Dangerous Terrain Test w/ Jump Infantry

[NeverCryWolf]

I've got a problem with it and ask a question on "Bolter & Chainsword" (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=187292). I'm just curious what other guys here think about it. So here goes again. (Appologize first. It will be quite long.)

Recently, my local players have argued with a problem and cannot find a CORRECT answer. Because my mother tounge is NOT english, there're difficulties to fully understand the text.

Here goes a describtion of Jump Infantry in the first part of 5ed rule book.

===========
JUMP INFANTRY
Jump infantry are equipped with jump packs, jet packs, sometimes wings, teleport devices or other means of moving quickly over short distances. They commonly take advantage of these by dropping onto the battlefield in the midst of the enemy – heroically or foolishly depending on your perspective. Jump infantry can move like normal infantry or activate their jump device to make a high-speed move, combining some of the best elements of both mounted and ordinary infantry. Jump infantry tend to be a rare and valuable commodity in most armies.
===========

and "Unt Types" part, they say

===========
JUMP INFANTRY
...
- Movement
Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish. When using jump packs, movement is not reduced for difficult terrain, and jump pack equipped models can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.

- Assault
Jump infantry assault 6" like normal infantry. This move is slowed by difficult terrain in the same way as other infantry, because the unit always covers the last few yards of an assault on foot.
===========

As stressed in bold, Jump Infantry can choose to move on foot. So I thought if they land in open terrain and assault into forest or something is NOT a kind of situation that causes Dangerous Terrain Tests! But some insisted they have to. That is the part I've confused.

Question is, "Do ALL Jump Infantry's movements(including Assault move) into/out of difficult terrain cause Dangerous Terrain Tests, no matter how they move(with Jump Packs or on foot)?"

The sentence starts with "However" in [JUMP INFANTRY - Movement] section stands against all three sentences or just one sentence before it?

......

And here comes a bigger problem! One of the guys who thought Jump Infantry must take dangerous terrain test in any circumstances comes out to be THE ONLY ONE Miniature Game Shop keeper in Korea~! (Yes, I'm a Korean, South!! Not North with nuke-armed bad guy. Market is small but here ARE 40k players. Fantasy and Warmachine also.)

He treated me like an idiot and told everyone else my understanding of the part of this problem comes from LACK OF MY ENGLISH ABILITY~!

But something interesting is he has an e-mail that - he insists - Adam Troke, one of developers of 5th Edition, had sent to him. These are screenshots he have posted his own blog. What do you guys think about this? I think Adam's answer IS something like an idiot and lacks a sense of reponsibility, he only justifies his own view without solving a problem with confusing text!

...I become curious that all other developers would say in the same way.


screenshot #1 - http://pds15.egloos.com/pds/200911/29/09/c0080309_4b11f290374bb.jpg

screenshot #2 - http://pds16.egloos.com/pds/200911/29/09/c0080309_4b11f2a05072d.jpg

[Nabterayl]

I think it is clear that you are correct - if jump infantry assaults into Difficult Terrain, it does not take a Dangerous Terrain test (by corollary, jump infantry would not take a Dangerous Terrain test if it consolidated into or out of Difficult Terrain, or if it Ran into or out of Difficult Terrain).

The rules are not well written in English. Specifically, the sentence, "However, if a jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test," when read on its own, supports the interpretation that jump infantry need to take a Dangerous Terrain test from Difficult Terrain simply by virtue of being jump infantry.

However, I still believe you are right. Take the two sentences together:


When using jump packs, movement is not reduced for difficult terrain, and jump pack equipped models can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if a jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.

I think, as a native English speaker, it is plain that the word "however" that starts the second sentence links its thought to the prior sentence. In other words, the rule is that jump infantry takes a Dangerous Terrain test for beginning or ending its move in Difficult Terrain "when using jump packs." This is the same mechanic that jetbikes use, and presumably has the exact same rationale.

Jump infantry are only ever allowed to use their jump packs in the Movement phase and when they Fall Back. As a result, they only ever take Dangerous Terrain tests from Difficult Terrain in the Movement phase - and only then if they choose to use their jump packs in the Movement phase. When jump infantry Run, assault, or consolidate, they are not using their jump packs (the jump infantry assault rules even explicitly note that they assault on foot), and so do not take Dangerous Terrain tests from Difficult Terrain.

Finally, I should add that in my opinion, Adam's e-mail doesn't answer the question one way or the other. All it says is that the jump infantry has to take a Dangerous Terrain test if they "start or end movement" in Difficult Terrain, which is simply quoting the rules without explaining how they apply to the question. "Adam" (if it is Adam) then goes on to explain the rationale behind the rule, that it's dangerous to fly through the air at high speeds when the takeoff and landing zones are not clear. Not only did we all understand this already (I imagine) - if anything, it argues for your position, since jump infantry are neither taking off nor landing when they make assaults.

[The AKH]

As far as I know, Jump Infantry only incur Dangerous Terrain tests in the Movement phase if they take off from or land in Difficult Terrain. I've never heard anyone say otherwise.

[Mike X]

As far as I know, Jump Infantry only incur Dangerous Terrain tests in the Movement phase if they take off from or land in Difficult Terrain. I've never heard anyone say otherwise.

Yup.

[lobster-overlord]

So, reading that rule listing again, anything you move them under 6 inches, you can opt to do it as normal movement and consider them "walking" into terrain rather than 6 to 12 inches jumping...? Is that correct too? We've never played like that.

John M>

[energongoodie]

So, reading that rule listing again, anything you move them under 6 inches, you can opt to do it as normal movement and consider them "walking" into terrain rather than 6 to 12 inches jumping...? Is that correct too? We've never played like that.

John M>

Yep

[NeverCryWolf]

Nabterayl // Thanks very much! You may not know how much your answer encourages me~!

The AKH, Mike X, energongoodie // Thanks for your answers. I always wondered how foreigners(for me) play with this rule from the beginning of the argument. Any of you or someone you know has an expeirence in how GW tounaments apply this rule?

[Nabterayl]

So, reading that rule listing again, anything you move them under 6 inches, you can opt to do it as normal movement and consider them "walking" into terrain rather than 6 to 12 inches jumping...? Is that correct too? We've never played like that.

John M>
More specifically, during the Movement phase only you can have them "walk," and be treated like normal infantry. Note, though, that you have to decide whether to walk or use their jump packs before you move them. You can't measure their move, find out you only want to move them 5", and then say, "Oh, I guess they'll walk."

When Running, consolidating, or assaulting, they must "walk," and be treated like normal infantry. When Falling Back, they must use their jump packs, and be treated like jump infantry (see page 52).

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Why not? You can pre-measure all movement, I thought.

[gcsmith]

no, there is no pre measure in 40k, while u can measure 6" in any direction and chose to move only 4" u must declare they walk 1st.

[Nabterayl]

Page 3 says that you're only allowed to measure distances when specifically told to. I could just be missing it, but I don't see any pre-measurement authorization in the movement rules.

[lobster-overlord]

I was specifically only referencing when I want to enter terrain and know that I want to move them less than 6 inches. No measurements until moving for my question.

[Little Brother]

I don't think those emails are from Adam Troke at all. GW are notorious are typos and rules that can be interpretted several ways but that that email is gibberish.

Either it was written by Adam when he was very drunk, or it was written by someone for whom English is not their native tongue.

[Duke]

Even though it is confusing, NAb and the others are right. you must say if they are walking or jumping, then move them. If they are jumping then you also have to roll for dangerous, and also again if they jump out of the terrain.

As far as the email I think it is a fake one.

Duke

[NeverCryWolf]

I don't think those emails are from Adam Troke at all. GW are notorious are typos and rules that can be interpretted several ways but that that email is gibberish.

Either it was written by Adam when he was very drunk, or it was written by someone for whom English is not their native tongue.

Little Brother, Duke // Suspicion isn't necessary, I think. At least for now, I know he is NOT a man of cheating and I really don't want it becomes "I knew". I just wanted clarification. When I insert "- he insists -" into the sentence, I've just meant there's no reference or something to support the e-mail is truely comes from Adam except the e-mail itself, not to suspect him. You know, self-evidence cannot warrants anything.

Anyway your answers are helpful. Thanks~

P.S. Duke // Your signature(is this right to call it? the sentences below a line.) is very ... ummm ... impressive!

[Duke]

P.S. Duke // Your signature(is this right to call it? the sentences below a line.) is very ... ummm ... impressive!

Glad you like it... though "impressive," is a new one.

Duke