wound allocation question

[mocapman]

Hey all,

I'm new hear and have been out of 40k for several years so go easy. My friends and I are trying to clear up wound allocation.

Say my 10 guardians and shuriken cannon platform are firing at a squad of marines. All guardians are within range of 3 members of the marine squad. They manage to score 5 wounds. The cannon scores 2 wounds. There are 7 wounds in the pool and for now let's assume no 6's were rolled for bladestorm. Can the wounds be allocated to marines outside the guardians range because the Max range in the squad is 36" not the 12" of the regular catapults.

If this is the case is it because the maximum range of the squad is 36" at the to hit stage (ie, the shuriken cannon doesn't have to wound for the guardians to allocate wounds to those that were out of range)

Thanks for helping clear this up and sorry if it has been asked before (I did a search and what I found wasn't specific enough to set me straight)

[Vangrail]

Te catapults can only kill up to 12 inchs.

[mocapman]

The latest FAQ states that models out of range of all models firing at it cannot be wounded. This suggests that as the wound pool contains wounds from weapons divided into groups by str, ap and special rules but not range that all wounds are applies from the pool up to the Max range of the squad. Am I reading this wrong?

[mathhammer]

Can the wounds be allocated to marines outside the guardians range because the Max range in the squad is 36" not the 12" of the regular catapults.


Yes, All wounds can be allocated to the max range of the any weapon in the squad.

The best example is 5 marines firing bolters. If they all rapid fire (2 shots) they can only kill 12 inches away. But if one marine single shots for a 24" range then the wounds can travel that far out.

secondary point to make, wounds don't have a range associated with them, there is just a wound pool, So once the wounds are in that pool there is no way to tell where they came from.

[Nabterayl]

Yes, All wounds can be allocated to the max range of the any weapon in the squad.

The best example is 5 marines firing bolters. If they all rapid fire (2 shots) they can only kill 12 inches away. But if one marine single shots for a 24" range then the wounds can travel that far out.

secondary point to make, wounds don't have a range associated with them, there is just a wound pool, So once the wounds are in that pool there is no way to tell where they came from.
Agreed.

[mocapman]

I just wanted to make sure that was the case as it seems odd at first but started to make sense for speed of play, and the ebb and flow of battle.

I take it its the same for template weapons (say a flamers in a squad with longer ranged weapons)

[Charistoph]

Te catapults can only kill up to 12 inchs.
This would only be true if only the Catapults were shooting.


Yes, All wounds can be allocated to the max range of the any weapon in the squad.

The best example is 5 marines firing bolters. If they all rapid fire (2 shots) they can only kill 12 inches away. But if one marine single shots for a 24" range then the wounds can travel that far out.

secondary point to make, wounds don't have a range associated with them, there is just a wound pool, So once the wounds are in that pool there is no way to tell where they came from.

This is how the FAQ has it. I would like to point out that once a model is able to shoot at a target, it is never out of range for the duration of the firing, according to the BRB.

Gotta love the inconsistency of GW FAQs.

[Blood Shadow]

Surely this depends on several things for example the strength and AP of the weapons firing, if they're different then they create a second hit/wound pool which the controlling player must pick which to use up first right?

In which case if the wound pool for 12" is exhausted first then the 36" pool can be used, if used the other way round (say the closest member is a special weapon model or power fist that has to die) then the 36" wounds are used up first and then the second for the 12" with no wounds going beyond 12".

[mathhammer]

Surely this depends on several things for example the strength and AP of the weapons firing, if they're different then they create a second hit/wound pool which the controlling player must pick which to use up first right?

In which case if the wound pool for 12" is exhausted first then the 36" pool can be used, if used the other way round (say the closest member is a special weapon model or power fist that has to die) then the 36" wounds are used up first and then the second for the 12" with no wounds going beyond 12".

nope.

This is why I used the bolters as examples so people wouldn't confuse the strength and AP of the weapon with a range. There is no range in the wound pool and the strength and AP can't be used to create one. Another example is a unit with a inferno pistol,meltagun and multimelta. (plasma pistol, plasma gun, plasma cannon)

[Quaade]

@ mathhammer

You are both right and wrong at the same time, you're right in that casualties can be removed up to the maximum distance of the furthest shooting weapon, creating magic bullets.

You are wrong when you say that rapidfire weapons can't kill beyond their rapid fire range when they shoot. Casualty removal is based on the maximum range when you fire, meaning that rapid fire can remove targets well beyond their half distance even if only one model is within rapid fire range.

[Quaade]

Surely this depends on several things for example the strength and AP of the weapons firing, if they're different then they create a second hit/wound pool which the controlling player must pick which to use up first right?

In which case if the wound pool for 12" is exhausted first then the 36" pool can be used, if used the other way round (say the closest member is a special weapon model or power fist that has to die) then the 36" wounds are used up first and then the second for the 12" with no wounds going beyond 12".

Not as pr latest FAQ, bullets in 40K be magic and bouncing like mad.

[Blood Shadow]

Wow OK so yet another example of me playing wrong....

[Patrick Boyle]

Yes, All wounds can be allocated to the max range of the any weapon in the squad.

The best example is 5 marines firing bolters. If they all rapid fire (2 shots) they can only kill 12 inches away. But if one marine single shots for a 24" range then the wounds can travel that far out.

secondary point to make, wounds don't have a range associated with them, there is just a wound pool, So once the wounds are in that pool there is no way to tell where they came from.

Without the book in front of me I can't be sure, but in the case of a Bolter isn't the range always 24"? Rapid Fire just states that if you're half or less of your range away you can fire twice. So in your first example if all 5 fire two shots, they can all still kill up to 24" away, no? Otherwise rapidfire would be an incredible handicap in some cases, i.e. if everyone is just within 12" of the enemy unit, you're saying I can only wound the couple of models I'm just within 12" of if everyone makes use of Rapid Fire.

[mocapman]

Thanks for all the replies. It has helped get this rule straight in my head. I think its almost simplifying the process of shooting so much that it seems difficult to be sure you're right.

[mathhammer]

Without the book in front of me I can't be sure, but in the case of a Bolter isn't the range always 24"? Rapid Fire just states that if you're half or less of your range away you can fire twice. So in your first example if all 5 fire two shots, they can all still kill up to 24" away, no? Otherwise rapidfire would be an incredible handicap in some cases, i.e. if everyone is just within 12" of the enemy unit, you're saying I can only wound the couple of models I'm just within 12" of if everyone makes use of Rapid Fire.

yes i'm saying that, rapid fire says shoot at half range which cuts your range to "half the weapon's maximum range".
In 99% of the cases it cost you one shot to have bob at the back of the unit to shoot full range.

Rereading page 52, You could argue that if withing rapid fire range you must fire 2 shots, mehh

[Nabterayl]

yes i'm saying that, rapid fire says shoot at half range which cuts your range to "half the weapon's maximum range".
In 99% of the cases it cost you one shot to have bob at the back of the unit to shoot full range.
I disagree with this. Page 52 says:

A model armed with a Rapid Fire weapon can fire two shots at a target up to half the weapon's maximum range away. Alternatively, it can instead fire one shot at a target over half the weapon's range away, up to the weapon's maximum range.

If a unit shooting Rapid Fire weapons is found to be partially within half range of the target, the firing models within half range fire two shots, while those further away fire one.
I think the second paragraph pretty clearly requires you to fire twice if you can, and otherwise fire once.

I (also?) disagree that "up to half the weapon's maximum range" is the same thing as saying, "for purposes of this shot, the weapon's Range is rewritten." The phrase itself kind of precludes that - if a Rapid Fire weapon firing two shots changed the weapon's range, then it would be circular to say "half the weapon's maximum range." The second paragraph also seems to assume that, no matter how many shots the weapon is firing, it still has one range.

[DarkLink]

Everyone gets to shoot out to 24", and the models in 12" get an extra shot. It's as simple as that.

[This Dave]

Everyone gets to shoot out to 24", and the models in 12" get an extra shot. It's as simple as that.

Unless you're Tau firing Pulse Rifles. Or Sternguard firing Kraken rounds.

[Patrick Boyle]

Unless you're Tau firing Pulse Rifles. Or Sternguard firing Kraken rounds.

Which is just to say "Everyone can reach out to the listed range, everyone at half that or less gets 2 shots". Poor Stormtroopers with their 18" Rapid Fire hotshot lasguns...

[mocapman]

So I just wanted to be clear. Is this the same for tear drop template weapons like flamers. If the flame weapons in a squad can only hit 3 models but cause say 6 wounds and the maximum range of the squad is 24 inches all wounds go into the pool as normal and get applied to the Max range of the squad?

[mocapman]

Actually having just read through the rules and some other forum posts is it that template weapons have range "template" and it isn't given in inches for this reason. So even if a unit with just flamers could only hit 5 guys but caused 20 wounds the wounds would be applied to the whole unit as they were in range when the unit fired and there is no maximum range for the flamer. That right?

[mathhammer]

Everyone gets to shoot out to 24", and the models in 12" get an extra shot. It's as simple as that.

I reread the rules a few times last night, and I agree now. Guess I still had the rapid fire/move mentality from the last version.

[mathhammer]

template weapons have range "template" and it isn't given in inches for this reason. So even if a unit with just flamers could only hit 5 guys but caused 20 wounds the wounds would be applied to the whole unit as they were in range when the unit fired and there is no maximum range for the flamer.

I have seen arguments back and forth on this. This is usually a theory fight since almost all template based units (multiple templates) have someone in that unit shooting a 12" gun, which expands the killing range. The units I can think of off the top of my brain.
Burna boys
Pyrovores (really imaginary problem here)

Must be an all template shooting unit and then there must be multiple templates, the general feeling is the template itself defines the range (roughly 7 inches). I personally feel stronger towards this view of template handling.
note: templates get slightly different rules in ruins.

[DarkLink]

The template defines the range, but if there are any other weapons that have a longer range, you use that. A single, say, bolter is the difference between clipping one or two guys with a flamer, and being able to inflict wounds on the entire unit. Same thing with all shooting. In order to fire, the weapon has to be in range itself, but as long as it is in range, you can kill any model that is in range of any weapon in the firing unit.


I reread the rules a few times last night, and I agree now. Guess I still had the rapid fire/move mentality from the last version.

That's actually how they worked last edition, too. The only difference was that if you moved, you didn't get the full range shot, but you could still sit still and have some guys shoot twice and some shoot once.

People get confused by saying stuff like "I'm going to rapid fire you", I think. Makes it sound like you have to actively make a choice to halve your range but double your shots, when in actuality that's something that just happens. You'e always rapid firing, even when you're shooting once at full range.

[mocapman]

Thanks DarkLink. That has cleared it up. Good explanation for the rapid firing too!

[Charistoph]

Actually, the FAQ does not reference the range of the weapons at all, just the attack, and a Rapid Fire's 'Double Tap' Attack cannot be used outside half the weapon's range.

[Anggul]

As an aside, Shuriken Cannons have 24" range, not 36".

[mocapman]

As an aside, Shuriken Cannons have 24" range, not 36".

Yeah, my bad there :)

[Patrick Boyle]

Actually, the FAQ does not reference the range of the weapons at all, just the attack, and a Rapid Fire's 'Double Tap' Attack cannot be used outside half the weapon's range.

Go back an reread the rule book section on Rapid Fire. There's no such thing as a 'Double Tap attack', the weapon type rapid fire merely fires a second shot at half its listed range.

[DarkLink]

That's exactly the confusion that I mentioned in my last post. There is, and I don't think there ever has been (at least, not since at least 2nd or 3rd ed anyways) any "double tap" or "rapid fire" mode. A rapid fire weapon has one mode. That one mode, which you're always in, always gives you 2 shots at half range, and one shot at full range. The closest there has ever been to a 'rapid fire mode' is that you could only shoot to 12" when you moved last edition, so you would never get the one shot range if you moved. But you have never had to decide whether or not you're going to 'rapid fire'. You're always rapid firing. The only question was whether or not you moved, previously, but now even that doesn't matter.

[TimmyPowerGamer]

In the BRB, it says that the wound pool is divided depending on the Str, AP and any special rules. Don't flamers get the ignore cover special rule, meaning that they would go into their own pool? And if they are in their own pool with no other wounds to extend their range, would that make any difference to what range casualties would be removed?

[-Tom-]

In the BRB, it says that the wound pool is divided depending on the Str, AP and any special rules. Don't flamers get the ignore cover special rule, meaning that they would go into their own pool? And if they are in their own pool with no other wounds to extend their range, would that make any difference to what range casualties would be removed?

I had thought this was the case, and then as per the Opening Post question, the Shuriken Cannon platform has the different strength to the Shuriken Catapults so 2 would pools would be created.

You'd want to resolve the wounds from the shuriken catapults against the closest, in-range, enemy models. So, 5 wounds going onto those 3 marines first off. Let's face it, you're probably not wasting wounds that way anyway because without rolling a load of 6's, you're not necessarily going to kill 3 marines from 5 shuriken cat wounds anyway.

Beyond that, resolve the wounds from the Shuriken Cannon. Which, may well still be applying to some, or all, of the same 3 marines anyway.

[Charistoph]

Go back an reread the rule book section on Rapid Fire. There's no such thing as a 'Double Tap attack', the weapon type rapid fire merely fires a second shot at half its listed range.

Not quite. It lists the two shot attack first at half weapon range and the one shot attack from half to full. The word 'second' is never actually used in that paragraph when applied to shots. So Rapid Fire has two attack modes/profiles depending one what the range to the target is at the time shooting is declared.


I had thought this was the case, and then as per the Opening Post question, the Shuriken Cannon platform has the different strength to the Shuriken Catapults so 2 would pools would be created.

Incorrect. All shooting from a unit creates a single Wound Pool (special rules like Networked Markerlights an exception), but they are divided in to groups within that Pool based on Str, AP, and other special rules like Rending, Precision Shot, etc, that can mess around with Wound Allocation.

[DarkLink]

In the BRB, it says that the wound pool is divided depending on the Str, AP and any special rules. Don't flamers get the ignore cover special rule, meaning that they would go into their own pool? And if they are in their own pool with no other wounds to extend their range, would that make any difference to what range casualties would be removed?

Doesn't matter. A lascannon can extend the range of bolters. They're still part of the same overall wound pool, or whatever random terminology gw uses.

[mocapman]

2 would pools would be created.

There is only ever one wound pool. There are groups within the wound pool to distinguish STR, AP and special rules. Nowhere in the BRB does it say wounds go into separate groups for range. Therefore all wounds can be applied up to the maximum range of the squad. Furthermore you can decided to use any of the groups in turn to apply wounds to the targeted unit even if the group of wounds are from weapons that would be out of range normally. You just have to use all wounds from that group before moving onto the next group. You can't change back and forth between wounds in different groups.

[Nabterayl]

Yeah, I think this is a fairly sensible rule. If we had to track the range of shots, we'd have to track each individual shooter's hits and misses. If you had ten guys with lasguns firing, you'd have to ask whether each individual guy hit or missed with his shot(s), so you could track whether the closest enemy model was in range of the guy the shot actually came from. I willingly accept some abstraction in exchange for not having to do that.

[Power Klawz]

Yeah the only time you check range is when determining which models can fire (and in the case of rapid fire weapons, how many shots they can fire.)

After you've determined who can shoot how many times you just roll all the dice and allocate wounds appropriately. If it ends up that your rapid firing bolter shots are killing dudes 14 inches away from any of your guys that could have made that shot then that's just how it goes.

[Charistoph]

Yeah the only time you check range is when determining which models can fire (and in the case of rapid fire weapons, how many shots they can fire.)

Not according to the FAQ (never mind that it completely ignores the Out of Range rule on page 16 and it was not Errata'd out).

[Nabterayl]

Charistoph's right about that - you check range to see who can shoot, maybe to see how many shots those who can shoot fire (in the case of rapid fire weapons, for instance), and every time you allocate a wound. However, the only check the Out of Range rule or the FAQ requires at the wound allocation step is whether the possibly wounded model is in range of any of the firing weapons. You don't ask whether the possibly wounded model is in range of the specific model that the wound in question actually came from.

[Charistoph]

Charistoph's right about that - you check range to see who can shoot, maybe to see how many shots those who can shoot fire (in the case of rapid fire weapons, for instance), and every time you allocate a wound. However, the only check the Out of Range rule or the FAQ requires at the wound allocation step is whether the possibly wounded model is in range of any of the firing weapons. You don't ask whether the possibly wounded model is in range of the specific model that the wound in question actually came from.

Actually Out of Range doesn't specify model, it just says "enemy". This could be unit or model, it doesn't specify, so could be taken either way.

[Nabterayl]

I don't think it can. Out of Range says:

As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the Shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range.
If this means the specific enemy model from whose shots a given wound was generated, then the statement is nonsensical. It is impossible for Ork Boy G to be in range of Space Marine #10 when To Hit rolls are made, and then for the removal of casualties to mean that Ork Boy G (who has become the closest model) to now be out of range of Space Marine #10. Two models will always be in range of one another or not - the removal of casualties cannot affect that.

It is possible, however, for Ork Boy G to be in range of Space Marines #1-9, yet out of range of Space Marine #10, and it is possible for the removal of casualties to mean that Ork Boy G is now the closest model to the space marines, and for only Space Marine #10's wounds to remain in the pool (not that we are normally asked to track that). This is the only way the presence of "removal of casualties" in the Out of Range rule actually does anything.

To put it another way, what the rules actually ask us to do is determine, when To Hit rolls are made, which enemy models in the target unit are out of range of everybody in the firing unit. We set those Out of Range models aside, as it were - they are invulnerable. Everybody else is still up for being killed (unless of course they are also Out of Sight).

[Charistoph]

To put it another way, what the rules actually ask us to do is determine, when To Hit rolls are made, which enemy models in the target unit are out of range of everybody in the firing unit. We set those Out of Range models aside, as it were - they are invulnerable. Everybody else is still up for being killed (unless of course they are also Out of Sight).

Which would match the FAQ and if we treat Out of Range's 'enemy' as model and not unit. If it is unit, then target models can never be out of range after shots are fired, making the FAQ a cow's opinion.

[Nabterayl]

Perhaps I am not understanding what you mean by "model." It sounds like you're advocating this:

Grey Knights #1 and 2 (both armed with storm bolters) are firing on Orks A and B.
Grey Knight #1 is 22" away from Ork A and 24" away from Ork B.
Grey Knight #2 is 23" away from Ork A and 25" away from Ork B.
GK1 and GK2, collectively, fire four shots.
We roll to hit. We need to keep track of GK1's two shots (which can kill both A and B) and GK2's two shots (which can kill A but not B) separately.
After rolling to hit, we roll to wound. Again, we need to keep track of GK1's hits, if any, separately from GK2's hits, if any.
After rolling to wound, we begin applying wounds from the wound pool. Assuming A dies before the wound pool is exhausted, we then need to ask whether the remaining wound came from GK1 (in which case it can be allocated to B) or whether it came from GK2 (in which case it can't be allocated to B, and is wasted).
Is that your understanding of the rules?

[Charistoph]

Perhaps I am not understanding what you mean by "model." It sounds like you're advocating this:

Grey Knights #1 and 2 (both armed with storm bolters) are firing on Orks A and B.
Grey Knight #1 is 22" away from Ork A and 24" away from Ork B.
Grey Knight #2 is 23" away from Ork A and 25" away from Ork B.
GK1 and GK2, collectively, fire four shots.
We roll to hit. We need to keep track of GK1's two shots (which can kill both A and B) and GK2's two shots (which can kill A but not B) separately.
After rolling to hit, we roll to wound. Again, we need to keep track of GK1's hits, if any, separately from GK2's hits, if any.
After rolling to wound, we begin applying wounds from the wound pool. Assuming A dies before the wound pool is exhausted, we then need to ask whether the remaining wound came from GK1 (in which case it can be allocated to B) or whether it came from GK2 (in which case it can't be allocated to B, and is wasted).
Is that your understanding of the rules?

Um, not even close.

By 'model', I mean 'enemy model', and for Out of Range, it would mean that if the 'model' was in range at the beginning of the Shooting Attack, it's always in range of the Shooting Attack.

Now, if the 'enemy' in Out of Range is 'enemy unit', that means that even if model removal makes the nearest model in the target unit out of range of the attack, those Wounds would still keep marching on.

So to use your example, if there was an Ork C at 25" to 1 and 26" to 2, than by FAQ, C is safe, but of OoR means enemy unit and not model, than C is nailed as well. But in either case, the Wounds are NEVER grouped by range and the only time it matters who shot it is for purposes of Precision Shots.

[Nabterayl]

Well then, it sounds like we actually agree, probably.

So to use your example, if there was an Ork C at 25" to 1 and 26" to 2, than by FAQ, C is safe, but of OoR means enemy unit and not model, than C is nailed as well.
Both GK1 and GK2 have guns with 24" range. In this example, Ork C is safe either way. There is no possible way to read Out of Range as referring to target units. As it says in the very first clause, "As long as a model is out of range ..." The "enemy" in Out of Range clearly refers to the firing side, not the target side.

[DarkLink]

I think the easiest way to explain it is that, at the time you begin to shoot, any weapon in range of at least one enemy model may fire, and any enemy within range of at least one firing weapon may be killed.

[Nabterayl]

I think the easiest way to explain it is that, at the time you begin to shoot, any weapon in range of at least one enemy model may fire, and any enemy within range of at least one firing weapon may be killed.
I agree.

The FAQ, I think, comes from the fact that most of the shooting rules are written from the shooter's perspective, and Out of Range is written from the target's perspective. I suppose that might have confused some people.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, it's not that well worded. The meaning from the FAQ is covered by the 'at the time you begin to shoot' in my previous statement. The weapons that can fire, and the models that can be killed, are both determined when you declare shooting, not after you've already started. You can't shoot yourself out of range, as it were.

You could also say that all weapons are fired simultaneously, so even if you roll your meltagun after your bolters, and your bolters shot your meltagun out of range, it's simultaneous so the meltagun is still in range.