Plunge Taken: Starting WFB High Elves, looking for input

[Kevin48220]

Okay, I finally hit the 'crap or get off the pot' point and said to myself, "This is stupid. Just find a spot to start at, and start."

So, I went to a favorite local game store, and determined on the way that I would be fine with starting with one of the following: High Elves, Dark Elves, or Lizardmen. I love the look and feel of the Dark Elves, from what I've seen in their book; Lizardmen are dinosaurs riding on dinosaurs = awesome; and high elves are just plain cool. I'd also played them from the Island of Blood starter, and had a good time with them.

My plan was to see what army book or books they had used, and if one of them was there, that's where I'd start, period. I really thought about what Learn2Eel said about starting with elves on a different thread (and thanks again for that, L2E), but I really like the look and tone of the elves, so...I decided that if a steeper learning curve comes with that, so be it.

And, what do I find? A copy of the High Elves army book, used, at a very reasonable price. So that and a battalion box went home with me. Several hours and a nice score on Ebay later, I've got a good start on an army. I've got my core troops filled in quite well at this point--lots of spearmen, archers, and some seaguard. I've got pieces to use for my heroes and lords. Those are not issues.

What I'm wondering about is:

--What named characters are 'must haves' or 'must avoids'? (or, is that even the case?)
--Any thoughts on which special and rare units are desirable?

And, most importantly:

--I'm thinking of going with a more earth-toned, almost desert-like look for the paint scheme. I've been wanting to do a scheme with browns and reds for a while, and I'm tempted to go that way with these high elves, like they are from a more desolate or barren part of the elven homeland. I would be concerned about that being too far away from the general tone of the background of the race for it to work (I haven't totally read the army book cover to cover yet, starting that today)--is that workable?

[Wildeybeast]

I can only advise from the point of playing against high elves, but here are my thoughts. You can go with any colours you like really. Just make them the personal colours of some local noble and you are sorted. They tend to go for brighter colours, but there is quite a lot of variety in high elf uniforms.

As for the special characters, I'd recommend checking with your opponents before using them. Although they are a legitimate part of the army, some people can be a bit funny about facing them. If the he ones are like the other 8th ed books, then they should be well balanced so it comes down to personal preference really.

As for special and rare, start with eagles. They are so useful as charge diverters, you really need to take at least one of them in every game. Beyond that, sword masters and white lions are always good choices.

[captjagged]

I saw some really cool autumn color High Elves a while back, with a Korhil done up in browns and reds. It was a really striking departure from the usual blue, made quite an impression. (Sadly, I didn't bookmark it, so I can't point to them, but I'm sure examples are out there.)

The new army book actually gives a lot of different color choices for the various regions, so the next choice would be basing. Some elves on a desert base would be pretty cool, I think, can't wait to see what you come up with!

[Kevin48220]

I was looking at those. There's quite a range in the color choices, so I'll have to look it all over pretty carefully before I decide.

the desert thing would be really swanky, though. I was thinking bone whites, tans and reds, and desert/sand yellows. Bronze and brass, and some silvery metals. Base them with desert-type sand, maybe some bleached-out skulls and stuff.

[War Painter]

Welcome to my favorite system. I hope that color scheme works out and I'd love to see the results if and when you finish some.

[Kevin48220]

Thanks! The lot I picked up has a lot of models already put together and primed. So I figure I'll designate a few as the test models for the paint scheme, and see if I can pull it off. If it doesn't work, I'll go more traditional and tweak it a bit to make it my own.

I really did enjoy the WFB when I played the IOB games, and I know that's just scratching the surface.

[Mr Mystery]

Welcome to the wonderful world of square bashing!

As for test models...they can usually be hidden up the back of a regiment, so nothing need go to waste!

[Kevin48220]

I'm looking forward to...getting bashed until I know my book and the rules pretty well! :p

Test models are always fun, and I do keep them as 'orphan' models. They sometimes get stripped and redone, or they just stay in the painting kit, for various experimental purposes. I like to think of the rest of the army laughing at them for being picked for paint duty: "Ha, ha, ha. You scratched the Warlord's helmet, now you are a paint scheme tester."

I'm also thinking about conversions. The lot I picked up has a ton of spearmen in it, so I'm considering taking the spearmen from the battalion box and converting them into Phoenix Guard or White Lions, if I can get the right bits. I need to look at the models a bit more closely to see if that would work, though.

[Heatray]

The HE in Fantasy are a hard-hitting, tactical force that needs to be played carefully or it will just get smashed like Toughness 3 always does. That being said, it is a very rewarding force that has an answer for everything.
You've got one of the best core units in the game in the form of Spearelves; ranking them 5x30 is usually your best bet and you can get at least 2 of those formations in a 2250pt match. Such a block would give you 16 attacks on the charge or 21 attacks if you get charged. With rerolls to hit 9 times out of 10.

Your specialist troops are where you really make your money though, and each of the big three has a very specific role to fill. Phoenix Guard are a bodyguard for an Archmage, pure and simple. A big unit of PG simply will not die, barring special circumstances (Dreaded 13th being one). Swordmasters are an absolute meatgrinder of a unit, and a small unit of 10-15 will very easily win its points back if you protect it. White Lions are monster killers and they are very good at what they do. The only downside to these special choices is that only PG get rerolls from ASF.

As far as special characters, none of them are really broken. Teclis got toned down HARD from the last book; he's still a good caster, but nowhere near as broken he used to be. Tyrion is a solid combat lord, but he's a little expensive. Alith Anar is a bolt thrower on legs and really good and killing knights and high-toughness models, but again he's a little expensive. The real gem of the characters is Alarielle. She's stupidly good, even for her pricetag, because casting Lore of Life at +8 before dice is ridiculous. Again, she's expensive, but you wont find a better lord-level support caster for a 2250pt game. Toughness 7 PG with a 4+ Regen save, anyone?
In all honesty you can make an excellent character out of any of the vanilla options in the book, though. An now that you can mount an Archmage on a Star Dragon, you really don't need another lord choice.

HE can look good in just about any paint scheme. Each of the realms of Ulthuan has their own colors, but if you want to put a personal touch on your elves then more power to you. Its very easy to make elves look good (they are elves, after all) nowadays, especially with all the inks and special effects paints available.

Have fun and happy hunting!

[Kevin48220]

Heatray, thank you for your comments. That T3 is (IMO) just one of those things that says you just can't have it all. I like the mobility and speed of HE, when I played them, and what looked like a great spread of options from the book. I figure that no matter what I picked, I'd have some challenges; if I took Lizardmen, figure that they're tougher to kill, but they have to be because their initiative is generally low. So it balances, maybe; Toughness is lower, but they have a better than average chance of reducing the number of attacks that are returned to them.

Thanks also for your comments on the specialist troops and special characters. Much appreciated.

[Mr Mystery]

On the subject of S3, T3.....

It's not the downer in Warhammer that it is in 40k. It's the benchmark!

High Elves are noted for the overall effiency of their units. For instance, if I have 20 Empire Spearman, bog standard, I get three ranks of attacks. High Elves? All 20 get to attack thanks to Martial Prowess, and thanks to Speed of Asuryan, most of the time those attacks will be re-rolling to hit! At a mere 9 points a pop they can do serious damage.

[War Painter]

And if you need any advice or help feel free to ask. We are here to help.

[eldargal]

On the subject of S3, T3.....

It's not the downer in Warhammer that it is in 40k. It's the benchmark!

High Elves are noted for the overall effiency of their units. For instance, if I have 20 Empire Spearman, bog standard, I get three ranks of attacks. High Elves? All 20 get to attack thanks to Martial Prowess, and thanks to Speed of Asuryan, most of the time those attacks will be re-rolling to hit! At a mere 9 points a pop they can do serious damage.
One reason I love WFB so much and are playing it so much more than 40k lately, S4 T4 isn't the standard against which all other armies are measured. **** Marines, seriously.

[ACE01]

One reason I love WFB so much and are playing it so much more than 40k lately, S4 T4 isn't the standard against which all other armies are measured. **** Marines, seriously.

Here here!

Oh, and there's actually a really good variety in the armies you play against, speaking for my local area at least. Even against the same opponent, I've found games pan out very differently due to the mix in statlines for your units.

To the OP, I've played a couple of High elf armies and have real trouble with swordmasters with my TK army. The Lizards fare better, but still can't speak highly enough of these in either small-but dangerous, or avoid/kill at all costs sizes!

[Kevin48220]

That's good to know on the S3/T3 situation. Coming in from 40K, I'm absolutely used to looking at S4/T4 as the baseline/average for most units, so I'm glad for the perspective shift.

So, it sounds to me like with the special units for HE being more specialized, I'm likely to need have at least a small coterie of each of them, to cover different contingencies. The Swordmasters are covered in the Ebay lot that's coming in the mail, fortunately, but I'll need to figure out White Lions and Phoenix Guard.

Thanks again to all for the comments and advice. I'm looking forward to getting them ready for the tabletop.

Based on eldargal and ACE01's comments, I wonder about the general practice in making lists. In 40K, there's a 'more likely than not' chance I'll have my Necrons up against one form of Space Marines; that's not a bash on 40K, which I love, just saying that's the nature of the system. I tend to have that in mind when I'm making a list, how to cope with the S4/T4/3+ I'm likely to be looking at.

Should I look more at making 'all comers' type army lists for WFB? Those are generally what I prefer to make, so I can focus on the synergy and functioning of my own army, instead of thinking too much about what might be on the other side of the table.

[eldargal]

It's quite hard to say, it really depends on your meta. I mean there is certainly going to have much more variety than 40k but you could end up with a group with a lot of dwarf, orc and OK players with a higher Toughness ratio. Or an elf heavy group or a mix or... Generally an all-comers list would be a safe bet until you start to get a feel for the local playing conditions.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

Plus in Warhammer, any weakness can be offset with cunning manoeuvres, more so than 40k.

One of the reasons I love Warhammer!

[ACE01]

It's quite hard to say, it really depends on your meta. I mean there is certainly going to have much more variety than 40k but you could end up with a group with a lot of dwarf, orc and OK players with a higher Toughness ratio. Or an elf heavy group or a mix or... Generally an all-comers list would be a safe bet until you start to get a feel for the local playing conditions.

^^ This is good advice, take heed!

Most armies will have a wildcard, something that certain other's struggle to deal with, so despite your best planning when tailoring, in a Rock Paper Scissors game, there's always the chance you'll come up against your dynamite! Best to take a well rounded list that works to the style you like to play, and one your army can do relatively well. When choosing your special/rares, why not proxy your Swordmasters as PG or lions to have a try with them? Will help you decide what works best for you.

[Chronowraith]

As Eldargal says, look at what armies are common in your local area. If you travel a lot or are looking for more of the national meta.. the common armies are usually Warriors of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos, Skaven, Wood/Dark Elves, and Orcs and Goblins. You WILL see a decent smattering of pretty much every other army book out there including some of the perceived "weaker" books such as Beasts, Wood Elves, and Bretonnians.

I do have to disagree with the sentiment that Elves are hard to start with. They are far easier to start with then many armies and are pretty forgiving because, with few exceptions, they perform very well in combat against most opponents. Once you learn how to manage an army of smaller units versus opponents larger armies, they are pretty simple to run and it comes down to personal playstyle since they are pretty flexible.

Overall, welcome to WFB :-) Keep your hands in the cart, scream loudly at your opponent, giggle when people scoff at the "complex rules", and otherwise enjoy the ride. Its a great game and an even better community.

[War Painter]

I have some beastmen that are waiting for a new book myself. Maybe I'll try to grab some stuff I think won't get replaced.

[Kevin48220]

I'm pretty sure that the learning curve is about the same level of difficulty with all armies, but it manifests differently in each. So it's a "6 of one, half dozen the other" sort of thing.

My local meta--well, that I've seen, anyway--is about what you all have said. I've seen Daemons, Orcs, Ogres; we have at least 1 Empire player, and I think there's a guy who plays Vampire Counts, and we have two who play Skaven. So we have a smattering of everything, it looks like; I don't think there's any army that a majority of people play. I'm likely to go with all comers-type lists at first, just to see what all the units can do and play with the synergy.

I'm looking pretty hard at the Lores and my spellcaster units. HE have some pretty freaking awesome magic, and I want to exploit that to the best possible use. I can't see myself having a list that doesn't have at least 2 spellcasters of some kind.

ACE01, thanks for reminding me that I can proxy models. I'm one of those guys who just loves to have a model for every unit, and I should moderate that some maybe. No need to pick up models if I don't like how the unit plays.

[ACE01]

No problem, I'm like you in that I like to have some of everything available as variety, unless I particularly don't like the models.

[Galushi]

It all depends on who you're playing as to running proxy models/units. I only play against a couple friends and we're all pretty cool with doing proxies. Heck, a played a few games with my Warriors of chaos list proxxing a Hellcannon with a piece of hard plastic foam cut to the proper base size.

For some of my dwarf elite dwarf units (Hammerers, Ironbreakers) which come in packs of 5 pewter models, ugh, I just have 2 ranks of the pewter and fill in back models with Warriors that i kitted with the appropriate weapon since they're about 1/3 of the price compared to the pewter.

Usually as long as you can keep straight what is what, and you communicate to your opponent what you're doing, it's not a problem.

Welcome to Fantasy =)

[Kevin48220]

Thanks! I've been digging through the rules and my army book for the last few days, getting seriously amped...

...to PAINT.

Which is, for me, the hardest part. Not doing it, but deciding on a color scheme.

by any chance, is there an online painter? Where I can try out different HE color schemes? I know I've seen them for some of the 40K armies, wasn't sure if such a thing was around for WFB armies.