Something old, something new. Something gribbly, to eat you.

[Mr Mystery]

How do?

Bit of a place holder for now I'm afraid, but wanted to post before I forgot about the idea!

Simply put, this is a thread for the direct, informed discussion of how the new Tyranid Codex has affected people's existing armies.

Why the emphasis on informed? Because you'll need both books to be able to work out the new points cost of your force :)

General idea is not to so much give us a full breakdown of your list, but the gist of it (so whether you played Nidzilla etc), and the points saved/lost overall.

After that, how you feel you can adapt your army and playstyle to the new Codex, including where necessary what to spend spare points, and how you might cover a points deficit (haven't got the new book yet, so covering all bases :) )

So for anyone with both books already, you lucky sods, feel free to crack on and fill your boots!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

A good idea dude, I won't really be posting because I don't plan on getting the new 'Nids, too many other projects.
I'll keep an eye to see if anyone is being a jerk though.

[Mr Mystery]

I haven't got a Nid army presently, but I do pick up every Codex.

I'm just interested to see how it's changed the wider picture.

[Psychosplodge]

I'd have loved to contribute, but all except three of my nids are still in box, or bare metal... :(

[Mr Mystery]

Long as you've written a list for them it's all hunky dorey.

Or even just total up what you've got, and post up from there.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I imagine, like every other army, you'll manage to free up an extra 200 points on your list.

Happened to my Dark Angels, Chaos Marines, Tau, and Space Marines.

[Mr Mystery]

Think this could be significantly more.......

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I don't see why people are moaning then, that's more monsters...

[Psychosplodge]

Long as you've written a list for them it's all hunky dorey.

Or even just total up what you've got, and post up from there.

Nah, I never got round to actually buying the codex, just bought what looked cool, like every other army I ever collected, hence 15 warriors, 3 zoanthropes, 6 carnifexs (three 2nd edition type screamer killers) I can't remember how many ravenors, two lots of older space hulk genestealers, and a broodlord (i think).

I think that sounds about right.

[Megad00mer]

(edited post to actually be relevant to the thread, sorry lol)

Typically I run mixed lists and I'll definitely have more points to play with.

Dual Brainleech Flyrants dropped by a good 30pts.

I like to run Hormagaunts and they got cheaper as well. I feel their upgrades are too expensive in the new book and would rather have more bodies. Toxin Sacs are 60% of the cost of another Hormagaunt so I'm gonna run big broods of cheap, FAST fodder.

I usually only brought one Tervigon in my lists and I see no need to change this. They got a lot more expensive and suffered some nerfs. You also need 30 Termagants to take one as Troop now so overall, Troop Tervigons have gotten massively more expensive.

Gonna run a big brood of Fexes too. They got nice and cheap. A Dual Devourer Carnifex is less points now, than a stock Fex from the old book.

[Mr Mystery]

Remember....it's all about the points costs comparisson so we can look into the actual impact.

For numbers out my bum (for now), where the downsizing has happened, do the gains help to offset? If for instance your regular force is now 400 points cheaper, what would you add?

[Sly]

I never put the minis and made the conversions to start painting, so for me it's more of a change in planned builds, and I love it:

In the prior Codex, I was looking to convert 2-3 Tervigons and associated Gaunts. The problem was that I really did not want to make that many Termies.

Now, I'm probably going to go with a FMC list, 4 FMCs, no Tervies, and 30-40 Devourer Gants plus 1-2 squads of Genestealers. Other things may change, but the main thing is that I'm looking at about 50 Troops bodies rather than around 100, which all of a sudden makes the project look worthwhile rather than "I'll never get to this". I guess for me the Tervigon nerf was a good thing :D

[DarkLink]

You know, enough of the codex has been leaked that we do know basically all of the points costs and rules. Some stuff is cheaper, some stuff is it, and none of it is a significant enough change to really save nids from the problems that plagued their last codex.

They've probably gotten a little better overall, but not massively so.

[Mr Mystery]

Which is what this thread is about.

Rather than the general force, people's specific armies.

It's purely out of interest!

[citadel]

I am very excited abut this new codex, and although I agree with a few of the points of contention, overall I think the codex will allow a greater variability in lists while maintaining strong competitive potential. I mean, I still can't believe we actually have a Str7 Ap2 Assault6 gun on a T6W6 Gunbeast. That's just awesome.

In my last few lists with our codex, I fielded 7 MCs with venomthropes and ramrodded up the field. It did very well against Eldar/Tau/SM lists in local tourneys and my friend network, partially due to abusing cover mechanics (gotta take what you can get, right?). Now that VThropes give shrouded, FNP applies to the caster AND the nominated unit, and we can onslaught the gunbeast... wow.

My first army/strategy involves the new gunbeast and a squad of 8 genestealers, probably 2 flyrants, malwoc, some charging carnifi (AG/Fleet and D3 S9 HoW hits at I10 step? Yes please), crone, and whatever else I can fit that attracts major target priority.

I have found that the most effective use of the genestealer isn't necessarily the damage it does, but the threat of the GS' potential to do damage. I infiltrate as far as I can in the best cover I can, and as soon as they start taking fire, I Go2Ground to give them the 2+ cover bonus. If ruins, this now means they are flaunting a 2+ cover save. Sure, they could get blown away by flamers if the enemy wants to get CLOSER to the rest of my army, but there are always 4-5 left by the time the rest of my army hits the enemy front line, even when sustaining immense pressure. If a casterbug is close, FNP even. Then, around turns 2/3, everything else is up in their grill, and suddently I have a forward unit of GS ready to grind. Not to mention they are now AP 5 in addition to rending, they are going to chew through troops of other xenos. OFC marines will hold their own, but it's about threat generation.

So, having said all that, we now have a gunbeast with Assault6 Str7 Ap2 that can onslaught to get into middle terrain and a possible venomthrope giving it +2 to the cover. That's a potential 2+5+FNP firing station (re: central anchor) near the middle of the map that your army revolves around. Yes, the enemy has Ignore Cover and will saturate the gunbeast with fire, but that leaves the carni open to get across the field as well as the malwoc in the back line. Add to the fact that everything is cheaper and damn, this really does seem like a super fun codex to run. This is just one strategy that I've thought of, and I'm sure there are plenty, plenty more that will make many of the current detractors reconsider their current positions.

So, overall, I'm pretty excited. I think we received hefty nerfs but in the right places. Take the tervigon nerf for example: if you step back and think about it, 185 points for a T6W6 3+ MC that spawns additional moving/shooting/assaulting troop units, could cast FNP or a BRB power, had a str4ap5a4 gun at 18", gave poison fearless and cattack, str10 for vehicle mop up, large enough to give multiple units cover behind, AND a troop choice (!) is quite overpowered. It made them too good, and it seems that this codex is taking away from the monobuild philosophy.

[Mr Mystery]

Venomthropes are shaping up nicely...providing a cover save boost (Stealth or Shrouded, don't have book, can't confirm as can't be arsed to check the massive thread).

Deploy 'skirmish' line of Termagants/Hormogaunts. Keep a Venomthrope tucked behind something big, out of harms way.

Venomthrope drops some great big flappywoofwoofs, filling the air with smog, and bagging all nearby a really ridiculous cover save for something ultimately just standing out in the open. (either 3+ or 4+, depending on which rule it provides).

Opponent force to really concentrate fire and hope for the best, or try to deal with the skirmish screen first and worry about the big stuff later.

Who needs model specific vulnerable saves when you have the potential to fart your way to victory!

[Browntj007]

Venomthropes are shaping up nicely...providing a cover save boost (Stealth or Shrouded, don't have book, can't confirm as can't be arsed to check the massive thread).

Deploy 'skirmish' line of Termagants/Hormogaunts. Keep a Venomthrope tucked behind something big, out of harms way.

Venomthrope drops some great big flappywoofwoofs, filling the air with smog, and bagging all nearby a really ridiculous cover save for something ultimately just standing out in the open. (either 3+ or 4+, depending on which rule it provides).

Opponent force to really concentrate fire and hope for the best, or try to deal with the skirmish screen first and worry about the big stuff later.

Who needs model specific vulnerable saves when you have the potential to fart your way to victory!

Essentially, we're going back to 5th edition with its 4+ cover save for firing through intervening troops. ( Currently 5+, then add 1 for stealth or shrouded ). The skirmish line assault was a great way of engaging the meatsacks - I had enormous success when combined with trygons popping up behind the lines, 'stealers arriving from flanks, and zoans dropping from the sky next to their precious landraiders. If we could only adapt /evolve the ability to charge from outflanking again for 6th, we'd be in great shape. ( I read in another article spores were NOT removed, as you could load up warriors in one) mmm...tasty :D

[Chumbalaya]

My Genestealers and Warriors are staying on the shelf, just like last time.

Sigh.

[KrewL RaiN]

My Venomthropes are coming back for sure. I stopped using them when the cover rules changed in 6th.

I am actually thinking of running Lictor's now... I just have to play around a bit.

LOVE the new Adrenal Glads! I might have to add a few to some models...

A Trigon Prime with that special Venom Cannon sounds silly but its my kind of fun. I tend to play with odd lists, even in small events around here.

I was tinkering with a list, and it's nice to be able to squeeze in more gribbles now!

The book itself does feel like a 5.1 version of Tyranids, not a 6.0.


I am also having that problem I have with making my Daemon lists... you want so many killy shiny guys that its hard to squeeze a chunk of Troops in! It always ends up as a Tervigon and 30 Termagants...

[DWest]

Ouch! For all the talk of stuff getting cheaper, my general-purpose Prime (LW+BS, Toxin, Adrenal) went from 115 points to . . . 170?!
What.
Arbitrary.
Silliness.

Good thing I picked up a second Hive Tyrant I suppose.

[DWest]

Alright, so after dragging out my general-purpose 1500 point list and re-writing it with the new codex, I ended up with the following:
-Gained 11 Termagants
-Lost Mycetic Spore for Dakkafex
-Lost Crushagon (Tervigon + Iron Arm + Crushing Claws . . . good times)
-25 points left to spend

Now, I'm not pretending my list was incredible, and I would definitely modify it if I was going to play the new book; however, I really don't like where I sit now. Whereas before, I could roll up Iron Arm on my Tervigon and she'd singlehandedly take any objective away from anything short of a squad of TH/SS termies, now she feels more like a liability than an asset. I would need to drop or re-think my Genestealers (maybe run them as a couple of fivers just to try to nab objectives?). I understand not everything is going to be good, but they're kinda what drew me to 'nids in the first place, so I'm disappointed that they're junk. I don't like not having the pod-a-fex option to disrupt my opponent, and I could stick a Trygon in there to do the same thing, but not as well. The Prime is also junk as far as I can see, which is again disappointing as I had one converted from a 2ed Hive Tyrant.

In summation, I'm looking at quality decreases, points increases (Hive Guard, Tyranid Prime, and since Tervigons don't share buffs anymore, my Termagants are 8 points a model with toxin sacs and adrenal glands vs. 6 in the old book, and replacements don't even get those buffs), and lost utility. This book is a clear loss for me.

[Kelshin]

Alright, so after dragging out my general-purpose 1500 point list and re-writing it with the new codex, I ended up with the following:
-Gained 11 Termagants
-Lost Mycetic Spore for Dakkafex
-Lost Crushagon (Tervigon + Iron Arm + Crushing Claws . . . good times)
-25 points left to spend

Now, I'm not pretending my list was incredible, and I would definitely modify it if I was going to play the new book; however, I really don't like where I sit now. Whereas before, I could roll up Iron Arm on my Tervigon and she'd singlehandedly take any objective away from anything short of a squad of TH/SS termies, now she feels more like a liability than an asset. I would need to drop or re-think my Genestealers (maybe run them as a couple of fivers just to try to nab objectives?). I understand not everything is going to be good, but they're kinda what drew me to 'nids in the first place, so I'm disappointed that they're junk. I don't like not having the pod-a-fex option to disrupt my opponent, and I could stick a Trygon in there to do the same thing, but not as well. The Prime is also junk as far as I can see, which is again disappointing as I had one converted from a 2ed Hive Tyrant.

In summation, I'm looking at quality decreases, points increases (Hive Guard, Tyranid Prime, and since Tervigons don't share buffs anymore, my Termagants are 8 points a model with toxin sacs and adrenal glands vs. 6 in the old book, and replacements don't even get those buffs), and lost utility. This book is a clear loss for me.

This I think bring up a good point. How important was it for everyone to keep their formerly-gifted biomorphs on their termigants? If they are I think a lot of those freed up points are going to be gone. Are you guys planning on mostly running bare-bones now? I mean, this list basically had a net loss for points.

[citadel]

This I think bring up a good point. How important was it for everyone to keep their formerly-gifted biomorphs on their termigants? If they are I think a lot of those freed up points are going to be gone. Are you guys planning on mostly running bare-bones now? I mean, this list basically had a net loss for points.

I'm bare bones for sure. I can't justify spending 2PPm across 30 gants, but considering we have 20 more than before, do we really need the psn? In any case, I built an 1850 list earlier that would have cost 2070, including the new bugs. Here's my xpost from dakka -

Flyrant w/ 2x TLDevs
Prime

2x VThrope
2x ZThrope

30 Terma
1 Tervi
15 Horma

Crone

3x Carni w/ 2x TLDevs
Exocrine
Malwoc

Left the point totals off since codex not officially released. In all, that's 8 MCs boasting 33 T6 and 5T6 wounds on a 3+ with a marching 5+ Cover save (and 4+ to anything in the back line) with 5 chances to get Catalyst across. Not too shabby. As for troops, I figure out of this I will get at least 4 troops total, possibly 5 if the tervi doesn't double. In any case, it's at least 51 wounds of troop before my first spawn.

[DWest]

I consider poison on Gaunts to be pretty much essential, in order to rack up enough wounds to get them out of a combat. Considering that being locked in combat does *not* keep you from contesting an objective, all you have to do is take something with T5+ and any decent armor save and charge it into the Gaunt pack so that you end up 3" from the objective. The Gaunts pile in and bubble-wrap the enemy model for him; by the end of that round of combat, the enemy model will be surrounded with little bug bases which means I can no longer shoot at it, and as best as I can tell from the assault rules, I can no longer assault that model either (because I can't get the new unit into "base contact" with the enemy). I can't use "our weapons are useless" unless a) the target is T7 *and* I move my Synapse away from the Gaunts (which is quite likely to result in the 30 pack being wiped out by a Sweeping Advance).

So unless I'm wrong about assaulting a wrapped target, no Toxin Sacs = no Gaunts near objectives until I have the enemy units locked down.

[citadel]

I consider poison on Gaunts to be pretty much essential, in order to rack up enough wounds to get them out of a combat. Considering that being locked in combat does *not* keep you from contesting an objective, all you have to do is take something with T5+ and any decent armor save and charge it into the Gaunt pack so that you end up 3" from the objective. The Gaunts pile in and bubble-wrap the enemy model for him; by the end of that round of combat, the enemy model will be surrounded with little bug bases which means I can no longer shoot at it, and as best as I can tell from the assault rules, I can no longer assault that model either (because I can't get the new unit into "base contact" with the enemy). I can't use "our weapons are useless" unless a) the target is T7 *and* I move my Synapse away from the Gaunts (which is quite likely to result in the 30 pack being wiped out by a Sweeping Advance).

So unless I'm wrong about assaulting a wrapped target, no Toxin Sacs = no Gaunts near objectives until I have the enemy units locked down.

In this scenario, right, that would be a strong counter. However, I hope by that time you have recognized the oncoming threat and have adjusted your unit positioning to limit the bubble wrap and still allow your MC to get some swings. He still has to charge the closest model to him, to which you pile in 3". Assuming you have your gants in a screen/line formation, you might get one or two turns before the bubble wrap is 100% complete. Even then, you lose models in combat and he still has to consider 30 overwatch at str4, counter attack, and the ensuing rounds of combat. But yes. If the scenario pans out exactly how you described, it's bone city for the bugs. I still think it's avoidable with positioning though.

[Build]

Not sure if it's relevant, but I was planning on doing a considerable number of articles on nids, from scratch building to conversion work.

Mainly because I some how stumbled on to a ton of GW rejected artwork for nids (everything from rejected zoanthropes, broodlords, tyrants, guard, lictors etc)
Here's an example, no idea why they rejected this Zoanthrope, I think it's epic.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-N_vX9LvITRk/TdoJ-6WyygI/AAAAAAAAAbE/BKOBue3nJBM/w421-h600-no/z6.jpeg

[Mr Mystery]

Ouch! For all the talk of stuff getting cheaper, my general-purpose Prime (LW+BS, Toxin, Adrenal) went from 115 points to . . . 170?!
What.
Arbitrary.
Silliness.


Good thing I picked up a second Hive Tyrant I suppose.

That's the purpose of the thread, to explore the changes to existing lists, whether positive, negative or neutral :)

[Tyrendian]

my old collection was around 3k points (not gonna list everything since there really isn´t a half decent army list to be built out of it, which is why I kinda abandoned them... I pretty much had none of the models that made 5th Ed. bugs good (like Flyrants or Tervigons), and way too many Genestealers and Warriors instead...)
that now adds up to around 2600pts, with very generous upgrades already sprinkeled in - more than I´d really play once I´ve got the models I want for an army I think
And the only thing that really got a lot worse with the new dex for me is the loss of Biomancy (oh and that Ymgarls are gone completely... too bad that...)
On the other hand, it saves me from "having" to buy multiple Tervigons... one at most for me I think...

[Al Shut]

I don't have any fixed thought out lists but I can see some changes in the likelihood of me take certain units in the occasional casual game.

Worst of is probably the Prime. The main reason why I included him was to have a cheap HQ to free up points for other MCs. But with the points increase and Hive Tyrant, Tyranofex and Carnifex all getting cheaper I doubt I'll use him much.

Pretty much on the fence about the Tyrant guard, the bodyguarding improved, points reduced and my Tyrant sure could use some protection after lusing his 2+ armor but I'm very unhappy with my old finecast models in comparison to the new ones (plus having models on not up to date bases always irks me)

Far less keen on the new Tervigon which increase the chances of my Carnifex showing up even more (as soon as I figured out how to configure him)

I fielded some pretty expensive genestealers (toxin sacs and talons) from time to time but with the price going even higher and the Broodlord loosing his instant death biomorph (glued that Tervigon tongue on his butt for nothing) they will likely go into hibernation for quite some time.

Biovores, Zoanthropes and Venomthropes are likely to be maxed out to three models on a more regular basis.

I always found some sporemines to be fun and will give the new ones a try but can't imagine hving much fun having to get them into close combat at half speed.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm quite liking the new Spore Mine rules.

No more random movement direction is a big plus, even when they're slow. With a bit of saturation, you can turn the battle field into a rather unpleasant place for your opponent. Spesh with them now being deployed in unit coherency rather than base to base.

[Tyrendian]

I'm quite liking the new Spore Mine rules.

No more random movement direction is a big plus, even when they're slow. With a bit of saturation, you can turn the battle field into a rather unpleasant place for your opponent. Spesh with them now being deployed in unit coherency rather than base to base.

on the other hand, they will only ever do anything if you get off the charge at half distance - which is pretty much never against any half competent opponent isn´t it?
I also don´t see the huge buff to Biovores the first readers of the dex talked about... they don´t ever get a chance at their second and third shot if the first doesn´t hit, and you´re also not even guaranteed three mines from a whole unit (all unless I´m misreading something ofc)...

[Mr Mystery]

Assuming you've played it, think Torpedos in BFG....

As much as Spore Mines have not inconsiderable destructive potential against infantry, they can also help to restrict your opponents movement, just as Torpedos can be used to break up enemy formations as they attempt to avoid them.

It's tricky, and requires a decent amount on the board, but it is a pokey tactic.

Yes, your opponent can just lightly shoot them up, but that's still firepower directed away from other units :)

[Al Shut]

I also don´t see the huge buff to Biovores the first readers of the dex talked about... they don´t ever get a chance at their second and third shot if the first doesn´t hit,

I was afraid it could be read this way, but it just says the mines are placed, not that they are placed instaed of doing something else.



. Spesh with them now being deployed in unit coherency rather than base to base.

No deep striking?

[Tyrendian]

It's tricky, and requires a decent amount on the board

that´s the main problem I think - every single cluster takes up a FA slot that we can ill afford, what with both FMCs and the brilliant screeners and in-yo-face-goers that are Gargoyles competing with them... sure it can be fun and may even work since it doesn´t cost any points pretty much, but I do think you´d need to be playing double FOC to make good use of them...


I was afraid it could be read this way, but it just says the mines are placed, not that they are placed instaed of doing something else.



good point - I wasn´t even paying attention to that to be honest, just assumed they wouldn´t go off because it seems logical... the bombs are placed on the table after all... might also get FAQ´d...

[Mr Mystery]

Brood of Biovores can provide a decent amount, as can repeated runs from a Harpy.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily for all gamers, but it definitely has it's uses :)

[Kahrel]

A quick summary of my old 2k list "adapting and surviving"....if you can call it that.
My old list had two troops Tervigons, two spore drops with 10devilgaunts each, 2 Trygons, Flyrant, Hive Guards, Zoanthropes, Warriors.

Transferring this to the current codex is a little difficult. The previous army relied heavily on the Tervigons(I know a lot of people relied on those actually...) It now requires you to take a brood of 30 termagants to take a Tervigon as a troops choice... so I won't be doing that.

Now I've got HQs: Flyrant and Tervigon. Troops: Warriors with various CC weapons and a couple of Termagant broods. Hiveguards are staying in. I'm going to try out the Haruspex(in love with that model.)

I know Harpies are super competitive, but honestly I'm not impressed with the model. Call me crazy, but it's just a Carnifex with wings. Which is what people have been converting for the past couple of years. I'm not a competitive player anyway, but go ahead and yell at me if you wish :P

For my heavy support though I'm taking this:
Trygon Primew/Miasmic Cannon
Mawloc
Carnifex Broodx3(Adrenal glands and 1 Dakkafex)

Actually playing with Carnifex's has got me really excited(yay fleet and furious charge!) The Miasmic Cannon will give the TPrime a great first shot after Deep Striking. I'm iffy about the Mawloc, but he's always been there to get behind lines and deny an objective/line breaker/mess with ranged units.

[xsquidz]

All of the below were units I used fairly often.

One of my staples in Gargoyles got hit with a nerf bat imo. AG and TS used to cost one point each, now they cost 2 each! So instead of 10 for 80 now its 10 for 100... plus they new IB means 50% of the time they will just GTG in the open or where they are...weeee. I think they were only really good fully upgraded because you can glance AV 10 to death and kill MC's with poison.

Same with termagants. Upgrades are now double and you don't get them from tervigons any more so I will run these bare bones as fodder so that saves 1 point per model but they are much less effective.

That is the name of the game with this codex, you basically get punished if you upgrade and are forced to swarm... and go big MC wall.

Another staple the hive guard are 5 pts more but have one less BS. Plus their IB means they might just GTG as well.

That is the other beast of this codex, IB is going to kill us hard. So you need to pay the synapse tax and make sure you have enough.

Hive tyrants are now relegated to flyers only IMO as there is no way to get a 2+ save or the biomancy powers but at least that option is 30 points cheaper.

Even rippers got the nerf bat, they cost 3 more points. In the old dex you could get 1 for the price of 2 guants and a ripper had 1 more wound than gaunts so I did use them as meat shields-the cheapest wounds at the front. Now, 3 gaunts are cheaper than a ripper and have the same wounds-mmmmhmmm.

[Orkyboy]

I don't know if anyone else has spotted this but the Tervigon can take Bio Artefacts and this includes the Miasma Cannon for 25 pts. This is 36" poisoned (2+) Assault 1 AP4 Blast or Template poisoned (2+) Assault 1 AP4.

This is a nice shooty option to support the Termagant broods. Stick on the 4+ Regeneration for 30 pts and it is a pretty tough beastie.

[Gumbledore23]

One alternative i am liking quite alot is tyrant guard with either bonesword and lashwhips or crushing claws in a unit of 3 with adrenal glands, they are the same points as the lash whip bone sword variants of last book but have furious charge and fleet to boot not to mention initiative 7 in combat. take my flying hive tyrant as normal and have him start in the unit so as to not get destroyed in first round then separate and run the 3 tyrant guard up to take on MEQs or TEQs depending on weapon options. seems like they hit pretty hard and fairly durable being toughness 6 with the 3+ and best of all they aren't part of the over crowded elites section.

[Wrath]

I don't know if anyone else has spotted this but the Tervigon can take Bio Artefacts and this includes the Miasma Cannon for 25 pts. This is 36" poisoned (2+) Assault 1 AP4 Blast or Template poisoned (2+) Assault 1 AP4.

This is a nice shooty option to support the Termagant broods. Stick on the 4+ Regeneration for 30 pts and it is a pretty tough beastie.

This might not be advisable actually. It will instantly become a magnet for fire and with Backlash at 12" now it may hurt more than help.

[VBthesmall]

is no one going to talk about how scything talons got nerfed to the ground?? the trygon is a lot worse now than before because of it(no re-roll to hit anymore)

I do however like that they put deathleaper as a HQ, he has alwasy been one of my favorite units and now I don't have to use an Elite slot for him!

But then again.... WHERE IS MY DOOOOOOOOOM??? I will miss that little irritating *******. I guess he didn't survive the nerf hammer...

[Anggul]

Things are cheaper, some of my stuff is better, so as long as I mostly use the same stuff as before plus maybe a couple of the new models I'm fine, but most of the stuff that I wanted to be able to use now (such as Genestealers, Warriors, Pyrovores and Tyrannofexes) still aren't useful. Oh, and what's up with the massive increase in cost for the Tyranid Prime? Did I miss something? Were they declared underpriced by everyone?

Lictors are an odd one. Infiltrating homing beacon has a fair few applications with Tyranids, but they're still pretty squishy in close combat so aren't quite the terrors you would hope. They're much better than before though, it's amazing what the simple addition of Infiltrate has opened up for them.

Like I say, pretty much everything that was decent before is still decent, a couple of things are better, a couple of things got random little nerfs for no apparent reason (Hive Guard losing a point of BS and Scything Talons being nerfed come to mind), and some things are still somewhere betweent meh and rubbish (sadly Genestealers are one of them). It's better than the previous codex, I'll make that very clear, but still seems pretty half-arsed job. The whole 'design team' idea shows, because the quality fluctuates so randomly from really good and clever to really poor and random it seems as if they put each person in separate rooms with allocated things to write about and didn't let them talk to each other and critique each others ideas.

I'm still going to have fun with a fair few of my models, it's just sad that so many of them are still not useful and some got worse for no reason.

Oh, also Hive/Tyrant Guard are even bigger now and still don't have 3 wounds like they clearly should. I'd gladly pay more points, I just want the rules to properly reflect the models. I also think they missed an opportunity to make the Haruspex really unique and representing its maw by letting it place some kind of Initative or opposed-Strength test based small blast in base contact with it in close combat to represent it trying to nom down a bunch of dudes.

[Brian Brenner]

WHERE IS MY DOOOOOOOOOM??? I will miss that little irritating *******. I guess he didn't survive the nerf hammer...

The business model is so different now i don't think it's appropriate to talk about nerfs or bans. I would bet that Doom will show up in a data slate or hive fleet sub codex. All we are really getting is the foundation, the nick nacks and do dads will be dribbled out to us in the coming months and years.

Now to start with a nice Kill Team of warriors and gaunts.

[daboarder]

We've had 2 characters.
The supplements are more about slight tweeks to the way the main armies play and the formations apart from the tau one are only really an even slighter tweek.

There is no evidence yet to suggest that GW is going full steam ahead with DLC. Its much more likely that they merely approached the nid codex with the same attitude they did the 5th ed one

[evilamericorp]

I think the worst part is something most people expected - nerfing the Tervigon. I just couldn't imagine how far they would go into making it god awful. Not only did it get more expensive, but it lost out in every single aspect of its rules:

-Fewer psychic power rolls, this went from having up to 3 powers to only ever getting 1
-Worse powers, now that it can't choose Catalyst and has to hope it rolls a 1
-The loss of Biomancy, coupled with making crushing claws entirely pointless, means the Terv is no longer even close to the amazing close combat monster it was, getting it stuck in will mean death now.
-It no longer helps nearby gaunts. Let me ****ing say that again, louder: IT NO LONGER HELPS NEARBY GAUNTS. No more cheap furious charge and poison and Ld10 counter charge, it now gives nothing but counter charge on the gaunts native Ld of 6.
-Since it no longer helps them, it should no longer hurt them when it dies, right? WRONG! They doubled the radius of it's death feedback! Say goodbye to any unit of gaunts within 12" when it goes down. It's like walking a bomb around in the middle of your army... that can only hurt you.
-And just in case you thought spawned gaunts even had a chance to get away from this god damn holy hand grenade, NOPE! They can no longer move or assault the turn they are spawned, just sit there and wait to either get shot or have their brains fried by their own mother.
-And cluster spines are no longer free, because **** you.

All this AND it got more expensive? **** you, GW. You knew everyone and their mothers already had tons of Tervigons, so you wanted to make them **** so people would buy new models. This is worse of a raping than carnifexes took going from 4th to 5th. I'm just glad I magnetized mine so I can try out slightly cheaper T-fexes.

[John Morgan]

forget comparison it won't work with my list since spore and ymgarl are out of the codex, OOOOooo gaunts are 1 pt cheaper but biomorph is more pts so no save in pts and really no access to any other psy powers.......

[Duke_Mantis]

Its kind of late where i am so i dont have time for a lengthy post... but i will say this to those of you that have the new Codex at hand.

Think how important it was in the previous book for Tyranids to disrupt and threaten the enemy backfield... via spores... ymgarls... whatever.

Ok?

Now take a look at that teeny tiny 2point upgrade available to the troop choice option in the book that is a mere 39 points....

Then calculate what they could do if spammed, given spinefists and rained on enemy infantry gunlines or gunbunkers (centurions or anything with wounds).

Goodnight :)

[daboarder]

likely eat themselves

[kublade]

is no one going to talk about how scything talons got nerfed to the ground?? the trygon is a lot worse now than before because of it(no re-roll to hit anymore)

I do however like that they put deathleaper as a HQ, he has alwasy been one of my favorite units and now I don't have to use an Elite slot for him!

But then again.... WHERE IS MY DOOOOOOOOOM??? I will miss that little irritating *******. I guess he didn't survive the nerf hammer...

Scything talons was the biggest hit to me, as most of my army was based around these re-roll weapons of doom! I feel like I wasted magnets into my scything talons now. I would usually run a Hive Tyrant, with dual scything talons, Adrenal, toxin, regen, and armored shell. He could walk around, destroy everything in his path, soak up hits, and be even better with his psyker BRB powers, but now, no re-rolls to hit, no +2 armor, no books powers, losing Iron arm, Enfeeble, Endurance hurts bad, as those were good for surviving, or enfeeble to combo in smash and ID any T6 model. The Hive Tyrant is now a weak HQ in my opinion, he got cheaper base, but now pays more for weapons that will actually do something, loss of an upgrade for a 2+. I'd rather go 5th Ed for this model.

I like deathleaper, fluff wise, and model wise. But rules wise, he's received a round of nerfs and two buffs. He no longer rends on any 5s or 6s. Only on 6 in close combat. He is now an HQ slot, which seems like a waste, sure Elites was over-crowded, but that doesn't mean make something that is clearly an Elite option, fill a slot he is not meant to fill. It's nice he can only be hit on snap shots, but in some cases, it won't make him survivable, with only 3 wounds, and toughness 4.

I always hated Tervigons, I got 2 of them in a really nice deal for a whole lot of tyranids, but I rarely used more than one. They were a crutch really, it was a very good, if not over powered model. However, it received increase in points, a huge decrease in effectiveness. You're better off leaving this on the shelf now. Like I said, I hated them, but they got nerfed to death, instead of balanced.

The myscetic spore loss was extremely insulting to me, as I just finished making one in late November. Why would they take away such an important, and iconic model? How do our models arrive to the battlefield now? We just land our huge bio-ships and drop off the swarm?

Things we always got free, now cost points. Thorax swarms for tyrannofex, stinger salvo, etc. Yes, we got point reductions, but now all our options that used to be free cost a crap ton.

Tyranid Prime has been referenced several times thus far, how did a 110-120 something model with all upgrades, go to about 180 points? The Prime is not over powered, he has never been complained about, he was not unbalanced, he was just a normal HQ unit, that got nerfed into the ground point wise.

Trygon Prime is 10 points less, but after adding in his bio-morph increase, he's 10 points costlier, which is quite lame, considering he is no where near as good in close combat as before, we no re-rolls on scything talons, so base wise, he has lost a good deal of effectiveness, with just the major nerf to scything talons.

This is kind of became a rant, but I fully stand by the fact that I was much happier with 5th edition, rather than this new Tyranid Nerf Edition.

[Al Shut]

likely eat themselves

But they wouldn't have to test on their first turn, would they?




That is the other beast of this codex, IB is going to kill us hard. So you need to pay the synapse tax and make sure you have enough.


That's why we got more synapse enhancing options now. Which reminds me, what comes first, blessing or testing for instinctive behavior?

[daboarder]

But they wouldn't have to test on their first turn, would they?


No they wouldn't. but they certainly cant "disrupt" the enemy on the turn they show up either, unless you want to by spinefist, but then no one is going to be overly worried about expensive S3 shots.....


Things we always got free, now cost points. Thorax swarms for tyrannofex, stinger salvo, etc. Yes, we got point reductions, but now all our options that used to be free cost a crap ton.

THIS is a major issue, there are very few units in the book that work naked, and as soon as you put the tools on them that let them do their job then we're right back where we started or worse of in some cases.

[Captain Bubonicus]

The myscetic spore loss was extremely insulting to me, as I just finished making one in late November. Why would they take away such an important, and iconic model? How do our models arrive to the battlefield now? We just land our huge bio-ships and drop off the swarm?

Yeah, I'm with you, there. It looks like the entire army HAS to foot-slog it now - no more army-wide deep striking, period. That makes set up (the most important part of 40K, eh?) routine as hell, and will make 'Nids a lot less interesting to play.

[kjolnir]

I played a test game last night with a buddy of mine.

Mawlocs are going to absolutely eviscerate backfield troops. Watch out if people take 3.

Also, the Crone's vector strike is probably going to be one of the most hated things in the game.

I kitted both my Flyrants out with 1 x twin-linked devourers, LW + BS + TS, and the haywire thorax swarm. I REALLY like the +3 to initiative, and you're not giving up much shooting that isn't made up for elsewhere in the codex.

Biovores are really good, really like them, and I really like the new Exocrines. Not as impressed with the Haruspex yet, and not sure that Lictors are really playable.

And, believe it or not, there might be some security through obscurity for warriors. With all that other stuff on the table, if you play them right and protect them, they might actually last the game. Deathspitters + rending claws makes a squad of 3 pretty effective. I was just using them for backfield synapse but they bring some credible damage to the table if someone wants to try to mess with them back there.

Still it was only one game but I did like the way it went. At 1995 points, I had 6MCs and 120 gants on the table, plus 6 warriors and 2 biovores.

We'll see how the next few games go.

[n00bzilla99]

I played a test game last night with a buddy of mine.

Mawlocs are going to absolutely eviscerate backfield troops. Watch out if people take 3.

Also, the Crone's vector strike is probably going to be one of the most hated things in the game.

I kitted both my Flyrants out with 1 x twin-linked devourers, LW + BS + TS, and the haywire thorax swarm. I REALLY like the +3 to initiative, and you're not giving up much shooting that isn't made up for elsewhere in the codex.

Biovores are really good, really like them, and I really like the new Exocrines. Not as impressed with the Haruspex yet, and not sure that Lictors are really playable.

And, believe it or not, there might be some security through obscurity for warriors. With all that other stuff on the table, if you play them right and protect them, they might actually last the game. Deathspitters + rending claws makes a squad of 3 pretty effective. I was just using them for backfield synapse but they bring some credible damage to the table if someone wants to try to mess with them back there.

Still it was only one game but I did like the way it went. At 1995 points, I had 6MCs and 120 gants on the table, plus 6 warriors and 2 biovores.

We'll see how the next few games go.

I think this is the way to play this codex... a lot of bodies backed up by hard hitting MC's. Overwhelm target priority to the point where so much stuff crashes into your opponents lines that it all hurts terribly. I'm not looking so doom-and-gloom now, I'm starting to see some definite upside to the codex.

[Mr Mystery]

I'd agree with that.

The book appears to lack an automatic win button unit. Which to my mind is how things should be.

There are various builds a player might consider, with the main deciding factor being personal preference. Is the army top tier or what have you? Absolutely no idea, nor does anyone really until a bunch of games have been played against a bunch of different opponents.

[Sly]

Yeah, I'm with you, there. It looks like the entire army HAS to foot-slog it now - no more army-wide deep striking, period. That makes set up (the most important part of 40K, eh?) routine as hell, and will make 'Nids a lot less interesting to play.

Exactly why I complain so much about the CSM Codex... no viable alternative to "deploy in own deployment zone, and come across in Rhinos". Except for Nids it will be "on foot". And CSM at least get the option to run Allies who do have alternate deployment options for Troops. Nids are very much boned in terms of not having options to play differently in different games.

[daboarder]

you can buy hive commander on two tyrants and out flank. if you want

[Anakzar]

Posted this in the lists section first but thought it should go here instead. I will likely trade out the hiveguard for venomthropes freeing up 30 points for some spore mines go with this as my first list for 6th ed codex. I don't think I will stick with the Haruspex but wanted to field it just to see if he is worth taking up an elite slot very crowded section. I will be using the old armorcast models for both the exocrine and the Haruspex... they are oop but were made with a license from GW so I don't see why they could not be used in a tournament if it comes to that. Overall the drops in points are balanced by the increases in points if I stick close to my old list. More than likely I will rethink a few things like warriors, they didn't become better but may have uses if only because other new scary MCs will take more fire.

This is a fairly typical list of mine 2k single Force org chart(commonly played here due to tourney rules); Followed by what I will likely do for the new codex (sticking as close as possible while fitting in new stuff)

5th ed 2000pts single force org list
HQ (405pts)

Hive Tyrant (275pts) Base @ 170 with Lash whip and bonesword + Regeneration (20pts) + Toxin sacs (10pts) + Twin-linked devourers with brainleech worms (15pts) + Wings (60pts)

Tyranid Prime (130pts) Base @ 80 + Adrenal glands (10pts) + Deathspitter(5pts) + Lash whip and bonesword(15pts) + Regeneration(10pts) + Toxin sacs (10pts)


Elites (470pts)

Hive Guard Brood (150pts) 3x Hive Guard @ 50pts each

The Doom of Malan'Ttai (145pts) base @ 90pts with Mycectic spore 40pts + barbed strangler 15pts

Zoanthrope Brood (180pts) 3x Zoanthrope @ 60pts each

Troops (510pts)

Termagant Brood (300pts) 30x Termagant @ 5pts each with devourers @ pts

Tervigon (troop) (205pts) Base @ 160pts + Crushing Claws(25pts) + Toxin Sacs (10pts) + Adrenal glands(10pts)

Fast Attack (140pts)

Gargoyle Brood (140pts) 20x Gargoyle with toxin @ 7pts each

Heavy Support (475pts)

Biovore Brood (135pts) 3x Biovore @ 45pts each

Mawloc (170pts)

Mawloc (170pts)


6th ed 2000pts single force org list
HQ (480pts)

Hive Tyrant (285pts) Base @ 165 + Lash whip and bonesword(20pts) + Regeneration (30pts) + Toxin sacs (10pts) + Twin-linked devourers with brainleech worms (15pts) + Wings (35pts) {adding tail pincer(10pts) because an extra attack can't hurt hum well he does have ML 2 now}

Tyranid Prime (195pts) Base @ 125 + Adrenal glands (15pts) + Deathspitter(5pts) + Lash whip and bonesword(20pts) + Regeneration(30pts) + Toxin sacs (10pts) {huge increase in points ouch! may have to drop regen... still too costly damn don't know if I will field him, liked to pop him into the 30 strong group of termagants.}


Elites (490pts)

Hive Guard Brood (165pts) 3x Hive Guard @ 55pts each { lost a BS and gained 5 points?!?! hum may drop them for a Lictor brood they dropped 15pts each so would be 150}

Haruspex (175pts) Base @ 160pts + adrenal glands(15pts){ The Doom of Malan'Ttai gone completely will run a Haruspex instead }

Zoanthrope Brood (150pts) 3x Zoanthrope @ 50pts each {gained 30 points there helpful but didn't completely off set the Haruspex in place of the doom got to hope for more points gain in troops }

Troops (435pts)

Termagant Brood (240pts) 30x Termagant @ 8pts each with devourers {nice points drop but may have to atleast put toxin back on due to loss of tervigon buffage meaning they go back up to 300pts}

Tervigon (troop) (195pts) Base @ 195pts { may just run him bare bones due to extreme cost increase plus 12 inch kill zone for termagants and loss of buffage for termagants}

Fast Attack (165pts)

Hive crone (165pts) Base 155 + stinger salvo(10pts) {dropping the Gargoyles in favor of a new model liking the rake vector strike/ harpy looks good too but both are fragile}

Heavy Support (430pts)

Biovore Brood (120pts) 3x Biovore @ 40pts each { net gain of 15 there}

Mawloc (140pts) { net gain of 30 there}

Exocrin (170pts) {dropping one mawloc to play with new model same cost as old mawloc}

That's the rework of an old list for now... would likely think about trying to get poison on the termagants or even dropping the devourers and going adrenal and toxin instead. Also the prime is very costly so might think about dropping regen there and lictors instead of hive guard to free up points for a spore mine cluster(really like the new rules for those)

[Al Shut]

I fielded some pretty expensive genestealers (toxin sacs and talons) from time to time but with the price going even higher and the Broodlord loosing his instant death biomorph (glued that Tervigon tongue on his butt for nothing) they will likely go into hibernation for quite some time.


After some thought I'd like to change that into 100% certainty I won't field them in the foreseeable future. I don't feel like changing the arms of an entire unit and flat out refuse to pay 4 points for an additional attack.

To be replaced with whatever troop choice I would have rotated out of the mix to make room for this expensive unit, chances of outflanking via Tyrant ability risen to compensate the loss of infiltration.