Daboarders Nid Review and Tactics

[daboarder]

OK all,

The new codex is here, and my opinion of everything we've heard so far has been pretty clear, but as I have said numerous times, Hypotheses are made to be challenged, changed and broken. What follows is My thoughts on the codex, not the presentation (which beyond a few pictures that looks really funnily stupid) is fantastic, but the rules, the crunch the part of the game that lets you use those beautiful models we've bought and spent hours converting and painting.

I'm going to try to refrain from comparing this codex to the last one, the last one was terrible (baring a brief bright spot at the end with the advent of 6th ed) we all know that but this is what we have now so lets dive into the deep end and learn to swim.

Army Wide Special Rules:

Instinctive Behaviour: One of the rules that literally defines a Tyranid army, You know it you love it and you probably hate it as a nid player (which is kinda the point). So the basis of how it works is that at the start of every turn any Tyranid units without at least 1 model within synapse range of a synapse creature must take a leadership test, if the test is failed you roll on a separate chart which tells you how your Tyranid creature reacts to the situation it finds itself in without the overbearing will of the hive mind.

Tactical considerations: Given the low leadership of most Tyranid units, which typically ranges mostly between 6 and 8 for non synapse creatures. It is very important to ensure that any army has a robust synapse web. Stay away from big lynchpin creatures that try to hold the whole army together by themselves, All they are doing is waving a big "shoot me first" sign over their heads. Instead Look to have overlapping fields of synapse so that if you lose a unit you don't madly have to re-arrange your army so that its back in control. Look to units such as Zoanthropes that serve dual purposes as gun batteries, support and synapse to really add that extra layer to your web.
Another tactic is to string out your units, only one model in a unit needs to be within synapse range and while risky is therefore possible to drag your units out over a wide area in order to maintain control. Kind of like bellow

XXXXXXXXX
xxxxxx
xxxxx
xx
xx
x
S

While it is dangerous as it allows mobile enemies to manoeuvre and kill lynchpin models it helps us apply board control and force those dangerous decisions concerning target priority on our opponents.

As to the tables themselves: They can broadly be designated as the "Defensive" the "Shooty" and the "Stabby" lists, the first result covering the rolls of 1-3 is usually debilitating, it's a bad thing, hope it doesn't happen, units either fall back, go to ground or eat themselves. This is worst on the assault units that actually do try and kill themselves about half the time they fail an IB roll, therefore it is even more important to ensure that you have a secure forward synapse net to hold the little bugs in line.

the second set of results (4-5) is pretty much the same as last edition, the unit either runs to terrain and is not allowed to shoot unless inside it, shoots at the closest visible enemy unit (So don't let those biovores and Hive guard out of synapse as they are not allowed to fire upon units they cannot see) and finally Feeding units must attempt to charge the closest visible enemy unit. These results aren't so bad but remember they will happen less often than the "bad" ones and more often than the ostensibly "good" results, it's wrong to think of these as the default results because they are in the middle of the table so don't do it.

And finally on a 6 we get the "benefits" of IB, Mechanically they operate like the 4-5 results but have a few special advantages that make life a little easier for the bug that rolls them. Namely Stealth, Preferred enemy and Rage.
While it is tempting to think of the hilarity that ensues when your opponent kills a synapse creature only to find your units MORE effective, dont! It's a bad idea, Instinct behaviour is bad so make sure you have synapse at all times.

Also, if you're running disruption units or units designed to range ahead of your main force your going to need extra fast synapse to accompany it as most of our "vanguard" organisms now have instinctive behaviour (see lictor)

Synapse: yeah its pretty good.

Nah, synapse is the off set to IB, its what makes a nid army tick. What does it do? gives fearless and auto-rally
Now while that doesn't sound huge it means that nids in synapse range probably give the least amount of proverbial things about moral, even more so than marines. "but what about terrify" I hear you say, well yeah terrify is still rough on us, I'll pay that, but the auto-rally in synapse that appears initially redundant (fearless gives auto-rally) is I believe specifically there to protect us from terrify, as while the unit may not get the benefit of fearless when terrified it still does not continue to run while under synapse.

So all good.

As to the other benefits of synapse, there aren't a lot of armies that can kill multiple units of 30 gants or gaunts in combat, not because gants and gaunts are hard to kill, but because they have to kill EVERY SINGLE ONE of the flippin little things.
So Synapse good!

Shadow in the Warp:

A 12 bubble of aggressive psychic defence. In an age where almost all psychic defence has become passive and force multiplying blessings are the really valuable parts of the psychic disciplines (see 2++ rerollable saves) being able to drop the casting potential of any psyker in the game to around 50% at best is fantastic. It is a shame that the radius for shadow is not intrinsically linked with the synapse special rule as then the army would be able to achieve some extremely strong anti-psycker combos with the Norn Crown, primaris and warlord traits.

Therefore we have probably 2 ways of really using this power, the first is to merely rely on it once the swarm hits home, to protect you from force weapons, maledictions and witch fires allowing you to largely ignore these powers (50% cast and still get DtW). While this is appropriate it is perhaps not the most interesting and efficient use of this rule, the other way to use it is to implement a fast mobile and dangerous synapse creature of your own (re: Flyrant) to hunt down enemy psykers, preventing them from casting the truly game changing powers like the divination tree or the eldar seer powers, and then crushing them with your tyrant.

Oh and NB: Despite the quick reference chart at the back of the book the full text for the rule means that no, shadow does NOT stack for each synapse creature.

edit: a Secondary note on shadow, the leadership de-buff is not just for psychic checks it is for all leadership test, this doesn't mean much for most support psykers who are usually hiding in squads and then therefore using the squad leadership for non psychic checks. But for units like Daemon princes's and fateweaver, it can be brutal, it is also another knife this army puts into seercouncils as they are all psykers they all take the Ld drop to their other tests.

So, Shadow good.

Next chapter (Warlord traits and Relics)

[Tyrendian]

just to chime in very quickly - feel free to delete this post quickly so as to preserve the integrity of your review - Shadow reduces the LD of psykers in general, not just for psychic checks - which stacks nicely with The Horror or any other Pinning weapon of your choice... just thought that was worth mentioning, as I feel that´s a pretty significant buff to Shadow and Trygon Primes/Flyrants in general

[daboarder]

Eh, thought I'd mentioned that, Ill put it in.

[exarkhun3997aby]

Oh very good thread, I´m looking forward to reading the next chapter ;)

[Renegade]

Hurry up and write!

I am thinking of starting a nid army and take all well considered write ups into account.

[daboarder]

Warlord traits:


I'm going to break these down by roll for ease of analysis.

1) Natures Bane: Sigh, ok let's be honest, this thing could be cool.....if it had only allowed any piece of area terrain to be carnivorated.

It can turn any forest, jungle or wooded area into a carnivorous jungle at the start of your movement phase, just be sure to designate with your opponent which pieces of terrain can be affected by it (and considering what it represents a pretty broad interpretation should be fine). This means that any unit in the terrain suffers D3 S5 Ap- Ignores cover hits at the start of its shooting phase.

edit: It is only models that are inside of the terrain that can be allocated hits from this weapon, so if your opponent is hiding certain models outside the terrain to prevent them getting nabbed, punish him with focus fire.

REMEMBER: It's a two player game and terrain designation is ALWAYS negotiable (even in tournaments), if you plan on rolling on the Nid table then put your foot down on volume and placing. I still see this one causing a lot of arguments though.

2) heightened senses: Units within 12 of the warlord gain night vision, the use your army gets out of this one depends on your list itself, an army that has a considerable amount of fast shooters (re: FMC's) and mid-range non-ignoring cover weapons (so the exocrine and certain tyranofex builds and warrior heavy weapons)

Remember that your synapse creature and your other bugs get to move before using this, the best way to make it effective is probably combining it with onslaught (good luck!)

There is not really too much to say on this, it's not as effective as you would expect at first glance as most tyranid weapons are either too short range to use it effectively (turn 1 is most important, if it is night fight T5+ then you should already be in his lines) or already ignore cover. For the mid range guns it likely just removes stealth for a turn, not bad, but not much to write home about. So to use it keep your warlord central and spread it to as many units as you can)


3) Synaptic lynchpin: Add 6 to your warlords synapse range.

This is probably one of the most "useful" traits in the list, it's a solid choice in an army that is brutally punished by being out of synapse and as its "free", unlike other methods of increasing synapse, there aren't any drawbacks to it that don't already exist due to the unit already being your warlord.
Don't rely on rolling it but if you do it means you can play your swarm slightly looser in its formation and take a few more risks on your synapse coverage positioning.


4) Mind Eater: 2 Vp's for killing IC's in challenges.

This one honestly seems really weird to me, I mean there is tonnes of background about how nids just don't give to proverbs about challenges (hello avatar, meet carnifexes).

Again realistically it won't ever come up, your warlord should either already be curb stomping any character in a challenge, thus forcing the opponent to deny, or will likely get creamed himself (stupid chapter masters).

Tactically the best way to use this warlord trait is as an area denial threat, force your opponent to stay on the move to keep away from your warlord, but dont put yourself in a compromising position to get 2 Vp's.

Remember at the end of the day it's not how many VP's you have, that matters, only if you have more than your opponent, so keep that synapse net solid again.
NB: this trait is extra funny against Chaos Space marines who just get gutted by must challenge.

5) Digestive Denial: Reduce the cover on terrain in your opponents deployment zone.
This trait is again pretty nice, it happens before your opponents scout and infiltrate moves so they can re-deploy if they need to.

I recommend picking terrain closer to the centre of the board and forwards in their deployment zone. This is because most Tyranid long range guns already ignore cover, therefore you want to be affecting the most guns you can.

Another consideration to take into account is to place it where your opponent would likely place infiltrators, objective campers or screening units (re: Cultists, Kroot, scouts etc) that rely on cover to survive. So terrain pieces that have objectives placed upon them are prime targets.

6) Adaptive Biology: Warlord and unit gain FNP in the movement phase after suffering a wound.
Makes your warlord tougher, not much to say really. Means you can be more aggressive with him and his unit but its best to think of this as a nice little bonus or redundancy (for catalyst) than anything else. It is however particularly funny if you have regen on your warlord.

Overview:
Honestly, despite my attempts to remain positive the Tyranid warlord traits are largely uninspiring, while I don't think it's a terrible table choosing to roll on it contains risks that all tables have of getting useless traits (don't roll that 1) (And screw tau's snowflake re-rolls). IF the first roll affected any area terrain then I could probably say that there is no harm in rolling on this warlord table, but as it is I think most Tyranid lists are better served rolling on either Command (providing much needed force multiplication to our central warlords) and Strategic (Opening up potential much needed deployment options)

Next Instalment: Bio-Artifacts.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Shooting Tyranid armies make me vomit.
It just doesn't seem very Tyranid to have a gunline. Too organised, they aren't the Tau, they should be in combat eating fools.

As such, there aren't any purchased guns in my army.

[daboarder]

Shooting Tyranid armies make me vomit.
It just doesn't seem very Tyranid to have a gunline. Too organised, they aren't the Tau, they should be in combat eating fools.

As such, there aren't any purchased guns in my army.

um....ok?

not sure what your point is TDA? If your running a CC only army then your going to have a rough time, and I'd recommend Strategic as your trait table, your really going to need the deployment options.

[daboarder]

Bio-Artifacts:
OH BOY! ok here goes, let's look at the unique twists we can provide for our characters. This is where we start to get into the meat of the codex. For the relics I'm going to just go through my thoughts on each and discuss a few units I think they either have potential on, or are particularly bad on and should be avoided.

Maw-Claws of Thyrax:

S: User, Ap:5 Rending, Assimilate, Melee

Cute little things, honestly a modest upgrade to scything talons (shudder!). At the points cost they come in at they aren't bad on a number of models.

At first glance these are ok if a bit generic.
Personally I think they have potential on our "dual role" characters more than on our Close combat ones as unlike old adversary the preferred enemy they grant also applies to shooting.

Tyrants: I wouldn't recommend them on a walking tyrant as he is typically too slow to get the benefit early enough in the game for it too matter, but if you're running a CC flyrant, or a flyrant with VC/SC instead of twin devourers then they aren't bad, jump in and kill something quick to gain a modest boost to your CC potential and shooting.
NB: If you take these on a CC Flyrant consider NOT taking a bone sword and Lashwhip to keep it cheaper.

Tyranid Prime: They are a good substitute for the old cheap builds with Rending claws. If you are running a Prime and want a bit of CC boost or a bit of a shooting buff mid-late game then grab them if you have the points to spare.

Trygon Prime: This is where I think they can really shine. Seriously for a pittance of his already expensive price you give a prime rerolls of 1's to hit and wound with his mass shooting and attacks, after he munches something of course, but a Trygon should have no problem achieving this.

Don't take them on a Tervigon.

The Norn Crown:

+6 Synapse range.




Man I don't even know where to begin......


Well I do really, there are very few if ANY places to spend this exorbitant amount of points in a Tyranid list.

Yes when you stick it on a tyrant and stack it with dominion and Lynchpin you get a truly sickening synapse coverage range, but in my opinion if you try and build a list around such a tactic then you opponent is just going to kill the Tyrant and watch the rest of the swarm crumple like you just kicked it in the knackers.

The real problem with this item is redundancy, there are two other ways of increasing the synapse range of critters in this codex and neither of them has much in the way of a cost attached to them. If it was cheaper, considerably cheaper, then it would be worth considering as a means of adding redundancy to your synapse web, but at the points cost of a unit of gants or most of a 'thrope (either kind) its too many points into a unit that just becomes a primary focus for enemy firepower.

The Miasma Cannon:

A ranged weapon with two firing modes.
36 S1 Ap4 Assault1 Blast Poison (2+)
Template S1 Ap4 Assault1 Poison (2+)


I actually LIKE this one. Just not on the units I've heard most people think about running them on.
Personally I think the best way to look at this one is as a poisoned template weapon first and a ranged threat second, the reason I say this is because the small Ap4 blst is not going to hit much and is going to allow cover when it does, but the template can be really mean before a charge, or even in overwatch.

Hive Tyrant: I wouldn't take it on a tyrant, for 5 points more I can get a regular Heavy Venom Cannon and a thorax swarm, the HVC already wounds everything but the wraith critters on a 2+ due to its strength 9 and can puncture tanks. While the swarms offer better utility in their templates.

Tyranid Prime: it's not a bad choice, particularly if you're running him with deathspitter/strangler warriors, another blast template to throw down range and a nifty template are a good buy on this build, and the great thing about the MC is its not bank breaking expensive.

Trygon Prime: I'm noticing a trend here, I really, really like the biomorphs to go on trygon primes...

Your buying another range weapon for a MC that only has 1, always a plus as he shoots both.
And you get him a flamer again, what's not to love!

Tervigon: Another no from me on this one, again don't make your synapse more expensive than it needs to be. Keep the stinger salvo, grab a thorax swarm for cheaper if you really want a template and leave the Miasma Cannon to other critters.

The Ymgarl Factor:

Switch out +1A, +1S and +1Sv for each assault phase.

Another one I don't like because of its cost. It's too expensive on any of the critters really, the defensive benefit is too situational and the other benefits are replicated cheaper and elsewhere in the codex (Adglands and Charging). And before you argue that those are for only 1 turn, if your bug is in combat for 3+ turns (thus using all the morphs at some point and one twice) then you have serious problems.
IF it worked turn wide then yeah it would definitely have its place but as it is it just makes your synapse more expensive for a minimal, situational survival buff.

Reaper of Obliterax:


S+1, Ap3 Shred, Lifedrain, Swift strike.


This one is silly, particularly as its 15 pts more than a regular lashwhip and bonesword combined with toxin sacs.
It does give some slight chances to increase the ID odds against tough foes when not smashing, but I don't think the slight chance increase (it's really small, PowerKlaw did it out somewhere) is worth the cost, particularly when I could buy Adrenal Glands and completely replicate it, with extra benefits against high T critters and FLEET. (yes it's on the charge only but again how long do you want your MC's on combat for?)

In the interests of fairness however it does combine cutely with Adrenal glands to give a tyrant S8 on the charge but other than that and giving a Trygon +3I there's nothing that really comes close to justifying the price tag.

Next Installment: Psychic Powers.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

um....ok?

not sure what your point is TDA? If your running a CC only army then your going to have a rough time, and I'd recommend Strategic as your trait table, your really going to need the deployment options.

Almost everything can outflank, infiltrate, or deep strike.

[daboarder]

Almost everything can outflank, infiltrate, or deep strike.

TDA, your gonna have to do more than just throw out single lines if you want to discuss things. I've got no idea what the point your trying to make but I'll respond to the one I think you are.

Reserve heavy forces are interesting to look at but due to the rules this edition there are a number of limitations to them, particularly close combat ones.

1) Only 50% of an army can be in reserves
2) If those are combat critters only then they are sitting around in position for a turn allowing the enemy to position themselves to take the charge, shoot you in the face, and even counter charge you if they want.

Thats why I suggested that its going to be rough (not unplayable) and that I recommend you roll strategic, you want to maximise the target saturation of both you on board and reserve presence as well as ensure that your reserves don't linger off the table. The most effective ways of doing this for nids are...

1) running the swarmlord (a points intensive model that I will get to when I do our HQ units)
2) An aegis line with comms relay
3) rolling on the strategic table, the results either protect you on board presence, ensure that your reserve units arrive where or when you want them, or prevent your enemy from efficiently bringing their own forces to bear.

Of particular problem to nid reserve lists is the synapse issue, yes they don't need to roll the turn they arrive but they will need to roll to do anything T3 onward. In fact you probably need even more synapse in such a reserve army to prevent the enemy from tacking your force apart piecemeal. If you don't have enough synapse n you 50% then you enemy can kill that and then largely ignore that portion of your army as unless you bring in your synapse there (wondering why you would then reserve it at all in that case). This means that you need more synapse than a regular nid list (I wouldn't say twice as much, but definitely more)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

The Swarmlord, you mean the big expensive lynchpin unit that you advised against? xD

[daboarder]

Believe me I'll cover the swarmlord when I get to him.

[daboarder]

Psychic Powers:

Ok, we have no BRB powers, for these articles we're going to accept that and move on.

Primaris) Dominion:

Blessing, caster gains +6 to its synapse range.
A solid power, and as I said earlier one of the two things which make the norn crown rather redundant. Personally while I advocate always having this power available if possible I would not usually recommend swapping out whatever the first power you roll for it. This is because despite being situational all the Tyranid psychic powers will have their uses throughout the game, and by keeping whatever power you roll first you increase your odds of gaining the much desirable catalyst. Other than that, having dominion on tougher units is good as it means later in the game when you've lost some of you synapse network you can rely on being able to still control the swarm.

1) Catalyst:

Blessing, targets the psyker's unit, and one other friendly within 12. Gains Feel No Pain
The big one, the one you want where you can. This thing is the best power on the list, it does wonders for the list, both increasing the survivability of the psyker and another unit, this power goes good anywhere really and you shouldn't need me to tell you how best to use it. Don't worry about keeping whatever model rolled it central, the 12 range on the rebound means that its likely you can reach any squad you want to give it too.
Prime targets for the rebound include big squads of gants and gaunts about to hit cover, Monstrous creature squads that typically draw large volumes of fire, and other synapse units (keeping them alive is a priority)

2) The Horror

Maledicition 24 target takes a pinning check as -2Ld
A solid power, there are benefits and drawbacks to its designation as a malediciton instead of a witchfire. Malediction means that you do not have to charge the unit that the psychic power is cast on, meaning you can throw it up to 24 across the board to support another assault (Units in cover about to be assaulted by gants and gaunts are prime targets for this) and still smash into another unit. More importantly being a malediction means that the caster does not have to roll to hit the unit he is targeting, they just get their deny the witch and thats it. The drawback to being a malediction is that because they occur at the start of the movement phase you have to have LOS to the target in the opponents turn. This is mitigated somewhat by the long range and a willingness to throw it on targets of opportunity.

3) Onslaught:

Blessing, 24, target may run and shoot in its shooting phase
I haven't rolled this one yet, and I didn't run it last edition as I never felt it was worth 15 pts. Its a good power, not something you can rely in as you still need to roll your run distance, but as Eldar have shown us on fleeting units such an ability is remarkably versatile and dangerous in the right position. Prime targets include Zoanthropes and Hivegaurd or carnifexen. I wouldn't put adrenal glands on a unit in the hopes of getting this power and being able to reroll its run move, but its a nice power that should be useful in any balanced Tyranid list. Note however if you roll this power up as your second power, then it is also completely reasonable to swap out for the primaris if you feel that you could use the coverage more than the shooting boost.

NB: This power is not just a clone of battlefocus, you may only run before you shoot not after, I feel this is not as much of an issue as it appears as typically Nids should be playing aggressively and moving towards the enemy when they can, but be aware of it.

4) Paroxysm:

Malediction, 24, target lowers its WS and BS by D3
Another solid power, it has the same drawbacks and benefits for being a malediction that the horror suffers from and ultimately should be used the same way to be most efficient. It does however have added utility in that you can also use it to pro-actively hurt an opponent's unit. If you are unable to reach out and kill an enemy unit or prevent them from shooting you or assaulting you in there coming turn, throw paroxysm on the unit to make its effectiveness that much worse.

Notes:
Paroxysm can never lower a targets statistics bellow 1 so no gimping a unit to BS0 to prevent shooting.
It may be used on units in locked Close Combat
And finally smack a unit with this multiple times to really put the hurt on.

5) Psychic Scream:

Nova, 6, Units roll 2d6+2 test against their Ld and take a number of wounds equal to what they fail by, No armour or cover allowed.
Honestly, this is probably the weakest power in the whole list, it has short range and is rarely going to hit more than a single unit, furthermore unlike shriek in telekinesis it has a tighter probability, now while this means that you're more likely to roll 7+2 for an 9 it also means that the maximum pay out of the power is a roll of 14 as opposed to 18. remember you don't care if the roll is lower than the leadership therefore a roll of say 6 may as well be snake eyes.
This is the power I'm most likely to swap out for the utility offered by dominion unless I roll it on a Flying Hiver Tyrant who actually has the speed to at least try and smack multiple units with it.

NB: This power is particularly funny (re: painful) when used on screamer stars, grey knights and seer councils, remember that Shadow in the Warp is -3 Ld.

6) Warp Blast:

Warp charge 2, Witchfire, two fire modes.
24 S5 Ap3 Blast assault1
18 S10 Ap2 Assault1 Lance
We pay through the nose for this one, and if your casting it with anything but the Swarmlord then you're not casting one of our other powers, so make sure before the movement phase that your putting your warpcharges where they'll do the most damage. We all know the prime targets for this one, armour and bunched infantry (all sorts, the Ap3 is just icing) on a Flying Tyrant it also is a nifty anti-flier unit (even if you do gain no benefits from lance), remember though that casting it counts as shooting a weapon, so if you use this, you're not firing both those devourers on your flyrant (assuming you bought them)

Next instalment : HQ's

[Tyrendian]

3) Onslaught:
I haven't rolled this one yet, and I didn't run it last edition as I never felt it was worth 15 pts. Its a good power, not something you can rely in as you still need to roll your run distance, but as Eldar have shown us on fleeting units such an ability is remarkably versatile and dangerous in the right position. Prime targets include Zoanthropes and Hivegaurd or carnifexen. I wouldn't put adrenal glands on a unit in the hopes of getting this power and being able to reroll its run move, but its a nice power that should be useful in any balanced Tyranid list. Note however if you roll this power up as your second power, then it is also completely reasonable to swap out for the primaris if you feel that you could use the coverage more than the shooting boost.


the wording in the german ´dex implies it´s worse than Battle Focus - there it says you may "run and then shoot", but no word on the opposite (which we probably need less than the fragile Eldar, but still would have been useful to have...). Is it the same in the english version?

[Tynskel]

Dude.

Daboarderereererer,
you are totally wrong about Psychic Scream. I have been using Psychic Scream for years now. It was my favorite power in the 5th Edition Codex, and it was improved upon now in the new 6th Codex.

Never gunna hit anything? Bwah? I usually hit 3 units at time!

[Tyrendian]

I usually hit 3 units at time!

doing what? a wound each? if even that... it isn´t completely horrible, but I still think it´s the weakest from the list - which is quite nice in and of itself; while we don´t have the amazing powers some other disciplines have, there is also a distinct lack of really bad ones (hello Death Mission...)

[Halollet]

Psychic Powers:

5) Psychic Scream:
Honestly, this is probably the weakest power in the whole list, it has short range and is rarely going to hit more than a single unit, furthermore unlike shriek in telekinesis it has a tighter probability, now while this means that you're more likely to roll 7+2 for an 9 it also means that the maximum pay out of the power is a roll of 14 as opposed to 18. remember you don't care if the roll is lower than the leadership therefore a roll of say 6 may as well be snake eyes.
This is the power I'm most likely to swap out for the utility offered by dominion unless I roll it on a Flying Hiver Tyrant who actually has the speed to at least try and smack multiple units with it.


I wouldn't right this off just yet. Its situational for sure, but this thing is the bane of Grey Knights. Nova powers can hit units in combat so what you do is tarpit those paladins with gaunts and then just sit out of combat and scream them to death. Remember that they have -3 ld from SotW so that 2d6+2 is going to hurt!

Against any unit of psykers, this power is going to hurt. Lone psyker models would be devastated by this. Aren't Daemon Princes pyskers? Don't they want to run up and give you a hug?

[Tynskel]

doing what? a wound each? if even that... it isn´t completely horrible, but I still think it´s the weakest from the list - which is quite nice in and of itself; while we don´t have the amazing powers some other disciplines have, there is also a distinct lack of really bad ones (hello Death Mission...)

Dude, not everyone in the game has Ld 10. Now with the +2 you have a solid chance of doing 2-3 wounds against multiple Marine Squads. That's valuable.

[Tyrendian]

Dude, not everyone in the game has Ld 10. Now with the +2 you have a solid chance of doing 2-3 wounds against multiple Marine Squads. That's valuable.

against Marines of most flavors or Eldar you´re looking at LD9 on many of the squads, provided they have leaders, meaning on the average 7 you do not do a single wound, and even at Ld8 (which is a bit more common admittedly, including Riptides and Broadsides afaik - no Tau book to hand to check) you will do nothing around 40% of the time... furthermore, Scream is pretty much only good on a Flyrant... so yes, I still think it´s the weakest of the seven, but it´s still quite decent and does have its value, if situational (like most of them)

ofc, against psykers it´s just brutal! no argument there!

[Tynskel]

As I said, when you get stuck in, it is a great power. Just doing wounds to multiple unit. *Someone* will fail, and that's a couple wounds there.

It is really silly to think of it as 'only 40%'. Look at Tyranid Guns... most of them don't penestrate armor, so a couple wounds on marines is usually saved. If you hit targets like Centurios, or Terminators, Psychic Scream is painful.

[Deadlift]

This has been interesting reading Daboarder, while I have no intention of playing Nids your review has been a good resource for fighting against them.

[Sly]

I'm liking Psychic Scream a lot.
First of all, in this Codex, AP2 firepower is at a premium.
Second, you would want it on a Flyrant (probably only there), who has the ability to threaten multiple units with it.
Third, on a Flyrant with its SitW, it's a real threat to other Psykers (as stated).

I wouldn't keep it on everything, but with a Flyrant, you want other units with Synapse so that you don't have to limit its mobility. So you're not depending on it for Synapse all that much. Trading it out for Dominion doesn't seem worthwhile.

[daboarder]

Morning all,

Please allow me to address some of the issues you've raised.


the wording in the german ´dex implies it´s worse than Battle Focus - there it says you may "run and then shoot", but no word on the opposite (which we probably need less than the fragile Eldar, but still would have been useful to have...). Is it the same in the english version?

Thank you again tyrendian, I am aware of that, I was trying to say that battle focus has shown how powerful this can be not that it is the same, I see not to much reason to ever be "defensive" with Tranids however (never have) and feel that only being able to run fist is no major drawback for the power. But I'll put it in the notes.


Dude.

Daboarderereererer,
you are totally wrong about Psychic Scream. I have been using Psychic Scream for years now. It was my favorite power in the 5th Edition Codex, and it was improved upon now in the new 6th Codex.

Never gunna hit anything? Bwah? I usually hit 3 units at time!

If you are able to maneuver that zoanthrope or tervigon to hit 3 units with a 6 nova enough game turns to not swap it out for Dominion then good for you, Personally however as I said unless its on a fast psyker (ie the Flying Tyrant) I'd rather have the synapse safety net that is dominion.

Furthermore as the the chances of causiing wounds, it is 2D6, Roughly 50% of the time your rolling 9 (7+2), even against the worst Ld units in the game (US!) your only doing 3-4 wounds half the time you get through a units defenses.

With shriek you have 3D6 the average is a very loose probability curve that peaks at 10.5 (ie you will roll 10 and 11 equally) but is broad enough to reliably spread form 9-12. that is a HUGE difference in the damage output, yes its a directed power not a nova but we are talking about these powers on ALL Tyranid platforms ie: Walking Tyrants, Flying Tyrants, Tervigons, Zoanthropes, and the Swarmlord.

Its not a bad power, but its a pretty niche direct damage weapon in a list full of much needed force multipliers therefore I stand by my initial assessment.


This has been interesting reading Daboarder, while I have no intention of playing Nids your review has been a good resource for fighting against them.

.....Wonderful!

nah, joking aside I'm glad you liked it, after I've done the units I'm thinking about doing an installment on how to look at a nid list, determine its biggest weaknesses and take them apart. Should be good for both Tyranids and others to see how a Tyranid list can most effectively be taken apart.

But that will probably be last, and as a nid player I hope no one I play against read it, cough cough

[Tynskel]

what's shriek got to do with anything Bugs?

And, I would use Dominion on a Tervigon if I rolled that power.
Considering bugs 'converge' on a point (unless people have forgotten completely how to play bugs), there's no reason why you would need to put Dominion on a Walking Tyrant. Keep that Nova Bubble.

Synapse is *not* a force multiplier. What you do with Psychic Scream is you run into the middle of their army, and screaaaaam. The rest of your army pounces on the units that are hurt most by the scream. It is a great end game power. Unless things have gone horribly awry, you want to be in the middle of their army by turn 3ish.

[Halollet]

what's shriek got to do with anything Bugs?

And, I would use Dominion on a Tervigon if I rolled that power.
Considering bugs 'converge' on a point (unless people have forgotten completely how to play bugs), there's no reason why you would need to put Dominion on a Walking Tyrant. Keep that Nova Bubble.

Synapse is *not* a force multiplier. What you do with Psychic Scream is you run into the middle of their army, and screaaaaam. The rest of your army pounces on the units that are hurt most by the scream. It is a great end game power. Unless things have gone horribly awry, you want to be in the middle of their army by turn 3ish.

If your synapse it covered, I might keep the scream on a Tervigon solely for the fact that Line Breaker exists. Something is going to try can get to your side of the board. Having a nuke power in waiting wouldn't be such a bad idea. Also, there are things that like to deep strike on you as well. Remember you can tie up units with gaunts and still Scream them, like the gaunts that the Tervigon keep producing! :)

[daboarder]

what's shriek got to do with anything Bugs?

And, I would use Dominion on a Tervigon if I rolled that power.
Considering bugs 'converge' on a point (unless people have forgotten completely how to play bugs), there's no reason why you would need to put Dominion on a Walking Tyrant. Keep that Nova Bubble.

Synapse is *not* a force multiplier. What you do with Psychic Scream is you run into the middle of their army, and screaaaaam. The rest of your army pounces on the units that are hurt most by the scream. It is a great end game power. Unless things have gone horribly awry, you want to be in the middle of their army by turn 3ish.

I have compared it to shriek as that is what most people reading this will be familiar with, and mechanistically it operates on very similar principles.

Bugs do not HAVE to converge on any point and doing so is likely detrimental to your game play, I mean if you just "converging" how do you deal with enemy skirmish units that out range you (snipers), or opponents who out maneuver you (eldar) or opponents who are able to split their forces and attack you (Pod marines in your back lines)

And finally DOMINION, is a force multiplier, not only does it make that synapse creatures coverage roughly 50% larger, it also means that you have the opportunity to obtain synapse coverage on creatures who wind up outside synapse when parts of your network die. And if you are playing a competent opponent parts of your network WILL die.

Again, please read everything I have said, NOWHERE have I said scream is a bad power, but given a choice of it and dominion I will more often than not take dominion. You are comparing a damage power that is short range and does 1-2 wounds statistically, compared to a power that can prevent the entire army from crumpling.

[Tynskel]

Dominion is useful, I agree, on something like a tervigon. On a Hive Tyrant, no, because that guy should be converging on your enemy.
it does 1-2 wounds statistically *per* target. Hence why you want to be in the middle.

people who spread out their forces are asking to be isolated and destroyed. Snipers? Seriously? You worry about snipers? Throw a barrage of spore mines at them. Boom—dead.

And, no, Synapse is *not* a force multiplier. Here's an example of a force multiplier: Broodlord casts The Horror on a squad. Then the Hive Tyrant Charges, and goes at Initiative. That's a force multiplier. or Harpy charges the same unit that Carnifexes are charging.

You should have enough synapse to be covering your force. It isn't hard to do with bugs. If you are not taking enough synapse, then you really need powers like 'dominion', or the Norn Crown.

[daboarder]

alright Tynskel we're done here,

You've made your position know and I feel that I have more than elaborated upon why on a slow model that can only move 6+D6 a turn (or only 6 if you want to use that power your so fond of) is a bad spot for it.


DOMINION, is a force multiplier, not only does it make that synapse creatures coverage roughly 50% larger, it also means that you have the opportunity to obtain synapse coverage on creatures who wind up outside synapse when parts of your network die. And if you are playing a competent opponent parts of your network WILL die.

[Tynskel]

alright Tynskel we're done here,

You've made your position know and I feel that I have more than elaborated upon why on a slow model that can only move 6+D6 a turn (or only 6 if you want to use that power your so fond of) is a bad spot for it.

your statement is condradictory. you are saying that if your opponents want the synapse dead, they will die. then why not use a power that KILLS instead of does nothing but DIE.


I just find it silly that 'slow' means bad. I don't know what kinda warhammer games you have been playing, but the business is happening for 3-4 turns (aka close combat).

[Maelstorm]

Okay, play nice. ;) Agree to disagree and move forward. :)

@daboarder - I appreciate the thread you've got going - keep it up!

@Tynskel - I appreciate your counterpoint - I like looking at things from another's point of view.

[Tynskel]

Okay, play nice. ;) Agree to disagree and move forward. :)

@daboarder - I appreciate the thread you've got going - keep it up!

@Tynskel - I appreciate your counterpoint - I like looking at things from another's point of view.

grrr. Arf!

[Maelstorm]

Sit Ubu, sit!

[chicop76]

Shriek is better since it's slightly better average damage and can do more out put. However the nids power that's similar shouldn't be written off since you have to consider what models range from leadership 9-10 anyway. Another note the 9 leader ship is usually due to a character that can be dropped if one fielded a deathleaper for example which can lower the highest leadership by D3.

However I still looking at the psyker battle squad lowering leadership to 2 and follow up with psychic shriek, psyker dsl out of vendetta with the elite unite that can 're roll deep strikes.

Once I get a copy i'll 're read and comment on Daborder thoughts. Till than I just say cool ok since he can be making up the rules and I wouldn't know unless I have the book with me.

I am disappointed with the psychic powers since it's the same thing as before, except they are random and a few cost 2 charges. On the bright side I can have warpblast on my tyrants again.

I mean honestly there is only one power that you would really want, while others are ok.

Oh my nid army was gun line at first and did extremely well. I was hoping for EW on synapse, but I guess I have to actually use the big stuff since warriors can be i nstakilled along with Venomthorpes. I don't play Venomthorpes due to seeker missiles.

However you gaunts can give cover saves to hive guard which in turn gives cover to the big stuff.

I agree with Daborder in that you will have to consider range as an option since marines, tau, eldar for example can wipe you out before you can do anything.

[DarkLink]

Psychic Scream is pretty good on a Tyrant, but frankly, if your opponent lets you walk a Psychic Scream across the board to get close enough to actually hit anything significant, odds are your opponent is incompetent or wasn't paying attention.

[Tynskel]

Psychic Scream is pretty good on a Tyrant, but frankly, if your opponent lets you walk a Psychic Scream across the board to get close enough to actually hit anything significant, odds are your opponent is incompetent or wasn't paying attention.

possible, but the job of a bug player is to make them get close to you, as well.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

not a nid player the only models i have are the stealers from my spae hulk game but i always looked at nids as being very similar to orks, which i do have. So me being the orkarboss that i am wonders why you guys don't simply run shooty gaunts with very mininal point upgrades. takine 3-4 of these maxed out units and having them move up the board firing as they go is staggering to face. I know you'll tell me synapse is important but honestly if your investing the points in them and then moving them up turn after turn followed by several skirmish type units then there is alot for an opponent to have to deal with let alone consider.

I would say a list running 1-2 flying tyrants for synapse backed up by1-2 flocks of those pesky gargoyles then let the rest of your list be kitted out hoe ever you please but seriously look at target saturation. if yoru taking 1-2 broods of gargoyles backed up by 3-4 broods of gaunts ontop of the flyrants there i dunno how many players will actually be able to deal with yoru army quickly enough. It's why the green tide is such an annoying and frustrating opponent to deal with. i look at it this way the more boyz you kill then the less shots you had going at other units of mine. the less shots you have at the boyz then the more boyz i have to punch you in the face with when they hit your lines. Not saying i am against the nidzilla lists they seem like they woudl be fun to deal with but honestly i would fear the death by 1000 gribblies more so.

[daboarder]

Fair point romulous, and while you do need to be careful when constructing a tyranid list in the same way you do with an Ork list IE: don't spend points needlessly, the ork philosophy of "boyz before toyz" doesn't hold up the same way for nids, while the philosophy still whas merit it doesn't really work solely on gants without support.

For the same price as a gant an ork gets a S3T4 frame with FC that +1T and the FC (giving S4) meaning that ork boys are able to damage any unit it the game baring a few exceptions and sit at the games central toughness point. Comparatively Gants are only S&T3, now while we can buy them FC and Toxin sacs to overcome the drawbacks of the frame but at that point they are fairly expensive (Note: they aren't BAD, just not cheap)

In order to overcome this we build in our support units and our heavy hitters, relying on the gants to do damage through numbers, screen our more valuable units and tie down the opponents heavy hitters through weight of numbers.

I will be covering my thoughts on nid builds, both generally and with some "component" parts that people can tweek and pug into their own lists if they wish, but not till after I've covered the units themselves.

[Broodingman87]

When you get to Zoanthropes, I'd like you to mention that now that they're Brotherhood of Psykers that now you can keep 2 of them out of line of sight and only expose one and still get 3 Warp Lances. So, while it sucks that one Deny the Witch can stop all three attacks, I think that makes Zoanthropes more servivable.

[Dave Caruana]

People saying tyranids cant compete with tau or eldar or taudar is bollocks....just played a game against 3 riptides, 1 with farsight with him, 2 units of broadsides of I thimk 3 each, 3 units of kroot, a farseer and 2 units of 3 jetbikes... 3 exocrines destroyed a unitnof broadsides and crippled a riptide in 1 turn, 3 crones killed a riptide outright and I tabled him, nids are good, oh and 4 units of 3 warriors neverbgot shot at due to 2 flyrants, 3 crones and 3 exocrines harassing his lines. I like this book!!! Eldar wave serpants could be AV20 I dont care with allnthose haywire missiles I dnt believe we have anything to worry about!! :)

[Halollet]

People saying tyranids cant compete with tau or eldar or taudar is bollocks....just played a game against 3 riptides, 1 with farsight with him, 2 units of broadsides of I thimk 3 each, 3 units of kroot, a farseer and 2 units of 3 jetbikes... 3 exocrines destroyed a unitnof broadsides and crippled a riptide in 1 turn, 3 crones killed a riptide outright and I tabled him, nids are good, oh and 4 units of 3 warriors neverbgot shot at due to 2 flyrants, 3 crones and 3 exocrines harassing his lines. I like this book!!! Eldar wave serpants could be AV20 I dont care with allnthose haywire missiles I dnt believe we have anything to worry about!! :)

*claps* Yay! Hope for my nids that have been in shoe boxes since 4th edition can win again!

And I knew people wouldn't shoot those warriors when they're big bugs around! I knew it!

[Caldera02]

People saying tyranids cant compete with tau or eldar or taudar is bollocks....just played a game against 3 riptides, 1 with farsight with him, 2 units of broadsides of I thimk 3 each, 3 units of kroot, a farseer and 2 units of 3 jetbikes... 3 exocrines destroyed a unitnof broadsides and crippled a riptide in 1 turn, 3 crones killed a riptide outright and I tabled him, nids are good, oh and 4 units of 3 warriors neverbgot shot at due to 2 flyrants, 3 crones and 3 exocrines harassing his lines. I like this book!!! Eldar wave serpants could be AV20 I dont care with allnthose haywire missiles I dnt believe we have anything to worry about!! :)


So you hit and wounded with everything and he failed all his saves? Cause I don't see how you did that otherwise. 3 crones killed a riptide? lulz yea right. I like the new codex but don't make up stuff to make it seem like it's the new shiznit.

[Tynskel]

So you hit and wounded with everything and he failed all his saves? Cause I don't see how you did that otherwise. 3 crones killed a riptide? lulz yea right. I like the new codex but don't make up stuff to make it seem like it's the new shiznit.

(D3+1 Str8 hits + str 6 hit )* 3 = Yeah, even a riptide will struggle.

[Aegwymourn]

(D3+1 Str8 hits + str 6 hit )* 3 = Yeah, even a riptide will struggle.

So on average that is 9 str8 hits and 3 str 6 hits, which transfers to 10 wounds with both wound pools rounding up, which transfers to two failed saves, again rounding in favor of the Riptide taking damage. Less than half of its starting wound pool.

I'm not saying you can't kill a Riptide with them, just unlikely. Anyone expecting to on a regular basis has found an effective way to curse their opponents dice.

[Caldera02]

So on average that is 9 str8 hits and 3 str 6 hits, which transfers to 10 wounds with both wound pools rounding up, which transfers to two failed saves, again rounding in favor of the Riptide taking damage. Less than half of its starting wound pool.

I'm not saying you can't kill a Riptide with them, just unlikely. Anyone expecting to on a regular basis has found an effective way to curse their opponents dice.

Exactly. Thank you. If they were AP2 wounds then we'd be talking a different story but the likelihood of failing that many 2+ saves is not likely at all.

[Sly]

So you hit and wounded with everything and he failed all his saves? Cause I don't see how you did that otherwise. 3 crones killed a riptide? lulz yea right. I like the new codex but don't make up stuff to make it seem like it's the new shiznit.

It could be done by assaulting, given AP2 attacks... though I don't know why you'd risk your Crones like that. If you're doing that well, keep shooting with the Exocrines.

[Tynskel]

It could be done by assaulting, given AP2 attacks... though I don't know why you'd risk your Crones like that. If you're doing that well, keep shooting with the Exocrines.

Well, if the Tau are riptide heavy, it might be better off to charge.

[Broodingman87]

(D3+1 Str8 hits + str 6 hit )* 3 = Yeah, even a riptide will struggle.
Oh cool we want to play mathhammer do we? I do not know the armor save of a Riptide or it's 2 drones but for the sake of argument we'll say the Riptide has a 3+ and the two drones have a 5++. I think we can all agree that is respectable.

So, Vector strike on a crone D3+1 auto-hit at S8 AP3. So let's solve.

3(D3+1) = 9 /2 +3 = 7.5

S8 to majoity T is 4 which wounds on 2+, 2+ on a D6 is 83%

7.5*83%= 6.225

AP 3 to a 3+ Sv is an inveulnerables save that the two drones will take. 5+ on a D6 has a 67% chance to fail.

6.225*67%= 4.17075

Resolve drones destoried and 2.17075 wounds inflicted to Riptide.

Now, the Crones Drool Cannon is 1 auto-hit at S6 AP 4. Because the two attacks happen is different phases the units majority T6. S6 to T6 is 50%

3*50%=1.5

Ap4 to 3+ Sv is a Sv, 3+ has a 33% chance to fail.

1.5*33%= .495

2.17075+.495=2.66575 wounds caused and 3.33425 wounds remain on Riptide.

[Kelshin]

Exactly. Thank you. If they were AP2 wounds then we'd be talking a different story but the likelihood of failing that many 2+ saves is not likely at all.

I have to agree. Not impossible, but if it happened it was the one time anomaly for the next 6 months. Hell, having all three of those alive TO vector strike is not the most common scenario.

[Angelofblades]

@Broodingman87 Riptides are a 2+sv, iirc, they also have a 5+ invul with the possibility for a 3+

[Broodingman87]

@Broodingman87 Riptides are a 2+sv, iirc, they also have a 5+ invul with the possibility for a 3+

Then that just swings the math even more in the Riptide's favor.

[Halollet]

Dude also had 3 exocrines. With that much firepower I would assume that he softened up the riptides before charging in.

[Gleipnir]

Might wanna double check your math since the Majority Toughness for all 3 units is 6 not 4 and who is to say a Riptide would even allow his drones to take the saves for him first when he is capable of using Feel No Pain towards as many attacks as possible. As has been said before though best way to beat a shooting army is with LoS blocking terrain placed strategically during setup, nid won't win rushing across an open field even if from 4 directions at once unless you can restrict sightlines to assault ranges to cause them enough fits to get stuck in.

Vector strike w/ crone

D3+1 hits average 3 hits, one on each model at S8 AP3 against a toughness of 6(2+ to wound) w/ 1 2+ armor save plus 5+ feel no pain and 2 4+ invulnerable save most likely results 1 maybe 2 dead drones and no wounds to the riptide.

Drool Cannon 1 hit only a 50% chance to wound and then still have a 2+ armour save and 5+ feel no pain roll if that fails with 5 wounds result no wounds on average

Hive Crone at best can hope to have caused a leadership test as a result


Oh cool we want to play mathhammer do we? I do not know the armor save of a Riptide or it's 2 drones but for the sake of argument we'll say the Riptide has a 3+ and the two drones have a 5++. I think we can all agree that is respectable.

So, Vector strike on a crone D3+1 auto-hit at S8 AP3. So let's solve.

3(D3+1) = 9 /2 +3 = 7.5

S8 to majoity T is 4 which wounds on 2+, 2+ on a D6 is 83%

7.5*83%= 6.225

AP 3 to a 3+ Sv is an inveulnerables save that the two drones will take. 5+ on a D6 has a 67% chance to fail.

6.225*67%= 4.17075

Resolve drones destoried and 2.17075 wounds inflicted to Riptide.

Now, the Crones Drool Cannon is 1 auto-hit at S6 AP 4. Because the two attacks happen is different phases the units majority T6. S6 to T6 is 50%

3*50%=1.5

Ap4 to 3+ Sv is a Sv, 3+ has a 33% chance to fail.

1.5*33%= .495

2.17075+.495=2.66575 wounds caused and 3.33425 wounds remain on Riptide.

[daboarder]

Moving things back on track....

NB: I've was advised to split each post into a look at each individual unit entry therefore from here out that's what we will be doing.

HQ's:
Hive Tyrant:
So this is basically the quintessential Tyranid HQ, and as a MC with a good save, access to good weaponry and 2 rolls on the nid psychic powers, your kinda hard pressed to look at other HQ's.

Personally I find that Hive Tyrants normally need very little in the way of upgrades to make them work, give them the specific tools to let them do their jobs and then fire 'em and forget. There are 3 main categories of hive tyrant really and they can be thought of as the Fast kind, the cheap kind and the Brick. Also it is important to understand that how you run your tyrants (builds and numbers) is going to have a fundamental effect on your list, in fact in many ways your list will always need to be built around your tyrants. With that in mind this one's going to be a little big.


FAST:
The fast ones are the ones with wings, they come in their own 2 flavours, they all however have wings.

Cheap and cheerful with dual dev's for what is probably the most damage intensive build in the book. we know this one, its survivable and is one of our best anti air units. There's not much to say about this that hasn't been said for the last 3-4 years, he got a little cheaper, and a little softer again but he's a solid choice.

The other type of fast gribbly is the combat version. For these I recommend spending a few more points and picking up some much needed upgrades.
Firstly, Adrenal glands are a must for this build, being able to jump 12 in the movement phase and still get re-rolls on your charge and Hammer of Wrath is hilariously awesome. The S7 is nice too. If you want to keep this unit cheap (in which case you're probably better off with twin devs) you can leave it at that, but I'd grab the Lash whip and Bonesword, mostly for the +3 I making your tyrant I8 in combat, and the toxin sacs, which for a modest price mean you can re-roll to wound.

If you really want to splurge there is also the thorax biomorphs, but personally if you're going to use that you're already well within reliable charge range, also, consider the maw-claws as a potential upgrade to your scything talons (see above). Personally I wouldn't buy these last two on a flying tyrant as I feel they get too expensive for their survivability.

EDIT: Another potential build is to take the Miasma Cannon and a thorax swarm, drop a pair of nasty templates on a unit and charge in with a tyrant, which at the end of the day is still a hive tyrant.

CHEAP
Next up we have the cheap kind....Or cheaper, these guys run solo with minimal upgrades (Always one of the heavy cannons minimum) and operate as a localised synapse and psychic node. they exist in lists that has plenty of other fast units or other heavy hitters that force the opponent to ignore them in favour of more obvious threats.

Venom cannons and Strangle thorns are both good guns, a S6 large pinning blast, or a S9 blast (that no longer suffers ill effects shooting at a tank). Also consider the Miasma Cannon relic combined with one of the other two, throwing out 2 long range shots a turn and a template in close.

Another potential build is the cheap combat build, just give him Adrenal glands and run him along with your Carnistar, Hormagaunts, or other fast combat units. It's relatively cheap and throws out up to two buffs or de-buffs a turn.

BRICK
Finally we have the Bricks builds. Buy Tyrant Guard.
Honestly though this build is a rock, its slow and expensive, the question you then have to ask yourself is, does it do enough for the army and hurt the enemy enough that its points are justified? As to the number of guard and their loadouts, I'll discuss this more in depth when I look at their entry as it covers both brick tyrants and the Swarmlord.

The first thing I should say is, NO, do not buy the Norn crown and rely on this build as your main synapse, even IF you have a pair of guard (or heaven forbid drop the points on 3) you will die, even my chaos army (which is mostly for fun) can drop enough plasma into this thing to wipe it off the board in a turn. And if you have only 1-2 other synapse units I can just kill them next turn. Not to mention that for the price of the Crown you can buy most of a whole other synapse creature, one that comes with 2 more psychic powers and a 3++ save.

That being said, if you don't spend an inordinate number of points on these (Norn crown and Ymgarl upgrade) they most certainly have their place.

Consider running the Tyrant in a similar style to the "cheaper" builds and tailor your tyrant guard to match, if you're running a shooting Tyrant then use naked guard, if however you run the cheaper combat tyrant then feel free to run the guard with glands, just don't spend too many points trying to make this a generalist brick, give it a role and leave it at that.

Keep them central and use them to anchor the heart of your swarm, just be aware that if you opponent wants them dead they will die so ensure other units in your list are able to cover the roles filled by this unit (MC combat, Long range fire and synapse.)

NB: If you are running a brick, make it your warlord and seriously consider the Command traits, they offer some very nice AoE buffs and a proper Tyranid list should be able to make use of every roll on the chart. (even the lowest Ld roll is good when combined with SitW to make psyker units crap themselves and run)

REGEN I'll put this in its own, I think its only really worth it on the brick, because the unit has the same save and the Tyrant auto passes LOS! stick the tyrant up front, use him to tank the wounds, even better if you have FnP you can tank almost anything with this thing and only after you've taken say 2 wounds start passing them onto the guard at will. That IS a very hard unit to shift and even better reliably heals itself at the end of your turn. Shift the Guards around at the end of the turn for extra funny

NEXT: Swarmlord, He really deserves his own entry.

[Tynskel]

overall, not bad.

The Brick isn't too slow if you buy her Adrenal Glands. Doesn't Fleet allow a re-roll on Run? Just remember to buy Adrenal Glands (why would you not buy adrenals on any large creature but the crone?) on your Tyrant Guard—might as well pick up toxin sacs on 'em, too.

Now, I have been thinking about some sort of Thorax Weapon, and then Bonesword/Lash + Super Rending Claws. Sounds Counter Intuitive, but that first round of combat gaining Preferred Enemy is not a bad idea.

I have also been thinking Regeneration is worth while... but I am hesitant...

[daboarder]

Fleet does indeed buy a re-roll on run, but if your running your not shooting and if your not shooting why are you not running wings? at least thats my thoughts on the matter.

The brick doen't make a very good combat unit, for similar points you can get paired carnies with almost any loadout or other more useful and faster monsters

also, yes forgot regen, its got possibilities.

[Tynskel]

I understand your thoughts on this...

however, running is how you get a walking tyrant into Nova range. I think you may have forgotten that Psychic Scream, in the *old* codex, was my favorite power...

I tend to use the Walking Tyrant as a Rook. I will flank it with Carnifexes (and now possibly a Haruspex). Just a wall of thunder running up. Use everything else to shoot.

[daboarder]

I understand your thoughts on this...

however, running is how you get a walking tyrant into Nova range. I think you may have forgotten that Psychic Scream, in the *old* codex, was my favorite power...

I tend to use the Walking Tyrant as a Rook. I will flank it with Carnifexes (and now possibly a Haruspex). Just a wall of thunder running up. Use everything else to shoot.

well you can't rely on picking up scream these days, I wouldn't really spend the 25 pts to buy your star fleet for the 1/3 games you DO roll it. (15 on tyrant, 5 each guard) I mean you can, its got possibilities but their are harder hitting, faster units in the book for that role.

[Tynskel]

well you can't rely on picking up scream these days, I wouldn't really spend the 25 pts to buy your star fleet for the 1/3 games you DO roll it. (15 on tyrant, 5 each guard) I mean you can, its got possibilities but their are harder hitting, faster units in the book for that role.

Oh, I only meant the Psychic Scream reference meaning that I like my tyrant to run up rather than shoot...
And, what I was driving at is that the army hits together, not piecemeal...

And again, why would you *not* buy fleet? In the end game, the Tyranid biggies still rock in close combat, and are safer in close combat. Sooooo, getting into close combat is imperative.

[DWest]

One quibble: you mentioned both the Maw Claws and the Miasma Cannon for a Monstrous Creature, then later on mentioned buying the "MC" for the Tyrant. I figured it out eventually from context, but it's getting a bit hard to follow.

[Tynskel]

One quibble: you mentioned both the Maw Claws and the Miasma Cannon for a Monstrous Creature, then later on mentioned buying the "MC" for the Tyrant. I figured it out eventually from context, but it's getting a bit hard to follow.

heheh, what? You want acronyms to be defined, then used consistently?

[daboarder]

One quibble: you mentioned both the Maw Claws and the Miasma Cannon for a Monstrous Creature, then later on mentioned buying the "MC" for the Tyrant. I figured it out eventually from context, but it's getting a bit hard to follow.

Tynskels attempt at homour aside, I'll fix that.

[Killermonkey]

I excited for your review of the flyers as I am working on a list using 2 (minimum) of them with flyrants and thinking it could be a fearsome flanking force. Anyway, good work so far and keep it up!

[daboarder]

Honestly stuff the fliers, I've just had an epiphany concerning Ad glands Gargoyles.....those things are just murderous LIGHTNING on the table.

I think I'll be running 40 of them in 2x20.......

[Broodingman87]

Honestly stuff the fliers, I've just had an epiphany concerning Ad glands Gargoyles.....those things are just murderous LIGHTNING on the table.

I think I'll be running 40 of them in 2x20.......

Yeah while Haywire missiles are cool, what I'm looking at for Fast Attack is Swordsman Shrikes. I think the grenades on shrikes will make thems just deadly.

[daboarder]

Nah, 5+ save, WAY to expensive, 20 gargoyles moving 12 and charging 2D6 with a re-roll at S4, goodbye transports.

the thing with 2D6 is that while it only increases the "average" by 1.5 inches it completely skews the probability curve, because you can choose each dice you re-roll you have a tail on you probability, it means your not only to less likely too fail you short range charges by rolling two low results, it means that the probability of all the larger results is also higher. You roll a 6 and a 2 on your first roll? but need 9 or 10, keep the 6 and re-roll the single die, MEAN!

[OdBoX]

I'm not trying to poke holes in your theory/plan but how would you keep them in synapse consistently, or at least until they are deposited on your opponents doorstep? Slow Zoanthropes for first turn or two then get into range of the harrassing flyrant?

[daboarder]

flyrant

12"-18" is a HUGE area

[Broodingman87]

flyrant

12"-18" is a HUGE area

That's also a huge target, which is why ing doing with the shrikes, smaller model = easier to hide.

[daboarder]

Theres also zoan thropez and dominions tervigons and a walkrant. Plus tailing the gargs helps

[Tyrendian]

something I just noticed (may be common knowledge for you all though...): you don´t have to test for IB if you´ve Gone to Ground... can you do that without being shot at? because that would then at least lessen the pressure to keep Synapse on your backfield objective grabber gants... they´ll still run away from a stiff breeze without Fearless though of course, but that fact doesn´t make Cultists useless does it?...

[Dave Caruana]

For the previous argument, yes I gave the riptide 3 wounds from 1 exocrine, then vectorstriked him with 3 crones and he fell, call it luck, butbhey 1s do exist and they can come up!! That aside tjough, I seriously disagree with any1 who mocks our fkiers, even in 5th edition when I proxied my trygons as harpies, I used 3 with 2 flyrants, I harassed alot, they are good and they dont get instagibbed just cos theyre t5, put ground units like exocrines firing ap2 large blasts (which are the equivalent of my 3 tervis in 5th ed breeding gaunts around objectives), have ur flyrants walk together in the middle of the table with the crones in front of them so as to give them a cover save aside from their 3+ save and ull see how nooo one wud concentrate fire on a 5 wound fmc when there are 2 more like it, and those exocrines are hurting everything they shoot at besides wraithknights and land raiders!!! Wave serpants are easy meat for crones, helldrakes, I killed 1 with 1 vector strike (got a 5 and a 6, 2 pens, then rolled a 6, but hey it can happen, u roll weapon destroyed, good, no more flamer, immobilzed, good he cant slow down or zoom out of the table, these all make ur opponent lose shots, save ur army wounds and in doing so hurting ur opponent more) Guys, id seriously starting buying more exocrines, u could potentially have 18 s7 ap2 in 1 army!!!!at bs4!!!! 12 haywire missiles at 36" range!!!! Oh and that vector strike at s8 ap3 cud be the bane of wraithknights!! Vector strike with 3 and ull down 1 wraithknight on average, then fire 3 tentaclids on 1 wave serpant, u shud on average get 2 hullpoints on 1 wave serpant and down a wraithknightin 1 turn, from a total of 465pts on ur armylist, not bad id say....

[Dave Caruana]

Oh and if u get that warlord trait where u lower the cover save by 1 to a terrain piece, hey well thats less cover save when u ap2 large bkast a unit in cover (unless its an aegis defence line, but hey if he wants to put everything in a small area with all those blasts and templates ive got, so be it ;)

[Tyrendian]

For the previous argument, yes I gave the riptide 3 wounds from 1 exocrine, then vectorstriked him with 3 crones and he fell, call it luck, butbhey 1s do exist and they can come up!! That aside tjough, I seriously disagree with any1 who mocks our fkiers, even in 5th edition when I proxied my trygons as harpies, I used 3 with 2 flyrants, I harassed alot, they are good and they dont get instagibbed just cos theyre t5, put ground units like exocrines firing ap2 large blasts (which are the equivalent of my 3 tervis in 5th ed breeding gaunts around objectives), have ur flyrants walk together in the middle of the table with the crones in front of them so as to give them a cover save aside from their 3+ save and ull see how nooo one wud concentrate fire on a 5 wound fmc when there are 2 more like it, and those exocrines are hurting everything they shoot at besides wraithknights and land raiders!!! Wave serpants are easy meat for crones, helldrakes, I killed 1 with 1 vector strike (got a 5 and a 6, 2 pens, then rolled a 6, but hey it can happen, u roll weapon destroyed, good, no more flamer, immobilzed, good he cant slow down or zoom out of the table, these all make ur opponent lose shots, save ur army wounds and in doing so hurting ur opponent more) Guys, id seriously starting buying more exocrines, u could potentially have 18 s7 ap2 in 1 army!!!!at bs4!!!! 12 haywire missiles at 36" range!!!! Oh and that vector strike at s8 ap3 cud be the bane of wraithknights!! Vector strike with 3 and ull down 1 wraithknight on average, then fire 3 tentaclids on 1 wave serpant, u shud on average get 2 hullpoints on 1 wave serpant and down a wraithknightin 1 turn, from a total of 465pts on ur armylist, not bad id say....

you really have some weird math... 3 Vector Strikes means an average 9 hits, or 4.5 wounds - you´d need quite some luck to kill a wraithknight in one turn, provided your opponent is kind enough to put the thing square in the way of your three crones in the first place, which with the mobility a wraithknight has is less than likely... and you don´t even get a single hull point on average on a Wave Serpent with three Tentaclids...
also, your Flying Bug Wing is 925pts minimum, or half your army in five models, three of which aren´t all that tough (heck they almost die to a single Fire Warrior squad rapid-firing you when you´re grounded by their markerlights...), none of which score, and the tyrants will have a hard time being relevant while trying to provide synapse to your other bugs...
and three Exocrines (which I also do like, no argument there!) means no Biovores, no Fexes (Carni or Tyranno, both of which are decent enough), no Trygons...

[Dave Caruana]

So if u take carnifexs or a trygon which goes surprise! In front of sme fire warriors, ur still not going to do much! :P atleast he has to ground these mcs before he can really hurt them :) and no I not sure ur right, if u hit the wave serpant, on a 2+ u glance=1 hull point, if u pen on a 6 even better, if u roll a 1, then tough luck, suck it. If u fire 3 missiles, hitting on 4s, its 50/50 for each, now with my roles id normally hit with 2 :P then I just musnt roll a 1, which is pretty good probability and u can vector strike them if ur in range, so thats another plus from crones. As for the wraithknight, it has an armour save of 3+, t8 ur vector strikes are s8 ap3, u wound him on a 4+ with the crones, while on a 5+ with the exocrines and no armour save, I dont see why hed be a problem, now I normally play against people with 3 of them, so id probably just ignore them and try kill the wave serpants first, but atleast now we have an option to kill them. Yes 2 flyrants, 3 crones and 3 exocrines, come to 1435pts, but dont u think theyre well spent on 8mcs, 5 are hit on 6s the other 3 have t6 w5 3+ and..well..u know the rest about them, then 2 units of 3 warriors and 40 gants....thats alot of targets!

[Dave Caruana]

Oh, and if he shot his markerlighgs on me, grounded me then fired his fire warriors on 1 crone, (still have 2 left) id say thats pretty good target saturation wudnt u say? ;)

[Tyrendian]

So if u take carnifexs or a trygon which goes surprise! In front of sme fire warriors, ur still not going to do much! :P atleast he has to ground these mcs before he can really hurt them :) and no I not sure ur right, if u hit the wave serpant, on a 2+ u glance=1 hull point, if u pen on a 6 even better, if u roll a 1, then tough luck, suck it. If u fire 3 missiles, hitting on 4s, its 50/50 for each, now with my roles id normally hit with 2 :P then I just musnt roll a 1, which is pretty good probability and u can vector strike them if ur in range, so thats another plus from crones. As for the wraithknight, it has an armour save of 3+, t8 ur vector strikes are s8 ap3, u wound him on a 4+ with the crones, while on a 5+ with the exocrines and no armour save, I dont see why hed be a problem, now I normally play against people with 3 of them, so id probably just ignore them and try kill the wave serpants first, but atleast now we have an option to kill them. Yes 2 flyrants, 3 crones and 3 exocrines, come to 1435pts, but dont u think theyre well spent on 8mcs, 5 are hit on 6s the other 3 have t6 w5 3+ and..well..u know the rest about them, then 2 units of 3 warriors and 40 gants....thats alot of targets!

you know, a trio of MissileSides will pretty much kill a Crone without any kind of Markerlight support or you being grounded... so there goes number two...
I really don´t see you getting off more than one vector strike against a wraithknight a turn, two at most, barring stupid opponents, and an Exocrine will do a single wound on average to one (bit more if it stayed still, but then why should the Wraithknight be in its range? again barring stupid opponents...)
now off course Wraithknights are among the tougher and more mobile cookies out there - against Riptides the Crone is pretty much completely irrelevant while the Exocrine suddenly becomes much better...
and it´s not like Tentaclids ignore cover or anything, so that Serpent will have a 4+ cover save against my one or your two glances (and the probability of a pen goes way under 5% should its shield still be up...)
Oh, and your six warriors will hardly survive more than a turn of dedicated attention (barring some very conveniently placed LoS blocking terrain - then the enemy will need some serious mobility to get at them admittedly), after which your gants are more or less a writeoff and you´re left with the task of tabling your opponent... luckily Exocrines are not all that vulnerable to IB though - at least they´ll still shoot something not matter what, even if that´s not what you wanted them to shoot...
so yes Exocrines do have potential - as I said I like them myself. I´m just not convinced of going overboard on them - much less on Crones...

[chicop76]

I agree with Mr. MIDDLE Finger. I play Tau and dealing with a bunch of flying daemons I really wouldn't be sacred of a bunch of flying bugs which happen to be far easier to kill. It's not even being grounded by marker lights. It's also the increased bs that gives the army virtual sky fire and seeker missiles up the flyers butt.

Heck if I wanted to instant kill them all I need to do is take dark angel allies., but why would I bother since most of my Tau list would blow away most of your flyers anyway.

I am more worried about deep striking trygon than flying tyrants.

[Tyrendian]

then again, there aren´t many armies out there that can typically shoot a Wraithknight to death in one turn - DE with their buckload of poison, Tau with... well being themselves really..., Marines with Grav - so that´s not really something to be ashamed of as Nids... the real problem is we also lack good melee answers, with Carnifexes pretty much never catching it and most other things getting their behind handed to them just by virtue of vastly superior S and T...

[BENDER]

Is it possible to make Deathleaper join a unit of Carnifexes? If that´s possible, would Deathleaper give them all the tasty stuff like stalth and infiltrate and "where is it?"
If that´s correct I think I´ve found gold in a pile of crap jaja

[Tyrendian]

nope - he isn´t an IC

[BENDER]

No, he isn´t, you´re right xD

[chicop76]

Daemons can shoot and kill a wraithknight, it depends on the Daemon build and die rolls and if you want to possibly give it fnp.

Ig can too. I for one take a lot of lascannons.

Don't forget Eldar too.

Anyway my 4th edition nids would be easily able to handle that. I really, really, really would like to get my hands on the new codex. The only viable thing I can think off really is poison gaunts and homagaunts tearing it down, would be hard to catch him though. If gargoyles can have poison attacks than there you go.

[Tyrendian]

The only viable thing I can think off really is poison gaunts and homagaunts tearing it down, would be hard to catch him though. If gargoyles can have poison attacks than there you go.
works - poison Gargs are 8pts a pop though, so a full unit costs as much as the Wraithknight...

[Halollet]

Daemons can shoot and kill a wraithknight, it depends on the Daemon build and die rolls and if you want to possibly give it fnp.

Ig can too. I for one take a lot of lascannons.

Don't forget Eldar too.

Anyway my 4th edition nids would be easily able to handle that. I really, really, really would like to get my hands on the new codex. The only viable thing I can think off really is poison gaunts and homagaunts tearing it down, would be hard to catch him though. If gargoyles can have poison attacks than there you go.

Actually some naked Gargoyles would be able to tar pit it as long as you had synapse. They have a poison attack that blinds and if the WK fails one ini test then its hitting those flys on a 5+ which is hilarious! That will allow time for you to get 2 fexes into combat with it and eat the thing!

Dang... now I want me some gargoyles cause that's awesome!

[Tynskel]

Yes, Gargoyles, in my opinion, are better than before. You don't have to have everyone do the Venom attack, and toxin sacs are still worth while. Adrenals are important for those re-roll assault moves...

[Tyrendian]

Yes, Gargoyles, in my opinion, are better than before. You don't have to have everyone do the Venom attack, and toxin sacs are still worth while. Adrenals are important for those re-roll assault moves...

at which point they´re suddenly more expensive than Fire Warriors... not quite sure that´s worth it, but even naked they´re still fine, just don´t do as much damage as with the old Blinding Venom

[iNcontroL]

better than before? The blinding venom no longer auto hits on 6 and their upgrades got more expensive >_< They are still GOOD because they can actually blind but they are more expensive and do less wounds :(

[Dave Caruana]

You guys are right, but then again, our new codex doesntbhave much better access to destroy a wraithknight, I mean a trygon comes up, hello broadsides, and bye bye trygon...plus ur all giving scenarios where u might kill A wraithknight, what if u have to face 3!! In my meta theres lots of power gaming and most ppl play 3 of them, then 3, 4 wave serpants with warriors inside (dno the names but basically a unit of the 1s with s8 ap1 guns I believe and the rest troops and a farseer) so unless you guys can mention something that can hit the wave serpants harder than a 4+ to hit 2+ glance from anywhere within 36" range, please tell me. A unit of gargoyles for the wraithknight? 1 shot wonder as soon as they learn what it does, it will never work for you again, as they wont live after turn 2 when ppl learn what a tarpit they can be, id rather just get 2more units of 30 gants as basicas ever and just leave them in combat with him while he kills 5 per turn...fexs will never reach the enemies battlelines no matter how cheap they are...trygons will die, even tho theyre toughness 6 vs all those waveserpants and wraiyhknights...so no, there arent much better choices to kill wave serpants than tentaclid missiles

[Dave Caruana]

If u have cover and do save good for you, but I have 12 tentaclid missiles, until I charge you, because tbh never seen any eldar players using eldar flyers, ever over here so all those missiles are dedicated to wave serpants, until I charge them, plus the dakka flyrants...until turn 2 he might drop 1, maaaaybe 2 crones, but hey u cant expect to not take damage, by that time my exocrines would be in the middle of the table, within range of everything on his side of the table....

[Tyrendian]

You guys are right, but then again, our new codex doesntbhave much better access to destroy a wraithknight, I mean a trygon comes up, hello broadsides, and bye bye trygon...plus ur all giving scenarios where u might kill A wraithknight, what if u have to face 3!!

hey it´s you that started that... :p I was just running the numbers on your ideas, and they didn´t work out sadly...


If u have cover and do save good for you, but I have 12 tentaclid missiles
yeah like you´ll ever get to fire them all, at one or two per turn... and those 12 Tentaclids are still only 2.5 hull points off a moving WS with Holo Fields
now there are obviously going to be cases where the dice gods decide to treat you to a destroyed Wave Serpent with one turn of shooting, the problem is just that you really can´t count on it with Crones alone


until I charge you
that, on the other hand, is how it´s done against Serpents - though it won´t be easy to get there in the first place, it is doable and probably your best shot... but even then you are trading 1 for 1 at best, since whatever was inside that Serpent is probably gonna roast your Crone next turn, or a Wraithknight will cast a sly look at it...

[Dave Caruana]

Hehe yep I guess I did, but most ppl I play dont move them much since they wont be able tofire both weapons, so if he does move atleast hed lose 1 weapon :D, ye thats the problem with charging :/ eldar are just too op...I mean u play 3 wraithknights and the rest of your points are on wave serpants and troops and a farseer, here, come at me...thats just boring imho....

[Broodingman87]

hey it´s you that started that... :p I was just running the numbers on your ideas, and they didn´t work out sadly...

yeah like you´ll ever get to fire them all, at one or two per turn... and those 12 Tentaclids are still only 2.5 hull points off a moving WS with Holo Fields
now there are obviously going to be cases where the dice gods decide to treat you to a destroyed Wave Serpent with one turn of shooting, the problem is just that you really can´t count on it with Crones alone

that, on the other hand, is how it´s done against Serpents - though it won´t be easy to get there in the first place, it is doable and probably your best shot... but even then you are trading 1 for 1 at best, since whatever was inside that Serpent is probably gonna roast your Crone next turn, or a Wraithknight will cast a sly look at it...

Carnifexes counter Wraiths really nicely, The Crone is build to counter battletanks and flyers, don't waste them of Wave Serpents and use them on the Falcon/Fire Prism. Forget the Rhino kill the Landraider/Predator, don't shot the Chimera kill the Laman Russ/Baselisk, And for god sakes kill the Stormraven!

The counter to transport has/is/ and will be the Hive Guard.

[chicop76]

Actually some naked Gargoyles would be able to tar pit it as long as you had synapse. They have a poison attack that blinds and if the WK fails one ini test then its hitting those flys on a 5+ which is hilarious! That will allow time for you to get 2 fexes into combat with it and eat the thing!

Dang... now I want me some gargoyles cause that's awesome!

Interesting. I am gonna pull out dem old harpy wings and convert some gargoyles. The tarpiting is actually a better ideal. I wouldn't worry about trying to finish the knight since he wouldn't be able to wipe out the unit anyway. The blind on them makes them a bit more attractive, now if you have some concussive weapons you are really working with something.

I done Tau vs Eldar and at best I can glance death 3 serpents a turn, and that's with 2 tides, 3 railsides, skyray, 30 sniper kroot, 6 missile drones, 4 melta and a hammer head with the special character. Not to mention I am stripping cover saves and have tank hunter on my sides and missile drones.

Only time I reliably took out the serpents is when my Riptides finally got close enough to smash them, objectives helps and extra 4d6 movement.

The reason why I won was simply due to him not being able to kill my gtg broadsides with commander, he did take out half the unit though.

I play a lot of armies and nids is one of them. Nids is my second favorite army and I still fail to really see how they can beat armies like Tau on equal terms. Not saying they can not win. Just saying with Tau I find nids an easy win and as a nid player I find Tau a challenge to beat. Almost like dark eldar where you either win by a lot or lose rather badly.

In other words I can possibly go undefeated with Tau and Daemons. I just don't see it with nids.

With the lost of iron arm and synapse still doesn't give EW. You have to rely on cheap MCs and cheap bugs to win the day. Problem is tournament play is timed which hurts nids even more.

[Broodingman87]

Hehe yep I guess I did, but most ppl I play dont move them much since they wont be able tofire both weapons, so if he does move atleast hed lose 1 weapon :D, ye thats the problem with charging :/ eldar are just too op...I mean u play 3 wraithknights and the rest of your points are on wave serpants and troops and a farseer, here, come at me...thats just boring imho....

Well if he's entrenching, so him the power of the Mawloc. Warning seimic disturbance detected, Mawloc inbound!

[Dave Caruana]

With the mawloc you hit side armour 12, which means u glance on 6, which means u wont destroy it, which means ull have a mishap and thats on turn 3....id love something butni cant really find anything...other than zoanthropes, hive tyrant with h.venom cannon, hive guard with shock cannon are identical to crones only with 18" range and t6 but theyre on the ground so reach them later than crones, therefore habe more turns getting shot at....I really dont see anything better than zoanthropes or a flyrant picking up warp blast and crones in the book, second come h.venom cannons at s9 blast and rupture cannon, but at bs3 and 2 shots u glance on 2s and oen on 3s so that cud be an option...3 tyrannofexs instead of s7ap2 exocrines....not so sure about that!

[Broodingman87]

With the mawloc you hit side armour 12, which means u glance on 6, which means u wont destroy it, which means ull have a mishap and thats on turn 3....id love something butni cant really find anything...other than zoanthropes, hive tyrant with h.venom cannon, hive guard with shock cannon are identical to crones only with 18" range and t6 but theyre on the ground so reach them later than crones, therefore habe more turns getting shot at....I really dont see anything better than zoanthropes or a flyrant picking up warp blast and crones in the book, second come h.venom cannons at s9 blast and rupture cannon, but at bs3 and 2 shots u glance on 2s and oen on 3s so that cud be an option...3 tyrannofexs instead of s7ap2 exocrines....not so sure about that!

Why would you aim a Mawloc at a vehicle? they're for Infantry (and heavy infantry at that) you should be using to own the Guardian around the wave serpents.

[chicop76]

If the vehicle has side armour 10 than it is viable. Anyway since warp blast is a 1/6 chance of getting I wouldn't rely on it. That would be like daemons relying on the strength 8 lance shot they can get, which is easier to get over warp blast and better.

I would say i have to look at the codex to give a solution , but I don't see any so far online.

[Broodingman87]

If the vehicle has side armour 10 than it is viable. Anyway since warp blast is a 1/6 chance of getting I wouldn't rely on it. That would be like daemons relying on the strength 8 lance shot they can get, which is easier to get over warp blast and better.

I would say i have to look at the codex to give a solution , but I don't see any so far online.

Wo if the problem is a tanks why now you old fashioned Hiveguard, 1 shot each will hit, you penetrate on a 5+, it'll ignore the jink save and you don't even need to see the tank which means he can't see you.

[chicop76]

Assuming they are the same with worst bs than I would say they are your best option vs serpent spam. Run them behind a MC, terrain blocking los, or with a Venomthorpe. Personally I would have them behind gaunts and them in front of MCs. Give gaunts feel no pain and your whole army have cover saves while the front units have fnp.

Still however they won't easily kill serpent spam since they can only really still glance kill. I think two units of the can take out one serpent reliably.

[Broodingman87]

Assuming they are the same with worst bs than I would say they are your best option vs serpent spam. Run them behind a MC, terrain blocking los, or with a Venomthorpe. Personally I would have them behind gaunts and them in front of MCs. Give gaunts feel no pain and your whole army have cover saves while the front units have fnp.

Still however they won't easily kill serpent spam since they can only really still glance kill. I think two units of the can take out one serpent reliably.

We'll they did get nerf but I think that's to balance now they ignore all cover, they use to ignore only special rule saves like Jink and KFF, that's a huge buff.

so, I think that makes up for the 5 point and the 1 BS.

[Dave Caruana]

What about impaler cannon or shock cannon which is haywire but 18"??

[Broodingman87]

What about impaler cannon or shock cannon which is haywire but 18"??

Use the tried and true Impaler cannon, the Shock cannon is better for AV14.

[Tyrendian]

and the Impaler is better against pretty much any non-vehicle... except maybe clumped-up Guardsmen out of cover, but if it´s come to your Hiveguard shooting that something somewhere went horribly wrong...

[BENDER]

What do you guys think about this 1850 build?

CG

Flyrant:
Wings, 2xbrainleech

Flyrant
Wings, 2xbrainleech

Elite

3 Zoantropes

3 Zoantropes

2 Venomtropes

Troops

30 Termagants

30 Termagants

Tervigon

Heavy Support

Mawlock

Mawlock

Mawlock

Fortifications

Aegis defence line with Comstat Station


Tactics:

Push the table-center with the gants, zoans shooting and venonthropes giving cover
Flyrants cover flanks
Sit the mom in the Aeguis and pop gants
Mawlocks eat
Thats all xD

[Tynskel]

maybe put it in the Army lists...

[Broodingman87]

and the Impaler is better against pretty much any non-vehicle... except maybe clumped-up Guardsmen out of cover, but if it´s come to your Hiveguard shooting that something somewhere went horribly wrong...

Yeah but, If I'm running nidzilla, I'm shooting the Hive Guard at those damnable sniper scouts.

[daboarder]

take a different unit then, like s tyrannofex with the spax and shredders.

[Broodingman87]

take a different unit then, like s tyrannofex with the spax and shredders.

I don't think sending a Haraspex at scouts would be wise, one well placed Acid spray would the just as quickly, of course Acid spray has a shorter range than the Impaler cannon so that's another turn of 4+ wounds.

[Tyrendian]

I don't think sending a Haraspex at scouts would be wise, one well placed Acid spray would the just as quickly, of course Acid spray has a shorter range than the Impaler cannon so that's another turn of 4+ wounds.

the range on a Torrent flamer is not that much shorter than the 24" impaler... depending on availability of terrain (which I´d assume the Scouts will kinda want to use...) you just might even be able to flame them first turn, although that´s admittedly unlikely

[chicop76]

the range on a Torrent flamer is not that much shorter than the 24" impaler... depending on availability of terrain (which I´d assume the Scouts will kinda want to use...) you just might even be able to flame them first turn, although that´s admittedly unlikely

If they are dumb enough to deploy 18" away from it, than yes, or not know you can do that.

[Broodingman87]

If they are dumb enough to deploy 18" away from it, than yes, or not know you can do that.


Yeah but, the T-fex has a 26" threat range and that's the no man's land of deployment and in my local meta they like to infiltrate them.

[chicop76]

Yeah but, the T-fex has a 26" threat range and that's the no man's land of deployment and in my local meta they like to infiltrate them.

I always infiltrate so you don't know where they will be, but I don't always put them as close as possible and may deploy them in my deployment zone.

[Lord Aaron]

ya I had great success with infiltrating em. (but only 2 games so far)

[AlmostMercury]

First, Daboarder, thank you for this thread.

Second, what exactly is being infiltrated? Not Tyrannofexes, I hope.

[chicop76]

Sniper type models.

[daboarder]

First, Daboarder, thank you for this thread.

Second, what exactly is being infiltrated? Not Tyrannofexes, I hope.

no worries mate, I've been stuck writing up my thesis, but this thread will continue.

[daboarder]

Swarmlord: The big daddy himself.

I'm going to break my rule about comparing this guy to the last codex here, but I think a point about swarmy and why people did take him compared to why they SHOULD have been taking him (and should still consider him) needs to be made.

Swarmlord USED to force opponents to re-roll their succesful invulnerable saves in combat, this combined with 4 power Biomancy, Lashwhip guard (making enemies I1) and his ID blades of Doom, meant that he was the premier combat character in the game, even able to go toe to toe with the Arch heretic himself when used in 30k games (Yes Swarmlord used to be able to take Horus down solo, he was that much of a mean mother****er).

Now that's not to say he was OP, his lack of 2+ armour and range invulnerable save, combined with his incredible slowness has always meant that he typically didn't get into combat before T3-4 and therefore his absolute brutality was fair enough.

Now, Swarmlord has fallen far, far from grace, but I don't think he has fallen so far as to be unviable, see the thing about Swarmlord, in my opinion, is that he has never been about what he roflstomps in an opponent's army, it's about what he does to the army to make it dangerous deadly and a pain to deal with on the table.
Swarmlord is the best force multiplier available to the Tyranids, lets break down what each buff he give the army as a whole is.

1) 18 synapse warlord, pretty obvious, his wide synapse area (combined with dominion if desired) means that straight off the bat he has a reliable synapse range comparable to a Norn crown tyrant. and given the debilitating effects of IB this is a good thing.

2) He is the toughest warlord we have, at 5 wounds he is more comparable in "class" to a trygon, tervigon, or one of the new bugs. not only does it mean that his army buffs are going to be around longer, it also means that you are denying the enemy easy access to a VP for slay the warlord.

3) ML3: Ok he doesn't know all the Tyrant powers anymore, but he can cast 3 of them now (or warplance and 1 more) and given that we have established that he is a buff machine this is a good thing, throwing out Catalyst, The Horror AND Paroxysm each turn is actually pretty mean given their large ranges and shear value to the swarm (they may not be great but we can use all of our powers). My only recommendation is to always swap scream for dominion due to his speed (or lack thereof)

4) His ability to just decide, no questions asked, to give ANY Tyranid unit within 18, Preferred enemy, Furious Charge, or Monster Hunter becuase he feels like it......Know what happens when a unit of Furious Charging Hormagaunts runs headlong into an waveserpent line? the Serpent line usually disappears pretty quick. Or give prefered enemy to your zoanthropes/exocrines to really let that plasma hit home. Riptides giving you trouble? there's an answer for that.

5)When Swarmlord is in the army you MUST add 1 to your reserve rolls. this rule means that you can be pretty sure your reserves are comming in turn two, so don't be afraid to outflank a unit or two or hold that crone in reserve, odds are your getting it in soon anyway. Yes this rule also makes the terrible trygon tunnel even worse, but that thing is a train wreck anyway.

Seriously any time this guy gives a unit of gaunts furious charge, or a shooting unit preferred enemy He's probably saves you at least 20-30 pts in biomorphs alone, and for his price that's pretty good.

So how do we run him this time? Well last edition I'd have said either naked (relying on biomancy/catalyst to keep him breathing) or with a pair of lashwwhip tyrant guard (giving the Swarmlord pseudo lashwhips was hilarious) With both those options largely gone form the book I think the best way to run the swarmlord is with a pair of naked guards, your essentially buying him then 4 more wounds and two instances of Eternal Warrior (very frustrating to lose him to Distort shots first turn of the game)

His best use is probably in a swarm list, albeit one where he's not the only big bug, to help the little critters punch well above their weight time and time again.

Just keep him central, be willing to swap out either Warp Lance or Psychic Scream for dominion, ensure he's NOT your only synapse and walk him up the center of the board causing all hell for your opponent by turning your units into real terrifying gribblies.

NB: Keep him away from the likes of Draigo, Abaddon, or Shield of Bull**** Chapter masters, he's a buff machine these days not a combat monster, if you do need to kill those guys, drop 40 Furious Charge/Preferred Enemy gaunts in their face instead, in true swarm fashion.

Edit: Evrything we said about the "brick" tyrant applies to the Swarmlord, Don't rely on him solely for synapse, ensure you have the target saturation to keep him alive, and don't buy his guard adrenal glands because he doesn't have them. Finally ensure that you have redundancy in your list and aren't relying on him to be the only thing in the list doing his jobs (Psychic powers, synapse, Monstrous creature combat etc...)

[Tynskel]

good assessment.

I still dont think that the brick is that slow, if you give them fleet... Granted: the swarmy is the slowest.

[AlmostMercury]

I know that we may be in danger of losing our access to fortifications, but Tynskel's idea of putting an Exocrine on a Quad Cannon is an excellent one. Borrowing from that, putting Swarmlord on one is just as good. With a venomthrope brood, he gets a 2+ cover save along with the ability to fire a serious weapon. It gives you two shots if you have Warp Lance, and if not, you get to shoot once and buff your units 1-4 times.

[Tynskel]

I know that we may be in danger of losing our access to fortifications, but Tynskel's idea of putting an Exocrine on a Quad Cannon is an excellent one. Borrowing from that, putting Swarmlord on one is just as good. With a venomthrope brood, he gets a 2+ cover save along with the ability to fire a serious weapon. It gives you two shots if you have Warp Lance, and if not, you get to shoot once and buff your units 1-4 times.

Ultimately, I would say that is a waste. The Swarmlord is still a CC creature, and should be on the front lines. An Exocrine has the same amount of wounds and save throw as the Swarmlord. It is BS4 if it stands still. It also has a 6 shot/Large Blast weapon. Makes much more sense to woman the quad cannon.

[OlDirtyCosta]

Ultimately, I would say that is a waste. The Swarmlord is still a CC creature, and should be on the front lines. An Exocrine has the same amount of wounds and save throw as the Swarmlord. It is BS4 if it stands still. It also has a 6 shot/Large Blast weapon. Makes much more sense to woman the quad cannon.

I like the though of swarm lord 3 tyrant guard with a flanking exocrine within 18''. Use hormagaunts in front of swarmlords unit and termagaunts in front of exocrine to grant cover save. You can also throw in a venomthrope behind hind those 2 groups to give shrouded. Use preferred enemy on exocrine until you are in melee range and switch to furious assault. In the meantime you can use your psychic powers to buff/debuff. I would use 3 warriors to run quad gun with the 3rd venomthrope hanging out. 9 wounds 2+ cover saves sounds good to me. Thats roughly 1150 points plenty of room to add whatever to fill in what you think you might need. Ill probly go flyrant and a mawloc at least.

[HERO]

Where does he get this 2+ cover?

[DarkLink]

Venomthropes and some sort of 4+, presumably. Ruins or an Aegis.

[OlDirtyCosta]

i apologize i thought the quad gun would give away there was an aegis line.

[daboarder]

personally I don't think thats a great idea mate, its a HUGE points investment and its still going to get out shot buy the likes of eldar and tau, we can't compete with those armies purely through shooting, to deal with them we need to make a combined arms infantry with multiple units that are able to hurt them from range and close up. force them to make hard target priority decisions.

Personally, I think I am going to still be running the Swarmlord, he just has so much utility in our lists that the opponent can focus on downing him, and get eaten by our other options, or try and ignore him, and still get eaten by our other options.

I'm thinking the core of my list is going to be
1flyrant
Swarmlord and 2 guard
2x2 zoans
2x30 gants
2x tervigons (probably with shreddershards)
2x20 Horms (naked)

That leaves me with enough points to buy another big gribbly, Im not sure if I want an exocrine, Tfex, Trygon or crone yet.

personally I really like the dual template Tyrannofex (and I have a conversion that should look awesome in mind. But a mate of mine seems to think the fleshboorer/spinebanks version has potential, I'm not sure I agree, the 18 range on the fleshborers is nice, but 20 S4 shots and 5 S5 ones at BS3 isn't exactly something to write home about....

[Tynskel]

I am not a total fan of that list, however, I think adding a Mawloc would be best. It would add a disruption unit to your army. Knock out some pesky Monsterous Creature killer.

[Tynskel]

One question I have, not that I think it would be a good idea, is that may more than 1 tyrant join a unit of Tyrant Guard. I don't see why not.

Could be entertaining to have two hive tyrants walkin', taking a stroll down to the park...

[daboarder]

I am not a total fan of that list, however, I think adding a Mawloc would be best. It would add a disruption unit to your army. Knock out some pesky Monsterous Creature killer.

Yeah I'm not a huge fan of mawlocs, I'm going to try them but they have 3 major issues in my opinion.
1) They are only "firing" for half the game turns. 1 maybe 2, S6 AP3 blasts not that much firepower for such a big drawback? compare that to say a manticore that also fires a limited number of times and you see what I mean.(remember a mawlocs 2nd shot only fires if their is a model under it, a manticore gets to always maximise the damage it does to a unit with D3 blasts.
2)they scatter 2D6, the lictor/mawloc combo is far to impractical to be called reliable and they do not even have the option of "firing directly" that other similar weapons have
3) Rolling a D6 when my artillery fires to see if the whole 140 pts of model disappears because a grot/guardsman/equally stupid model survived is not my idea of good.


One question I have, not that I think it would be a good idea, is that may more than 1 tyrant join a unit of Tyrant Guard. I don't see why not.

Could be entertaining to have two hive tyrants walkin', taking a stroll down to the park...

Nope unfortunately, single tyrant is specified in the guard rules. (we may see a living fortress show up as a dataslate though, given this whole , not a supplement, supplement thingy we're being fed.

edit: as to the list, to be honest its what I can run with minimal pruchases, (the guard and a tfex), It also needs more testing.

[Tynskel]

I think you entirely miss the point of Bugs.

Things are supposed to die. A mawloc is going to die. Who cares. That does not detract from the fact that the Mawloc is a good disruption unit.

[daboarder]

I think you entirely miss the point of Bugs.

Things are supposed to die. A mawloc is going to die. Who cares. That does not detract from the fact that the Mawloc is a good disruption unit.

well thank you for telling me I have no idea about an army I've been collecting to 10 years...I'll take that into account. oh and thats a stupid idea, one that is not supported in the fluff and has only been used as an excuse for the last......11 days.


moving along, you like your disposable MC thats all well and good but Id rather make the enemy work for the kill than just give it to them.

[DarkLink]

Things are supposed to die. A mawloc is going to die. Who cares. That does not detract from the fact that the Mawloc is a good disruption unit.

"Ok, I'm deepstriking my Mawlock... alright, the blast hits, I kill like two guys... oh, crap, I mishap... well, he's dead" is not much of a distraction.

Not that I think the Mawlock is bad, but if you seriously think that its rules are well written then you're smoking something. At the very least, why do you drop a Large Blast, even though that's not the same shape as the oval base? Why not just say "I'm deepstriking here, everything under my base gets hit"?

[Tynskel]

???

What do you want from GW? An Oval shaped Blast? If you look at that, it is quite generous. Plus, you get to put that down twice. Think about it this way: Str6 AP2 Ignores cover wounds 90% of the game units on a 2+. Twice!

Seems quite clear to me!

[DarkLink]

...an oval shaped blast is kind of exactly what would make sense, yes. I mean, it would be only logical to be like 'ok, my mawlock is deepstriking here, everything under the base takes a Str 6 Ap2 hit'. And instead of this weird 'place a blast template, and if it doesn't kill everything place a second one', just keep the old 'push survivors out of the way' rule. I mean, seriously, how does the Mawlock mishap? It pops up and pokes its eye on a Space Marine's foot, so it gets scared and tunnels back into the ground?

I'm not saying the rule is difficult to understand. I'm saying that, of all the ways they could have done it, why did they pick that one?

[Anggul]

There is the potential for it to go back into reserves, then do it again next turn. I think the biggest worry is that you're pretty likely to just scatter off-target and only hit a couple of models. Without the BS reduction you get when shooting you're likely to scatter quite far. If Lictors could move before Reserves happened we might be able to use them, but as it is we aren't going to get Lictors within 6" of a unit we want to Mawloc by turn 2. Even if you managed to get that close, they would probably just be killed.

If you roll well on the scatter it's lovely, but the chance of scattering too much seems too high to me.

[Ghoulio]

...an oval shaped blast is kind of exactly what would make sense, yes. I mean, it would be only logical to be like 'ok, my mawlock is deepstriking here, everything under the base takes a Str 6 Ap2 hit'. And instead of this weird 'place a blast template, and if it doesn't kill everything place a second one', just keep the old 'push survivors out of the way' rule. I mean, seriously, how does the Mawlock mishap? It pops up and pokes its eye on a Space Marine's foot, so it gets scared and tunnels back into the ground?

I'm not saying the rule is difficult to understand. I'm saying that, of all the ways they could have done it, why did they pick that one?

For the life of me I 100% don't understand the Mawloc's new deepstriking rules. Why couldn't they have just kept it the same expect added "Ignore Cover". I would have been over the moon with that. It makes no sense AT ALL that he gets two blasts...then mishaps if he can't be placed. Why? Why would he get two blasts for bursting out of the ground?

Tysnkel also isn't making a lot of sense. It really feels like he is thinking of last editions Mawloc which was a great distraction and it just burst up through the ground, pushing stuff around and being a genuine pain in the butt. Now with the mishap half the time it's a non issue as you are either placed to be destroyed, placed to be irrelevant or just flat out dead. That is one of my major issues with this book. Quite a few things were reduced in points, which is great (and was needed) while everything also had a "...but" added to it. So my Trygon for example went down 10pts...but...his stupid tunnel is still stupid and he no longer re-rolls to hit in close combat. Everything in the book is this way. Drives me nuts.

[Dave Caruana]

I agree that mawlocs arent reliable, can do damage, but are too random to waste 140pts wise competitively. I mean ok if he dsnt scatter u get 1 maybe 2 blasts, but just imagine how p off ud be if u drop a blast on a unit of guardsmen, , he gets 4 1s, so u do another balst and he gets a 1, so because of 1 guardsman, ur mawloc mishaps?? Straanger things have happened and u know it. Great fluff, probably fun for a friendly but I wont let 1 guardsman ruin my tournament.
Aboit the swarmlord, dabo the way youve described swarmy has made me rethink everything about him, just dont u feel that with only 1 flyrant and 2 crones ur still lacking AA?? I mean 2 flyrants plus 2 crones really makes u feel safe when u face 3 helldrakes and vendettas in 1 army or 3 helldrakes and nightscythes, or stormtalons and stormravens...

[Dave Caruana]

Also I dno why ppl hate crones so much, true theyre t5 and 4+save but u have 5 wounds and most hit on 6s, plus dont field 1, field 2 and a flyrant or 2, put hormies in ur opponents face put gaunts behind an aegis, get zoanthropes within firing range while they give synapse to ur gribblies, put venomthropes in tempting places where hed be tempted to fire at them, like that, ur crones wud be able to get their 155pts worth, go vs white scar biker spam? U have d3+1 s8 ap3 v.strikes that wud eat a 5 man biker squad (leaving 1 maybe 2 that ur griblies cud take down) eldar troops? Drool cannon, tanks? Tentaclid plus dakka flyrants flyers? Tentaclid missiles. Theyre really really good u just have to learn how to play them, after all if u wanted an easy straight forward army to lay, start buying eldar or tau, were nids and were complicated!! :P

N.B daboarder I recommend u give ur hormagaunts t.sacs, wounding anything on 4s includes wraithknights, riptides and the like...u move 12"(on average) then charge with a re roll next turn, have move through cover and if within synapse are fearless for 8pts!!

[chicop76]

The same that is said for the Mawlock was the same thing people said about old Flamers of Tzeentch until they started winning tournaments and everyone started to use them.

They aren't a very expensive unit and can easily take out a decent amount of troops. Heck they run great with long range blast weapons which forces you to think about spreading out your guys or keep them bunched together.

If my Mawlock takes out two broadsides and wound another than it did a good job. Personally I like this version much better. The other version cost more and didn't do as much damage, unless it was a vehicle. This one does much more damage, cheaper and balanced out. Against tau and guard you can take out targets like O#SHOVA bomb for example.

Yeah it can miss or misshap. That is why I think you should run more than one. Last edition I suggested running 3. This one after some play testing I would say go with at least two and an Exocrine. I want to say just run 3 Mawlocks to be honest.

[Tynskel]

...an oval shaped blast is kind of exactly what would make sense, yes. I mean, it would be only logical to be like 'ok, my mawlock is deepstriking here, everything under the base takes a Str 6 Ap2 hit'. And instead of this weird 'place a blast template, and if it doesn't kill everything place a second one', just keep the old 'push survivors out of the way' rule. I mean, seriously, how does the Mawlock mishap? It pops up and pokes its eye on a Space Marine's foot, so it gets scared and tunnels back into the ground?

I'm not saying the rule is difficult to understand. I'm saying that, of all the ways they could have done it, why did they pick that one?

Think physics: You aren't going to Burst out of the ground with the force that kills things in 40k, unless you 'explode' out of the ground. aka a crater. Craters are circular due to the energy to momentum ratio being >>1.

Another way to look at it: there are only 2 blast templates. a small one and a big one. I, for one, would prefer the big one for such a large creature...

[Tynskel]

For the life of me I 100% don't understand the Mawloc's new deepstriking rules. Why couldn't they have just kept it the same expect added "Ignore Cover". I would have been over the moon with that. It makes no sense AT ALL that he gets two blasts...then mishaps if he can't be placed. Why? Why would he get two blasts for bursting out of the ground?

Tysnkel also isn't making a lot of sense. It really feels like he is thinking of last editions Mawloc which was a great distraction and it just burst up through the ground, pushing stuff around and being a genuine pain in the butt. Now with the mishap half the time it's a non issue as you are either placed to be destroyed, placed to be irrelevant or just flat out dead. That is one of my major issues with this book. Quite a few things were reduced in points, which is great (and was needed) while everything also had a "...but" added to it. So my Trygon for example went down 10pts...but...his stupid tunnel is still stupid and he no longer re-rolls to hit in close combat. Everything in the book is this way. Drives me nuts.

Half the time? On you on math crack?
you wound most things on a 2+, ignores cover, with AP2? If you don't kill it, you PLACE THE MARKER AGAIN! You do it again!! Then you can place the mawloc, even if there are models withing 1"!!

Half the time? WHat are you attacking, tanks?

[Tynskel]

well thank you for telling me I have no idea about an army I've been collecting to 10 years...I'll take that into account. oh and thats a stupid idea, one that is not supported in the fluff and has only been used as an excuse for the last......11 days.


moving along, you like your disposable MC thats all well and good but Id rather make the enemy work for the kill than just give it to them.

unsupported by fluff? eh? considering half the bug stories are about bugs being blown up... hmmmmm... Someone should read the fluff portion of their codex...

[Ghoulio]

Half the time? On you on math crack?
you wound most things on a 2+, ignores cover, with AP2? If you don't kill it, you PLACE THE MARKER AGAIN! You do it again!! Then you can place the mawloc, even if there are models withing 1"!!

Half the time? WHat are you attacking, tanks?

I am talking about when you actually mishap, not wounding and doing actual damage (which is obviously way up from the previous edition). Plus now all it takes is being near a tank, a multi wound model that isnt T3, rolling a single "1" on the second round of wounding or attacking something with invuln savs and you are hooped. Best you can hope for is ongoing reserves...worst is to just straight up die. This rule just didn't need to be changed. It was fantastic as it was. Super fluffy, great visual and made sense and could actually effect vehicles (rear armor vs. side). All it needed was the 30pts price drop and ignore cover and it would be perfect. Now you have to be ultra picky of where you are going to put him and he WILL mishap during your games.

[AlmostMercury]

A benefit of the Mawloc is that it can still burrow after failing an IB roll so they don't require synapse.

Frankly, if I run them, I want to mishap for the chance at ongoing reserves. Having it in ongoing reserves is not only increasing the number of shots, it also protects the unit from fire. Your opponent does get to choose where to place it 33%, but the unit also has Hit & Run to escape assault. 83% of the time you're about as well off as you would be without a mishap, but with a considerable chance at being better off.

If you play this unit, you're playing the variance of it. And you might also consider Acid Blood to get that little bit more out of it.

That being said I would always take Biovores first.

Edit: Oh, and it also has infinite range which is nice.

[Tynskel]

I am talking about when you actually mishap, not wounding and doing actual damage (which is obviously way up from the previous edition). Plus now all it takes is being near a tank, a multi wound model that isnt T3, rolling a single "1" on the second round of wounding or attacking something with invuln savs and you are hooped. Best you can hope for is ongoing reserves...worst is to just straight up die. This rule just didn't need to be changed. It was fantastic as it was. Super fluffy, great visual and made sense and could actually effect vehicles (rear armor vs. side). All it needed was the 30pts price drop and ignore cover and it would be perfect. Now you have to be ultra picky of where you are going to put him and he WILL mishap during your games.

wow, that's a lot of failures there...

You mean a single multi-wound model that isn't T4. aka, *WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING PALADINS WITH THE MAWLOC*?

[Ghoulio]

wow, that's a lot of failures there...

You mean a single multi-wound model that isn't T4. aka, *WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING PALADINS WITH THE MAWLOC*?

You DO know you scatter 66% of the time right? If you are going to comment please actually think about what you are talking about and take the rage glasses off. I am clearly talking about those little unforseen things that WILL happen every game and how easy it is make your Mawloc mishap now. I am still going to use my Mawlocs as I have two of them and they are one of my fave figs in the entire range. All I am saying is that they were more effective as a disruptive force last edition as they virtually never mishapped and were guaranteed 2nd turn deep strikes while they will do more damage this edition they will mishap way more and they will only show up 66% of the time on turn 2 so they are less of a disruptive force. It's a personal preference right? I personally like how they functioned last edition and would have loved to see that still in the book as to me it made way more sense then 2 blasts.

[Tynskel]

Yes, I know that you scatter 66% of the time, and the chances of scattering into something you do not like are still very low, considering the amount of infantry that people use in the game.

You need to take a chill pill, the Mawloc is 10x better than before.

Besides, the Mawloc scattered just as much as before.

[Dave Caruana]

Tynskel, what happens if u face an entire army of grey knights simply consisting of paladins and draigo some mre paladins, plus 2 dreadnoughts and stormtalons?? What wud u do, with 3 mawlocs, vs a flyer spam?? Vs 3 heldrakes, vs 3 vendettas, vs a mix of both? U do know that most armies (except nids and orks) tend to prefer low amount of models with high amount of shots.... what wud u do if u had a unit a real easy unit for a mawloc to explode beneath their feet, only theyre deployed AROUND a riptide, or a wraiyhknight, what if all his units are in wave serpents? What if u play vs a white scar army all t5.... u cant put so many points on 1 slightly risky unit like the mawloc...u have to take into account fliers and fmcs thats our main priority as we dnt have any skyfire, a unit that can be killed by a mawloc can be killed by an exocrine and its safer, a few crones vectirstriking, dakkafexs, dakkaflyrants, hormagaunts with t.sacs..why even risk 420pts just so 1 guardsman survives and he mishaps.... its really a no brainer, mawloc is nice for friendlies not for competitive lists...

[Dave Caruana]

Btw every1 is saying trygons got nerfed....we lost the rerolls, so slightly worse vs units, but since we have A5 we get 3 smash +1 charge +1 x2 scy taks so we have 5 smash attacks now not 3 like before.... so u can essentially smash every turn against any1....I dno but give it adr.glands and its 205pts and u have reroll charge, give it REGEN and as soon as ur opponent sees a 220pt monster like that in the middle of his lines, then mention regen aaaand did any1 mention a disruption unit?? :D

[evilamericorp]

Tynskel, what happens if u face an entire army of grey knights simply consisting of paladins and draigo some mre paladins, plus 2 dreadnoughts and stormtalons?? What wud u do, with 3 mawlocs, vs a flyer spam?? Vs 3 heldrakes, vs 3 vendettas, vs a mix of both? U do know that most armies (except nids and orks) tend to prefer low amount of models with high amount of shots.... what wud u do if u had a unit a real easy unit for a mawloc to explode beneath their feet, only theyre deployed AROUND a riptide, or a wraiyhknight, what if all his units are in wave serpents? What if u play vs a white scar army all t5.... u cant put so many points on 1 slightly risky unit like the mawloc...u have to take into account fliers and fmcs thats our main priority as we dnt have any skyfire, a unit that can be killed by a mawloc can be killed by an exocrine and its safer, a few crones vectirstriking, dakkafexs, dakkaflyrants, hormagaunts with t.sacs..why even risk 420pts just so 1 guardsman survives and he mishaps.... its really a no brainer, mawloc is nice for friendlies not for competitive lists...

Why do you think mishaping is so bad? 50% of the time he goes into ongoing reserves and you can get your double blast again next turn. 33% of the time your opponent places him in the corner, and he can reburrow and come up again in 2 turns. There is only a 17% chance of him dying. I love the new Mawloc rules, the mishap rule gives him a chance to do a lot more damage over the course of the game.

[Sonikgav]

Why do you think mishaping is so bad? 50% of the time he goes into ongoing reserves and you can get your double blast again next turn. 33% of the time your opponent places him in the corner, and he can reburrow and come up again in 2 turns. There is only a 17% chance of him dying. I love the new Mawloc rules, the mishap rule gives him a chance to do a lot more damage over the course of the game.

Exactly! A Mishap that sends him back into reserve, though risky, is the preffered outcome from any Mawloc attack. It means you've layed in with those 2 Blasts and get to do it again next turn instead of hoping you survive a turn before burrowing again.

[GravesDisease]

When i've run vindicators i've lost them only after one round of shooting, likewise with sternguard with vengeance rounds or just plasma devs in general. The risk of insta-death with a mawloc balances the relatively cheap unit.

Also isn't the large blast marker actually larger than the base so even if you don't kill everything when you come out it's not to say you still cant fit the model on the table (as per written rules). The oval base is a few inches slimmer on the sides.

[Dave Caruana]

Exactly, BEST case scenario is u have 2 more turns doiiiiiiiing.....NOTHING!!!! Ooor ur dead. While u can do whatever u want, iiim hoping for something that can hurt my opponent everyturn not in turn 3 and turn 6....

[DarkLink]

Exactly! A Mishap that sends him back into reserve, though risky, is the preffered outcome from any Mawloc attack. It means you've layed in with those 2 Blasts and get to do it again next turn instead of hoping you survive a turn before burrowing again.

A 1/6 chance of dying isn't exactly ideal, considering there's plenty of artillery in the game that are guaranteed to drop multiple large high str high ap blasts every single turn for a similar points cost without any overwrought game mechanics. But, yeah, Mishap can actually work to your advantage.



You need to take a chill pill, the Mawloc is 10x better than before.


He's not the only one. Believe it or not, Tynskel, other people are allowed to have opinions, too. They can even be different from yours.

[chicop76]

The Mawlock hate. It is really like 100x better than before. Let's look at deepstriking.

33% of the time you deviate and 66% of the time you scatter.

When you scatter you move from 2-12 away. Keeping this in mind, and remembering that most models have 1" bases even when you scatter you can still hit on target. For argument sake a 4" deviation is not too bad since you will pretty much hit on target. Seeing that 7" deviation is normal you have like a 40% chance of hitting the unit.

Which means even if you scatter you will still have a decent chance of hitting the unit, unless you roll high and scatter far away.

The past Mawlock would sit there and be up for grabs unless it landed within 1" of its target. Now you mishap.

1 means you dead
2-3 you are placed, which isn't too bad since you can go back and deep strike again. The negative is that you are placed by plasma gunners nearby.
4-6 pretty much means you can deep strike again. Heck I would want to go back in reserves after I hit a unit twice.

I would deep strike a Mawlock on Paladins. You would kill a good number of them. If you manage to kill 3 than you're good. 2 is likely depending on how they are set up. If you hit you have like a 50% chance not to be around when they try to hit you back, awesomeness.

If you worry about mishaps than you can infiltrate with Lictors, which have move through cover and fleet. That means you have a good chance of getting within 6" of a target at turn 2. By turn 3 you will be easily with 6" of something. Although I think you will be going to ground with them though.

I would take 3 Mawlocks and say deal with that. On average one should always hit and a second have a good chance too. Evenwith iinterceptor not many armies can stop it. It's probably one of the best units in the game, if you can control deep striking than it would be the best. Armor is not a problem since you can deep strike next to it and take it out the next turn.

I wouldn't be surprised to see 2 are more Mawlocks in a Tyranids army now.

[Anggul]

My problem with Mawlocs is that unlike shooting their scatter isn't reduced, so they're much too likely to just scatter off and not do much. Lictors are not a viable way of getting hits with them, you aren't going to get a Lictor to 6" from an enemy unit and have it stay that way until the next turn. Either they kill the Lictors or just move away and leave you back where you started. 6" isn't far enough to be useful for a Mawloc, the only use for Pheromone Trail is Deep Striking FMCs.

420pts for three Mawlocs is an awful deal when only one of them is likely to get a hit each time and you can only do it once every two turns unless you mishap and go back into reserves. The other two will probably only hit a couple of models unless it's a big unit, in which case they probably aren't heavily armoured and you're better off with Biovores. You're relying on rolling lots of hits or very low scatter. If they had a special rule to represent the accuracy that their fluff says they have (i.e re-roll scatter or only D6) then they would definitely be worth it, but as it is they're much too unreliable. Either they'll eat a unit or they'll only kill a couple of guys and have to wait two turns to have another go.

[chicop76]

My problem with Mawlocs is that unlike shooting their scatter isn't reduced, so they're much too likely to just scatter off and not do much. Lictors are not a viable way of getting hits with them, you aren't going to get a Lictor to 6" from an enemy unit and have it stay that way until the next turn. Either they kill the Lictors or just move away and leave you back where you started. 6" isn't far enough to be useful for a Mawloc, the only use for Pheromone Trail is Deep Striking FMCs.

420pts for three Mawlocs is an awful deal when only one of them is likely to get a hit each time and you can only do it once every two turns unless you mishap and go back into reserves. The other two will probably only hit a couple of models unless it's a big unit, in which case they probably aren't heavily armoured and you're better off with Biovores. You're relying on rolling lots of hits or very low scatter. If they had a special rule to represent the accuracy that their fluff says they have (i.e re-roll scatter or only D6) then they would definitely be worth it, but as it is they're much too unreliable. Either they'll eat a unit or they'll only kill a couple of guys and have to wait two turns to have another go.

It is still a cheap MC. It have the choice of going back in reserves or staying on the board. With my Riptide experience it can do some damage if left unchecked.

Depending where your stuff is and what you moving. You mean to tell me you are going to move a long rang unit, if you do I welcome the disruption I caused.

Honestly when I use Lictors they pretty much stay where they are and continue to go to ground with 2 plus cover saves. However I usually lose them to heavy flamers, now would you go over by them if you knew a non scattering Mawlock is coming in next turn.

Just from running 3 squads of flamers of Tzeentch all the time I usually can flame my target. Now with the Mawlock you really don't have to worry about landing on your target since that is what you want to do any way.

Biovores are not bad, but honestly they are only disruptive units. The Mawlock have a good chance of wiping out most non vehicle , not more the 3 wound models.

In reality you need to be able to deal with units like broadsides. Honestly the Mawlock is the only unit in the nid army that can deal with them, if the Mawlock don't scatter off the board. Also the fact you doing damage fro center template cancels out the Indium armour non sense. Also this unit is great for dealing with biker marines.

I can go on and on about the infinite rage strength 6 ap 2 template monster that can drop the template twice. It happens to be the answer to a lot of things that other ranged units can't deal with.

Heck it even bust tanks if it is still alive next turn since it can smash attack a tank.

It is anti tank and anti troop, plus it can be really hard to kill.

[daboarder]

The Mawlock hate. It is really like 100x better than before. Let's look at deepstriking.


Theres no hate, All I said was that personally I'm not going to spend 140 pts on them, and then listed the reasons why. I'll still cover the best ways to use them and whatnot when I get to them, but they're not the gold standard people made them out to be.

I mean just consider it, anytime you scatter over a 3 wound model, your giving that model a "Free" attack against your mawloc that may as well be a distort shot, in a sense. Sure they're cheap, deepstriking T6W6 MC's, but I'd honestly more often take something else

[chicop76]

Theres no hate, All I said was that personally I'm not going to spend 140 pts on them, and then listed the reasons why. I'll still cover the best ways to use them and whatnot when I get to them, but they're not the gold standard people made them out to be.

I mean just consider it, anytime you scatter over a 3 wound model, your giving that model a "Free" attack against your mawloc that may as well be a distort shot, in a sense. Sure they're cheap, deepstriking T6W6 MC's, but I'd honestly more often take something else

They not as good as old Flamers, but run pretty much the same. I personally never really ran Mawlocks, but the double hit and the chance to deep strike again next turn makes it attractive. Also seeing how we lost so much, I can see the need to take them. Personally I think taking 3 would be ideal, but will try out 2. I tend to deviate a lot, but we'll see.

[OlDirtyCosta]

I used my Mawloc for the first time today. I wiped out a space a marine unit between deepstriking and assaulting. Put it back in ongoing reserves came in missed and died in the next round of shooting. It still sucked up 2 rounds of shooting from a centurion squad and a tactical squad. IMO he more then made up his points.

[daboarder]

They not as good as old Flamers, but run pretty much the same. I personally never really ran Mawlocks, but the double hit and the chance to deep strike again next turn makes it attractive. Also seeing how we lost so much, I can see the need to take them. Personally I think taking 3 would be ideal, but will try out 2. I tend to deviate a lot, but we'll see.

I'd never recommend more than 2, that way you have the abillity to reach out and touch your opponents list without over investing in it.

[Gleipnir]

Biovores are a better point investment if you can keep them alive via smart deployment(personally I prefer in an AV14 bunker with plenty of fire points to grant Fearless ad essentially nullify most the negative effects of IB), so can't see ever investing in more than 2 Mawlocs, and even 1 is usually sufficient to potentially alter your opponents deployment. I always saw them as more of a boogeyman unit to disrupt the opponents game plan and draw a turn or 2 of fire while the rest of the swarm moves across the battlefield, just one more target to attempt to force tougher target priority choices.

[chicop76]

Biovores are a better point investment if you can keep them alive via smart deployment(personally I prefer in an AV14 bunker with plenty of fire points to grant Fearless ad essentially nullify most the negative effects of IB), so can't see ever investing in more than 2 Mawlocs, and even 1 is usually sufficient to potentially alter your opponents deployment. I always saw them as more of a boogeyman unit to disrupt the opponents game plan and draw a turn or 2 of fire while the rest of the swarm moves across the battlefield, just one more target to attempt to force tougher target priority choices.

The spores are better, but vs some armies the Biovores will struggle for example unless I am playing swarm the Biovores are ignorance. They good for helping with assaults and target saturation. Other than that they aren't as good as the Mawlock.

I would run 3 Mawlocks from experience running 3 units of flamers. Not that 3 Mawlocks can wipe out 75% of an army by themselves. It just running one flamers didn't work, and two didn't work that well, while 3 was the ideal number. The Mawlock is pretty much the old Flamers at 30 more points and more durable. Flamers was game changers jinxed the huge nerf. The Mawlock uses a large blast instead of a flame template which wounds most on 2s and can do it twice. Even 3 wounded models will be hit hard like say if you hit 5 and wind up hitting 10. That's 9 wounds which easily kills 3 warriors for example.

If you roll above average than you can get away with one Mawlock, but due to average rolling 3 would be ideal since on average one will hit on target, while the other two might. The Mawlock can pretty much cover all the heavies jobs, except Exocrine which is ideal for MC hunting., or the tyrannofex which can deal with higher armour vehicle at range. Honestly I rather run Zonathropes instead of the tyrannofex.

Not saying the Mawlock is good as Tzeentch Flamers, well old flamers. Just saying that what you have said is the same people said about running flamers, and they had to nerf yhe he'll out of that model.

[daboarder]

flamers hadm4+ invul saves, EW, templates (meaning you couldn't assault them and they ALWAYS hit what they looked at.) murdered vehicles (causing a glance on a 4+ for each template)

They're completely different units.

moving along, tyrant guard coming soon

[AlmostMercury]

The spores are better, but vs some armies the Biovores will struggle for example unless I am playing swarm the Biovores are ignorance. They good for helping with assaults and target saturation. Other than that they aren't as good as the Mawlock.

The primary purpose of Biovores is to destroy troops, which they do very well. You deny your opponent the capacity to score with excellent range.

[chicop76]

flamers hadm4+ invul saves, EW, templates (meaning you couldn't assault them and they ALWAYS hit what they looked at.) murdered vehicles (causing a glance on a 4+ for each template)

They're completely different units.

moving along, tyrant guard coming soon

What's really the difference. I was talking about 5th edition flamers of Tzeentch since 6th edition flamers didn't last longlong, didn't understand the need to make an open unit more op.

However the general strategy to use them was the same. Most of the time you deep strike them in and flame your target. Same general ideal for the Mawlock. It's like comparing oblits, broadsides, and centurians. They are fundamentally the same, but have different strengths and weaknesses. Which is why I compare Mawlock vs 5th edition flamers. However the Mawlock would probably still be alive if he deviate too much, while the flamers tend to get blasted to hell.

Making comparisons of like units give you a general ideal how to use them, and how durable they are. If nurgle oblits can walk up the field and stay alive you can reason you can do the same with centurians.


I am aware of what the Biovore does. If you go on my post talking about them I give them a thumbs up. My issue is you have a ton of anti infantry in the nids army already. What nids are lacking is ranged terminator, Wraithknight, broadsides, oblits, centurians, Riptide, etc. Nids lack dealing with those units from range. The Exocrine is only 24" which half those units can stay back 48" and rain down death. The Biovore does not deal with these units, the only real options you have is winged hive tyrant, Mawlock, Exocrine, Zonathropes. I play tau and see other Tau armies. Either you dealing with riptides and broadsides, or a bunch of broadsides or a bunch of riptides. Also you know dealing with heavy bike armies as well. The Mawlock really does a number on bikes.

Now if I wanted to play friendly than I'll through in that biovore. If I was playing heavy horde than I will use it. I can see the perks I. Using it. I just don't see it as a unit that can help you win against the stupid crap that hits the board and laughing off the Biovores.

[DarkLink]

Except that Flamers were far, far, far, far, far, far, far better than the Mawlock could ever hope to be. The Mawlock has one neat little trick. Flamers, on the other hand, were massively brutal in virtually every aspect of the game. Extremely fast, extremely durable, extremely killy in shooting, and basically auto-killed the first unit to assault them each turn.

[Tynskel]

Except that Flamers were far, far, far, far, far, far, far better than the Mawlock could ever hope to be. The Mawlock has one neat little trick. Flamers, on the other hand, were massively brutal in virtually every aspect of the game. Extremely fast, extremely durable, extremely killy in shooting, and basically auto-killed the first unit to assault them each turn.

I win. ::CLICK::

[DarkLink]

Pretty much. The only way to really beat them was pretty much to hope they were dumb enough to land close enough to multiple units that you could absorb overwatch with one, then assault them with something that could tie them up for the rest of the game, or maybe kill them if you were lucky. And doing that vs 3 units of Flamers just meant that you were bleeding units left and right. They drop in and kill one unit each, you lose another unit to each getting into assault, and a third unit gets tied up with them in the assault itself, and it's not like Daemons lacked for CC units that could get stuck in and free the Flamers up to do it all over again.

[chicop76]

Pretty much. The only way to really beat them was pretty much to hope they were dumb enough to land close enough to multiple units that you could absorb overwatch with one, then assault them with something that could tie them up for the rest of the game, or maybe kill them if you were lucky. And doing that vs 3 units of Flamers just meant that you were bleeding units left and right. They drop in and kill one unit each, you lose another unit to each getting into assault, and a third unit gets tied up with them in the assault itself, and it's not like Daemons lacked for CC units that could get stuck in and free the Flamers up to do it all over again.


You missed that I said 5th edition flamers before the White Dwarf Codex.

Also I was playing with the Masquerade in tournament play. Basically the Masquerade would bunch 2-3 units together to get max flamers potential. The best drop was when I can flame 8 or more units with 3 flamers, mostly tx to the Masquerade.

Since I played heavy Tzeentch I would also blast away with warp blast and demonic gaze. It wasn't unusual for me to blow away 50% of an army when I deep struck in on the first turn. On the following turns my melee units would come in and deter assaults on them.

When 6th came around it turned daemons into a damn good army. However the 6th edition codex have made daemons less s hooty on the ap 1 and 3 side.

Anyway your basic flamers of Tzeentch during 5th edition played out very similar to the Mawlock now. Only difference is Mawlock is a lot harder to blast away. Even without the Masquerade, WD rules, 6th edition rules the flamers was a good unit, which heavily relied on deep striking near a target which worked well for me majority of my games. Applying the same tactics to the Mawlock shouldn't be any different. Honestly I would be surprised if anyone allowed my flamers to live and always expect ed them to die, with the Mawlock you can't really just ignore something that jumps on your head every other round unless you are mechanized, which old flamers it wouldn't bother anyway.

[OlDirtyCosta]

Should change this to Daboarders Flamer and Mawloc review.....

[Tynskel]

Should change this to Daboarders Flamer and Mawloc review.....

change it to: usurp OP review!

[John Alva Kay]

What nids are lacking is ranged terminator, Wraithknight, broadsides, oblits, centurians, Riptide, etc. Nids lack dealing with those units from range. The Exocrine is only 24" which half those units can stay back 48" and rain down death. The Biovore does not deal with these units, the only real options you have is winged hive tyrant, Mawlock, Exocrine, Zonathropes. I play tau and see other Tau armies. Either you dealing with riptides and broadsides, or a bunch of broadsides or a bunch of riptides. Also you know dealing with heavy bike armies as well. The Mawlock really does a number on bikes.


Tyranids are usually an up close and personal army. Tyranids have the Tyrannofex if 48" range in needed. The Hive Crone is also fast enough to deal with long ranged tanks, and the Harpy can take out some of the heavy support infantry.

I don't see 24" range being a problem with heavy weapons in many games, as the Tyranids are all about moving forward and shooting. It only takes 1 or 2 turns to close a gap (with the right units) in typical games. If you are playing your Ranges nices aggresively, you'll have them at 24" from the Enemy deployment zone, and depending on table setup, that could also be pretty close to enemy long range. Sure, they are getting a few shots at you, but that's the same for everyone else. The 30" and 36" range in the first 2 turns, will probably be enough to take some stuff out.

With the way objectives work, Tyranids being able to deal with troops is usually fine. Without any Troops, the enemy cannot usually win.

[chicop76]

It really depends on your deployment. 24" for 1/3 of the deployments is just fine, but in 2/3 rds you have 2-3 turns to cover the distance to get in range. However running does help close the gap, especially if they are daemonettes. Someone mentioned the run shoot run which is somewhat reliable.

The best overall nid build is probably 2 winged tyrants, and 3 cronies with anything you want afterwards. The problem with a nid air list is Tau tears it apart, seem them down flying daemons which are worst. The flying option does help vs serpent spam list though, but what happens if you confront winged daemons, vector striking galore with one side that have invulnerable saves and the other side doesn't.

This brings me back to what I said about Tau and the reason why they so hard to beat. They do a lot of things well and can make a list to cover almost everything, don't talk about O'Shova allies or allies period.

I don't think nids suck, I think they are better than half the 6th edition armies that came out. If anything I think they are almost in the middle. To me they come off as a less powerful daemon army which give up a lot of candy to have more units.

Personally I still don't see the talk about them being good vs screamer star really. They can still get 2+ invulnerable saves, just less likely and more likely to get 3+ invulnerable saves. The only thing I see to give a daemon army real pause are Exocrine and Swarmlord. The problem with the Swarmlord is that no one wants to really run him since he considered to be expensive, until you look at what you are paying for daemon units.

I just see it hard to really come up with a real all comers list with nids. I see them winning local tournaments, but I can't really see them winning large tournaments, unless you get lucky picks.

On the bright side I think this nid codex is better than the last one. It did what the daemon codex did with daemons, However I think the daemons was highly blessed and not to mention completely overhauled with few units being the same from the previous codex.

This codex is a balanced codex. I mean a Swarmlord with Ironarm was crazy stupid. Personally I felt the BRB powers balanced them out vs Daemons since even a Swarmlord dies to a maxed out Bloodthirster. Would like to see Belakor vs Swarmlord that would be a good fight, Belakor would do a lot of damage due to invisibility and wounding on 2s, it really depends on Belakor initial assault.

I need to see a few battle reports with serpent heavy eldar vs flying circus. However with falcon shooting and only taking mostly glancing hits. I can't see them doing poorly against flying dinosaurs. Multiple strength 8 vector strikes can take out a serpent, 1-2 passes can wreak it. However serpents have really good mobility and have enough twin linked shooting to cause some downed nid flyers.

However I say cronies are pretty good due to the fact. That your standard shooting that is devoted to them will help keep your other models alive. Not to many people want to let models vector strike them all day.

I think another thing I like about this codex is you can now field an air force that is threatening with a swarm presence. Which flying circus can't do simply do to not having a lot of troops. With flying circus you can easily wipe out the troops and deal with the flyers. With flying nids you can't really sit there trying to wipe out all the troops while 5 models are wiping out your army, or focus on the flyers to be overcome by ground forces.

[Dave Caruana]

2 flyrants, 2 crones, 2 exocrines...or 3 crones and 1 exocrine, jot muchndifference, just to let you know, whenever u shoot at units with the exocrine ur opponent almost akways goes to ground if in cover, that means he onky fires snapshots with that unit, meaning hell probably shoot at ur flyers next turn (since ued be hitting them anyway on snapshots so might as well try getting a grounding test. With THAT said, use poisoned HORMAGAUNTS with ur flying circus, they will reach enemy lines practically in time with ur circus and try imagine a unit of 15 hormies (45 attacks poisoned) ready to assault next turn with crones on top of them, u fire an exocrine on the unit u wanna charge next turn, they go to ground and fire at ur crone while ur hormagaunts enter assault scot free!!! They are the baine of wraithknights, riptides, terminators, seriously try them, 2 units of 15 poisoned hormagaunts, 2 dakkaflyrants, 2/3 crones,2/1 exocrine, now THAT is synergy!!! Put 1 unitnof 2 zoans and 3 units of gants for objectives on ur side and I personally guarantee u wont lose many gants with all THAT target priority in his face, oh and 2 units of venomthropes and an aegis, 50pts simply for that 1st turn 2+ cover save and then the rest of the game 1 or 2 units of ur gants get to keep a 2+cover save while holding an objective or 2 in ur deployment zone.

[chicop76]

2 flyrants, 2 crones, 2 exocrines...or 3 crones and 1 exocrine, jot muchndifference, just to let you know, whenever u shoot at units with the exocrine ur opponent almost akways goes to ground if in cover, that means he onky fires snapshots with that unit, meaning hell probably shoot at ur flyers next turn (since ued be hitting them anyway on snapshots so might as well try getting a grounding test. With THAT said, use poisoned HORMAGAUNTS with ur flying circus, they will reach enemy lines practically in time with ur circus and try imagine a unit of 15 hormies (45 attacks poisoned) ready to assault next turn with crones on top of them, u fire an exocrine on the unit u wanna charge next turn, they go to ground and fire at ur crone while ur hormagaunts enter assault scot free!!! They are the baine of wraithknights, riptides, terminators, seriously try them, 2 units of 15 poisoned hormagaunts, 2 dakkaflyrants, 2/3 crones,2/1 exocrine, now THAT is synergy!!! Put 1 unitnof 2 zoans and 3 units of gants for objectives on ur side and I personally guarantee u wont lose many gants with all THAT target priority in his face, oh and 2 units of venomthropes and an aegis, 50pts simply for that 1st turn 2+ cover save and then the rest of the game 1 or 2 units of ur gants get to keep a 2+cover save while holding an objective or 2 in ur deployment zone.

To be honest not really sold on that thought. You don't have to gtg, invisibility is awesome. Also you are a MC than you can shrug it off. I fail to see how and Exocrine is a bane to Riptides unless the Tau player is a moron. With 72" range the Riptide can easily stay out of the Exocrine range. They both put out a decent amount of fire power. However in a one to one match the Exocrine is out matched. The riptides have an invulnerable save that can be a 3 plus invulnerable. Against the Wraithknight knight in range it is still poorly matched up. With the Wraithknight you have to roll really high to wound while it can easily would you once or twice a turn, not to mention have a chance to instant kill you.

The crones and be easily countered by the Skyrays, but not many Tau players really play that. However heavy missles side armies can be a threat to the crones.

From the tau side and from the Tyranids side of things. I fail to see how nids would service a really good Tau list. Also Tau have the ability to recover from gtg as a warlord trait and guard have orders that does the same.

[Gleipnir]

Nids beat Tau with indirect fire, LOS blocking terrain and disruption via unit saturation, the Tau's limited mobility for Troops is what you have to exploit any halfway decent Tau has no problems w/ flyers, though Flying Monstrous creatures are also Jump infantry when gliding which allows for a decent threat range as well while taking advantage of LoS blocking terrain(just another reason a Flyrant is superior to a crone on its hey Shoot me in the sky flying stem pedestal)

[chicop76]

Nids beat Tau with indirect fire, LOS blocking terrain and disruption via unit saturation, the Tau's limited mobility for Troops is what you have to exploit any halfway decent Tau has no problems w/ flyers, though Flying Monstrous creatures are also Jump infantry when gliding which allows for a decent threat range as well while taking advantage of LoS blocking terrain(just another reason a Flyrant is superior to a crone on its hey Shoot me in the sky flying stem pedestal)

Come again. That's why you have smart missiles for starters. Even with terrain blocking a lot of line of sight if the enemy pops up their head from a building they are easily blown away. I'm used to los issues which is why I am use to moving my Tau army instead of just sitting in one spot. I use to play fish of furry, basically a lot of devilfish. Tau can be mobile if they want to be.

Still you are not really selling your case. You saying if you play against gun line tau with a bunch of line of sight blocking terrain you will win. However not every tournament is covered in terrain. You need to beat them equal in a lot of terrain and without.

Heck I like a lot of terrain to be honest. That means when you assault and fall short cause you try to assault through terrain that is another turn of blasting you out in the open. Also means I hit first, surprisingly tau can beat gaunts in combat, the 4 plus saves does help out a lot.

I think Tau vs Nids is one of the most Iconic match ups I am used to playing against. Either I am the Nid player or I am the Tau player. Either way I can always say when I win with Tau it is easier, I remember earlier editions I ran away shooting, pissed of the nid player with all the jump in transport and fly away and jsj. Typically I lost due to not holding objectives in the older editions. With nids it's pretty much dependence on what units I took out with range and how quickly I can get to point a to point b. When I win it felt like I had to put effort to do so.

Looking at the new nids I still say it's and effort to beat a good tau player. Now give me 4th edition bugs and I'll be happy and mop the floor with Tau .

[Gleipnir]

I tend to play my Fire Warriors as Gun Line and use my Stealth Teams and Crisis Teams Drones and Outflanking Kroot units for objectives hence where my experience with them is coming from, Only own 2 Devilfish at the moment :)

That said I still think Biovores and Hive Guard out of LoS, in the case of the Biovores preferably in a AV14 building that makes them Fearless and protected from return fire. Monstrous Creatures like Hive Tyrants and Harpies/Crones survive a few salvos of Smart Missiles just fine, its all the other weapons fire that wipes the floor with em.

[chicop76]

I tend to play my Fire Warriors as Gun Line and use my Stealth Teams and Crisis Teams Drones and Outflanking Kroot units for objectives hence where my experience with them is coming from, Only own 2 Devilfish at the moment :)

That said I still think Biovores and Hive Guard out of LoS, in the case of the Biovores preferably in a AV14 building that makes them Fearless and protected from return fire. Monstrous Creatures like Hive Tyrants and Harpies/Crones survive a few salvos of Smart Missiles just fine, its all the other weapons fire that wipes the floor with em.

Biovores could be a pain, unless vs O'SHOVA bomb. Anyway tor typical Tau it's something you have to grin an bear and hive guard can be devestating, the nerf bat makes them less so. However your outflankers can make a difference in these type of games. I am debating on bringing back my stealth suits, I have 14 old metal painted ones.

I recall some nid vs tau games where the outflankers will come out and kill each other. Genestealer vs stealth suits., who ever came out first typically was the first to die, too bad you can't assault after you outflank any more, was fun times.

It's seeker missiles too you have to worry about too. I have to look if seeker missiles now need line of sight to work., so use to having my pathfinders fire the missiles.

However vs guard I think no line of sight benefits them far better than with nids. Anyway unless Tau take allies. Artillery type battles isn't Tau's best quality. All I can say is move and shoot. That's why I don't play with a fire blade since I rarely sit still in one place. I typically move my Tau foward aggressively in rapid fire range and than start falling back within rapid fire range.

[chicop76]

I tend to play my Fire Warriors as Gun Line and use my Stealth Teams and Crisis Teams Drones and Outflanking Kroot units for objectives hence where my experience with them is coming from, Only own 2 Devilfish at the moment :)

That said I still think Biovores and Hive Guard out of LoS, in the case of the Biovores preferably in a AV14 building that makes them Fearless and protected from return fire. Monstrous Creatures like Hive Tyrants and Harpies/Crones survive a few salvos of Smart Missiles just fine, its all the other weapons fire that wipes the floor with em.

Biovores could be a pain, unless vs O'SHOVA bomb. Anyway tor typical Tau it's something you have to grin an bear and hive guard can be devestating, the nerf bat makes them less so. However your outflankers can make a difference in these type of games. I am debating on bringing back my stealth suits, I have 14 old metal painted ones.

I recall some nid vs tau games where the outflankers will come out and kill each other. Genestealer vs stealth suits., who ever came out first typically was the first to die, too bad you can't assault after you outflank any more, was fun times.

It's seeker missiles too you have to worry about too. I have to look if seeker missiles now need line of sight to work., so use to having my pathfinders fire the missiles.

However vs guard I think no line of sight benefits them far better than with nids. Anyway unless Tau take allies. Artillery type battles isn't Tau's best quality. All I can say is move and shoot. That's why I don't play with a fire blade since I rarely sit still in one place. I typically move my Tau foward aggressively in rapid fire range and than start falling back within rapid fire range.

[Gleipnir]

if you tag something with a markerlight then for 1 marker charge Seeker missiles ignore LoS, one of the reasons I prefer Marker drones to pathfinders, the ability to drop em where they are needed LoS or no and the ability to Jetpack away, plus relentless lets em move and mark.

[chicop76]

if you tag something with a markerlight then for 1 marker charge Seeker missiles ignore LoS, one of the reasons I prefer Marker drones to pathfinders, the ability to drop em where they are needed LoS or no and the ability to Jetpack away, plus relentless lets em move and mark.

Pathfinders can outflank, dem snap shots :*(. Anyway seeker missiles ignore cover saves. You just need to hit with a marker light and you have a strength 8 missle at bs 5 that ignores cover. I always wonder why people so adverse to using them.

I prefer pathfinders over marker drone squads since I don't need a babysitter to be with the pathfinders to make them viable and I can have more fore cheaper and produce more marker light coverage.

However marker drones in stealth, crisis, broad, or bodyguard squads are actually good, especially if they can fire seperately and have at least bs of 3. With multiple squads you can get more coverage.

[Dave Caruana]

Well then u really dnt know hw to play nids if ur telling me an exocrine cant go toe to toe with a riptide....OFCOURSE it cant!!! What im saying is, we have more options!! U SEE the exocrine as a threat, so u fire at it, not using ur skyfire on my flying circus...u use ur nova to get a 3+invul sve, risking taking a wound and not making ur shots super op, I put 3 units of 15 45poisoned attack hormagaunts in front of ur line, plus a flying circus and an exocrine or 2 (even better if I get onslaught) then well see ur target priority, u killed an exocrine? Ok I have another 2 flyrants, 2 crones, another exocrine and 3 more units of hormagaunts coming ur way, dont forget, u used ur nova to get 3+ save so no s10 shots from that big chunk of metal, meanwhile I get closer and closer....u have 5 2+ save/3+ invul save, if I tke 2 thats enough for my gaunts to mop up the rest proooobbably by the combat lhase in ur turn :) Nids arent designed to have 2 pages filled with special rules and nova this, and re roll that and we have 4 differnt options varying from s10 shots to 3+ invul save....we have lots of bugs, u kill 1 and another big boy is right behind it, u cant play nids like tau becuse if u have 4 units that can destroy a unit outright or cripple a unit badly, thats all ur gna get, 4 crippled units...trick fr playing nids..have more scary things than ur opponent can shoot...as for wraithknights....tarpit them with hormagaunts or vector strike them with crones, simple. Btw, u can have 72" movement, but if we corner u theres nowhere u can go, jump to the otherside of the board? Great, ill tarpit u with a unit of gants from my backline and stop u from shooting and take ur objective, thank you! :)
Now, an entire army of White scars that consists entirely of biker troop units of 5 all with t5, a 5+ jink save and fnp with a command squad with a 3+ jink save and fnp oh and add 3 stormtalons..now THAT is a scary army for nids... u basically have a large X amount of troop units with t5 w5 3+ save 5 cover save with a scout move of 12", movement of 12, ignore dangerous terrain 3 grav gun per unit army bolter heavy list and 3 flyers...try beat THAT with nids....

[Gleipnir]

hmm wall of text, the exorcine isn't even really a priority target in the in your point costed list and the simplest answer to dealing with it is I back up. Your hormagaunts even running full tilt eventually move into a killing field of small arms fire, the Hive Crones assuming you have 2 will be gone by turn 3 if you were lucky you used them to vector strike 2 times and then only because you made your flyrants such tasty targets they were killed first destroying your entire Synapse network, and gleefulling watching Hormagaunts eat one another, and Hive Crones decide they are better off going to ground where they are easy pickings

[chicop76]

hmm wall of text, the exorcine isn't even really a priority target in the in your point costed list and the simplest answer to dealing with it is I back up. Your hormagaunts even running full tilt eventually move into a killing field of small arms fire, the Hive Crones assuming you have 2 will be gone by turn 3 if you were lucky you used them to vector strike 2 times and then only because you made your flyrants such tasty targets they were killed first destroying your entire Synapse network, and gleefulling watching Hormagaunts eat one another, and Hive Crones decide they are better off going to ground where they are easy pickings

He makes me think all he plays is Dawn of War with Tau deploying first with nids stealing the initiative. In Vanguard and Hammer and Anvil you can easily stay 36" away from the Exocrine which will take 1 or 2 turns to get in range of something, which means by turns 3 it might be a threat.

The Centurians are way better than the Exocrine, but you get more complaints from marine players than anything else about them. If they are ok and grav cannons have a such short range, my question is why people think the Exocrine is the best thing since sliced bread.

I agree that your lack of synapse make your synapse creatures a huge target which is not that hard for Tau to kill. For example my average Tau list can easily kill both your tyrants, and possibly two Tervigons in one turn, which leaves turn 2 to wipe your synapse off the board.

You must have really bad Tau players in your area if they just stand there and don't move.

[DarkLink]

It's Tyranids, they'll take what they can get. Literally everything in their codex is outclassed by something in other books, but with no allies...

[Dave Caruana]

How much do centurians cost and how much does an exocrine cost?? Hence why I think it does its job. I dont only play dawn of war, the difference is that ur running ur venomthropes behing the exocrines an hugging cover giving most of ur units 2/3+ cover saves. The hormagaunts u basically leave a line of hormies at the back of the unit, leaving atleast 1 model of the unit within 6" of the venomthropes u cant traget the venomthropes because theyre right behind the exocrines or LOS blocking terrain. Now ur gna say ill easily ID the venomthropes, well if ud like to fire at them, be my guest, ive gt another unitnof venomthropes plus everything ive mentioned. The flyrants, I believe u have to learn how to use them, putting them behind the crones so as to get a cover save without the need of jinking, or putting them in the open when all ur other units are within assault range, so thatbur nids all attack together not in small waves which are unaffective. In any case the worst case scenario is playing tau in bammer and anvil in which yes, id probably settle for getting a draw, unless ofcourse u put objectives in a favourable position for ur nids.

[chicop76]

How much do centurians cost and how much does an exocrine cost?? Hence why I think it does its job. I dont only play dawn of war, the difference is that ur running ur venomthropes behing the exocrines an hugging cover giving most of ur units 2/3+ cover saves. The hormagaunts u basically leave a line of hormies at the back of the unit, leaving atleast 1 model of the unit within 6" of the venomthropes u cant traget the venomthropes because theyre right behind the exocrines or LOS blocking terrain. Now ur gna say ill easily ID the venomthropes, well if ud like to fire at them, be my guest, ive gt another unitnof venomthropes plus everything ive mentioned. The flyrants, I believe u have to learn how to use them, putting them behind the crones so as to get a cover save without the need of jinking, or putting them in the open when all ur other units are within assault range, so thatbur nids all attack together not in small waves which are unaffective. In any case the worst case scenario is playing tau in bammer and anvil in which yes, id probably settle for getting a draw, unless ofcourse u put objectives in a favourable position for ur nids.

Let me put this slowly. If you are winning due to a ton of los blocking terrain and the objectives happen to be in your area against Tau which is known to do poorly unless they have mobile units than no surprise you are doing decent against them.

However if you play in multiple stores and tournaments you are not blessed with a ton of los blocking terrain, which means your meta is a huge factor. Win a game with no or little Los or even tie than they are more viable.

It's like guard bragging they can beat any army if they start 90" away and have 9 bascalisk and you can't come in through reserves. Guess they would win a lot or tie.

Your comments have been heavily hinted that you use a lot of terrain that blocks line of sight. I play with a lot of line of sight blocking terrain, but now I am wondering how much you are using, to the point you have nothing but terrain on the board.

Anyway that is why I can outflank with a decent size portion of my army anyway, and ds. Had to do that against a few armies which Hammer and Anvil, objectives and a bunch of los blocking terrain screwed me up.

The thing that gets me is you didn't mention terrain blocking line of sight to your hive tyrant, which confuse me again that if I can see this guy that obviously the terrain is not blocking los as much as you say or it is short which means your guys can be on tops of buildings, imagine that.

Also I am laughing that you keep bring up jink saves and cover saves against tau. Without using a single marker light several Tau armies broadsides due to support commander, smart missiles, seek missles can flat out ignoring cover and jink saves. If you actually add in marker lights than that's additional units that can easily shoot the crap ignoring cover saves.

If I choose not to waste lights I just have a bout units of at least 6 shots ulternate shooting at flyer. Odds say 3 units should ground a flyer. Eventually I can ground it and open up with my heavy fire once it's grounded.

If I can blow away 3 daemon princes in the air and wound another in one turn of shooting, and they have invulnerable saves and Ironarm and other dumb crap on them like extra wounds, endurance, +2 invulnerable saves. What makes you think it's harder to deal with nid flyers that have no invulnerable save or have iron arm. The only difference is killing yours I have to deal with the other half of your army, killing daemons is pretty much their army.

If tau can beat daemons than I am pretty positive they can beat nids. If daemons can beat nids, which the do rather badly, got to love damonettes with + 2 invulnerable saves.

Actually Centurians can put out roughly more shooting. Actually more shooting at the around cost of an Exocrine. Heck if nids could take Centurians I would wet my pants and actually get them over the Exocrine.

The Exocrine is like have 3 plasma guns that doesn't get hot and fires double at 24" without any transport, outflanking, deepmstriking, or any other ability that guarantees you will be in shooting range. The Exocrine more accurately reminds me of the demolosher tank. You put that bad boy on the field you have a few reactions to it.

1. The enemy fires everyone into the Demolisher
2. The enemy simply stays away from the Demolosher

The Demolisher from what I seen does this good. It stops elite units from marching up the field, unless they are Link.

[chicop76]

Let me put this slowly. If you are winning due to a ton of los blocking terrain and the objectives happen to be in your area against Tau which is known to do poorly unless they have mobile units than no surprise you are doing decent against them.

However if you play in multiple stores and tournaments you are not blessed with a ton of los blocking terrain, which means your meta is a huge factor. Win a game with no or little Los or even tie than they are more viable.

It's like guard bragging they can beat any army if they start 90" away and have 9 bascalisk and you can't come in through reserves. Guess they would win a lot or tie.

Your comments have been heavily hinted that you use a lot of terrain that blocks line of sight. I play with a lot of line of sight blocking terrain, but now I am wondering how much you are using, to the point you have nothing but terrain on the board.

Anyway that is why I can outflank with a decent size portion of my army anyway, and ds. Had to do that against a few armies which Hammer and Anvil, objectives and a bunch of los blocking terrain screwed me up.

The thing that gets me is you didn't mention terrain blocking line of sight to your hive tyrant, which confuse me again that if I can see this guy that obviously the terrain is not blocking los as much as you say or it is short which means your guys can be on tops of buildings, imagine that.

Also I am laughing that you keep bring up jink saves and cover saves against tau. Without using a single marker light several Tau armies broadsides due to support commander, smart missiles, seek missles can flat out ignoring cover and jink saves. If you actually add in marker lights than that's additional units that can easily shoot the crap ignoring cover saves.

If I choose not to waste lights I just have a bout units of at least 6 shots ulternate shooting at flyer. Odds say 3 units should ground a flyer. Eventually I can ground it and open up with my heavy fire once it's grounded.

If I can blow away 3 daemon princes in the air and wound another in one turn of shooting, and they have invulnerable saves and Ironarm and other dumb crap on them like extra wounds, endurance, +2 invulnerable saves. What makes you think it's harder to deal with nid flyers that have no invulnerable save or have iron arm. The only difference is killing yours I have to deal with the other half of your army, killing daemons is pretty much their army.

If tau can beat daemons than I am pretty positive they can beat nids. If daemons can beat nids, which the do rather badly, got to love damonettes with + 2 invulnerable saves.

Actually Centurians can put out roughly more shooting. Actually more shooting at the around cost of an Exocrine. Heck if nids could take Centurians I would wet my pants and actually get them over the Exocrine.

The Exocrine is like have 3 plasma guns that doesn't get hot and fires double at 24" without any transport, outflanking, deepmstriking, or any other ability that guarantees you will be in shooting range. The Exocrine more accurately reminds me of the demolosher tank. You put that bad boy on the field you have a few reactions to it.

1. The enemy fires everyone into the Demolisher
2. The enemy simply stays away from the Demolosher

The Demolisher from what I seen does this good. It stops elite units from marching up the field, unless they are Link.

Oh. Also still putting the new nid models together. Usually you can still see parts of the Venomthorpe even behind a MC. The Exocrine is fat and plump which may block line of sight.

Still who cares about cover saves if you are mostly ignoring them anyway, also the Venomthorpe is a nice target for smartmissles

[chicop76]

It's Tyranids, they'll take what they can get. Literally everything in their codex is outclassed by something in other books, but with no allies...

I wasn't even mentioning allies. I try to avoid bringing up allies since that would make nids the worst 6th edition codex. :*(. I admit I like Tau and Daemons more than nids, but Nids is my 3rd favorite, used to be second. Anyway two out of three 9f the armies I really like to play have been updated nicely.

I still gonna play a tournament with nids, but I am thinking of using them for friendly games. They are much friendlier and I can switch to Tau or Daemons if I get tired of losing.

[Pyredragon]

So I've been following this thread since the codex came out, looking for nuggets of wisdom I can use in my own games, though after the last few pages I felt a need to weigh in.

As someone who owns and plays Tau, and now nids, Dave I seriously think you're overestimating your armies strengths. While I appreciate your enthusiasm I can't really agree that your list is as strong as you believe.

Many have pointed out that you lack synapse and counting on two flyrants against an army with a large access to skyfire weaponry that can make mincemeat of his 3+ save is probably not a good idea, never mind the grounding tests you'll make every turn. Unless your opponent doesn't believe in markerlight saturation, any smart player will deny you of your synpase and fast.

Also my Tau are in no way frightened of Crones. They will eat missle-side spam in a heartbeat and no riptide is at all worried about being vector struck by one. Remember, MC status only makes CC attacks AP 2, even a FMC only vector strikes at AP 3. Riptides and Wraithknights alike will laugh this off, and in the case of a Riptide armed with velocity tracker, turn and blow your crone out of the sky with it's ion accelator and misslepods.

Your lack of synapse in the backfield also means there is a highly likely chance your flyrants will outrange your venomthropes, who have Instinctive Behavior lurk for a 50% chance of turning and fleeing, leaving your hormagaunts out of luck.

Also smart players will not waste EVERY shot at your Flying circus. A smart tau player will direct his anti-air to removing your synapse while his gunline proceeds to lay waste to your approaching tidal wave of gaunts. One dedicated team of deep striking crisis suits armed with dual plasma will be all that's needed to turn your exocrine into paste. And remember, for a simple two tokens Markerlights strip cover, rendering your venomthrope invalid.

[AlmostMercury]

I keep waiting for daboarder to post more entries.

[Haighus]

I keep waiting for daboarder to post more entries.
Seconded.

[chicop76]

So I've been following this thread since the codex came out, looking for nuggets of wisdom I can use in my own games, though after the last few pages I felt a need to weigh in.

As someone who owns and plays Tau, and now nids, Dave I seriously think you're overestimating your armies strengths. While I appreciate your enthusiasm I can't really agree that your list is as strong as you believe.

Many have pointed out that you lack synapse and counting on two flyrants against an army with a large access to skyfire weaponry that can make mincemeat of his 3+ save is probably not a good idea, never mind the grounding tests you'll make every turn. Unless your opponent doesn't believe in markerlight saturation, any smart player will deny you of your synpase and fast.

Also my Tau are in no way frightened of Crones. They will eat missle-side spam in a heartbeat and no riptide is at all worried about being vector struck by one. Remember, MC status only makes CC attacks AP 2, even a FMC only vector strikes at AP 3. Riptides and Wraithknights alike will laugh this off, and in the case of a Riptide armed with velocity tracker, turn and blow your crone out of the sky with it's ion accelator and misslepods.

Your lack of synapse in the backfield also means there is a highly likely chance your flyrants will outrange your venomthropes, who have Instinctive Behavior lurk for a 50% chance of turning and fleeing, leaving your hormagaunts out of luck.

Also smart players will not waste EVERY shot at your Flying circus. A smart tau player will direct his anti-air to removing your synapse while his gunline proceeds to lay waste to your approaching tidal wave of gaunts. One dedicated team of deep striking crisis suits armed with dual plasma will be all that's needed to turn your exocrine into paste. And remember, for a simple two tokens Markerlights strip cover, rendering your venomthrope invalid.

Forgot the Crone had a 4 plus save, gosh they nust die to Tau missiles, heaven forbid a tau unit with missiles have sky fire or can ignore saves.

[Pyredragon]

I sense much sarcasm in you. :)

Honestly I think that's the biggest disappointment about the flyers. 5T with a 4+ SV is just begging to eat every skyfire weapon.

[daboarder]

I keep waiting for daboarder to post more entries.

Sorry, trying to slide them in between thesis work is a little tricky, but they will come.

[Tynskel]

So I've been following this thread since the codex came out, looking for nuggets of wisdom I can use in my own games, though after the last few pages I felt a need to weigh in.

As someone who owns and plays Tau, and now nids, Dave I seriously think you're overestimating your armies strengths. While I appreciate your enthusiasm I can't really agree that your list is as strong as you believe.

Many have pointed out that you lack synapse and counting on two flyrants against an army with a large access to skyfire weaponry that can make mincemeat of his 3+ save is probably not a good idea, never mind the grounding tests you'll make every turn. Unless your opponent doesn't believe in markerlight saturation, any smart player will deny you of your synpase and fast.

Also my Tau are in no way frightened of Crones. They will eat missle-side spam in a heartbeat and no riptide is at all worried about being vector struck by one. Remember, MC status only makes CC attacks AP 2, even a FMC only vector strikes at AP 3. Riptides and Wraithknights alike will laugh this off, and in the case of a Riptide armed with velocity tracker, turn and blow your crone out of the sky with it's ion accelator and misslepods.

Your lack of synapse in the backfield also means there is a highly likely chance your flyrants will outrange your venomthropes, who have Instinctive Behavior lurk for a 50% chance of turning and fleeing, leaving your hormagaunts out of luck.

Also smart players will not waste EVERY shot at your Flying circus. A smart tau player will direct his anti-air to removing your synapse while his gunline proceeds to lay waste to your approaching tidal wave of gaunts. One dedicated team of deep striking crisis suits armed with dual plasma will be all that's needed to turn your exocrine into paste. And remember, for a simple two tokens Markerlights strip cover, rendering your venomthrope invalid.

wow, I didn't know that Tau had unlimited firepower and markerlights. I guess they really can just shoot everything to little bits.

Nevermind the fact that a crone probably won't bother with a riptide, and more likely will will just want to Instant Death your crisis suits. Or maybe that Biovores will just pulverize your Pathfinders into mush...

[Tynskel]

Sorry, trying to slide them in between thesis work is a little tricky, but they will come.

doing this inbetween a thesis, eh?
Here's a hint. Wait until you are done with your thesis...

[DarkLink]

wow, I didn't know that Tau had unlimited firepower and markerlights. I guess they really can just shoot everything to little bits.


Considering that I feel pretty much the same way about my Eldar vs Nids... yeah. Pretty much.

[daboarder]

doing this inbetween a thesis, eh?
Here's a hint. Wait until you are done with your thesis...

eh 15 minutes of my time to throw up a unit entry I can just afford every now and then, if oonly as an investment for my sanity,

[Pyredragon]

wow, I didn't know that Tau had unlimited firepower and markerlights. I guess they really can just shoot everything to little bits.


Considering godly amounts of firepower is kind of the tau's thing... My write up is more in response to Daves tactics and list, which by the way makes no mention of biovores and he's convinced Crones are for MC hunting.

Now if I had to worry about biovores or mawlocs, then I'd probably be a little more worried.

[Tynskel]

eh 15 minutes of my time to throw up a unit entry I can just afford every now and then, if oonly as an investment for my sanity,

There is no sanity until thesis is done! :)

[chicop76]

Considering godly amounts of firepower is kind of the tau's thing... My write up is more in response to Daves tactics and list, which by the way makes no mention of biovores and he's convinced Crones are for MC hunting.

Now if I had to worry about biovores or mawlocs, then I'd probably be a little more worried.

Yeah Biovores and Mawlocks is a problem against Tau. If the Mawlock hit it's a problem since it can disappear and do it again and again, if it misses you kinda have to kill it. With 2 or 3 in your face it is a problem. Biovores is a problem unless you are playing O'SHOVA bomb or a decent amount of out flankers.

The crone can kill MCs with a 3+ save pretty well or other flying creatures, I played flying circus against flying circus and vector striking dies hurt. However it's crazy to suggest vector striking is viable against models with a 2 plus armour save like riptides, it's pretty absurd.

Not saying his list is bad, kinda was thinking of that build at first. Just that it will die to a decent Tau player with a brain and a decent list.

[Dave Caruana]

Sorry had lots of work lately and cudnt reply. Pyredragon, chicop, im not saying were betterbthan tau or we can always beat tau im just saying that with the rightbtactics and goodbtarget priority and some goodntricks or bait here and there nids can compete!! For example u said my flyrants are easy kills, thats true, I have to play them well or probably make something else a threat or keep them away for the beginning, but there isnt much better synapse than them, warriorsmare s8 weapon magnets so im left with zoanthropes or a trygon prime, I believe in 2 units of venomthropes because I dont make a list tailored for eldar or tau, but against most armies thatbextra cover is a life saver! So thatbleaves me with 1 unit of zoanthropes. IMHO Exocrine beats biovore, I prefer it, its more mobile, its more survivable and is an MC, mawloc is too random andnagainst flyer heavynlistsbdo nothing and in my meta tehir are alot of heavy flier lists.

Crones vs tau cant do much as its ap 3 and if I go in combat witha riptide 1 wound and its dead from smash, so id rather get 2 in front of ur broadsides, right in front of them, and hope u fire everything at them so they dont put ur broadsides in combat, if u kill them, most everything else survived, if not I tarpit ur broadsides, or I go with the drool cannon and target ur pathfinders, doing the same thing, af5erball u cant have infinite units of pathfinders therefore u cant have infinite ignore cover, when they go down ur ignores civer goes down significantly, then my fenomthropes do their job. Best mix IMHO for tau is to have marker drones of smaller amounts in smaller units, means u can have marker lights on more enemy units, however then ud have to fire most units on 1 target (unless u have splitfire :) ) so basically I see marker drones and/or pathfinders they become my target number 1 and broadsides target number 2 :)

[Dave Caruana]

Oh and I believe wraithknights have a 3+save so vector striking them is quite good, but I wound on 4+...which isnt that bad either

[AlmostMercury]

Nevermind the fact that a crone probably won't bother with a riptide,


Probably true.



and more likely will will just want to Instant Death your crisis suits.


This is preventable through positioning.



Or maybe that Biovores will just pulverize your Pathfinders into mush...


He was referring to Dave's skeleton of 2 Flyrants, 2+ Crones, 2- Exocrines. Dave was not really discussing the excellence or necessity of Biovores, so it's a moot point.

[DarkLink]

This is preventable through positioning.


Vector Strike wounds are technically allocated randomly, I believe. Not that anyone actually uses random wound allocation.

[Aegwymourn]

Vector Strike wounds are technically allocated randomly, I believe. Not that anyone actually uses random wound allocation.

I think he meant that with only 24" of movement it shouldn't be to hard to keep the crisis suits away with their 6+2d6 movement.

[daboarder]

Vector Strike wounds are technically allocated randomly, I believe. Not that anyone actually uses random wound allocation.

wasn't it FAQ'd to be from the direction where the flier ends its movement?

[AlmostMercury]

I think he meant that with only 24" of movement it shouldn't be to hard to keep the crisis suits away with their 6+2d6 movement.

This. When you have an army as mobile and shooty as Tau, you should be able to leverage that against a 24" straight line by moving or blocking movement.

[chicop76]

Now if you are playing with so much terrain that Tau have line of sight issues, my question would be the Exocrine would suffer from having los issues as well.

I don't see the reason why people don't want to run warriors. People run crisis suits and they can be instant killed as well. Unless I can lay down some strength 8 pie plates I would be more worried about let's say a flying hive tyrant than several warriors, unless you have an army of warriors.

The problem with the crones is Tau have a lot of strength 7 ap 4 shooting, and skyfire is given out like candy with this army. Which translates into dead crones. Especially if they park in front of misslesides with skyfire.

You misunderstand what I am getting at. I'm not saying nids can't beat Tau. I am saying Tau have an easier time beating nids than Nids do beating Tau.

Also your tactics isn't the best vs Tau itself. Tau can kill a lot. The issue is getting to point A to point B with enough models in tact. The best tactics is seen that work vs Tau is to have enough shooting to damage key units so you can get your melee units in combat. 4th edition nids did that nicely. 5th edition nids revolved around endurance. 6th edition will have to be s hooty and depend on catalyst to keep your things a live.

The more I think about the Tervigon the more I am thinking to running probably only one or two. I am thinking of going back to my warrior days for added fire support. Against Tau for example the only viable strength 8 weapon Tau really have is the strength 8 pie plates from the Riptides, which means less shooting at my big stuff. If the warrior brood is big enough the Tau player won't waste seeker missles into them and I'm the only Tau player I seen run rail sides, even though I probably be using them on bigger targets.

Also not even comparing Tau, not many armies have a ton of strength 8 and higher weapons and would use them to instant kill warriors instead of shooting your MCs, unless you're playing against dark eldar. S hooty Dark Eldar can do some nasty things to nids, also wracks can make for nice anti nid melee.

My complaint is why run a dakka fex when I can run an Exocrine. Besides heavy support, elites, and hq, you really don't have a hard fire base. Warriors can do anti troop ranged, but can't really threaten units like riptides. Also relying on vector strikes isn't that good, especially against anti air. Now if it was a hellturkey with vector 8 striking than that would be a ton better.

[chicop76]

Why Biovores are actually worst in 6th?

In 5th all you had to do was keep them in terrain and they could be left out of synapse range. They could be in the back field throwing mines from the back field all day with no worries.

I know mines are more powerful, Biovores have extra wounds, and they are cheap, so how can they bee worst he might say.

Well they are worst due to the change in IB. Due to the change in IB if you are out of synapse they can't shoot at anything unless they can actually see it. What's worst is even if they can see it they have a 50% chance of going to ground and not being able to shoot, unless I miss something with them being able to shoot mines as snap shots. Any way the other 50% you can shoot at the closest visbale target with a 1/6 chance of getting preferred enemy.

This means in 6th you need a synapse babysitter which turns the cheap unit into a more expensive unit since you need something parked near the Biovore so it can do something.

Honestly the new synapse forces you to move the Biovore with your army, exposing it to threats it usually wouldn't be exposed to, hince why the extra wounds.

A good tactic would be to kill the nearby synapse and leave it alone. With a leadership of 6 it won't be able to do much unless it passes an IB test.

This is why no Biovores for me.

Looking at the Exocrine even though it is fearless it is still susceptible to IB checks. Leadership 7 is a bit better which means it have a 50% chance of failing it's checks. On the bright side if it does fail it would fire at the closest unit it sees, better than not doing anything. Also it have a 1/6 chance of getting preferred enemy.

The negatives isn't that bad and once down range it doesn't mean it needs much babysitting. On the negative side it won't be able to shoot at what you want it to roughly half the time out of synapse. A savvy player would keep high armoured units back and weaker armoured units up front. Heck this is where I say a transport would shine since putting it as the closest model would force the Exocrine to fire at the transport instead of your troops if it fails IB. Another negative is if it fails IB it can't assault.

With negatives aside still usable with or without synapse around, just need babysitter if you are moving up the first few rounds.

Tyrannofex. They made it cheaper and it's leadership 8, which means less chance of failing IB. Ranged strength 10 makes it good vs vehicles, but poor ap makes it less desirable against low or no vehicle armies.

I used it before. It it a good unit to hide your other units behind since it have a 2 plus save. The double flame threat is nothing to underestimate. The main problem is you don't need more anti troop.

Not sure what I think about this unit. If the strength 10 weapon was ap 2 I would take it.

What's good about the Mawlock is it wreaks things if it hits on target. It is also the most price efficient model you have in your army. With leadership 8 ib isn't too big a deal, it shouldn't be since it is usually by itself. If you fail IB than you would assault the closest unit, which may be a bad thing.

Anyway besides the deepmstrike issues it's not a bad unit. I definitely would take at least one.

Trygon. Leadership 8 with feed. Not really feeling this guy. I would rather run a Mawlock.

Trygon Prime. A deepmstrike MC with synapse. Not bad for getting your troops to band together where needed. Have options, but this guy isn't cheap. Still not bad. In higher cost games I would run one for more synapse.

Carnifexes. Basically the same thing as I said with a Biovore. Leadership 7 is ot to bad, but I would have a tyrant prime keep them in check.

They are cheaper, but kinda require a babysitter. Can be awesome with catalyst and a prime. I'm not a fan of deathstars so not a fan of this unit. It's a unit that most armies would rather avoid than try to deal with it sort of thing.

If it tickles your fancy than it isn't bad.

That's how I see our heavy support options.

My issue with the Exocrine it is the more reliable model vs a ride tide, which a Riptide can easily move further and shoot further which makes it not that great vs a Riptide. The only other models that comes close in range is the Zonathropes which I would choose Zonathropes over an Exocrine due to Zonathropes have powers and are synapse, the +3 invulnerable is nice too. After that you have to hope your casters get warp blast. Another issue is deny the witch which makes taking the Exocrine more likely.

Against the meta you are kinda forced to take an ok model which you need like 3 to deal with the Riptide threat. However they can't really deal with them at all which is the most irritating part about them. If they are dumb enough to stay within 24, and if they don't use their 3+ invulnerable or fail to get it. You might a best wound it twice on average. Even if it stays within 24 and pops it's invulnerable save you will be lucky to wound it once. Oh that's not even counting if it has fnp or not. On return fire it can put any where from 2-4 wounds on the Exocrine depending on powers, etc. Count in Tau nust killing the nearby synapse and staying out the range of the Exocrine I just don't see it as a great unit and only an ok unit. It reminds me of using guard plasma gunners in Chimeria's, ok not great.

[Dave Caruana]

Chicop76 yes I agree with u on the fact that nids find it harder to beat tau than viceversa. Also your opinion about the HS options is prettybaccurate to what I think also, for example the tyrannofex, I agree if it were only ap2.....but thats whybi go for exocrine, for that simple reason, if u have any high armour value units, u bettervleave them in cover cos if not, theyre gone. While the double templTe has good potential, for its pts cost of just under a flyrant, I feel it wont get its moneys worth everytime.
As for the crones....I agree that theyre not the best option to take vs tau!!! No real target for tentaclids (as nobody I know really plays anything with armour value in a tau list in 1850pts games), tau have very mobile units, and mostly every valuable target has a 2+ save. On the otherhand u have to realise that I cant tailor make a list for tau, if I could it would be very different! However I have to make lists that counter eldar, 3 hellturkeys+2 vendetta lists, 3 hellturkeys+2 deamon princes of tzeentch and kairos, 3 vendettas in a list, 3 stormtalons plus a list full of bikers which are troops and t5 and have scout rule.... and many more, my meta and that in etc is 1 that includes many flyers and in that meta, that is where 3 crones+2 flyrants do their job. Against tau, my crones would probablly sacrifice themselves in front of certain units (broadsides and pathdinders) to get shot down hence saving other more useful units to survive.

[chicop76]

My point on the Exocrine is they are ok vs Wraithknights, the grey knight walker, dreadnougts. Etc. They are good vs toughness 6 /7 MCs with bad invulnerable saves and terminator type units without storm shields. Against oblits the oblits can say out of Range as well as Centurians. Bikes can easily out maneuver and stay out of range. The list goes on.

Against everyone else the Venomthorpe make the Exocrine more viable. Which means everyone else would probably go for the Venomthorpes to get rid of shrouding and fnp.

Since you brought up Daemons. I fail to see how nids would fair against Daemons. The only thing you have vs Daemons is depending on the Damon player warpstorm and riftbringer rolling they can spam daemons for free. They excellent in combat. They excell in psychic powers. The only thing you really have is the numbers and a little bit more s hooty.

However vs daemons the Soulgringers can turn your crones into swiss cheese. Also the skullcannon can kill your guys denying cover saves via Venomthorpes. It is possible for it to instant kill your Thorpe. Also throw in 're rerollable 2plus invulnerable saves I just don't see it.

I smashed nids with daemons before the codex upgrade. Invulnerable saving hounds of 2 plus with flame shield. Invisibility, endurance is quite good. Tied up most of the nid army every time with one unit.

Again I think daemons will win an air battle due to soulgrinders and the fact daemons have invulnerable saves.

Against serpent spam I don't see it either since the eldar can sit back and blow away most of your air force before you can do anything.

I see necrons still being a problem. Same with grey knights and dark eldar.

Against CSM and Dark Angels I think we will have a field day. I think we are on equal terms with marines, they do have anti air which works rather well vs the crones.

Thinking about it. It is almost like the anti air is made to kill crones, especially when it is 4 strength 7 ap 4 shots heading your way.

[Sly]

[This means in 6th you need a synapse babysitter which turns the cheap unit into a more expensive unit since you need something parked near the Biovore so it can do something. ]

Well... there are often objectives in your backfield. What are you using to score those objectives? If it's Gaunts, you need to babysit THOSE. If it's a Tervigon, while it scores and buffs and provides Synapse, that seems like too many points spent on that.

I think that a squad of Warriors with a cannon are almost mandatory if you run Biovores, but they're not just a babysitting service. They score, protect the backfield against light contesting units such as 5 Bikes or an Assault Bike or something else that might otherwise come in and contest, and they provide another large pinning blast.

So, 3 Warriors with a Barbed Strangler and 3 Biovores... I'd almost start every single Nid list with that. Backfield scoring is necessary, and it's a bonus when it can add decent firepower (for a backfield Troop unit) and provide Synapse. You want the Biovores against Tau for sure, and against Eldar usually (to kill the hiding Jetbikes).

Crones/Flyrants are good against Eldar but not so good against Tau, so if you go with FMCs you pretty much need to add in other units that are good against Tau 2+ saves (Mawloc or Exocrine).

I think that the core of a competitive list would be 1-2 Flyrants, 1-2 Crones, 3 Warriors, 3 Biovores, and 1 Mawloc or 1 Exocrine. After that you pick what you want, another Crone or more Gargoyles, a lot of Devilgaunts or some cheap ones plus a Tervigon, another Exocrine or a T-Fex or a C-Fex brood.

[AlmostMercury]

Well they are worst due to the change in IB. Due to the change in IB if you are out of synapse they can't shoot at anything unless they can actually see it. What's worst is even if they can see it they have a 50% chance of going to ground and not being able to shoot, unless I miss something with them being able to shoot mines as snap shots. Any way the other 50% you can shoot at the closest visbale target with a 1/6 chance of getting preferred enemy.

This means in 6th you need a synapse babysitter which turns the cheap unit into a more expensive unit since you need something parked near the Biovore so it can do something.

Honestly the new synapse forces you to move the Biovore with your army, exposing it to threats it usually wouldn't be exposed to, hince why the extra wounds.


Even though Biovores probably can't fire outside of synapse, they're one of the few Infantry units that return immediately to maximum effectiveness when re-entering synapse. The Biovores will fall out of synapse on either your assault phase, or the opponents turn. Let's assume they fail their IB test, and can't fire because they're out of LOS. If on your movement phase you can get them back into synapse, they haven't fallen back, nor taken wounds, instead they're back to their full effectiveness.

Moreover, synapse coverage is mostly a list building decision. If you want less synapse coverage, Mawlocs have an advantage. If you're building with more coverage, it's almost irrelevant.

As I've said, one of the benefits of the Mawloc is that, as far as what you should be doing with it, it's immune to IB. You don't assault the closest unit, you burrow. If you've purchased a Mawloc and you are not going for the maximum number of AP 2 Ignore Cover Blasts, you're doing it wrong.

So, now we look at what we get on average from 120 points of Biovore and 140 points of Mawloc. If you choose your target to maximize blasts, the Mawloc gets 4 S6 AP2 Ignores Cover large blasts in 5 turns, and a miss gets you nothing. There is a chance, that a Mawloc gets you 8 of those blasts, but that is a high variance outcome.

A unit of 3 Biovores on the other hand will get you no less than 15 S4 AP4 large blasts, and every miss gets you d3 spore mines.

Without the variance, I don't think 4 Mawloc blasts is better than 15 Biovore blasts. Personally, I'd need 5+ to feel that the Mawloc was exclusively worth taking over the Biovores, because I prefer consistency over variance.

Taking a Mawloc over Biovores is not a strictly better decision, instead it's the decision to opt for more powerful blasts at the risk of much higher variance. Variance that includes the possible death of the Mawloc and giving up 1 VP without the opponent needing to use their turn resources (shoots or assaults) against it.

[AlmostMercury]

Well... there are often objectives in your backfield. What are you using to score those objectives? If it's Gaunts, you need to babysit THOSE. If it's a Tervigon, while it scores and buffs and provides Synapse, that seems like too many points spent on that.


No, Tervigons are still good. If the Synapse backlash was still 6", then taking two would be a no brainer even with all of the other nerfs. With backlash as is, it's just a choice between 1 or 2, depending on the rest of your list.

[Angelofblades]

Just an observation, but even if you do have a homefield objective, just because of the the way things are for nids, why wouldn't you just throw everything you have and the kitchen sink at your opponent's lines. Every army list I've looked at, a majority of the comments have been the same, "ooh, your lacking synapse, oh, target saturation, ohh all your synapse is going to die etc."

So if the aim is to keep enough synapse while maintaining target saturation, why no move everything up the board. It looks like the Tervigon is you most economical bet for midfield synapse. Since it seems that Flyrants have an affinity of ploughing the ground quite early.

Fill your HS slots with large MC's ie Exocrines, T-Fexs and Carni's, walk venoms and a troop tervigon behind and little gribbles where you please. Toss in a pinch of flyrant with a sneeze of crones, and handful of zoeys. If you still want to keep that homefield objective, either take a unit of outflanking "dont really care about synapse," stealers to take objectives late in the game, or chance a spawned unit of termagants to sit on an objcetive out of synapse and say to hell with it.

I mean, if your multi-objectives game is such that it's the last person holding the most objectives that wins, what does it matter how many you hold at the beginning or the middle of the game? Commit all your forces to kick them off their objectives, this way you can claim linebreaker as well as any objectives that you snag along the way.

Isn't that the way of the hive mind? Consume and move on?

[Sonikgav]

Ive fallen into the Tervigon 'goalkeeper' tactic, babysitting a set of Biovores with 2x2 Zoeys running up the middle for Coverage and the Flyrant advancing at the front (read: Getting shot to crap). One Crone for enemy Flyers/Vehicles and an Exocrine/Mawloc for Heavy Infantry.

Throw in small gribbles to add up the points/swarm the field.

[Angelofblades]

Just an observation, but even if you do have a homefield objective, just because of the the way things are for nids, why wouldn't you just throw everything you have and the kitchen sink at your opponent's lines. Every army list I've looked at, a majority of the comments have been the same, "ooh, your lacking synapse, oh, target saturation, ohh all your synapse is going to die etc."

So if the aim is to keep enough synapse while maintaining target saturation, why no move everything up the board. It looks like the Tervigon is you most economical bet for midfield synapse. Since it seems that Flyrants have an affinity of ploughing the ground quite early.

Fill your HS slots with large MC's ie Exocrines, T-Fexs and Carni's, walk venoms and a troop tervigon behind and little gribbles where you please. Toss in a pinch of flyrant with a sneeze of crones, and handful of zoeys. If you still want to keep that homefield objective, either take a unit of outflanking "dont really care about synapse," stealers to take objectives late in the game, or chance a spawned unit of termagants to sit on an objcetive out of synapse and say to hell with it.

I mean, if your multi-objectives game is such that it's the last person holding the most objectives that wins, what does it matter how many you hold at the beginning or the middle of the game? Commit all your forces to kick them off their objectives, this way you can claim linebreaker as well as any objectives that you snag along the way.

Isn't that the way of the hive mind? Consume and move on?

[chicop76]

I'm with Angel with their line of thinking. Not saying Biovores are bad. I have mentioned them and gave them positive reviews. All that being said if your goal is to keep them back field you need something kept back to keep them in working order.

My problem with Biovores is they don't cover the really annoying units. They are great anti troop and do help on overwatch. However you have a ton of anti troop, just not enough units to deal with broadside type units or riptides. Hince why I favor the Mawlock.

The Trygon prime I found really helps with synapse. The problem with taking one is you don't have slots for Biovores, Exocrine, and Mawlock.

[Gleipnir]

for their cost in a bunker, still gotta go with Biovores over extra Mawlocs if you have no LoS to any targets within 48" presumably because someone surrounded your fortification with ruins, then yes you have to park a babysitter near them but you likely have a ton of LoS blocking cover to put them in nearby as a result.

Rending Claws is the best counter to Broadsides and Riptides, the issue is delivering them in asaault on majority of models with a 5+ armor save

[Tynskel]

Just an observation, but even if you do have a homefield objective, just because of the the way things are for nids, why wouldn't you just throw everything you have and the kitchen sink at your opponent's lines. Every army list I've looked at, a majority of the comments have been the same, "ooh, your lacking synapse, oh, target saturation, ohh all your synapse is going to die etc."

So if the aim is to keep enough synapse while maintaining target saturation, why no move everything up the board. It looks like the Tervigon is you most economical bet for midfield synapse. Since it seems that Flyrants have an affinity of ploughing the ground quite early.

Fill your HS slots with large MC's ie Exocrines, T-Fexs and Carni's, walk venoms and a troop tervigon behind and little gribbles where you please. Toss in a pinch of flyrant with a sneeze of crones, and handful of zoeys. If you still want to keep that homefield objective, either take a unit of outflanking "dont really care about synapse," stealers to take objectives late in the game, or chance a spawned unit of termagants to sit on an objcetive out of synapse and say to hell with it.

I mean, if your multi-objectives game is such that it's the last person holding the most objectives that wins, what does it matter how many you hold at the beginning or the middle of the game? Commit all your forces to kick them off their objectives, this way you can claim linebreaker as well as any objectives that you snag along the way.

Isn't that the way of the hive mind? Consume and move on?

I'm glad *someone* knows how to play bugs...
All bugs are Assault Weapons. Which ultimately means: Assault Assault Assault. Everything Every single bug should be trying to eat your opponent!

[Anggul]

I think the only decent way for us to deal with Riptides is to bite the bullet (or particle as it were) and get into close combat with them. MCs (other than the flyers which will be smashed) or Rending will do a number on them and have a fair chance of breaking them and running them down. It will be difficult getting there, but I think it's more likely to work than futile attempts at shooting them to death. The same goes for Broadsides unless you get a lucky direct hit with a Mawloc, in which case that's probably a full trio removed. That's why I'm not wanting to risk relying on Mawlocs though, they seem like too much of a gamble, if you roll an arrow it's probably going to go way off-target. Rushing them in melee seems a much harder prospect but more reliable than just hoping for a hit.

[John Alva Kay]

I think the only decent way for us to deal with Riptides is to bite the bullet (or particle as it were) and get into close combat with them. MCs (other than the flyers which will be smashed) or Rending will do a number on them and have a fair chance of breaking them and running them down. It will be difficult getting there, but I think it's more likely to work than futile attempts at shooting them to death. The same goes for Broadsides unless you get a lucky direct hit with a Mawloc, in which case that's probably a full trio removed. That's why I'm not wanting to risk relying on Mawlocs though, they seem like too much of a gamble, if you roll an arrow it's probably going to go way off-target. Rushing them in melee seems a much harder prospect but more reliable than just hoping for a hit.

I agree with this. Get that Flying Hive Tyrant into CC where he should be!

[chicop76]

I think the only decent way for us to deal with Riptides is to bite the bullet (or particle as it were) and get into close combat with them. MCs (other than the flyers which will be smashed) or Rending will do a number on them and have a fair chance of breaking them and running them down. It will be difficult getting there, but I think it's more likely to work than futile attempts at shooting them to death. The same goes for Broadsides unless you get a lucky direct hit with a Mawloc, in which case that's probably a full trio removed. That's why I'm not wanting to risk relying on Mawlocs though, they seem like too much of a gamble, if you roll an arrow it's probably going to go way off-target. Rushing them in melee seems a much harder prospect but more reliable than just hoping for a hit.

I haven't used the Mawlock, but I have used Trygons against tau. In the case of the Trygon the Tau player had to kill the big ugly so it didn't eat their face off. The problem with doing so is you have several big uglies running down the field with their small friends.

Throw in the Mawlock it should cause the same disruption or do some damage at 60-70 points lower than what the Trygon did l.

The only problem I have is without the doom it kinda kills the whole hit hard deep strike assault, since I can take a few guys down shooting. The Mawlock however comes in and blast your guys twice and says hello shoot me or I do it again or smash your Bascalisk that is parked nearby. It frees up people trying to take out your synapse.

[Halollet]

My answer to riptides is my flyrant because I go full assault with him. Bone sword and whip with talons gives me an extra attack and the possibility for Instant Death. Now throw in poison attacks and anything that doesn't wound, you get to reroll, meaning you have lots of chances to get that one 6 and just end the riptide then and there. Even if he has his shield up and FNP, I would still go toe to toe with it because its only hitting my tyrant on a 5+ with only 2-3 attacks.

I play tau and that nova reactor is an unwieldy beast and you don't get FNP against wounds that cause ID so I'm not worried about that at all.

The riptide could also just run and would be easily cut down!

Another way is if you can multi assault some FireWarriors and a Riptide with a brood of hormies. Direct all your attacks against the FWs, win combat, and then catch them and cut them down. The odds of you pulling this off is low, but its still an option to keep an eye out for!

[daboarder]

Tyrant Guard


Tyrant guard, well.....they guard your tyrant?


Nah these are great, Honestly the best way to look at them is that you have essentially bought your tyrant an extra two wounds. Not only that, but because they automatically pass LOS! tests when a tyrant is joined to them you are essentially buying yourself a pseudo eternal warrior (seriously there is nothing worse than losing the swarmlord to a wraithknight first shot of a game)

NOTE: Blind rampage....that rule is never likely to come up so don't really take it into consideration, if something does manage to kill you tyrant before the guard....well then you've got other problems.

There are two ways to really run your guard squads.

The first is with a tyrant,
Only take them if you are going for a brick build, not only is it controversial whether a winged tyrant may leave the guard (I'm of the opinion that they can) but ultimately you are taking a flying tyrant for speed and the guard only offers effective protection turn 1 so why spend the points for an option that you only need half the time, especially when you can just reserve your flyrant in a pinch.

If you are taking guards for a walkrant then the first thing you obviously need to do is match their roles. there is no point taking adrenal glands on the guard if the tyrant does not have them, and vice versa. realistically if you are taking guard with your walkrant then the main reason you are taking them is for wounds and any of the upgrades you buy are basically just spending points on models that are there to die so with the exception of adrenal glands there's never really a point to taking them if you're running them with a walkrant.

The optimal number of guard for a walkrant tends to be two, one guard is easy for an opponent to drop with volume fire before opening up on the tyrant with the big guns, and three is a huge points investment (that unit hits 300-350 pts) and isn't terribly survivable for it. Two guards however is a nice sweet spot, netting you four wounds (making your tyrant an eight wound MC for most intents and purposes) and two Eternal Warrior saves.

The second way to run Tyrant guard is far more interesting.
See if you are running a winged tyrant (as many people will be) you still have the option of buying the tyrant guard and letting them do their own thing. and a T6 3+ critter with access to FC, fleet, rending, poison for 58pts....well it's not actually something your opponent can ignore. And because they are slotless they don't eat a precious HS.

If you're doing this then look at running 3 guards instead of 1 or two, use them as a mini line breaker, and in an edition where most lists focus on shooting they are good at beating most units you'll see in combat, as well as absorbing overwatch fire before your gaunts hit the enemy.

You can also attach a prime to this style of squad but at that point your buying a prime instead of a tyrant.

Finally I wouldn't really ever buy the crushing claws or the lash whip and boneswords on the unit, you want to keep them cheap when they're with a tyrant (who is already able to mince units those weapons would be good against) and when they are running solo you can get a carnifex for the point you would spend on two guards with those upgrades.

edit: Just putting this here. You don't need to drop the guard first, particularly if you are running a regen tyrant, there are a number of ways you can shift the wounds around the unit.
ie: if the tyrant is up front, take the first two wound on him, then pass the rest for that turn onto the closest guard. Next turn you can regen one of those wounds, re-position the unit and pass the wounds onto the new Guard. It can, depending on the rate the wounds are done at and regen rolls, take up to 5 unsaved wounds before a model in this unit drops.

In other words don't be afraid of running your tyrant in front of the unit, eating two wounds on the tyrant early means it takes 4 wounds to drop a guard, and there is very little in the game able to stip those last tow wounds off the tyrant before the other guard drops.

[carny]

Good to see that this thread lives again :)

[Anggul]

I don't think I would ever run Tyrant Guard without a Tyrant. As a unit by themselves they're worse than, say, a Trygon for not many less points. I suppose they don't take a slot so there is that, but in terms of cost to effectiveness they're pretty poor. I'm also hesitant using them at all as they're huge but only have 2 wounds, seems really silly. I would pay more points for them to have 3 wounds as they should.

[daboarder]

you get 6 T6 wounds with fleet at 165 pts so 30 pts cheaper than a trygon, through on poison for another 9 pts.....and they can potentially have a place with 4 S6 rending poison attacks on the charge.

Its not fantastic but it may have possibilities

[daboarder]

Old One Eye:

Jokes aside, seriously old one eye and the red terror appearing in the same book. that's not subtle at all.

OOE is a big beefy CC carnifex...in the HQ slot, there is not really much to say so I will keep this short.
The fact that he takes up a HQ slot sets off the first warning bells on this guy, he doesn't really offer anything beyond himself in this role, no FOC changes, no carni buffs, no real point to being in the HQ slot. Stops you buying another much needed synapse creature and his LD bubble is negligible with on Ld8.

His warlord trait is situational, it suffers from the same problem as regeneration, in that if the opponent focus fires him to death then it never comes into play, and unlike tyrants or primes that can roll this trait up he does not have the option of hiding in a unit and LOS!ing wounds off him just to unlock it for next turn.
He also suffers from the same problem that has plagued CC fexes every edition, he is SLOOOWWW!

Like really slow and has no means of overcoming it. This limits his use and deployment options, if you are going to use him then the best bet is to point him towards an opponents gunline or the middle objective on the board T1 and just let him go in that direction, don't try change target mid game.

Bezerker rampage is the only thing he really has going for him , meaning that on the charge he gets a rough average of 9 attacks (6 charging, 3 extra) plus his D3 hammer of wrath attacks mean that this guy will mess up most units he runs into if he gets there. At S10 his 2D6 to pen just adds the insult to the injury when he hits a vehicle in CC it dies, messily!

Just remember that you can get more tailored carnifex broods for significantly less points, yes they eat a HS slot, but they also come in broods, can be faster, and can by ranged weapons.

Personally I can't ever see myself running OOE, if he had a return to life rule similar to thrawn or celestine, (OR HE USED TO) then maybe he would have a place in a nid list but without that he's just a slow CC fex in the wrong spot really.

[daboarder]

Terviogn:
Cannot be your warlord, almost no reason to ever take these it HQ slots, will cover in the troops section

[daboarder]

Tyranid Prime:

Primes aren't very good, they are twice the price of similar IC's for no real benefit.

There are very few situations where a prime is worth taking over a tyrant or something else. In comparison to a tyrant primes are 40 pts cheaper but have: -2 Ws, -1 S, -1T, -1 W, - 2 Master levels, -AP2

The big bonus of the prime is that they also have the IC character rule, so if you're not running a brick tyrant or a flyrant then you can consider the prime for his ability to hide in units. The units you run him in will determine the role your prime plays and ultimately if you take one or not.

The obvious brood to run the prime in is the warriors, he gives the squad +1WS and BS and can sit up the front to soak those S8 wounds that they hate.
This is a reasonable use for the prime but you have to consider that for similar points you could get another 4 warriors. With this in mind you only really want to consider taking a prime in warrior squads when the squad is already large and your troops slots are full preventing you grabbing another squad of warriors.

Another way to run the prime emphasizes his T5 in order to treat him as an ID soak for our vulnerable support units. he sits around with a unit of venomthropes, or zoanthropes. In this case you still keep the prime up the front to eat S8-9 wounds and pass the others around.
This is particularly tasty with venomthropes, as the prime gets shrouded, and also turns the unit into a synapse node.
It is however less viable for zoanthropes who have a 3++ to already protect them from incidental S8-9 shots and are cheap enough that you can get 3 of them for the price of a kitted prime.
You can also run him in a unit of tyrant guard if you have a flyrant, giving you a mini-prime star. But for the extra points, just buy a naked tyrant.
If your running the prime in this way you really need to consider whether keeping the unit alive is worth the points of the prime.

The third way to run the prime is as a glorified squad leader. stick him in a big unit of gant. The premise is that you get yourself a hard to shift synapse node that is scoring. But once you kit out the prime you get kind of close to a tervigon in points and really, a unit of gant, even at full strength isn't that hard to shift given that it cannot go to ground unlike guard blobs or cultist hordes.

So now that we have considered where to put a prime IF you take it lets look at the gear he can get.

REGEN: No longer the cheap why not option but now much more likely to come into play, depending on the role of the prime this is still a decent buy

Because they are slow you should always consider taking a gun on them, a quick trade for the deathspitter is usually a good chiose as that way the prime matches most of the units you would actually run him with. The prime is also a good platform for the miasma cannon, he doesn't get access to the heavier weapons therefore there is no real overlap between the choosing the miasma cannon and another weapon. Plus when operating in a defensive role the template option iss nice for both clearing out the enemy and accepting charges.

I wouldn't kit the prime out for CC, once you start adding the bonuses to him then he quickly reaches the point where a hive tyrant is cheaper. If you do want a CC prime then adrenal glands are a must for Fleet, with the option of rending claws and toxin sacs if you want to keep the price down, or a lash whip and bone sword if you dont care (the dual boneswords are pretty pointless and if you want to go character hunting the +3I is essential). Just remember that the prime is very fragile in comparison to the characters other codexes can buy for similar points.

In conclusion the only way I would ever really consider a prime is if in lower points games that I wasn't running a brick tyrant to accompany my flyrant, and in those types of games I'd keep him cheap with the miasma cannon in a unit of venomthropes. Otherwise, buy a tyrant.

[daboarder]

Deathleaper:


To start with it should be noted that Deathleaper is another HQ choice that's not a synapse creature, and this is a serious mark against him sitting in the HQ slot.
He is also quite expensive being only slightly cheaper than what a full lictor brood would cost normally.
And the final mark against the leaper is his warlord trait. As discussed in teh warlord traits secction this is a pretty rough one to roll normally (even on monsters like hive tyants). On a T4 5+ Sv character without a reliable AP value, like the deathleaper this trait is a joke. If you run the deathleaper as your warlord and attempt to make use of this trait you are more likely to hand your opponent the warlords VP on a platter. Don't do it!

Now with that in mind, Deathleaper has a number of strong benefits and utility options that he brings to the table that should not be discounted.
Most basically he has a higher WS, I and A than normal lictors, not much but a nice little boost anyway.

His real strengths are the suite of special rules he comes with.
It"s after me!: Great little character nerf, an enemy character (not necessarily IC or even HQ) suffers -D3 Ld while deathleaper is alive.
This rule combos very nicely with shadow in the warp to really hammer enemy psykers (-3+D3 Ld...good luck ever getting that power off) and with the Command warlord trait that forces enemy units within 12 of your warlord to use their lowest Ld. It's even more hilarious when you stack those two.

His second rule is "where is it?" Which limits enemy models to firing snap shots when targeting the deathlearper.
This one earns a little bit of an in depth look at how it works.
What it means is that shooting attacks (not vector strikes) that specifically target the deathleaper may only fire snapshots. However shooting attacks that DON'T target deathleaper can still hit him. So he can still be clipped by scattering blast markers or by templates that are aimed through him to another unit (obeying the template rules for maximising models in the target unit under the template) This rule is still pretty powerful deathleaper can be thought of as a psuedo flier, and even better the only way to target him deliberately with non snap shots is if you are a cheesey git (re:tau)

Beyond that, his other special rules are the same as other lictors have.
The question then is, do those two special rules offer enough for the cost of the deathleaper?

It's not an easy question to answer, I definitely think deathleaper has his place in certain builds, particularly non standard ones that aim to play the opponent rather than the game ( a concept I will go into in more depth when I discuss list concepts and one I have long been a proponent of Nids using) However in a more "standard" tyranid list I do not think he offers enough utility for the slot.

NB: most of deahtleapers problems however can be alleviated by running the deathleaper assassin squad, but I will be covering the dataslates at the end of the units as there are a number of potential combinations they allow (or will if that endless swarm one is right) that change the way specific models work on teh table.

edit: On a side note, are you guys still finding these posts relevant? Any feedback would be appreciated.

[VBthesmall]

I am loving these posts! Keep up the good work!

[Lord Draekor]

They're relevant to me I find myself referring back to them every so often. Thank you!

[Maelstorm]

@daboarder - Please keep it up, I really appreciate your thoughts and insight.

[miteyheroes]

These are great, looking forward to the rest!

[plancktum]

Keep the work up! This is sooo great! I look here nearly every day for more Information :)
And now I've registered just to say: Thank you :)

[daboarder]

Cheers all,

NB: updates may be slow in coming until the end of the month as I am very busy finishing up my work.

Warriors
Warriors and Stealers are probably the two units where I am most likely to break down my positive attitude and start raging considering none of the obvious problems with the unit we're addressed significantly this edition, even the ones that are an artefact of the edition change (such as charging out of outflank. But I'm being positive despite what those who think I am constantly negative say so let's give them a look see.

Warriors sit in an odd position on the 40K toughness scale, they are one of the few units in game that changes the paradigm of how units interact with weapons.
Against small to mid strength fire with high to no AP value they are pretty much comparative to Marines in their survivability. It takes 6 Bolter/Serpent shield wounds to drop 2 Marines or one Warrior and they cost the same.
However unlike most units warriors care less about Ap3-2 weapons as their survivability is based upon their number of wounds not their Armour save. It takes 3 plasma gun wounds to drop a warrior, where as 3 plasma gun wounds will drop 3 marines.

The trade off to the practical immunity to mid strength low AP firepower is an increased vulnerability to High strength firepower and mid strength mid AP firepower.
To put this into context, Marines and warriors both dies like a chump when they eat a Krak missile, but the marine costs significantly less so he winds out ahead.

It gets really weird when you look at weapons like Heavy bolters or Autocannons. It takes 3 heavy bolter/Autocannon wounds to drop a Marine or a Warrior, but again the warrior is twice the price.

The Hyper vulnerability of Warriors however is really highlighted by their fragility to high strenght mid-low AP Blast weapons. Comparing a Warrior to a Tervigon you can see that 6 krak Missile wounds will kill 1 Tervigon or 6 Warriors (roughly the same price) whereas 1 battle cannon round has the potential to devastate an entire Warrior squad but will barely scratch a Tervigon.

The answer then is that whether or not warriors are fragile depends very much on the weapons you will likely face when fielding them, and in an edition where Baleflamers, Plasmaguns, Gravguns and Serpent Shields and Vector strikes are king Warriors are reasonably survivable for their cost. Just be sure to keep out of sight of those pesky long fangs and Manticores that are still kicking around.

As to how to actually run the unit, less is more in this case. A 3 bug squad with 2 Deathspitters and a Barbed strangler is able to hit a unit with a comfortable number of templates over a decent range, even if the enemy is likely getting an armour or cover save this combo should be able to pile on enough wounds to do some damage to them each turn, and at 110 pts is a pretty nice bargain.

Venom cannons are pretty bad and I wouldn't take them S6 small blast is nothing to write home about and really isn't even close to acceptable firepower for its price.

Devourers are not terrible for their price, remember that Marine comparison? Well the Dev warrior loses out in the 18-24 range band as he cannot shoot that far, but he wins over the 12-18 due to firing 3 shots (~2 hits...ish) where as the Marine can at most get 1, then from 0-12 they are comparable with pretty much the same number of hits given their relative ballistic skill. So if you want to keep your warriors really cheap Dev's certainly have a place to consider.

As to the Close Combat weapons, there is only one of them that I would consider on standard warriors and that is Rending claws.
These are cheap enough that you can even throw them onto a fire support unit. There is not much thats funnier than watching a termicide squad get eaten by a fire support unit they thought they would chump.

The Lashwhip and Boneswords are nice but they already increase the price of a unit that performs best when kept as cheap as possible and at its fastest is very expensive.

And dual Boneswords are just hilariously bad for their price. (NOTE: even if you roll a 6 to wound you still need to be able to actually WOUND a unit to score the ID, so no tapping out wraithknights!)

As to the Biomorphs, I'd only look at them if you are going for Pure CC warriors (and you probably shouldn't be). They are too many points to tack onto the chassis as an "in case" measure.

Toxin sacs are great and combo very nicely with Rending claws for extra chances to score those critical 6's.

Adrenal glands are nice to give a cheap CC warrior squad a speed boost for a modest price and the ability to wreck tanks pretty well in CC. You also go from wounding Marines on 4's to 3's.

So there you go, keep 'em low cost and be aware of their drawbacks and Warriors can have their place in your lists. Don't run big squads as they are just asking for a battle cannon round/Krak missile salvo.

Edit: Warriors can be Prime targets for Catalyst, really boosting the squads resilience to low/mid strength firepower.