Guard seem the only ones to make use of them.

[Halollet]

Hey guys, I created an account because I like how you guys are not acting like the sky is falling over this new codex.

On the Crushing Claw debate I'd like to add that If you run a flying Tyrant, you can just run a brood of 1 or 2 Tyrant Guard by them self. If you just give him AG and CC, you have a 75 point dude that fleets around harassing tanks with S7 AP2 Armorbane. Heck, send that little 75 mini-Carnifex at the Wave Serpent.

That's not a bad idea considering you can stick the Tyranid Prime in that unit so they have a synapse babysitter too. If you run that guy.

This might not get FAQed either, my reasoning is that the Tau Body Guards don't have to be with the commander either. Nor Warlocks. Might be the direction that GW is going.

[Broodingman87]

And then since they're all infantry, a Trygon's Subterranean assault delivers this new death Star of super midgets right in your opponent's face. Hidden away behind the closest piece of line of sight blocking terrain because a Trygon doesn't mishap.

EDIT: The you charge with your Tyrant guard you have Swordsman Warriors deepstrike.

[Tynskel]

I don't think they're worthwhile on Carnifexes. You'll be wanting Adrenal Glands on assault-focussed Carnifexes anyway, so you'll already be S10 on the charge. Charging Carnifexes, bar some really terrible dice rolls, aren't going to leave any vehicle alive, and are going to ID enough T5 things for you not to need it in the next round. If you're really that desparate, Smashing only loses one attack due to the changes to base stats and Tyranid CCWs.

I don't think I'll take them on Tervigons any more either. Again, I'll just smash for the S10 and only lose one attack, the additional attacks were much more useful for Tervigons.

Tyrant Guard can definitely make good use of them though. Increasing to S6 AP2 is great, especially with such high WS. Generally though, they're going to be dead just before you hit combat, unless you take three in which case sure, give that third one Crushing Claws, it should do some tasty damage. It's a real shame they don't have 3 wounds, their models are huge. I would have gladly paid more points for that. It just seems silly having those massive things with less wounds than a Warrior or even Biovore.

Tyrant Guard seem the only ones to make use of them.

They are nice on Carnifexes. They become auto kill non-damaged land raiders. That's pretty serious.

[Sly]

They are nice on Carnifexes. They become auto kill non-damaged land raiders. That's pretty serious.

That's hardly an issue. How often do you get to charge a Land Raider with a Carnifex? If the enemy is bringing a LR into charge range, it's because the occupants of the LR are about to charge you. I guess it might happen when they charge another target and you throw the Fex at the LR, but that will be very, very rare.

[Tynskel]

That's hardly an issue. How often do you get to charge a Land Raider with a Carnifex? If the enemy is bringing a LR into charge range, it's because the occupants of the LR are about to charge you. I guess it might happen when they charge another target and you throw the Fex at the LR, but that will be very, very rare.

riiiiiight. Lemmy think about this one... 25 years of playing 40k, and then your comment... hmmmmm...

[Just_Me]

Regardless of how often you get to use your crushing claws on a Landraider (or Monolith, or Leman Russ, or Baneblade, or whatever) the fact that they are there at all makes them too big a threat to ignore. Your opponent HAS to do something about your Carnifex brood or they WILL eat whatever (or whoever) they close with, and a Carnifex is a pretty tough nut to crack. Not unkillable mind you, but they are going to be scary and require a lot of fire to down them. Firepower that isn't going to be directed at the rest of the army...

Also, they look awesome with crushing claws.

[Anggul]

Adrenal Glands would give you the S10 you needed and the Fleet to get there. A Land Raider isn't a concern for Tyranids anyway with all our MCs and the potential for Warp Blast. The existence of Land Raiders doesn't do much to affect my list building, they aren't particularly great vehicles what with all the Melta, Lance and MCs around.

[Tynskel]

oh boy...
I think people are taking my Land Raider comment too far: The point was that crushing claws on a carnifex pretty much guarantees the destruction of an undamaged Land Raider--- aka vehichles are a goner for crushing clawed carnifexes.

[Anggul]

oh boy...
I think people are taking my Land Raider comment too far: The point was that crushing claws on a carnifex pretty much guarantees the destruction of an undamaged Land Raider--- aka vehichles are a goner for crushing clawed carnifexes.

That was my point too though, S10 on the charge is all you need, paying for Crushing Claws to have it every round seems a bit of a waste, especially when assault-focussed Carnifexes are always going to have Adrenal Glands anyway.

[Halollet]

Speaking about bio-morphs. I'm wondering how to equip my Flyrant now. I like him in close combat so I had him running bonesword, whip, and talons but now that seems lack luster. I could just drop the CC and go TL Devourers but that's not how I play. So how would you equip a CC flyrant now?

[Tyrendian]

Speaking about bio-morphs. I'm wondering how to equip my Flyrant now. I like him in close combat so I had him running bonesword, whip, and talons but now that seems lack luster. I could just drop the CC and go TL Devourers but that's not how I play. So how would you equip a CC flyrant now?

what´s wrong with Sword&Whip? keeps him relatively cheap, and it´s not like you really wanted rending on him...

[Just_Me]

Speaking about bio-morphs. I'm wondering how to equip my Flyrant now. I like him in close combat so I had him running bonesword, whip, and talons but now that seems lack luster. I could just drop the CC and go TL Devourers but that's not how I play. So how would you equip a CC flyrant now?

Personally I think I'll run mine with a Heavy Venom cannon and Scything Talons (basically the same as my walking Tyrant). I think Boneswords look stupid and aren't really that necessary on a MC, the +3 initiative from the whip is nice but again, sword & whip look stupid. If you want a really inexpensive CC Flyrant just give it wings & toxin then call it done. The two sets of Scything Talons give him a bonus attack and cost you nothing.

Of course, a lot of my choices are dictated by what I think looks cool (e.g. Crushing Claws, Fleshborer Hive, etc.)...

[Tynskel]

Personally I think I'll run mine with a Heavy Venom cannon and Scything Talons (basically the same as my walking Tyrant). I think Boneswords look stupid and aren't really that necessary on a MC, the +3 initiative from the whip is nice but again, sword & whip look stupid. If you want a really inexpensive CC Flyrant just give it wings & toxin then call it done. The two sets of Scything Talons give him a bonus attack and cost you nothing.

Of course, a lot of my choices are dictated by what I think looks cool (e.g. Crushing Claws, Fleshborer Hive, etc.)...

looks are mitigated by modeling. The Bonesword/Lash is great for the simple purpose of adding 3 to initiative and some instant death goodness.

[Halollet]

looks are mitigated by modeling. The Bonesword/Lash is great for the simple purpose of adding 3 to initiative and some instant death goodness.

Not sure if the 'only on a 6' is worth really relying on. I wasn't sure if the +3 Ini was going to be worth it, but then I realized that the tyrant is a character so there are challenges. Had another thought about that too.... Charge in and issue a challenge and smite the character. With an ini of 8, you'll be going first and you get what, 4 smash attacks on the charge? Then on their turn you start slaughtering the rest of the guys hoping they will fall back without too much retailiation.

This way they can't shoot you and you go around smiting most of a unit every turn.

That might be worth it!

[Just_Me]

looks are mitigated by modeling. The Bonesword/Lash is great for the simple purpose of adding 3 to initiative and some instant death goodness.

On that note (and somewhat off thread) I'm not a huge fan of the god-awful looking Rupture Cannon model, though I like them and Tyrannofex overall. What do you think of using the twin Stranglethorn limbs from the Harpy model? The Rupture Cannon is a heavy 2 weapon so the two weapons don't seem that unreasonable. To me the Tyrannofex looks like a scaled-down Hierophant in overall profile, what with the sharply arched body and long spidery front limbs, and I'd like to keep with that image with something like the Hierophant's Bio-Cannons.

[daboarder]

my biggest problem with teh Tyrannofex is the weapons, they should have been more central like the artwork with both arms supporting them. Or at least the rupture cannon should have been, the acid spray should have been like the harpies strangle thorn cannons, each arm a gun, then like the fleshborer hive it harks back to the heirophant model.

I'm going to be running a Tyrannofex with converted acid spray guns like that, should look way cooler and unique than the giant phexphant

[Just_Me]

my biggest problem with teh Tyrannofex is the weapons, they should have been more central like the artwork with both arms supporting them. Or at least the rupture cannon should have been, the acid spray should have been like the harpies strangle thorn cannons, each arm a gun, then like the fleshborer hive it harks back to the heirophant model.

I'm going to be running a Tyrannofex with converted acid spray guns like that, should look way cooler and unique than the giant phexphant

Why not just use the Hive Crone head & arms with the Drool Cannon? that would be an AWESOME Acid Spray conversion!

...because yeah, the Tyrannofex's stock weapons look awful. Barring the Fleshborer Hive which is kinda lackluster in performance.

[Just_Me]

The more I think about it the more I think I may steal my own suggestion with the Drool Cannon/Acid Spray conversion. How effective do people find the Acid Spray to be? The Rupture Cannon is clearly more powerful but with the Tyrannofex's low BS I feel like it's a gamble for the points (if only they were blasts it would be a no-brainer).

Next consideration, bio-artefacts and the Norn Crown. With synapse being so pivotal to our swarms (as it should be) I was thinking of using a heavily defended Tyrant with Guards, a Heavy Venom Cannon and the Crown as backstop in the center rear of the army and projecting the rest of my synapse network with a Flyrant, minimum Warrior broods and Zoanthropes. If any part of that is lost then the large synapse bubble of the Tyrant should be able to catch them before they can flee or eat themselves and give me time to redistribute the rest of the network. It would be an expensive unit but would give me a solid core that is hard to remove without disproportionate effort and threatens anything that it might encounter, though I'm concerned that the Norn Crown is too expensive.

The rest of the bio-artefacts seem a bit pointless on a Tyrant.

[Broodingman87]

The more I think about it the more I think I may steal my own suggestion with the Drool Cannon/Acid Spray conversion. How effective do people find the Acid Spray to be? The Rupture Cannon is clearly more powerful but with the Tyrannofex's low BS I feel like it's a gamble for the points (if only they were blasts it would be a no-brainer).

Next consideration, bio-artefacts and the Norn Crown. With synapse being so pivotal to our swarms (as it should be) I was thinking of using a heavily defended Tyrant with Guards, a Heavy Venom Cannon and the Crown as backstop in the center rear of the army and projecting the rest of my synapse network with a Flyrant, minimum Warrior broods and Zoanthropes. If any part of that is lost then the large synapse bubble of the Tyrant should be able to catch them before they can flee or eat themselves and give me time to redistribute the rest of the network. It would be an expensive unit but would give me a solid core that is hard to remove without disproportionate effort and threatens anything that it might encounter, though I'm concerned that the Norn Crown is too expensive.

The rest of the bio-artefacts seem a bit pointless on a Tyrant.

The Acid spray T-fex is really good (against orks it's broken). I find the Ymgarl on a Slayer Tyrant do be really good though.