Question about stat lines in the new tyranid rule book

[Chrono10]

Question about stat lines in the rule book. Are the extra attacks conferred by weapons included already?

After reading this rule it brought up this question for me: (Pg. 63)
"Tyranid models must fight with two pairs of melee weapons to gain a bonus attack in close combat. For example a hormagaunt armed with a single pair of scything talons does not gain a bonus attack, but a ravener with two pair of scything talons, or a genestealer with a pair of rending claws and a pair of scything talons, does."

So, if a genestealer that has 2 attacks adds an upgrade for a scything talons he gets a 3rd attack. - that's fairly simple
Also, it says a ravener should get a bonus attack - is that included already? (I would think so)

But, What if someone takes an upgrade that then looses the scything talons. should you subtract one from the stat line? Most of the time when you upgrade it is for trading a ranged weapon for a ranged weapon and a melee bio-weapon for a melee bio-weapon, but Under Monstrous Bio-cannons you trade scything talons for ranged weapons.

[kublade]

The +1 attack is added after the stat-line, so a genestealer should then get 3 attacks, 4 on the charge. Also, two pairs of rending claws gives +1 attack, so you do not need to ever buy scything talons, as they are useless now. Trading a pair of close combat weapons for a ranged weapon does make you lose the +1, but you never alter the stat-line.

Edit: Actually I guess genestealers only have Rending claws, not "two pairs" so that's rather lame. So if you want their +1 attack you do have to buy some fail talons. I compared their biomorphs to say raveners who list "two pairs of scything talons" so that would mean they only use one set of their arms if they don't have scything talons.

[DarkLink]

They are not included in the statline.

[daboarder]

No one mention the Chaos Characters and Marks, you'll only confuse the poor bloke.

[Houghten]

Or Deff Dreads. >.>

[euansmith]

This will all be cleared up in the Waargh Eight-pointed Gribble Supplement: the Ork, Chaos, 'Nid book.

[Tynskel]

The +1 attack is added after the stat-line, so a genestealer should then get 3 attacks, 4 on the charge. Also, two pairs of rending claws gives +1 attack, so you do not need to ever buy scything talons, as they are useless now. Trading a pair of close combat weapons for a ranged weapon does make you lose the +1, but you never alter the stat-line.

Edit: Actually I guess genestealers only have Rending claws, not "two pairs" so that's rather lame. So if you want their +1 attack you do have to buy some fail talons. I compared their biomorphs to say raveners who list "two pairs of scything talons" so that would mean they only use one set of their arms if they don't have scything talons.

Fail talons? What's wrong with you? You are gaining an attack!

[DarkLink]

Reroll to hit is better, and they lost that, and a lot of stuff lost an attack that they previously had so the bonus attack doesn't gain you much. At least if you smash you get one more attack with most MCs.

[evilamericorp]

Reroll to hit is better, and they lost that, and a lot of stuff lost an attack that they previously had so the bonus attack doesn't gain you much. At least if you smash you get one more attack with most MCs.

I miss my tervigons being able to get 9 Smash attacks on the charge with crushing claws and warp speed...

[Tynskel]

I miss my tervigons being able to get 9 Smash attacks on the charge with crushing claws and warp speed...

Oh, I wonder why the Tervigon got nerfed...

[Tynskel]

Reroll to hit is better, and they lost that, and a lot of stuff lost an attack that they previously had so the bonus attack doesn't gain you much. At least if you xsmash you get one more attack with most MCs.

you only got to re-roll on 1s with genestealers... I'll take that extra attack, thank you.

[kublade]

Fail talons? What's wrong with you? You are gaining an attack!

Regardless of gaining the +1 attack, they are fail talons now. Regardless of smaller creatures using them, for hormagants they are not fail talons, but for monstrous creatures, they are utterly completely useless. So genestealers do gain the benefit of +1 attack, but for 4 points per model you want with an extra attack? It seems rather ineffective, as genestealers are already going to find it hard to earn their keep in points, you'd have to be pretty lucky to get them in close combat for that +1 attack to matter. Only way I see spending the extra 4 points is the throw it on 4-5 out of 10 or so, and keep them in back so they die last.

Main point still being, they have four arms, they want us to just ignore those 2 extra arms unless we have scything talons. Good job GW.

[DarkLink]

you only got to re-roll on 1s with genestealers... I'll take that extra attack, thank you.

Honestly, not really relevant on genestealers. They're massively overpriced bolter bait. What they can do in assault is pretty irrelevant if they can't reach assault. But, hey, at least the Horror is a funny little trick they can pull.

[Tynskel]

Hard to get shot when they are pinned...

[DarkLink]

It's only one unit, and it's not that reliable. And even then, a lot of units can still kill a unit of genestealers snap firing. It's not a bad power, but don't get too excited about it.

[Tynskel]

It's only one unit, and it's not that reliable. And even then, a lot of units can still kill a unit of genestealers snap firing. It's not a bad power, but don't get too excited about it.

funny how you were just saying that for gargoyles only two would die to snap fire...
I sense some inconsistencies in this one...

[Broodingman87]

funny how you were just saying that for gargoyles only two would die to snap fire...
I sense some inconsistencies in this one...

Well, like all debates people are half right. He's is right that the lose of 2 Genestealer from overwatch is a lot harsher than the lose of 2 Gargoyles. And he is right that we just got trolled by GW in a couple units most notable the Trygon and Carnifex. " Hey, instead of stacking rules you can now stack bonus attack like everyone else... but the way we've reduce the number of attacks you get to compensate." And really that's the only thing about this codex I'm on GW about is that troll job. But Darklink, seeing as how most units can take 2 different types of weapons, re-rolling 1s is meaningless compared to +1 A, the only units that are really hurt by that is Hormagant and Trygon.

[Tynskel]

Well, like all debates people are half right. He's is right that the lose of 2 Genestealer from overwatch is a lot harsher than the lose of 2 Gargoyles. And he is right that we just got trolled by GW in a couple units most notable the Trygon and Carnifex. " Hey, instead of stacking rules you can now stack bonus attack like everyone else... but the way we've reduce the number of attacks you get to compensate." And really that's the only thing about this codex I'm on GW about is that troll job. But Darklink, seeing as how most units can take 2 different types of weapons, re-rolling 1s is meaningless compared to +1 A, the only units that are really hurt by that is Hormagant and Trygon.

Exactly my point. well, except the 'trolling', because all the re-rolls were dumb a skunk. Why should Tyranids be the re-roll king? They are not *that* good in close combat. It's their numbers...