Command squad idea

[Duke]

So I was just messing around with the SM codex and made this little unit.

Command Squad: 430 pts
- Bikes (all)
- Company Standard
- Thunder Hammer
- Storm Shield

Granted they are expensive as all hell, but pretty tough. 3+, 3++, Feel no pain, T 5.

Feel free to discuss: OR if you have seen a better HQ unit let me know... This conversation is for purely speculation and fun, so have at it.

Duke

[MVBrandt]

Probably don't need Thunder Hammers on all. As cool as they are, 3+ and FNP is equivalent to Terminator save statistically. Everyone and their mother has seen how quickly terminators go down to massed small arms fire; it's acceptable as a risk b/c they are only 200 points for 5 of them, and you can deliver them via land raider. Bikes are durable enough, but will fall apart to small arms. Also, against heavier weapons like lascannons off vendettas and the like, they are only as tough as a single 3+ roll, which frankly I don't find tough at all given the average cost per wound is around 90 points.

There are a lot of folks who like to run FNP bike squads, but it isn't the kind of durable you see in things like nob bikers and the like, FNP be darned.

[Duke]

I suppose you could change out the Thunder Hammers for Power weapons to lower the cost.

A termie squad in a Land Raider comes in at 450-ish. So this squad would be a little cheaper, but it would also be more vulnerable to dev squads and the like, as you say.

Any other good HQ aquads?

What about a 10 man sternguard with Tigurius? 2x hvy flamer, 8x combi melta, Thunder Hammer for sgt.


Duke

[Chumbalaya]

Lightning claw and storm shield on 3, TH/SS on the Company Champion (yay WS5) and Relic Blade/SS on the Captain.

All it's missing is meltaguns or plasma guns.

[MVBrandt]

The LR/Termie combo is 2 units for 450. The command squad is 1 unit for 430.

I think the command squad is a rock paper scissors choice, regardless of how you equip it. Some opponents won't have the right combination of either volume S8+ or volume small arms to deal with it before it plows through a unit or two and earns its keep. Other opponents will dominate it with ease. You won't really know what you're up against in an all comers gaming group (where tweaking is a nono) or a tourney, so I don't often recommend it.

HQ *squads* are a hard choice ... one that I actually liked and saw in action in a vulkan list was putting vulkan with a vanguard assault squad in a rhino w/ a thunder hammer. The pricing was actually pretty solid, and you basically turned the rhino into a heavy flamer razorback (twin-linked heavy flamer from vulkan out of the hatch). There were other similar variations.

AS with any marine suggestion i personally give, think small miss small. The larger and more expensive your marine squad, the worse the choice is with all things considered. Perfect example is Tigurius + 10 sternguard w/ 2 heavy flamers, a thunder hammer and 8 combi melta. That's a massive investment of points that dies completely to ... say ... a battlecannon shot.

[Duke]

That is the hard thing about theory hammer, there are too many "If you run into this," type of things. For example, what if my Land raider gets opened by a lascannon from a razorback and the plasma sternguard inside rapid fire the termies and wipe out 450 points in one turn....

I kind of like the Tigurius and sternguard unit, he can transport them around, give them a 5++ and shoot a st10 ap1 blast shot to take out that silly battle cannon, lol.

@chumby:

I like that Vulkan squad in the Rhino. I currently run a regular assault squad with 2 flamers, if I brought Vulkan then those dual flamers firing out of the Rhino would be really deadly!

[MVBrandt]

I don't particularly care for open field theoryhammer. I think that's my point. Command squads on bikes only have Terminator saves vs. small arms, and only have marine saves (3+ invul or bike cover) against S8+ weaponry. Therefore, theoryhammer aside, they're vulnerable as hell for their points cost vs. all the weaponry in the game.

As for the stern/tigurius ... it's cool (just like the biker command), but it's only "good" in theoryhammer where you magically appear somewhere on the field that the opponent has left a target out in the open with no support nearby, and they're allowed to kill it without retort.

K.I.S.S.

The Vulkan squad in the rhino is cute.

It's actually a way to make Vanguard useful, too ... look at this:

5 Vanguard Vets in a Rhino w/ 4 attacks each on charge and a power sword is only 150 points, which actually isn't that expensive if you think about it. Compare to 5 tactical marines in a rhino w/ a power sword at 140 points. For 10 points you lose scoring but gain 2 attacks per marine, not too shabby. Throw Vulkan in with such a squad and not only does it hit quite hard on the charge, but it's as mentioned a de facto twin-linked heavy flamer razorback (+30 point value to the rhino cost). Want that tac squad to be as much? It's 170 points at that point :)

[Mobious]

If you tweak it just right, the Command Squad works. You can't really compare them to Thunder Shield Terminators because they have T 5 and are a much bigger threat. Dishing out a couple Melta shots, and some TL bolter shots never hurts. Plus an 18" assault without a Land Raider is also nice. Saying that they are not as tough as Nob Bikers is silly, because they are just *** tough in most cases.

Against Lascannons and S8 shots they have a 3+ versus Nobs with a 4+. Against small arms fire they have 3+/FNP which is better than 4+/FNP. Nobz have 2 wounds but they are also vulnerable to Heavy Flamers and Redeemers. No cover and no armor. Inly a 5+/4+. In the end they are tougher in certain situations, but most people shoot their big guns or send their big boys against Nobs and Command Squads.

Against Lascannons/Meltas/Vindicators and the like, the SMs are stronger. And they don't fail horribly to Dreadnoughts, where Nobs do because, 5+ does not last and having those spare Meltas on the Command Squads helps out. Command squads also beat out TH/SS and Nobs do not.

As far as Tiguirius goes, that maxed out squad is worth only 15 points less than the Command Squad. And the Command Squad is tougher in every respect, does more damage, and does not fail to Psychic hoods/Runes of Warding/Rune Priests or anything else that can shut down Tiguirius. Once that happens, you are just an overly expensive foot tact squad with some big toys. No need for Tiguirius, just get a normal Lib and drop the flamers--you have the Special ammo for that.

[MVBrandt]

If you tweak it just right, the Command Squad works. You can't really compare them to Thunder Shield Terminators because they have T 5 and are a much bigger threat. Dishing out a couple Melta shots, and some TL bolter shots never hurts. Plus an 18" assault without a Land Raider is also nice. Saying that they are not as tough as Nob Bikers is silly, because they are just *** tough in most cases.

Against Lascannons and S8 shots they have a 3+ versus Nobs with a 4+. Against small arms fire they have 3+/FNP which is better than 4+/FNP. Nobz have 2 wounds but they are also vulnerable to Heavy Flamers and Redeemers. No cover and no armor. Inly a 5+/4+. In the end they are tougher in certain situations, but most people shoot their big guns or send their big boys against Nobs and Command Squads.

Against Lascannons/Meltas/Vindicators and the like, the SMs are stronger. And they don't fail horribly to Dreadnoughts, where Nobs do because, 5+ does not last and having those spare Meltas on the Command Squads helps out. Command squads also beat out TH/SS and Nobs do not.

As far as Tiguirius goes, that maxed out squad is worth only 15 points less than the Command Squad. And the Command Squad is tougher in every respect, does more damage, and does not fail to Psychic hoods/Runes of Warding/Rune Priests or anything else that can shut down Tiguirius. Once that happens, you are just an overly expensive foot tact squad with some big toys. No need for Tiguirius, just get a normal Lib and drop the flamers--you have the Special ammo for that.

All excellent comments. For my own part, I don't believe Nob Bikers are good units *AT ALL* ... not being tough enough for their points to endure the improving metagame of even the lowly internet. With Command Squads being relatively less durable in a lot of situations, it's another one of those big expensive units that rarely earns its value back against competent opponents.

[Duke]

I think that is the problem with most expensive units... They are too hard to gain the points back. Sure you can talk about how many things you can do with it, but generally speaking they don't earn the points.

I like the idea of both the Tigu. unit and the command squad, but generally use more basic units than that. I want to try that vanguard squad.... not a bad idea.

Duke

[Rapture]

I have a command squad. They aren't built yet but I have spent quite a bit of time researching their usefulness. Mine will be walking, so I am thinking of decking the squad out with four plasma guns and a razorback.

A lot of people do close combat squads but I am not a fan. It seems like a lot is needed to make them capable. Much better to go with four special weapons in my opinion.

[therealjohnny5]

Tiggy could also work well with Drop Pods with locator beacons if you have sternguard with him...for another mix on the Vanguard, use Pedro instead. +1A makes for 5 ea on the charge. not too shabby... roughly 30 attacks from a 5 man squad, no armor saves...