Attacking Multiple Targets

[bigman45]

I had a Deamon Prince charge my unit that disembarked out of a rhino. When he charged he was hand to hand with my rhino and my unit. He attack my rhino with 2 attacks and the unit with 3 attacks. Can you split up your attacks like that?

[BuFFo]

Unless the Demon Prince and the Unit were all on square bases, and the unit was flush with the rhnio, it is physically impossible for the Prince to charge both units at once.

You must charge the closest model, and with circular bases, you can only ever charge a single model.

To answer your question, yes he can.

[Nabterayl]

To clarify, the daemon prince would have to charge a single unit, and get in base to base contact with the closest model in that unit by the shortest route possible. However, if doing so ends him in base contact with another unit (such as the Rhino) - rare, but possible - he would indeed be able to split his attacks as you describe.

[DarkLink]

Right, it is theoretically possible. The most likely case is if there are two units within range, with the closer unit partially blocking the further unit. The DP moves around the closer unit, and comes into contact with the further unit before leaving base contact with the closer unit.

Mathmatically speaking, this is almost impossible to do. The bases must be in exactly the right spot for something like this to happen. But, because of the fudge factor involved in human measurement, it isn't quite as impossible to do, and can happen.

[pgarfunkle]

As long at the DP assaults the unit and the Rhino is closer than the second model in the unit then I don't think there is anything wrong with this according to the rule book. And yes it is fine to split the attacks providing it is done before any dice are rolled.

[Jwolf]

As long at the DP assaults the unit and the Rhino is closer than the second model in the unit then I don't think there is anything wrong with this according to the rule book. And yes it is fine to split the attacks providing it is done before any dice are rolled.

What does the second model in the unit have to do with this situation? It's easy to hit a unit and a transport if the closest member of the unit is "behind" the transport and in BtB with it; in any other situation it is nigh impossible.

[pgarfunkle]

I was thinking about the rule that requires models to assault the closest enemy model, but realised as Jwolf says it doesn't matter. As long as the closest enemy model is next to and behind or level with the transport it can be assaulted at the same time.

[Rixnor]

So bigman45 I think we answered your question, its not probable that he would be charging both, but if he was then he could split attacks.

But to be nitpicky, if your charging a unit don't you still have to maintain the 1 inch separation in your closest to closest move? So wouldn't it be impossible to have contact with one unit (even a vehicle) and charge the other?

Rix

[DarkLink]

So bigman45 I think we answered your question, its not probable that he would be charging both, but if he was then he could split attacks.

But to be nitpicky, if your charging a unit don't you still have to maintain the 1 inch separation in your closest to closest move? So wouldn't it be impossible to have contact with one unit (even a vehicle) and charge the other?

Rix

No, not anymore. They got rid of that in 5th.

[Duke]

Darklink: Are you saying that they got rid of the 1" rule in 5th edition? That is the first I have heard of this... I was still under the impression that you cannot be within 1" of a unit that you aren't charging.

Duke

[Nabterayl]

They got rid of the 1" rule for purposes of assault. For instance, unit A can charge unit B, and as long as one model of A ends up in base to base contact with one model of B, any model of A is also allowed to get into base to base contact with any model of unit C.

[Rixnor]

No, not anymore. They got rid of that in 5th.

When looking that up in the rulebook I found:

"This means that assaulting models may still not move through friendly or enemy models, may not pass through gaps narrower than their base, and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting." (BRB pg 34)

That means that, no you cannot move a one unit squad in base to base with any other models besides the one your assaulting.

Rix

[Ferro]

Not exactly Rixnor. It means if you make base contact with other units, then you ARE assaulting them too. You are not permitted to make base contact with a unit without it being a defacto charge against them. It's too confusing to say, "yes, they're touching bases but I'm not actually assaulting them."

So: You are allowed to assault multiple units on a single charge, as long as you follow the rules for moving the models in assault; during these assault moves you can enter the 1" personal space buffer zone around any enemy model; you may make contact with any other enemy model, but if you do you're charging them also.

[Nabterayl]

Yes, but see also page 34:


As you move assaulting models, you may find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting.

As usual the closest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest model in the enemy unit against which the assault was declared. Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models.

This means that the language you quoted, Rixnor, must mean that you assault any unit you move into base contact with. If it meant that you could not move into base contact with a unit other than the one you declared an assault against, then multiple assaults would not be possible - and yet they clearly are.

[ChaosDave]

i think it makes sence when you look at it like this. unit a unit b..........................................(each letter is a guy in the unit)............................................. ........... ... unit c
so -unit c- shoots -unit a- it then must assult -unit a- but as you move the unit into assult you would move the closest guy first.. assult done. now the rest of the unit could charge -unit b- as long as they stay in coherency. if you have a IC in -unit c- he would have to be moved first. so if he is the (N) then u and n would assult -unit a- and the rest could assult unit b. ok hope that helped

[Duke]

They got rid of the 1" rule for purposes of assault. For instance, unit A can charge unit B, and as long as one model of A ends up in base to base contact with one model of B, any model of A is also allowed to get into base to base contact with any model of unit C.

Right, but what I was talking about was the idea that if Im not charging unit B I can't be within 1" of it at any point.

@Chaos Dave: That just made it more confusin, brother. I think I get what you were trying to say though.

Duke

[ChaosDave]

as far as i can see when i read the rules again is that when assulting, is that you move just like the normal move .with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of an enemy model. thats right out of the book. so i think the point of all the rules is that you try to move close to the fight..which means alot of thought in the movement phase. i think the intent of the rule is so you can assult as may guys as possible into base to base contact. even when they are all pact on a table edge. this happens more with horde armys. where they use every inch of table space.

[Rixnor]

You guys do remember that we were talking about a demon prince charging. I know that you can assault multiple units with a squad. Its just that since you are only charging with one model you can't touch any other squads besides the one you declare charging.

Rix

[Lerra]

Can a single model split its attacks between two units? I thought a model could only choose one target (although a squad can direct each model's attacks at different units). I can't find anything in the BRB that allows this.

[Duke]

You guys do remember that we were talking about a demon prince charging. I know that you can assault multiple units with a squad. Its just that since you are only charging with one model you can't touch any other squads besides the one you declare charging.

Rix

No, the reason (generally) you can't charge multiple squads with MC's or IC's is because of how the assault rules work.

1. you must assault closest model to closest model.
2. In all but the most rare of situations there are not two models that are equidistant
3. Since one model is closer to the other you can only then assault one unit.

Example:
A daemon prince didn't shoot and wants to charge. He has two options, Eldar unit A and Eldar unit B. Unit A has a model 3" from the daemon prince, Unit B has its closest model at 5" from the daemon Prince. this means that the Daemon Prince has to charge Unit A because he moves first to the closest model... (note: in real practice you can't premeasure distances between the models in the units who are possible targets of assault and the daemon prince.)

Duke

[Nabterayl]

@Rixnor - yes, I agree that the multiple rules feel a little strained when you read them as applying to the model that made the initial assault move. On the other hand, the alternative is to read them as not allowing a single-model unit to assault at all, not because another model is blocking it from assaulting its intended target, but because it would have to assault both of them (remembering we are talking about the DP moving into base contact with both because it moved the shortest possible distance to its intended target). That seems even more strained to me. I can see, "You can't assault this unit because this other one is in the way; you have to assault it first or go around." But "You can't assault this unit because you'd have to assault this other unit at the same time?"

@Lerra - A model that is in base to base contact with any units can only allocate attacks against units it is in base to base contact with. Ordinarily that means only one unit, but in the rare instance that you are in base to base contact with two units, they're both fair game.

[Duke]

Nab is right, as long as you are in base to base with both models you can split your attacks.

I had a tangent question:

- Assume an assault was just initiated where your opponent's unit (No IC's) just charged your unit (with IC). Your opponent doesn't nominate what attacks are going where (For simplicity sake lets also assume that ALL attacks can be allocated to either the IC or the unit). If you opponent just starts rolling dice without nominating do you.
1. Force him to start over and nominate.
2. Assume all attacks are going to the squad.
3. Assume all attacks are going to the IC.

[DarkLink]

You guys do remember that we were talking about a demon prince charging. I know that you can assault multiple units with a squad. Its just that since you are only charging with one model you can't touch any other squads besides the one you declare charging.


There is no longer any artificial restriction preventing you from coming into base contact with multiple units. Yes, with a single model this is difficult to do, because you have to coincidentally touch the second squad while also moving the shortest possible distance to the squad you are assaulting, but it can happen.


@Rixnor - yes, I agree that the multiple rules feel a little strained when you read them as applying to the model that made the initial assault move. On the other hand, the alternative is to read them as not allowing a single-model unit to assault at all, not because another model is blocking it from assaulting its intended target, but because it would have to assault both of them (remembering we are talking about the DP moving into base contact with both because it moved the shortest possible distance to its intended target). That seems even more strained to me. I can see, "You can't assault this unit because this other one is in the way; you have to assault it first or go around." But "You can't assault this unit because you'd have to assault this other unit at the same time?"


I'm backing Nab on this one. I'll also add that the rules never specify that you must assault the closest enemy unit, only the closest model with an enemy unit. You pick what unit you want to assault, then measure to the closest model within that unit. If you happen to end up in base contact with a second unit at the end of this move, congratulations, you've just assaulted two units with a single model.

[Nabterayl]

1. Force him to start over and nominate.
2. Assume all attacks are going to the squad.
3. Assume all attacks are going to the IC.
Personally I go with 1.

[Duke]

I was thinking as much. Generally I go with number one but I have been noticing that lately a lot of people have just been going with number 2.

[DarkLink]

Generally, we go with either one or two. If a player realizes that he can allocate after his first roll, and he wants to, then we just reroll everything. If he decides just to hit one or the other, we don't bother rerolling. We aren't usually too serious about that sort of stuff.

Of course, if different WSs come into play then we usually go to option 1, since that can affect the dice rolls.

[ChaosDave]

im with darklink... if you opps a action just redo the whole thing.sometimes its hard to keep track of whats in a unit or where all the IC's are.. as far as attacking an IC in a unit who ever is in base to base with him and any one who is with in 2 in of that combat could attack him. because once the fight starts the IC is a different unit, untill the combat is over. so if the IC is in a unit but not in base to base combat he cant even fight..... as far as the DP hitting your unit and your rhino hes on a big base so i could see that. all he has to do is touch both. its not like you have to center each modle as you attack.

[Doomgrin]

Nab is right, as long as you are in base to base with both models you can split your attacks.

I had a tangent question:

- Assume an assault was just initiated where your opponent's unit (No IC's) just charged your unit (with IC). Your opponent doesn't nominate what attacks are going where (For simplicity sake lets also assume that ALL attacks can be allocated to either the IC or the unit). If you opponent just starts rolling dice without nominating do you.
1. Force him to start over and nominate.
2. Assume all attacks are going to the squad.
3. Assume all attacks are going to the IC.

Normally we assume #2 as a default. If he changes his mind, I give the option of #1. However, if a model is only in b2b with the IC, they MUST go against the IC and use #1