Making the Best of the New Nids

[katurian]

SO rather than bemoan the death of The Great Devourer, I thought we could start a thread to come up with positive ideas forward with the new codex in hand.

First off, I'm thinking that a flyrant with electroshock grubs might just be a riptide killer. The haywire flame attack neuters even that much overwatch if he can get close enough to use it without getting shot off the board. Throw a bonesword on him to gun for instant death and he might just carve up that death star.

Similarly I was playing mathhammer waiting for the codex to drop and in the simulations, it seems like a dead rush of 30 Gargoyles which could conceivably charge turn 2 would maybe put 1 wound on a riptide all together but with a WS 1 the tide is hitting on 5's which means even with three attacks, he's not killing much per turn and that could tarpit him for 4 rounds or more. This is even true with the O'vasa Commander ROFLSTOMP star. Granted you're throwing 280 points into that mess assuming AG but no Toxin but it's a thought.

Throw a deathleaper and nuke the commanders LD, he could also cause a real mess if you get a tyrant with psychic scream in there (though of course that's random)

What other thoughts do people have? I'm especially interested in wiping the smirk off my FL5RL (friendly local 5 riptide list) but that might be a dream for the 42nd millennium.

[Nicochan]

I was thinking about an high pressure list like this, but it's meant just for fun, I don't play competitive games:

Hive Tyrant, wings, hive commander 250
Deathleaper 130 (deepstrike)

5 geno + broodlord 130 (infiltrate)
5 geno + broodlord 130 (infiltrate)
5 geno + broodlord 130 (infiltrate)
30 devilgants 240 (make them flank)

2 zoanthropes 100
2 zoanthropes 100

exocrine 170
exocrine 170

crone 155
crone 155
6 spores (deepstrike) 30

TOT 1890

I usually play 2k matches, so I have 110 spare points to allocate. I made this list without the codex in my hands, just with the information read in the web, so I think I would use these 110 points in some upgrades...maybe adrenal glands in the exocrines, and something useful on the hive tyrant...

Note: in the first version of the list I put 3 zoanthropes and 3 hive guards, but the lack of synapse made me change to this version..

[MrBleak]

Hive Tyrant, wings - 200
Deathleaper - 130

10 termies - 40
10 termies - 40

3 Hive guard - 165
3 Zoanthropes - 150
3 Zoanthropes - 150

Hive Crones - 155
Hive Crones - 155
Hive Crones - 155

exocrine 170
exocrine 170
exocrine 170

TOTAL - 1850

Tournament list - Gants in reserve to take objectives later in the game, rest just walks up / Flies up while shooting the assault
It´s more or less Nidzilla HamSpam list.

Zoanthropes are actually quite good getting another power apart from their base power so they can buff.
I realize it has only 2 troops and no Tervi but tervi is way of budget IMO it will almost never out pay it´s 200 points, also i believe that with 7 big bugs and 9 medium bugs the opponent has enough to worry about before clearing the gants.

Perhaps it could be changed by changing 3 Zoans for 3 venomthropes to gain more survaivability.
Cheers :3

[katurian]

Hive Tyrant, wings - 200
Deathleaper - 130

10 termies - 40
10 termies - 40

3 Hive guard - 165
3 Zoanthropes - 150
3 Zoanthropes - 150

Hive Crones - 155
Hive Crones - 155
Hive Crones - 155

exocrine 170
exocrine 170
exocrine 170

TOTAL - 1850

Tournament list - Gants in reserve to take objectives later in the game, rest just walks up / Flies up while shooting the assault
It´s more or less Nidzilla HamSpam list.

Zoanthropes are actually quite good getting another power apart from their base power so they can buff.
I realize it has only 2 troops and no Tervi but tervi is way of budget IMO it will almost never out pay it´s 200 points, also i believe that with 7 big bugs and 9 medium bugs the opponent has enough to worry about before clearing the gants.

Perhaps it could be changed by changing 3 Zoans for 3 venomthropes to gain more survaivability.
Cheers :3

I'm actually liking the new Deathleaper more and more. I'm also crazy enough to make him my warlord for his Mind Eater trait. He deep strikes near a group of tac marines. Hive Tyrant flies over, hits them with the grubs their shooting is neutered next turn, grubs again, their overwatch is neutered, he charges challenges Sgt McPowerfist and he either slinks away and the DL sythes down whats left of the squad or takes the challenge and gets cut down for he can -- er -- fist him to death. Bam: 2VP right there.

[katurian]

That said, I also feel like even though its epically undercosted, any nidzilla has to have a tervigon to poop out late game objective takers. The gants just wont live, they never do especially with a drop pod list. I'd drop a crone and possibly 1 hive guard to make room for the 30 tax and the beast itself. But I like this list. Exocrines seem to really be the only useful thing of the new models. I'm not sold on the crones, I feel like they're going to fly first turn, either get shot to death and grounded or spend a turn waiting for the enemy flyer to tentaclid, get those off and score 2 glances before getting proply gunned to death by the other flyer. I see the value in taking 3 maybe you can tentaclid enough to kill one flyer but if the enemy takes three flyers and they all come in at once, you're really boned. But I suppose you'd be really boned even if they didn't. I think I might actually just stick with the 100 pt Ageis Defense line. It's cheaper, can provide cover for the Exos and the advancing whatevers, plus it's much more reliable anti-air which is really the only reason to take the crone in the first place. Statistically, a lascannon will only destroy a 3 hull point AV 12 flyer 5% of the time where as a Quadgun will do so 15% of the time thanks to its rate of fire.

[MrBleak]

I think you miss the great value of the Crone, it has three uses:
1 - the obvious anti air, but also anti tank st 8 vector strike
2 - anti infantry - st6 ap4 ignore cover template - first turn max move straight line and burn fire casts the whole way (depending on deployment of course but second turn is a guarantied burna burna.
3 Tentaclids can be used to take down Land raiders not just flyers, even if hoaming just applies against flyiers you can shot against ground tanks withought penalty
maybe now they seem better :3

also i know that 20 gants is **** but i pput them in reserve for later, also the main idea is to table my opponent rather than capture his house XD

[katurian]

I think you miss the great value of the Crone, it has three uses:
1 - the obvious anti air, but also anti tank st 8 vector strike
2 - anti infantry - st6 ap4 ignore cover template - first turn max move straight line and burn fire casts the whole way (depending on deployment of course but second turn is a guarantied burna burna.
3 Tentaclids can be used to take down Land raiders not just flyers, even if hoaming just applies against flyiers you can shot against ground tanks withought penalty
maybe now they seem better :3

also i know that 20 gants is **** but i pput them in reserve for later, also the main idea is to table my opponent rather than capture his house XD


Ah yes, I do see your point there about the landraiders. I didn't give that much thought. still worried about its survivability. I also grossly overestimated the electroshock grubs as they dont cause re-rolls to 6's (just the haywire telekenisis power which we no longer have does that) still might be situationally useful though. AP 5 so it would melt a few guardsman's faces if nothing else but on a dakka tyrant--I dunno. I feel like if he's close enough to flamer a vehicle with the grubs he's close enough to smash

[rogueaccount]

Hive Tyrant, wings - 200
Deathleaper - 130

10 termies - 40
10 termies - 40

3 Hive guard - 165
3 Zoanthropes - 150
3 Zoanthropes - 150

Hive Crones - 155
Hive Crones - 155
Hive Crones - 155

exocrine 170
exocrine 170
exocrine 170

TOTAL - 1850

Tournament list - Gants in reserve to take objectives later in the game, rest just walks up / Flies up while shooting the assault
It´s more or less Nidzilla HamSpam list.

Zoanthropes are actually quite good getting another power apart from their base power so they can buff.
I realize it has only 2 troops and no Tervi but tervi is way of budget IMO it will almost never out pay it´s 200 points, also i believe that with 7 big bugs and 9 medium bugs the opponent has enough to worry about before clearing the gants.

Perhaps it could be changed by changing 3 Zoans for 3 venomthropes to gain more survaivability.
Cheers :3

How would you win at objectives with only two 10 Gant squads of troops? Reserving for late in the game is tough to do on a 3+...

[MrBleak]

The main idea is to table the opponent, this army is quite rough on offenssive. you should test it.
I tried it this morning againt a tau friend of mine and i won (he uses 3 riptides 9 broadsides) so it can work.
I already had this list done a few days back since the codex has been fully posted in spanish forums for like 3 days ^^

[Tynskel]

I snooze on this list. So sleepy...

Seriously, take a look at shrikes—Don't they have access to flesh hooks? I7 AP3 2 shots, 12" move and re-roll 2D6" charge.

[nomack]

I'm not feeling the lists, straying way too far from what we did so well in the beginning of 6th. Dont try to drastically chang what has worked for us up to this point. minimum troop squads are not going to do anything for us. Tervigons will still be amazing, just not OP. They can still do everything we needed them to do before, just without the glitz and glamor. They will hold down the fort as well as tie up enemy units with fodder.

Carnifex and trygon have both gotten BETTER. Ya they lost an attack base, but if my 2nd grade math is correct they GAIN an attack compared to before for SMASH. old way - 1/2(6) = 3 , new way 1/2(5) = 2.5 rounded to 3 +1 for two cc weapons. Correct me if im wrong. Yes i understand we lost combat re-rolls and that SUCKS but, the point cost is worth it if you buy upgrades. Think of it this way, would you give up combat rerolls for point reduction+fleet+furious charge!? and the correct answer would be H*LL YA! buy AG! At first glance it just looks like they weakened them and lowered points, but what they did was give us way more value for our points and that may be all we needed.

I gotta say im not really looking forward to many of the new models. I think exocrines will be good because they give us the gun we were lacking for so long. High STR and low AP, something we have almost none of. Im not really happy with the points but i think it is very playable.
The crone/harpy both show some promise, im not sure about either without playing them tho. I am leaning towards crone tho simply to give myself a solid answer to flyers.

Im not gonna crunch numbers yet cause i want to read the full book in hand and mull it over, but my initial list built to win will be something like this.

Flyrant w/devs
Flyrant w/devs

3x Hive guard
3x Hive guard

30x gaunts w/devs
30x gaunts w/devs
Tervigon
Tervigon

Hive crone

Exocrine
Exocrine
Tyrannofex

approx = 2k

This list is far from tested or even thought out enough to be complete. But it combines the strengths we brought to 6th edition while combining what gw has added. The main problem i think i would have here is dealing with large amounts of infantry. I may not have enough pressure at times to mess with their priorities. Hoping the tyrannofex will be a solid option for this. I would be bringing acid spray or fleshborer in almost all cases.

feel free to pick it apart, it can only make us stronger.

[Kelshin]

An interesting observation. Paroxysm doesnt say anything about a minimum number. With a Good roll it seems possible to deny certain things (markerlights) from shooting at all for a full turn, including overwatch denial. I dont have my BRB in front of me, but Im fairly certain BS 0 means you're SOL.

[Kevlarshark]

Bs 0 means you are unable make ranged attacks. Broodlords used to be the only thing unfortunate enough to find itself in possession of a shooting attack Psychic power and bs 0.

[Sly]

Im not gonna crunch numbers yet cause i want to read the full book in hand and mull it over, but my initial list built to win will be something like this.

Flyrant w/devs
Flyrant w/devs

3x Hive guard
3x Hive guard

30x gaunts w/devs
30x gaunts w/devs
Tervigon
Tervigon

Hive crone

Exocrine
Exocrine
Tyrannofex

approx = 2k


I would drop the TFex for another Crone, and give both Crones the Cluster Spines attack. Then you can template/large blast against Infantry with them, and while obviously the T-Fex is tougher, the Crones are faster and will be able to get into range to hit sooner.

And I'd consider dropping 1 squad of Hive Guard for 1-2 Venomthropes and 1-2 Zoeys. Zoeys will help with high armor, and the Venomthropes will help defensively. Alternately, drop the Exocrine for 3 Zoeys... same idea, you lose some firepower, but gain more Synapse (test out the list with 2 Exos vs 1 Exo and 3 Zoeys, see if the extra Synapse is necessary).

[Fotoguy79]

The Fexes and Trygons only really lost an attack if you sub out their weapons. 2 CCW's = +1 attack. =D

Makes it so shooty units can't also do well in CC, but the CC units get an extra attack because of Base Scything talons and any other CCW.

[nomack]

I would drop the TFex for another Crone, and give both Crones the Cluster Spines attack. Then you can template/large blast against Infantry with them, and while obviously the T-Fex is tougher, the Crones are faster and will be able to get into range to hit sooner.

And I'd consider dropping 1 squad of Hive Guard for 1-2 Venomthropes and 1-2 Zoeys. Zoeys will help with high armor, and the Venomthropes will help defensively. Alternately, drop the Exocrine for 3 Zoeys... same idea, you lose some firepower, but gain more Synapse (test out the list with 2 Exos vs 1 Exo and 3 Zoeys, see if the extra Synapse is necessary).

Although i see your point, i do not agree that Zoanthropes are needed for high armor, that is what the exocrines are for. Adding venomthropes is the first thing i would try to make room for ofcourse (they seem awesome). The 2nd crone tho, i dont see it for an all comers list. There is no need to be in their face turn 1 with 2 crones. Its an ez choice if you tailor your list ofcourse, but i think the tyrannofex will a good value buy with this book. Synapse may be a problem, but only if they focus tervigons, the one thing that does almost nothing alone.

maybe 2x2 hiveguard and add 2 venomthropes.

[daboarder]

You probably need zoans

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQQGcgJ5PZ0

this is why

[katurian]

Bs 0 means you are unable make ranged attacks. Broodlords used to be the only thing unfortunate enough to find itself in possession of a shooting attack Psychic power and bs 0.

Sadly no,

"Note that bonuses and penalties from different maledictions are always cumulative, but cannot, unless otherwise stated,take characteristicsabove l0 or below l." -- BRB pg 68.

That would imply that one could casst parox from multiple nids on the same target but he would not go lower than 1.

[Kelshin]

Sadly no,

"Note that bonuses and penalties from different maledictions are always cumulative, but cannot, unless otherwise stated,take characteristicsabove l0 or below l." -- BRB pg 68.

That would imply that one could casst parox from multiple nids on the same target but he would not go lower than 1.

Well, boo. :)

[Learn2Eel]

You probably need zoans

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQQGcgJ5PZ0

this is why

And even despite losing Mycetic Spores I think Zoanthropes are still pretty good units anyway, them being easily our best ground Synapse unit (assuming you take Flyrants) pretty much makes them auto-takes.

[daboarder]

personally I think this army is in big trouble, reecius' battle report is a very good example of what happens when you run out of synapse units, but how many synapse units can you fit into say an 1850 list without compromising the lists abillity to be effective in other areas?

4?
against lists that can drop 2 units of their choice a turn (not all that hard really) then that means nids get to T2 earliest before going haywire, and we don't really have anything thats effective at hurting the enemy first turn.

[nomack]

Tervigons are still best ground synapse unit. That video is a horrible representation of tyranids btw.

[Big_jon]

I have played 3 games with my Nids so far, so far I'm not loving them. Two games aganst deamons and they are so frustrating because their MC's just smash ours.

I played

HQ
Hive Tyrant
Wings, Toxin sacs, Regen, Bonesword/lash

Hive Tryrant
Wings, regen, 2x Devoures

Elite
3 venomthropes

Troops
15 hormagants
15 hormagants

15 Termagants
15 Termagants

3x Warriors
Deathspittersx2 Barbed strangler

3x Warriors
Deathspittersx2 Barbed strangler

Heavy

Trygon
Toxin sacs

3x Carnifexes
Adrenal

1750

Fighting 2 deamon princes and two Bloodthirsters, I was in a bad place, it was rough, I managed to kill both Deamon princes, but could only manage to bring down one bloodthirster to a wound, and the other that started with 6 down to 2 wounds. I learned that venomthropes are great, that a unit of 3 Carnifexes can't beat a single Bloodthirster, and Hivetyrants are good but too fragile, an extra wound, Initiative and fleshhooks would go a long way.


Of the three games I played I won 1 against daemons, not a great player, his first time with them, lost 2 to another friend, one due to bad charge range luck against a gunline Marine army, still close, and the other to deamons, also close.

I managed over the three games to regen 4 wounds on My Hive tyrants, which was cool I guess, but they are too fragile compared to greater deamons of the same price, seriously.

Oh, and warpscream does bad things to a Deamon prince.

[daboarder]

my I reccomend the adglands, we really do NEED the fleet now (and a 12 in jump move PLUS re-roll charge is awesome on a tyrant) and the strength is usefull, in fact I'm seeing a lot of change from toxin to adglands on units myself (not sure what I want on skyslashers)

As to my own list, I really think I'm going to be forgoinf anything new, Hell I may even be still running swarmlord, considering hes the only SYNERGY we have left in the book, handing out FC, PE or MH to units within 18 realistically saves roughly 100 or so points in my list instead of spending the points on gaunts and gants which is critical if you are relying on those units now that Tgons got ground into mince.

List:
Swarmlord
Flyrant (Tsacs, Aglands, BS+LW)

2x2 zoans (seriously, synapse and shooting, plus more rolls is always good)

2x30 gants
2x tervigons (just going to have to eat the explosion)
20x Hgaunts (tsacs)
2x2trygons (tsacs)

leaves me with 110 pts.

I've used it a few times already subbing in different things for the 100pts, from warriors (really, really lacluster damage output)gagoyles (great as always)

thinking of dropping the Trygons to mawlocs, the Hgaunts losing their tsacs and maybe the swarmlord for a tyrant and 2xguard

[Big_jon]

my I reccomend the adglands, we really do NEED the fleet now (and a 12 in jump move PLUS re-roll charge is awesome on a tyrant) and the strength is usefull, in fact I'm seeing a lot of change from toxin to adglands on units myself (not sure what I want on skyslashers)

Adrenal is the best upgrade in the whole book right now, I mean, it's a bit odd becuase it sort of makes the faster things in the book seem redundant, like Trygons vs Carnifexes, but it is one of the only (Along side toxin sacs) useful upgrades in the book for the price. I am not sure I will put it on my Flyrants, but it's AMAZING for Carnifexes. Still dumb that Trygons/any other fleet having unit in the book has to play the same price for it though.

[Big_jon]

Also you gotta keep two trygons though, they're too cool to drop!

[daboarder]

Yeah They're the ONLY thing we realistically have left to threaten an opponents backfield support from reserves, given the new outflank rules and the pods got destroyed

[Big_jon]

Yeah They're the ONLY thing we realistically have left to threaten an opponents backfield support from reserves, given the new outflank rules and the pods got destroyed

I think I will start playing 1 Trygon and 1 Mawlock. I generally like to play the models I like though as much as I can, i also favour assault a lot, not matter if the edition forces lots of shoot. It's why I have a Spartan for Abaddon and his Terminators haha.

[DarkLink]

Venomthropes are a big deal now, I think. Tyranid MCs block LOS pretty effectively, if you have a couple of cheap Venomthropes hidden away, your army just got significantly tougher against most shooting, particularly grav weapons.

[Big_jon]

Venomthropes are a big deal now, I think. Tyranid MCs block LOS pretty effectively, if you have a couple of cheap Venomthropes hidden away, your army just got significantly tougher against most shooting, particularly grav weapons.

Thy're huge, I was using them, in my first game I had a 2+ cover for a lot of the game, it was crazy, but nids are really stuck in a ball right now.

[DarkLink]

I think they also make walking Warriors viable as synapse. People will be reluctant to waste str 8 shooting on them when you're getting a great cover save, and even if they do, I can tell you from my personal experience playing Paladins that you can tank a surprising number of hits. They give you a very large Synapse footprint, have decent assault, and decent shooting, and you can throw in a venom cannon for kicks. By correlation, take a line of Gargoyles up front, then a line of gaunts, then the warriors, and you've got good coverage for your cover saves even though you're right on the frontlines.

Mawlocs strike me as pretty good. Don't deepstrike them in the middle of the frikin' enemy army, or you'll mishap, but target a unit that's on a flank where you only clip like 5 models, and you're almost certainly going to kill them.

Carnifex with dual venom cannons are pretty beefy. Multiple str 9 small blasts, ap4 or not, is not too shabby, and that's not a bad unit in assault either, especially charging vehicles.

[Big_jon]

I think they also make walking Warriors viable as synapse. People will be reluctant to waste str 8 shooting on them when you're getting a great cover save, and even if they do, I can tell you from my personal experience playing Paladins that you can tank a surprising number of hits. They give you a very large Synapse footprint, have decent assault, and decent shooting, and you can throw in a venom cannon for kicks. By correlation, take a line of Gargoyles up front, then a line of gaunts, then the warriors, and you've got good coverage for your cover saves even though you're right on the frontlines.

Mawlocs strike me as pretty good. Don't deepstrike them in the middle of the frikin' enemy army, or you'll mishap, but target a unit that's on a flank where you only clip like 5 models, and you're almost certainly going to kill them.

Carnifex with dual venom cannons are pretty beefy. Multiple str 9 small blasts, ap4 or not, is not too shabby, and that's not a bad unit in assault either, especially charging vehicles.


Mawlocks will be huge I think too. Venomthropes are great but remember that they can target the models out over cover if they're smart, which it's hard to keep everyone behind cover, and I am the kind of person who has always run CC fexes, so I am sure that shooting one will be viable as always, but I for one am pretty happy that they are finally viable since the 4th ed book as CC monsters. Still wish they had 5 wounds though for 130

[Empty Vector]

I am playing 2x 2000 point games today with the new nids against IG and Eldar, my lists are as followed.

HQ
Hive Tyrant (2x twin linked brain leech worms, wings, electroshock grubs)
Hive Tyrant (2x twin linked brain leech worms, wings)

Elites
3x Hive Guard
1x Venomthropes
Troops
30x Termagants
30x Termagants
Tervigon (stinger salvo, scything talons)
Tervigon (stinger salvo, scything talons)
Fast Attack
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Heavy Support
Biovore
Exocrine
Exocrine

and

HQ
Hive Tyrant (2x twin linked brain leech worms, wings, electroshock grubs)
Hive Tyrant (2x twin linked brain leech worms, wings)
Elites
3x Hive Guard
3x Zoanthropes
1x Venomthropes

Troops
30x Termagants
30x Termagants
Tervigon (stinger salvo, scything talons)
Tervigon (stinger salvo, scything talons)

Heavy Support
Biovore
3x Carnifex

[Learn2Eel]

I think they also make walking Warriors viable as synapse. People will be reluctant to waste str 8 shooting on them when you're getting a great cover save, and even if they do, I can tell you from my personal experience playing Paladins that you can tank a surprising number of hits. They give you a very large Synapse footprint, have decent assault, and decent shooting, and you can throw in a venom cannon for kicks. By correlation, take a line of Gargoyles up front, then a line of gaunts, then the warriors, and you've got good coverage for your cover saves even though you're right on the frontlines.

Mawlocs strike me as pretty good. Don't deepstrike them in the middle of the frikin' enemy army, or you'll mishap, but target a unit that's on a flank where you only clip like 5 models, and you're almost certainly going to kill them.

Carnifex with dual venom cannons are pretty beefy. Multiple str 9 small blasts, ap4 or not, is not too shabby, and that's not a bad unit in assault either, especially charging vehicles.

Just an FYI that Heavy Venom Cannons are 1-per-model just like Stranglethorn Cannons. Agreed on everything else though!

I've come up with an early army list variant that I like, if anyone has critiques go right ahead. This is based mostly on what models I am interested in while still trying to make it competitive.

HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two twin-linked brain leech devourers
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two twin-linked brain leech devourers

Troops
Termagants (20)
Termagants (20)
Termagants (20)
Termagants (20)

Elites
Zoanthropes (2)
Zoanthropes (2)

Fast Attack
Harpy
Harpy
Harpy w/ heavy venom cannon

Heavy Support
Biovores (3)
Exocrine
Exocrine
TOTAL = 1850

The general idea is that one brood of Zoanthropes baby-sit the two Exocrines, while the other brood of Zoanthropes baby-sit the Biovores. The Flyrants each take Dominion unless both their powers are more useful, and use it to keep up 18" Synapse ranges for the Harpies and Termagants.

Basically, the list is there to drown the opponent in 80 scoring bodies and 5 FMCs while obliterating opponents' Troops. The two Flyrants and two Exocrines will easily rip apart transports, while the three Harpies and three Biovores (and Exocrines if they have nothing else to shoot) annihilate infantry. It is pretty much the same theory as the Tervigon-spam lists of the old codex, just with a lot of variations (no Tervigons, significantly higher Termagant count, focus more on shooting and FMCs).

Just a few pointers;

1) I know Crones are probably more useful overall than Harpies as a generalist unit with the S8 Vector Strike and Tentaclids making them significantly better at destroying vehicles and flyers. However, with BS4 especially, my two Flyrants I've found even in my old lists where I had no other shooting to speak of did the job admirably anyway. Besides, the Heavy Venom Cannon Harpy is also good for this.

2) The Harpy models are my favourite, so I'm definitely running at least two of them. I have considered swapping one out for a Crone though so that I have three FMCs for taking on both vehicles and flyers.

3) I've seen the idea of running solo Zoanthropes, and I definitely understand why. Still, with 100 points spare or so, I preferred taking two extras so that they aren't easy First Blood bait for Ignore LOS weapons - that, and having only four Synapse models, two of which are solo T4 W2 3++ isn't a great idea!

4) I think I can survive without Venomthropes, though I know they are truly invaluable now. Do you think a pair might be a good replacement for some units in the list?

5) Is 80 Termagants too many? Should I perhaps cut it down to 60 and have more points to spend, i.e. on a pair of Venomthropes (but it would mean I'd have to change up the list a bit as dropping the HVC on the third Harpy leaves me 5 points short for fitting 2 Venomthropes in)? I could even cut down the Termagant numbers to something like 50 or 40, but then I'd be a bit frightened about losing my scoring units (they are so fragile after all).

Eh, my main issue is if 80 scoring bodies are the way to go or not. Methinks it isn't.

[Ang56]

I'm actually liking the new Deathleaper more and more. I'm also crazy enough to make him my warlord for his Mind Eater trait. He deep strikes near a group of tac marines. Hive Tyrant flies over, hits them with the grubs their shooting is neutered next turn, grubs again, their overwatch is neutered, he charges challenges Sgt McPowerfist and he either slinks away and the DL sythes down whats left of the squad or takes the challenge and gets cut down for he can -- er -- fist him to death. Bam: 2VP right there.

Mind Eater trait awards 2 VP for Independant Char challenge kills only, not regular characters (sergeants, and HQ's w/o IC special rule don't count).

Also the 6 rending atks on the charge will do some damage but I doubt he can survive overly long against marines. Don't get me wrong I think he is Pretty cool. He is tricky tho. I managed to snipe a few squad leaders with him through challenge and hit and run today. Best move your opponent can make though is decline the challenge, you'll hit 4, rend maybe 1, likely wound with the rest and the 3+ armor will absorb most of it, you'll maybe kill 2 barring luck. T4 5+armor isnt hard for a Tac squad to kill either.

I did find running him and a 3 pack of Lictors with a Hormagaunt squad to be pretty decent. 21 I6 rending attacks, then at I5 step the hormagaunts slide in front and soak most of the returning I4 or less hits. Gaunts providing a buffer and soaking the returning attacks improved their survivability by quite a bit.

Could see this working with stealers and BS/LW warrior units as well. Pricier fragile units with I6+ using initiative stepped combat to have the cheap hormagaunts soak up most of the CC losses. Only really works if assaulting I4 or less. I still think termagaunts are the way to go, esp being able to hide devo's in behind the FB's. Just happy to have a use for hormagaunts on occasion, I like them.



Venomthrope Shrouding was fairly invaluable in all of my games since last night. Front rank getting 5+ and anything behind having 3+ cover (including the venoms when I could be careful) made my first and second turn losses significantly less then I'm used to. Though I run buckets of gaunts so screening is easier. I could see them being less viable in lower model count lists when the venoms aren't in surrounded by 10"+ of bodies in all directions, or against opponents with easily accessible ignores cover shots.

I'm a little on the fence with them. If you could still buy 3 and move them on their own it would be a no brainer. 2 units seems to be enough if I'm careful about all my unit placement. That's a lot of elite slots though for good cover for a few turns only. They are a major early game target. More likely to survive it then last ed, still they don't last long with a decent opponent.

[daboarder]

which is unfortunate as every other similarly worded trait in the game is just character, same with the FNP, everyone else sorta just gets it, we get shot first.

so given the new FW ruling, which probably opens the gates for most tournaments (I know most of the big Aus ones already had it in) What do we think of the FW nids, Malanthropes? Meiotic spores?

[Big_jon]

I really want to like the Haruspex but the thing hits like such a limp wrist, it's just not very good.

[Ang56]

I really want to like the Haruspex but the thing hits like such a limp wrist, it's just not very good.

When i first read that unit i thought it might be really cool now that you mention tho, 4 Atck on charge with low ws and init. with TS wound rerolls and the additional attacks generated you're looking at 3 wounds done avg? 1-2 more HoW, Tail, Tongue shots on the way in. Coming with acid blood isn't aweful. Not as cool as I thought first read at 160+morphs.

[daboarder]

needs ad glands too

[DarkLink]

Just an FYI that Heavy Venom Cannons are 1-per-model just like Stranglethorn Cannons. Agreed on everything else though!

Well, crap.

[Ang56]

Someone had mentioned it in the other thread a few days ago, I tried the harpy + 3 carnifex charge this afternoon. Was pretty devastating having the fex's hit first on the charge.

Tervigon is still useful as well, just pricey for what it is now. The extra mid game spawned gaunts were kind of a big deal with the obj's at the end seeing as my initial wave of gaunts still tends to get pretty dead by Turn 3-4. Was also lucky with psychic. and it makes a good back line babysitter for non gaunt units.

Loving running 18 FB gaunts with 12 Dev in the back of the same unit. protects the dev gaunts for longer, and the unit having 12" range up front and 18" for guys in back seems to make them more reliable about all having range shoot with 30 in the unit.

[daboarder]

Tervigon is still useful as well, just pricey for what it is now. The extra mid game spawned gaunts were kind of a big deal with the obj's at the end seeing as my initial wave of gaunts still tends to get pretty dead by Turn 3-4. Was also lucky with psychic. and it makes a good back line babysitter for non gaunt units.


this, I have a feeling we're going to have to run 1 or 2 tervigons base just to ensure we have some scoring still late game. I know people are looking at Gant swarms, but its been a LONG time since Gant swarms were a serious option for us and in that time the firepower even single troops units can put out has increased dramatically. In my games with this book so far I can say that if I hadn't had scoring I'd be in trouble, 100 or so gants may seem like a lot, but when a tau firewarrior squad can kill 20 a turn......yeah thats not going to last too long.

[fedratsailor]

I was looking at the malanthrope brood and was thinking of taking 2 as the 2nd HQ. though im not sure if they are worthwhile being your warlord if allowed, they would provide 8 toughness5 wounds and regeneration with a nice synapse bubble from 2 of them. all for 10 points less than a dual devourer Flying tyrant. I definetly think they have a good chance in this edition. they also still have the prey adaption rule.

"Once a malanthrope brood has destroyed an enemy infantry unit[of any type] in an assault, both they and any friendly tyranid model or unit within synapse range of the malanthrope brood [including the malanthropes themselves] gain the preferd enemy special rule against the enemy type they have slain."

that right there screams bring those droppod units in. so what you take some wounds off something. then gank them with the malanthropes. could be a nasty combo.

[Ang56]

.

[Ang56]

this, I have a feeling we're going to have to run 1 or 2 tervigons base just to ensure we have some scoring still late game..

I'd take one, in games like 1500 ish maybe? one can give you some scoring units / back line babysit. i don't think i can see myself dumping ~400 pts into tervigons under like 2500 at least, if even then.

[MrBleak]

.

[Ang56]

Was bored and pointed a gaunt swarm list, would be fun to field this once tho I don't have the proper weapon load out on HT or shrikes.

*HQ*

Hive Tyrant 165

*TROOPS*

Hormagaunt Brood (20) 100
Hormagaunt Brood (20) 100
Termagaunt Brood (30) 120
Termagaunt Brood (30) 120
Termagaunt Brood (30) 120
Termagaunt Brood (30) 120

*ELITE*

Venomthrope 45
Venomthrope 45
Venomthrope 45

*FAST ATTACK*

Tyranid Shrike Brood (3) 90
Tyranid Shrike Brood (3) 90
Tyranid Shrike Brood (3) 90


Total : 1250 Pts
173 Models

Just rush, leave the shrikes behind lines just to provide synapse and deter things from going after the venoms. Use HT mostly for vehicles. See if thier 1250 pt list can manage that many models through venom cover. You could design a list to handle this I'm sure. Would be fun to just ask someone to play a 1250 pt pick up game and drop this on them with no warning and see how it goes.

(if he insisted on 1500 throw a tervigon in HQ to spawn more and bump the Hgaunts to 25)

Pretty sure the only way to really overwhelm someone with "swarm" is in small games over 1500 and the force org works against you. also armies tend to have a pretty large volume of fire at those point levels, enough to cut into your front ranks enough inches to slow your advance to a crawl.

[Nicochan]

A question for you all:

why would be woth playing warriors when we have shrikes? (aside from FOC issues)

warriors: better save
shrikes: better movement (so better synapse) + hammer of wrath

[rpricew]

A question for you all:

why would be woth playing warriors when we have shrikes? (aside from FOC issues)

warriors: better save
shrikes: better movement (so better synapse) + hammer of wrath

Warriors can score, Shrikes can not. That's the only reason... (Shrikes are commonly referred to as Bolter Bait also)

I love the "Idea" of putting lots of Venomthropes into my list to pull off ridiculous cover save combos, but there is so much Tau, Tigirius, Eldar and Divination with Ignore Cover in my area that it just doesn't really work. It didn't in 5th and I'm having a hard time with it now.

Since our MCs are relatively slow...even with Fleet...most of the savvy players use one unit to take out the Venomthropes with a quick round of shooting first, negating the saves and opening up the rest of the army for normal firepower. Venomthropes in my area are commonly referred to as "First Blood".

Line of Sight blocking terrain helps, but you still have to come out from behind it if you want to play with your opponent's army ;)

[Bensensun]

Hey! My first post on this forum : ).

What do you think of this 1000 point list:

hive tyrant + miasma cannon+ stranglethorn cannon + tactical instinct + 2 tyrant guards
20 termagaunts with spike rifles
20 termagaunts with spike rifles
20 outflanking termagaunts with 3 shots str 4 thing. i have the german codex ; )
2 zoanthropes
2 hive guards
2 toxothropes
and 1 biovore

greetings,

Benjamin

[Tynskel]

Hey! My first post on this forum : ).

What do you think of this 1000 point list:

hive tyrant + miasma cannon+ stranglethorn cannon + tactical instinct + 2 tyrant guards
20 termagaunts with spike rifles
20 termagaunts with spike rifles
20 outflanking termagaunts with 3 shots str 4 thing. i have the german codex ; )
2 zoanthropes
2 hive guards
2 toxothropes
and 1 biovore

greetings,

Benjamin

Best to post lists in the Army Lists section.

[sfshilo]

personally I think this army is in big trouble, reecius' battle report is a very good example of what happens when you run out of synapse units, but how many synapse units can you fit into say an 1850 list without compromising the lists abillity to be effective in other areas?

4?
against lists that can drop 2 units of their choice a turn (not all that hard really) then that means nids get to T2 earliest before going haywire, and we don't really have anything thats effective at hurting the enemy first turn.

TAKE PRIMES AND WARRIORS? Cheapest options and a couple zoans and bam, that's seven synapse. Three of which are 3++

People bemoan the prime cost....but it is a 125 base synapse, that is really cheap.

This isn't codex:biomancy anymore, adapt already.

Reecius first list was awful. Two HUGE synapse targets in the entire army??? Huh? That is fifth.

I know people like Hq mc's but I do not think they are worth their points in that slot unless you are double force org.

Trygon primes seem really good. Zoans seem good. Gargoyles look amazing. Warriors are synapse and with three of them at t5 3w seem much more durable with los blocking Terrain then a giant fmc....

My perspective is from not playing 5th. I love nids but not playing them currently.

There are some really good tough long range shooting options that are not 200+ points.

Just my two cents, I think this codex is good in a different way then tau/eldar, their troop cost and unit sizes are the strength.(Not the huge mcs)

[DWest]

Except, the Prime *is* massively overpriced. It's only 40 points less than the Hive Tyrant, who has +2 WS, +1S, +1T, +1W and Mastery 2 over the Prime, and can take Wings, and despite being an MC, all of the upgrades cost the same for both models.

Also, Warriors are still only T4; if they were T5 then yes, they'd be durable and a really good choice.

[dannymiles]

Except, the Prime *is* massively overpriced. It's only 40 points less than the Hive Tyrant, who has +2 WS, +1S, +1T, +1W and Mastery 2 over the Prime, and can take Wings, and despite being an MC, all of the upgrades cost the same for both models.

Also, Warriors are still only T4; if they were T5 then yes, they'd be durable and a really good choice.

BUT! The Prime is a IC. He can hide in the swarm. Keep Synapse up. If the first group he's with starts getting beat up. Jump him into a new group. Good luck assassinating my Warlord OR breaking my synapse.

[DarkLink]

...and he's still overpriced.

Yes, you need lots of synapse. The fact that most synapse is overpriced on top of the massive handicap synapse represents is just GW kicking you while you're down.

[iNcontroL]

I think having the Prime joined with a squad of something neat is his only trick that begins to justify the cost. 100+ pts for a t4 squishy unit better have some sick X factor and adding bs/ws to the group is cool but it needs to be paired with something more than gaunt "wounds" imo.. he doesn't pack nearly enough punch to do that. A guy on frontlinegaming talked about having him paired with a unit of carnifex.. kinda neat if that pans out.

[Ang56]

Prime is over priced but not unusable, biggest thing he has going for him is the IC tho so you can hide a synapse node inside another unit giving it some decent random hw protection. If he was under 100 pts stock but as expensive as current when upgraded I could see it. I do really like that idea of upgrading him and putting him in a Cfex brood, he could be really good there.

Personally, if you just want the synapse node and to not pay a ton, bumping up to a stock HT is way more worth it, 165 pts for a bit more durable target with 2 psychics (being the biggest part), being monstrous he can actually kill vehicles and has much better cc attacks. For 40 pts you can still use him primarily as a node, does better at support and has some form teeth to him.

Separate thought from the cheap synapse node : with 1-2 turns of shrouding, the "Footrant" w/ guard and fleet is looking much more appealing to me. curious to try it out since I've been exclusively using flying ones for a while now.

[fraziersm]

maybe a dumb question... but would thew shroud from Venomthropes stack? i,e if i have a squad of 30 guants and two venomthropes within 6" do i now have a 4+ cover?

[DarkLink]

Shrouded is +2 to your cover save. Place a line of little bugs (gaunts or gargoyles) up front, with a few models within 6" of the Venomthrope. They now have a 5+ cover. Then place bigger bugs right behind them. The little bugs grant the big bugs a 5+ cover, with a +2 from Shrouded, for a 3+ cover.

So long as the Venomthropes are alive, that is.

[Tynskel]

I am just double checking here...
Can Bugs now use Emplaced Weapons?
If so, an Exocrine on an Ageis Gun is pretty good. 6 Plasma shots and 4 twin-linked shots at BS4...

[Tynskel]

Shrouded is +2 to your cover save. Place a line of little bugs (gaunts or gargoyles) up front, with a few models within 6" of the Venomthrope. They now have a 5+ cover. Then place bigger bugs right behind them. The little bugs grant the big bugs a 5+ cover, with a +2 from Shrouded, for a 3+ cover.

So long as the Venomthropes are alive, that is.

take those Bunkers and put them as far forward as possible. In goes the Venomthrope! Call it a 'spore chimney'.

[Tyrendian]

take those Bunkers and put them as far forward as possible. In goes the Venomthrope! Call it a 'spore chimney'.

and anything on the battlements would get a 2+ I guess... not bad at all! that ought to keep Zoans alive a bit longer should the need arise/your table lack buildings to hide them behind/you want to warp blast something with your zoans