WAAC or tactically sound...?

[Denzark]

Hey chaps and chapesses

Help me out with a bit of a moral compass. A couple of days ago, I won a close fought kill points game 3-2. In the end, out of the enemy 2k SM army, I had killed a master of the forge, a 10 man assault terminator squad (mix of LC/TH but still took a lot of ******* killing) and an Ironclad.

In the end, I had to run the last 2 members of a CSM squad to hide behind a Rhino to save the kill point.

The thing that worries me is, they had an Icon of Khorne. THE SKULL LORD CALLS ME! I SHOULD HAVE CHARGED THEM NOT FLED LIKE CRAVEN SHEEP! LORD KHORNE CARES NOT FROM WHENCE THE BLOOD FLOWS!

I have now worried about this for too long. Does playing against the fluff make me WAAC? In my defence the army list was not a killer (1 LR, no lash, no PM, possessed for frak's sake) and the game play was not cutthroat allowing forgotten moves out of phase etc.

So what makes WAAC - is it army composition, cutthroat game play (no deviation from the rules even to be sporting) totally unfluffy or a mix of all 3?

[Nabterayl]

I'm with BuFFo on this one (even though he hasn't responded yet): player's attitude makes it WAAC. Was your opponent having fun? Did he feel like you were playing fair? If the answer is yes to both, you weren't WAAC in my book. Wargaming is like dancing - play for your partner's enjoyment, and it's all good.

[Brosef Stalin]

I agree, it's still a game above all else, and I don't believe you are obligated to jeopardize victory to fit the fluff.

[Subject Keyword]

Just think of it like this:
They were murdering each other behind the Rhino.
They needed some privacy for their decapitation.

[Chumbalaya]

Last I checked, Khorne isn't the Chaos God of Stupidity...

[DarkLink]

Last I checked, Khorne isn't the Chaos God of Stupidity...

Right, that's why Berzerkers don't fight amongst themselves until they're all dead. If the Berzerkers instead attack other people, then in the end the pile of skulls will be a whole lot bigger. Running away to fight another day is ok (no rhyme intended).

[Nabterayl]

I've always thought it interesting that, though Khorne was birthed from rage, the chief Khornate virtue seems to be not rage but martial skill. Khorne may be pleased with an angry lout who clubs a thousand babies to death, but not as pleased as he is with a duelist who trains for years and bests a mighty champion in single combat, you know?

[DarkLink]

I've always thought it interesting that, though Khorne was birthed from rage, the chief Khornate virtue seems to be not rage but martial skill. Khorne may be pleased with an angry lout who clubs a thousand babies to death, but not as pleased as he is with a duelist who trains for years and bests a mighty champion in single combat, you know?

"A skilled warrior, eh? All the better to slay untold numbers in my name!"

I would think that Slaanesh would get a WS boost, too, though. In fact, I'd say that if we gave Noise Marines WS 5 they'd be a pretty good deal. Sonic weapons are still a little expensive, maybe, but Noise Marines would be a lot more popular I think.

[Melissia]

What the hell does WAAC mean? The only definition for that that I can think of would be the former Women's Army Corps or the british WAAC which employed women in the World Wars, and obviously neither of those apply.

[sirrouga]

WAAC means "Win At All Costs"

Generally applied to people who use odd understandings of rules to better help them win games or people that bring heavy tournament list to a friendly social gaming scene.

[Melissia]

Ah. In that case I'd just like to state my preference for the terms "powergamers" and "munchkins", because to me WAAC has actually good connotations and shouldn't be ruined by people like this :P

[Kahoolin]

Ah. In that case I'd just like to state my preference for the terms "powergamers" and "munchkins", because to me WAAC has actually good connotations and shouldn't be ruined by people like this :PAs far as I can tell people started using the term WAAC because some people objected to "powergamer" being a negative label, and wanted to call themselves "powergamers (in a good way)". I like to refer to them as PGIAGW's. ;)

So that only leaves "munchkin" for us to use, which I agree is better than another bloody acronym. . . until the day people start *****ing that "I'm a munchkin and I take offence at the implication that being a munchkin is bad! Stop telling me how to have fun, fun police!"

In response to the OP, if the game was relaxed and fun and close fought, I wouldn't hold it against you to save that KP. Maybe the Berserkers were catching their breath, and the fact that you won represents that after turn 6 ended they went on to make skull chairs out of the remaining enemies. A 40k battle is a snapshot of a larger scenario after all. If you'd been losing soundly though, and your Berserks hid to save a measly KP that wouldn't have won you the game anyway- THAT would be unfluffy in a munchkinny way, in my opinion. If you're going to lose anyway, you may as well be all BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

[Just_Me]

I'm with Melissa on this one, WAAC has some very positive and noble connotations which should not be sullied with negative connections. Personally I think "powergamer" is the best term, and I don't see it as negative. It is true that I don't ascribe to that theory of the hobby myself, and I think that it misses out on a lot of the potential enjoyment, but it is a perfectly valid approach to any gaming hobby.

As to the original question, the fact that this is troubling you at all says that you aren't powergaming. There are plenty of ways to rationalize your actions in fluff terms, perhaps the Berzerkers were disgusted at the prospect of being slain at range in dishonorable fashion and took shelter to plan their attack, but the battle ended before they could carry out their plan. Berzerkers are devoted servants of Khorne, but they are not stupid, they are quite willing to take advantage of cover and use advanced infantry tactics in order to get to grips with their enemies. They know that Khorne will welcome any blood, but both they and he prefer to offer the blood of enemies. Khorne despises weakness above all else, and while any weakling can take their own life, great warriors take the lives of others from them, thus "proving" their strength.

[Denzark]

As to the original question, the fact that this is troubling you at all says that you aren't powergaming. There are plenty of ways to rationalize your actions in fluff terms, perhaps the Berzerkers were disgusted at the prospect of being slain at range in dishonorable fashion and took shelter to plan their attack, but the battle ended before they could carry out their plan.

I like this - in actuality my opponent had cleverly taken casualties in the shooting turn to prevent the Berzerkers charging so this does apply to some extent.

See what everyone is saying about berzerkers although for this particualr brand of frothing looney I think you are being quite generous - at some point they all go Kharn-esque and lose the plot, just not quite so destructively - hence their name - does what it says on the tin!

But thank you for these comments, can someone please explain munchkin!!!

[BuFFo]

I'm with BuFFo on this one (even though he hasn't responded yet): player's attitude makes it WAAC. Was your opponent having fun? Did he feel like you were playing fair? If the answer is yes to both, you weren't WAAC in my book. Wargaming is like dancing - play for your partner's enjoyment, and it's all good.

Nab... For Christs sake... Even though you are 100% correct in your assumption, you leave me with nothing to say!

Stop stealing my Breath, you jester hat wearing wall Goblin ;)!

Well, I have to ad naseum so I stay on topic... Yes, WAAC is 100% on the player. Without the player, no list, no models, nothing would even move without a human being pushing the figures or deploying a list.

As for your Khorne dilemma... If you, as the general, of your Khorne army, deems it necessary to to hide behind a rhino to win a battle, then you are not going against any fluff.

Khorne warriors want to live just like anyone else. :eek:

[DarkLink]

I kinda think that criticizing a so-called power gamer for playing competitively is kinda like complaining about how good an Olympic athlete is at their particular sport. Not a perfect metaphor, but whatever. We play to compete, not to win, subtle though that difference may be.

[Nabterayl]

I like this - in actuality my opponent had cleverly taken casualties in the shooting turn to prevent the Berzerkers charging so this does apply to some extent.

See what everyone is saying about berzerkers although for this particualr brand of frothing looney I think you are being quite generous - at some point they all go Kharn-esque and lose the plot, just not quite so destructively - hence their name - does what it says on the tin!
Were they berzerkers? I thought they were just CSM with an Icon of Khorne. I guess I would agree that berzerkers holding back is kind of unfluffy (in my opinion they should be subject to Rage), but playing against fluff still isn't the same as Powergaming-In-A-Bad-Way. As long as your opponent is fine with the fluff level of your playing, I think it's all good.

[MVBrandt]

Wanting to win a game is natural. Though it can certainly happen, people in SUPER FRIENDLY games of Monopoly don't refuse to put hotels on places in order to keep it "less competitive" ... nor do they typically let you get away without paying rent in order to just "have fun."

40k is a GAME. It's not real, the fluff dosen't represent anything that actually exists on Earth, and the game itself is NOT SACRED. Games have winners and losers, and you play by the rules of the game to accomplish a win or a loss.

If you play ANY game in such a way that you are a giant raging loud mouthed douche about it all, constantly arguing over every little inch and being a general jerk to your opponent ... you're unpleasant, but that has nothing to do with whether you want to win at all costs. I've met plenty of horrifically bad sports who care ONLY for the fluff, and would never want to be labeled "WAAC."

You made a smart move. GJ. Unless while doing it you went "HAHA, TOO BAD YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET THESE GUYS, YOU LOSE WEAKSOSS HOMO" or something equally ugly, and as long as you didn't stick your tongue out too hard at him, or punch him in the willy ... you know, I think you're fine. You're not WAAC at all ... you just recognized that you were playing a game, the game had conditions to be met to win, and at the time the condition YOU had to meet was "make these game pieces safe."

When you are charging headlong into a unit recklessly, they're KHORNATE SPACE MARINES. When you're running away to hide, they're plastic miniatures. That's the beauty of it ... since none of it is real, it's w/e you want it to be at the moment. So long as you're not a jerk, you're fine.

[Subject Keyword]

the game itself is NOT SACRED.


Heretic! (I never thought I catch my Xenos-*** saying that!):D

I COMPLETELY agree with everything else, though.