Are the Mysterious Carcharodons Actually War Hounds Returning from Deep Space?

[OzDestro]

Hi there!
SO i've been working a lot on my War Hounds and it may be driving me loopy, but I have this theory that sees the War Hounds playing a part in the current era of the WH40k universe.

I wrote a much lengthier explanation here (http://www.ozdestro.com/3/post/2014/01/are-the-mysteriouscarcharodons-actually-war-hounds.html), but I'd like to get your feedback.

- So the XIIth Legion, the War Hounds, were a legion split - 8,000 of them became the Bloody 13th and the rest were sent into space as (effectively) shock troops.
- When they were reunited with their Primarch the War Hounds became the World Eaters and went a bit rogue!
- The Horus Heresy happened (small thing - may have heard of it)
- Then, thousands of years later from deepest space comes the Carcharodons dressed in old armour types and Crusade-era ships.
- Their roots are mysterious and go back almost to the dawn of the Imperium.
- They do however have an affinity for the chainaxe/ chainsword and close combat to the point of relishing in the brutality - exactly what the War Hounds were sent away for!

So my theory is that these Chapters are one and the same.

Ladies and gentlemen - thanks for your time - would love your feedback on this idea...!


(BTW, Carcharodons is by far the most annoying Marine Chapter to write!)

[Psychosplodge]

Never subjected to the butchers nails, so never followed Angron's fall?

[OzDestro]

Never subjected to the butchers nails, so never followed Angron's fall?

Great point!
I was only thinking untainted - but yes - I hadn't factored the nails in.

[Psychosplodge]

There's been small examples of traitor legion members staying loyal, so it's entirely possible given the scales involved.
Plus if its your head cannon, short of actual contradictory cannon material why not?

[mikeramos]

U make an excellent point I always thought gw and FW hinted at chapters being part of the old legions I thought it was written some where that they even used gene seed of traitor legion for a founding of new chapters.
Minotaurs= iron warriors the whole siege warfare and maze like environment of their ship,
Blood ravens = thousand sons prospero burns, and Dow games and books

Red scorpions = emperors children the whole purity thing, just throwing it out their

[Psychosplodge]

Wasn't it suggested the cursed founding used non-ultramarine geneseed?

[mikeramos]

Yes even makes a reference on 40k wiki about a chapter that was as durable as the death guard legion

[OzDestro]

Wasn't it suggested the cursed founding used non-ultramarine geneseed?

The 23rd too...

[OzDestro]

That's really interesting! I didn't know about those others, though I'd heard rumours about the Blood Ravens but haven't read that book.

[Mr Mystery]

It's also now explicitly stated in the Space Marine Codex that Guilliman put a timed stasis lock on the 'traitor' Geneseed held on Terra from before the Heresy....

And that lock is now open.

[Badtucker]

i thought the space sharks were likely to be from Raven guard stock, giving that they have similar gene seed mutations

[Psychosplodge]

How did I miss that?

[OzDestro]

i thought the space sharks were likely to be from Raven guard stock, giving that they have similar gene seed mutations

There seems to be a lot of confusion about the Carcharodons and the Space Sharks.
Space Sharks are likely to be White Scars apparently...
There seems to be lots of conjecture about the Carcharodons - all the best for speculation.

[Psychosplodge]

I thought the Charcharodens were the space sharks?

[OzDestro]

I thought the Charcharodens were the space sharks?

I know, right?
Me too!
Apparently not...
There seems to be some debate now in this new Forge World reimagined world!

[Psychosplodge]

I thought they were interchangeably used in whichever anthology has a story in. Can't remember if it was a hammer and bolter or one of the of the space marines

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

If they are descendant from a Traitor Legion (which I hope not, that plotline always comes off as too fanfic-y), I'd say Night Lords, since Night Lords, Carcharodons and Raven Guard all have the "pale skin, black eyes" thing going for them.

Also, didn't Forgeworld outright say at one of the gamesdays that "Carcharodons Astra" was the new name they picked for Space Sharks? I didn't think there was any debate about the fact the names were interchangeable.

[David Crossley]

I thought the Charcharodens were the space sharks?

They are, the 'in universe' explanation is that Space Sharks is their name in low gothic (the 40k version of English) while Charcharodens Astra is their name in high gothic (the 40k version of latin), and because they've been away from the imperium from so long they still mainly speak in high gothic rather than the more common low gothic.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Also, it's worth keeping in mind that the whole "are typically equipped with older armour marks" thing was probably inspired mostly by Forgeworld's then-new range of old armour mark kits!

[Sitnam]

If they are descendant from a Traitor Legion (which I hope not, that plotline always comes off as too fanfic-y), I'd say Night Lords, since Night Lords, Carcharodons and Raven Guard all have the "pale skin, black eyes" thing going for them.

I think Forgeworld likes to play with the unknown founding/mysterious origins trope a bit too much. I personally like chapters better when the don't cop out on who their primogenitors are. I also agree that Raven Guard make the most sense, and if they were ever better expanded on I think a connection between the Carcharodons and Corax's experiments

[OzDestro]

They are, the 'in universe' explanation is that Space Sharks is their name in low gothic (the 40k version of English) while Charcharodens Astra is their name in high gothic (the 40k version of latin), and because they've been away from the imperium from so long they still mainly speak in high gothic rather than the more common low gothic.

I thought so too - it makes sense - but then there seem to be seperate entries that give very separate backgrounds.
Space Sharks are a 2nd Founding Chapter, but Carcharodons are 23rd Founding for example.
I'd be happier if they were the same, but now I'm not sure.

:confused:

[OzDestro]

If they are descendant from a Traitor Legion (which I hope not, that plotline always comes off as too fanfic-y), I'd say Night Lords, since Night Lords, Carcharodons and Raven Guard all have the "pale skin, black eyes" thing going for them.

Also, didn't Forgeworld outright say at one of the gamesdays that "Carcharodons Astra" was the new name they picked for Space Sharks? I didn't think there was any debate about the fact the names were interchangeable.

To be fair the War Hounds aren't traitors - elements went rogue following their Primarch and then were artificially implanted with "nails" to make them so.
These guys in space would have missed all that.

[Psychosplodge]

I thought so too - it makes sense - but then there seem to be seperate entries that give very separate backgrounds.
Space Sharks are a 2nd Founding Chapter, but Carcharodons are 23rd Founding for example.
I'd be happier if they were the same, but now I'm not sure.

:confused:

But don't forget if thats from the wiki its not necessarily current.

https://24.media.tumblr.com/df0bfb8cefc7e1e2d0a7a5b022cd4bf0/tumblr_mnupmmFYKX1so9972o1_500.jpg

[OzDestro]

But don't forget if thats from the wiki its not necessarily current.


Fair call!

[Denzark]

I don't really go for the whole 'Chapters with unknown background' scenario. I work on the assumption that 'deep space' is say, beyond the astronomican - or at least in remote areas. But if there is a return from this unspecified direction, into well used imperial space, they would surely come to the attention of the administratum (through planetary governors) and/or the inquisition.

Now if they are a space-bound chapter, a chapter strength naval formation, even one battle barge, coming into imperium occuied space, would be picked up quite quickly. Especially if they are fighting alongside imperial forces.

Only 'occult' type stories make sense - a la the Legion of the Damned - but a physical body of Space Marines at Chapter strength - would probably have their backgrounds disclosed to the imperial authorities. And pre-heresy legion remnants would be subject to massed scrutiny.

I think, anything else would be a 'deus ex machina' if that is the correct terminology...

[Patrick Boyle]

I don't really go for the whole 'Chapters with unknown background' scenario. I work on the assumption that 'deep space' is say, beyond the astronomican - or at least in remote areas. But if there is a return from this unspecified direction, into well used imperial space, they would surely come to the attention of the administratum (through planetary governors) and/or the inquisition.

Now if they are a space-bound chapter, a chapter strength naval formation, even one battle barge, coming into imperium occuied space, would be picked up quite quickly. Especially if they are fighting alongside imperial forces.

Only 'occult' type stories make sense - a la the Legion of the Damned - but a physical body of Space Marines at Chapter strength - would probably have their backgrounds disclosed to the imperial authorities. And pre-heresy legion remnants would be subject to massed scrutiny.

I think, anything else would be a 'deus ex machina' if that is the correct terminology...

Assuming records of their background still exist. I can't speak for the Space Sharks background, but in the case of the Blood Ravens and Exorcists(I think was the other one?) the latest Marine codex states that records of their creation are either lost or locked under Inquisitorial seal.

The fluff talks about entire worlds 'disappearing' out of Imperial records for centuries at a time, and the Marine codex talks about a case where two different Chapters of marines with the same name and heraldry showed up to some battle because there'd been a clerical error somewhere resulting in the same chapter being founded twice after its creation was approved. It's not out of the realm of reason for some chapters to have lost the records of their founding given all of that.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Wasn't it suggested the cursed founding used non-ultramarine geneseed?
The Fire Hawks were Ultramarines geneseed in the original story. Forgeworld decided to fan-fictionicize them when they wrote IA9 and make them "mysterioussss".

[Veteran Sergeant]

It's not out of the realm of reason for some chapters to have lost the records of their founding given all of that.
The oldest written account of the Iliad comes from the 10th century. That means that it was an oral tradition for, give or take, 1,000 years. While little details may have changed, nobody forgot one side was the Greeks and the other was the Trojans, lol.

Do we really think that Space Marines, who live for hundreds of years and exist in a time where they have technology that produces ships that can travel faster than light via an alternate universe, somehow "forgot" what their geneseed was? How does that happen?

The Imperium might lose the records. But it's pretty far fetched to believe that the Chapters themselves would forget. Maybe the Space Sharks just aren't telling. Maybe they changed their name to avoid the law. ;)

[Patrick Boyle]

The oldest written account of the Iliad comes from the 10th century. That means that it was an oral tradition for, give or take, 1,000 years. While little details may have changed, nobody forgot one side was the Greeks and the other was the Trojans, lol.

Do we really think that Space Marines, who live for hundreds of years and exist in a time where they have technology that produces ships that can travel faster than light via an alternate universe, somehow "forgot" what their geneseed was? How does that happen?

The Imperium might lose the records. But it's pretty far fetched to believe that the Chapters themselves would forget. Maybe the Space Sharks just aren't telling. Maybe they changed their name to avoid the law. ;)

And how much did the story change from the original telling in those 1,000 years, as each new person passed it on, adding their own touch or flair? Now multiply that over potentially up to 10,000 years(or more, time in the warp is weird) of constant warfare, technology that barely works and religious zealotry against anything perceived as heretical. The truth of even important stuff is going to get 'lost', intentionally or not, along the way.

And again regardless of the Space Sharks specific situation(which I can't speak to, but I don't see why GW vs FW writing it makes any difference), you have the Blood Ravens at the least who canon don't know anything about their founding(or didn't until Davian Thule dug up the records on Kronus and promptly destroyed them...), and other Chapters like the Exorcists where if they know they're not telling and the actual records outside the chapter either don't exist or are sealed.

[Psychosplodge]

The Fire Hawks were Ultramarines geneseed in the original story. Forgeworld decided to fan-fictionicize them when they wrote IA9 and make them "mysterioussss".

There's an original 40k story? Is it Ian Watson's Space Marine?

[Haighus]

I don't really go for the whole 'Chapters with unknown background' scenario. I work on the assumption that 'deep space' is say, beyond the astronomican - or at least in remote areas. But if there is a return from this unspecified direction, into well used imperial space, they would surely come to the attention of the administratum (through planetary governors) and/or the inquisition.

Now if they are a space-bound chapter, a chapter strength naval formation, even one battle barge, coming into imperium occuied space, would be picked up quite quickly. Especially if they are fighting alongside imperial forces.

Only 'occult' type stories make sense - a la the Legion of the Damned - but a physical body of Space Marines at Chapter strength - would probably have their backgrounds disclosed to the imperial authorities. And pre-heresy legion remnants would be subject to massed scrutiny.

I think, anything else would be a 'deus ex machina' if that is the correct terminology...
The Carcharodons where treated with extreme suspicion upon their entry into the Badab war by the Imperial Forces- the Inquisitor in charge was admitted onboard their ships and had several meetings and testing of geneseed and so on with the Carcharodons. However, he kept the information confidential (on the request of the Carcharodons themselves I believe) and merely vouched for their loyalty using his reputation and power as an Inquisitor. The Carcharodons themselves probably do have records of their origins, however their mission is to operate above the galactic plane and they very rarely enter the IoM itself, so in an organisation where information purges are commonplace to prevent dangerous knowledge potentially entering the wrong hands, it is really little surprise that so little is known about them in the wider IoM. Hence the suspicion on arrival.

On another note, I think the 23rd founding stuff has been totally retconned- some of the FW fluff for them dates back right to M32 I think.

[Haighus]

EDIT: How do you delete a duplicate post?

[This Dave]

For a good example of how information you'd think is important could get lost, England lost an entire king until he was found under a parking lot. If a fairly literate society could lose records of someone like Richard III in less than 1500 years it's not a stretch that something as huge and knowledge phobic as the Imperium cod lose whole planets or Marine Chapters.

[Lord-Boofhead]

U make an excellent point I always thought gw and FW hinted at chapters being part of the old legions I thought it was written some where that they even used gene seed of traitor legion for a founding of new chapters.
Minotaurs= iron warriors the whole siege warfare and maze like environment of their ship,
Blood ravens = thousand sons prospero burns, and Dow games and books

Red scorpions = emperors children the whole purity thing, just throwing it out their


It was made pretty clear that the Minotaurs were World Eater Gene Seed never stated as fact but strongly hinted.

Hadn't thought of the Red Scorpions. do they have a listed founding?

As for the Space Sharks I always thought they were Raven Guard successors that wandered to far into deep space and got lost in the Halo Stars and went of the deep end a bit like the Reavers in Firefly....

[Lord-Boofhead]

If they are descendant from a Traitor Legion (which I hope not, that plotline always comes off as too fanfic-y),

Glad I'm not the only one! It seams 'Loyalist Traitors from the Heresy' is the New Special snowflake to replace 'Secretly one of the Lost Legions'.

[Jmaximum]

It's also now explicitly stated in the Space Marine Codex that Guilliman put a timed stasis lock on the 'traitor' Geneseed held on Terra from before the Heresy....

And that lock is now open.

Wasn't that geneseed stolen in Deliverance Lost?

[Maelstorm]

The Imperium might lose the records. But it's pretty far fetched to believe that the Chapters themselves would forget. Maybe the Space Sharks just aren't telling. Maybe they changed their name to avoid the law. ;)

More likely they changed names to avoid their student loans...

[Veteran Sergeant]

And how much did the story change from the original telling in those 1,000 years, as each new person passed it on, adding their own touch or flair?Like I said, nobody forgot that one side was the Greeks and the other side the Trojans.

We're not talking about forgetting minor details. Their genetic legacy and their roots are the entire identity of a Space Marine Chapter.

Sorry, mysterious geneseed and mysterious origins are a cheap narrative device for lazy authors trying to special-snowflakicize their chapter. And Forgeworld is notorious for Special Snowflakes.

[Veteran Sergeant]

More likely they changed names to avoid their student loans...
Now that would make sense, lol.

[Veteran Sergeant]

There's an original 40k story? Is it Ian Watson's Space Marine?
No, in the original background story about the Firehawks.

[phreakachu]

i dont have a problem with the 'remnants of a traitor legion' background... i find it more believable than the ENTIRE legion falling to chaos, or EVERY loyalist being slaughtered.
i think the Carcharodons being remanats of the World Eaters to be niftycool: theres plenty of time for a little mutation in the geneseed to give them the apearance, but the and their tactics and brutality SCREAM 12th legion

[Jmaximum]

"...you have the Blood Ravens at the least who canon don't know anything about their founding(or didn't until Davian Thule dug up the records on Kronus and promptly destroyed them...), "

When/where did this happen? I've played both DoW's, and read the Blood ravens omnibus, but I don't remember that part.