Apart from the Macro-Cannon...

[YorkNecromancer]

Stronghold Assault seems really, really good. There's nothing in there that seems overpowered or broken, and it seems to me you could quite easily create a whole new army/playstyle with the fortifications in there.

So why is everyone losing their minds over it? Like, the Macro Cannon really seems to be the only slightly broken thing, and even that is more a matter of the insane blast template size rather than the D strength (which against infantry is largely equivelant to str 10 anyway).

Surely all these precious tournament organisers need to do is just say 'No D weapons' like they're going to anyway, and suddenly this book is solid gold awesome?

Am I missing something here?

[daboarder]

1) nobody is "losing their minds" over stronghold, apart from the D-weapons, which as you point out can be banned by itself.

2) tournaments however are trying to find out how to implement it while preventing the user gaining unfair advantages. Remember most tournaments run with pre-set terrain, fitting in an entire defensive line can be very tricky in those circumstance.

there are a number of ways to solve both these issues but mostly the presence of D-weapons means that tournies are finding it easier to put a moratorium on the whole book.

[DarkLink]

Str D is much, much, much, much better than Str 10 against infantry. It ignores all saves, and inflicts multiple wounds to even Eternal Warrior/high T models. That might not matter much against Orks or Guardsmen (though if the Str 10 doesn't ignore cover, then it's still significantly better), but against basically anything from a Marine on up, it's far better in every way.

[chicop76]

This kills mc list. Who wants their 600 point unit vaporized with one hit.

[Bigred]

The Aquila is nice, but it's more shock value. It can reliably dropped by about half its point value.

But's it's SUCH a hard counter to certain deathstars that it's getting a bad rap.

Meltas in a pod (or the equivalent) kill it fairly easily. And when it dies, the owner's army is left somewhat high and dry.

But if you have a handful of maxed out Deamon Princes, or a 800pr Jetseer council - then yeah - its gonna be a bad day.

I love Stronghold Assault - most fun I've had in a while learning the ins and outs of various defensive combos. It's like I have all new armies.

[daboarder]

realistically d-weapons do an inordinate amount of damage to anything that pays points for resilence, be it 4+ or better armour, invuls, high T, multiple wounds, or even stealth and shrouded.

[chicop76]

This kills mc list. Who wants their 600 point unit vaporized with one hit.

[YorkNecromancer]

No-one has yet said why the other stuff in the book is bad; like the title of this thread says 'APART FROM the Macro Cannon...'

I'm not disputing a ban on D weapons - I'm asking why throw the baby out with the bath water? Because when I read the book, I thought



I love Stronghold Assault - most fun I've had in a while learning the ins and outs of various defensive combos. It's like I have all new armies.

too.

Seriously, the Aquila strongpoint is one (ONE!) thing in a book of about ten. If the book gets banned, then by that logic, Aegis Defence Lines should be going as well. Is it just that everyone and his dog loves Quad Autocannon? That the BRB supercedes everything else? A reactionary community not willing to playtest things out of kneejerk fear?

It surely can't be worse than the Grey Knights codex was back in 5th. (And by 'it', I mean 'the contents of Stronghold Assault APART FROM the Macro Cannon...'

[Mr Mystery]

Tournaments can do as they wish. After all, it's just a large scale of 'fancy coming round mine for a game?' and as such, house rules are up for play too, published in advance.

Me? I love a challenge and I quite fancy taking on the Aquila thing, just to see if I can take it!

Plus, y'know....Scarabs and other Entropic Strike. By the time I'm done, not even a low rent TV makeover show will help you!

[SaveModifier]

Its fun, lets all just play some games and have a laugh, uber competitive tournaments aren't working with 6th edition so lets just have some games with friends and not worry too much

[chicop76]

Aegis defense line is still even used??? Thought that Tau and Daemons got rid of taking that, and dem marines. I tend to laugh at the line telling the other player one day you will get a cover save. I find that blowing away anything that get near the turret, while denying cover saves put you at a hundred point advantage.

[DarkLink]

The Aquila is nice, but it's more shock value. It can reliably dropped by about half its point value.

But's it's SUCH a hard counter to certain deathstars that it's getting a bad rap.

Meltas in a pod (or the equivalent) kill it fairly easily. And when it dies, the owner's army is left somewhat high and dry.

But if you have a handful of maxed out Deamon Princes, or a 800pr Jetseer council - then yeah - its gonna be a bad day.

I love Stronghold Assault - most fun I've had in a while learning the ins and outs of various defensive combos. It's like I have all new armies.

What if you dont play Marines? Then with AV15 and the D to kill anything that threatens it, I can't think of anything else that can reliably threaten it in normal 40k. The Farsight bomb? Not much else.

And the one game I've played against it, it killed nearly 2000pts in 3 turns. And it didn't shoot at any of the aformentioned deathstars. Just some eldar skimmers, some wraithknights, stuff like that. Not cheap, but not super expensive.

[deinol]

Aegis defense line is still even used??? Thought that Tau and Daemons got rid of taking that, and dem marines. I tend to laugh at the line telling the other player one day you will get a cover save. I find that blowing away anything that get near the turret, while denying cover saves put you at a hundred point advantage.

Sadly for my Eldar, its my only anti-air/interceptor choice. And since I mostly play casual games, I usually know in advance if I might be facing something with large amounts of ignore cover. I also tend to put Dire Avengers with a 5+ invlun save on it, although a Dark Reaper manning the gun can be really good.

The defense line isn't an auto-include anymore, but depending on what you are doing, it can still be a solid choice. I am tempted to figure out a way to model some of the new forts for Eldar, but that's a project for a much later day.

[This Dave]

Sadly for my Eldar, its my only anti-air/interceptor choice. And since I mostly play casual games, I usually know in advance if I might be facing something with large amounts of ignore cover. I also tend to put Dire Avengers with a 5+ invlun save on it, although a Dark Reaper manning the gun can be really good.

The defense line isn't an auto-include anymore, but depending on what you are doing, it can still be a solid choice. I am tempted to figure out a way to model some of the new forts for Eldar, but that's a project for a much later day.

The WoM Imperial Bunker is probably a better choice if you are looking for an air defence fortification. It's only 5 points more than an Aegis line but the gun can auto-fire as an Emplaced Weapon if the models on the battlements get blasted by cover ignoring weapons or just bad luck. Even at BS of 2 the Quad-gun has a good chance to hit because of its twin-linking. And if you have points to spare you can always give it a Void Shield to make it a lot harder to remove the models on the battlements.

[YorkNecromancer]

What if you dont play Marines? Then with AV15 and the D to kill anything that threatens it, I can't think of anything else that can reliably threaten it in normal 40k. The Farsight bomb? Not much else.

So what you're saying is that APART FROM THE AQUILA STRONGPOINT the rest of the book isn't a problem? :D

As for things that can threaten AV15?

Carnifex. Medusa. Lance Weapons. Vanquisher Cannon. (Chaos) Chainfist Terminators. Meltabombs. Deff Dreads. Deff Rollas. Multimelta Immolators. Hades Breaching Drill. You know, all those things that no-one takes because they're of no use in the current meta.

Oh.

Wait.

You mean the Aquila might shake up the meta in unexpected ways that are difficult to counter at the moment because we've never experienced AV15 before and we were all getting comfortable with not needing melta because conventional wisdom had asserted that plasma was the new king of the hill and it's like 6th edition has no precedent in previous version fo 40K because there are so many eventualities you might never be able to plan for them all unless you took a well rounded list which is something that has well and truly kicked all the complacent gamers out of their comfort zones?

...

I thought people wanted that. During the days of Leafblower and WAAAAAARD! Grey Knights, everyone said they wanted that.

[DarkLink]

You seem to be forgetting about that little gun on top. Yknow, the str d one. The one that will kill most of the stuff on the list before it ever reaches it.

It's definitely not unkillable, but really only melta is any good against it. Even str 10 sucks, since you must roll a 6 to pen, glances don't really do anything, and to wreck it you need another 6. The building rules are kind of dumb.

Without the D, then the stronghold is probably overpriced, because then, yes, all those things can reasonably get close enough to hurt it.

Also, what's with your attitude? Chill out.

[Denzark]

Like, the Macro Cannon really seems to be the only slightly broken thing, and even that is more a matter of the insane blast template size rather than the D strength (which against infantry is largely equivelant to str 10 anyway).




Also, what's with your attitude? Chill out.

He suddenly recalled he was responsible for educating the next generation of children, but had started a sentence with 'Like' as if he was an extra from Buffy the Vampire Slayer?

[YorkNecromancer]

You seem to be forgetting about that little gun on top. Yknow, the str d one. The one that will kill most of the stuff on the list before it ever reaches it.

I don't think the D is the issue. I think it's the sze of the blast. IMO, if it was Str D, small blast, it wouldn't remotely be an issue. The Huge Blast template is what makes it overly killy.


It's definitely not unkillable, but really only melta is any good against it. Even str 10 sucks, since you must roll a 6 to pen, glances don't really do anything, and to wreck it you need another 6. The building rules are kind of dumb.

Surely Lance weapons still work well?


Also, what's with your attitude? Chill out.

Oh sorry. I am; mostly I was using the big font thing for giggles.

It seemed that no-one has anything bad to say about the other Fortifications, which was kind of the point of this thread is all.


He suddenly recalled he was responsible for educating the next generation of children, but had started a sentence with 'Like' as if he was an extra from Buffy the Vampire Slayer?

I know, can you believe it? One of the TV shows most famous for playing with language and words, to the point that it has actual courses at university devoted to looking at the register of the characters? I honestly have no idea why innovative and engaging dialectal turns of phrase might have any interest to me. It's not like someone who works with language for a living enjoys playing with it in all its multifarious, delightful forms, rather than having a bug up his *** about using 'correct' English after all. :rolleyes:

Language is an artform not a science. The only correct way is the one which facilitates conversation; appropriate register/dialect/sociolect are all highly important things. Online forums require an informal tone, one which should hopefully come across as light and not too overly intellectual, lest one be seen as boorish, or uppity. As a consequence, I tend to reign in my more circumloquaciously sequipedelian turns of phrase, for fear of coming off like a ****ing ****, something which, to my eternal discomfiture, I am preternaturally gifted at in the first place.

Where was I?

Oh yes.

Teachers don't live in school, we don't spend every hour of our lives fussing over our subjects (newsflash: marking is so boring it makes you want to peel your skin off; why would I care in my own spare time?) and they do stuff that entertains them, because hey: so do you.

We're not a different species, and we're not behooven to behave like we do in the classroom on an online forum because it's simply not appropriate, fun, or interesting.

Very much like the entire rant I have just written.

Now, AS I WAS SAYING

Stronghold Assault, is like, way cool and stuff. Yeah, I really like it.

So nurny.

[DarkLink]

Ah, no worries. I've had to deal with a few people that are super-duper adamant that str D is the only possible solution to every problem in 40k, and if you disagree you're a whiny waac who's list is being invalidated (nevermind that real waac players would just jump on the new bandwagon of broken stuff without a second though).

So, yeah, stronghold assault isn't bad, just str d itself is stupid, ergo the aquila is, if you keep the d.

[chicop76]

I always used melta. Simply due to always fighting armies like guard, marines, csm, daemons, and necron. I am surprised that I even taking plasma when I used to take double or triple the melta weapons.

However armies like daemons never have melta weapons.

[Denzark]

circumloquaciously sequipedelian turns of phrase... I am preternaturally gifted at in the first place.Teachers don't live in school, we don't spend every hour of our lives fussing over our subjects (newsflash: marking is so boring it makes you want to peel your skin off; why would I care in my own spare time?) and they do stuff that entertains them, because hey: so do you.


So nurny.

Fairy 'Nuff guv'nor! Back to OT it is.

[Bigred]

Darklink said: (regarding attacking the Aquila)

What if you dont play Marines? Then with AV15 and the D to kill anything that threatens it, I can't think of anything else that can reliably threaten it in normal 40k. The Farsight bomb? Not much else.

-Anything with Lance still works wonders (so that takes care of both Eldar)
-Manticores still have a shot and will certainly clear the battlements from out of LoS
-Anything that can Smash and Deepstrike
-Anything with S:8+ and Armorbane

There's lots out there.

Back to OP - Aside from the D weapons (I don't think anyone would have issues with the Aquila if it didn't have a D weapon) - the book is great. I think it really opens up the game.

[DarkLink]

Lance is good, though I've yet to see an Eldar player that actually runs Lance over Scatter Lasers. Dark Eldar will be fine.

But Manticores are pretty poor. You get one hit per blast, you need a 6 to do anything, and then you need to roll a second 6 for damage to do anything meaningful. Not good odds.

Smash and Str 8+ Armorbane is not a solution, because of the D. In order to reach assault, you need to cross the board, and the D basically autokills anything it touches. A Daemon Prince might be able to do it, but only if they pass all of their Grounding checks. But, like, Tyranid MCs? Dead on arrival. You might eventually get one over there to Smash (but then you run into the exact same problem as with the Manticores, str 10 is terrible against av15 buildings), but you're going to be bleeding extremely expensive models to do so. Plus, the other guy can always bubblewrap for an extra turn or two of shooting. Same thing with any assault unit that you hope can kill it.

So, I stand by my statement that if you don't play drop pod Marines (or Dark Eldar, good point), you don't have any good solutions to the Aquila.

But, again, remove the D and suddenly Tyranid MCs and such can run across the board to smash it without getting killed off.

[Arkhan Land]

But at the same time, its sort of the inherent trouble of embedding entrenching and fortifying, lack of mobility. the way I see it there's a lot of temptation to go structure crazy but in truth given the high mobility of some units on 40k sometimes its more worth it to be able to move your points spent out of harms way than to have it basically wait for the waves of firepower and power weapons wash over it. For this reason alone in my current project of doing a WoM setup Im going to avoid the bigger stuff and simply enjoy the benefits of a few points spent in place of transports, I like my larger point expenditures to be able to mobilize in the face of inherent destruction Tyranid MCs are great example of this, back away from the carnifexs and keep shooting!!!

a few things I love about this stuff:
1) More varied choices of cover for the not so tough guys
2) the ability to cram 20-30 dudes into one new strucutres!
3) it brings a new level of dynamic to the game by expanding the fortifications, I think it took a while to properly implement flyers/aircraft, this is another well done layer to the rock, paper, scissors of 40ks unit dynamics.
Sort of oversimplified but here it is the great chain of 40k death: Infantry < Armour < Air < Fortress < CC < Infantry
a) Armour/MCs to take on Infantry's firepower,
b) Flyers/Air/FMCs to take on Armour, Emplacements/Fortifications to take on air (Imagine the devastating power of having quad guns on more than one building and protect with newly added av15 and void sheidls template weapons, but...
c) Fortifications it would seem are going to be wildly succeptible to CC attacks to which void shields will drop due to number or the fact that they don't protect what goes on with battlement areas, deep striking CC units with armourbane/melta are gonna be in need, and then...
d) again Infantry's greater output of weaker firepower to work against CC units. or even... GASP a true need for defensively placed CC units

by looping back around each counters vulnerability I think they can bring more variety and wear away at any fail-safe strategy. There are now 5 major dilemas each with their own solution of aborption or countering it, and all over top of it the weird oddball children that we call psykers

[Pssyche]

Why is everyone trying to destroy the building?
Clear the Battlements, like Big red touched on and TAKE the thing.
And voila, I'm now firing your D Weapons at you.

[daboarder]

...sigh, with what Pssyche? I mean if the problem is getting to the damn thing before your nuked, how do you "clear it and take it"

[DarkLink]

Shooting stuff off is easy, but people keep trying to bring up "get in base contact with it', when that's precisely the problem. By the time you do that, it's 3-4 turns into the game, and 3-4 turns of the D will cripple most armies.

[Defenestratus]

Its fun, lets all just play some games and have a laugh, uber competitive tournaments aren't working with 6th edition so lets just have some games with friends and not worry too much

*highfive*


Plus, y'know....Scarabs and other Entropic Strike. By the time I'm done, not even a low rent TV makeover show will help you!

Well if it follows the Super Heavy rules, entropic strike don't work.

[Pssyche]

So you're telling me that Thrust Moves cannot put YOUR troops onto an empty roof during the Assault Phase? Warp Spiders can Deep Strike in and move in that Turn's Assault Phase.
You are placing Terrain after placing Fortifications aren't you?
You are blocking off completely its Line of Sight to parts of the Board that you can then relatively safely deploy into?
It can't move to gain Line of Sight.
Equally, if it's firing a 15" Template it can't target you an hit its own Troops.
So outflank. Get in amongst his troops.
God Forbid, take a Super Heavy.


Or you could always sit there crying that its not fair and pack your toys away.

[Bigred]

Deepstrike on top of it - its friggin huge, and pretty easy to sweep a deepstrikable area clear of defenders.

Once you're on it, you're immune to its guns, and can either kill any dudes remaining on the battlements, or just attack it directly with your weapons (shooting or assault)

CSM Termys may be best at this with their easy access to both combi-melta and chainfists.

Also as others have pointed out, the high price really makes the rest of your army brittle. I fill up the rest of my force with fast movers to go contest objectives and clear out stragglers trying to hide from the gun. But my scoring units are somewhat scarce due to the Aquilla's high cost. The scorers tend to stay buttoned up and I try to place the fortress near multiple objectives, so they can run out and grab them easily if it hasn't been destroyed late game.

But if there is concerted enemy action in and around the stronghold by mid-late game, its really hard to do any effective objective grabbing, while a canny opponent can reserve and deepstrike units to grab his lategame and contest mine on the fortress.

I never said it was easy to beat it, but its very possible. It takes a different mindset, similar to the late 5th edition Eldar "hide and grab" tactics.

[Mr Mystery]

Av15?

I'll just DP it with Lychguard and Triarch Praetorians. Have it down in a jiffy they will!

And if that fails, I expect to have some very fat scarabs at the end of the game. Even if they have been subsequently blown into tiny ickle bits!

[DarkLink]

There's some fairly big ifs buries in those approaches. Anyways, my point never was that the thing was impossible to kill, just that, thanks to its durability against any ranged shooting other than drop pod marines and dark eldar, you're not likely to kill it before turn 3-4, and again, 3-4 turns of unimpeded str d can be game-breaking against a lot of armies.

[daboarder]

EDIT: Frak it, I am tired ov being told I am a WAAC player because I think the D-weapon is the stupidest thing since 2nd ed. If I was a WAAC player I'd be out buying a reverant, not the pair of hive crones I'd get for the same price.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, anyone who says that crap is an idiot. WAAC players don't really waste time complaining about the newest cheese, they just jump on the bandwagon and roll with it. When I tell people that I don't like str D because it hard-counters Grey Knights like a sledgehammer to the face, I shouldn't need to preface every single frikin' statement with "and by the way, I've been playing Grey Knights since they were Daemonhunters, and I played them exclusively on a regular basis for years before the actual GK codex came out".