Jeebus... I still can't decide!

[Aristocrap]

So at first, I was deciding between IG and SoB. I picked Eldar. Now I'm having the same problem again. This time, I'm considering Eldar and CSM. I have the Eldar Codex, so granted, I know more about them than I do CSM. I also have a squad of DAs, but that's beside the point.

Eldar beccause:
-Fluff: The last of a dying race fighting against the universe for their survival is badass. I enjoyed reading the storyline in the Codex.

-Models: They're so clean and crisp. Unlike Orks, who are smelly and dirty. I like the smooth, curvy designs of their vehicles especially.

-Play Style: Specialized units that excell at one aspect of combat sound really neat and give the player a wealth of tactical options. Additionally, units some units "combo" well with others, which is very rewarding to pull off.

CSM because:
-Fluff (again): The rebellious nature of the CSM is pretty hardcore. Breaking off from the Imperium and all that. Plus, it fits my personality somewhat, as I often tend to be rebellious to higher powers (parents, schoolwork, ect.)

-Conversions: CSM have a huge potential for conversions. Be it mutations, Chaos-y scenery, horns, spikes, banners, the whole deal. In a sense, no two armies are the same. That's awfully hard to say if you're playing races like Eldar or Tau.

-Unit Choices: CSM in particular has neato units like Oblits, Daemon Princes, Plauge Marines, ect. From what I've heard, CSM tends to be a vey competitive army.

So all that being said, I can't really decide. I want to be very competiitive, but I also want to be able to really enjoy modelling/painting my army and have one that looks striking (or scary!) on the tabletop. My main opponents consist of IG, Nids, potentially Orks, SM, and CSM once in a while.

[Melissia]

I would reccomend Eldar on the simple basis of they're not Marines, and therefor they will not look as generic as most armies will.

But your mileage may vary.

[Aristocrap]

True, I can't stand Marines because of all their fame and fortune either. But CSM aren't lapdogs of the Emperor so I like them :D

I doubt they'd look as generic if I did a bunch of crazy-cool conversions.

[Melissia]

CSMs are just Marines who are angry at daddy.

[Aristocrap]

Well all daddy does is sit on his Golden Throne and gets headaches all day. He won't even play baseball with me! :(

But then again, that's beside the point since neither of these armies like him anyway.

[Just_Me]

Eldar, I don't share in the marine hate, but it have to admit it would be nice to see something different. And the fact is you have already admitted that you enjoy the aesthetics of the Eldar look, feel, and play style, so you will get more out of that army all around

[eagleboy7259]

CSM's for multiple reasons:

A) Their codex is more up to date and more in line with the principals that allow you to build effective 5th edition type armies.

B) There are very few "bad" units in this army and almost everything is able to work well with each other. While I'm not going to outright say there are more "bad" units in the eldar army, you have to build with a direction in mind and most players have a narrow view of the "good" units so Mech-dar, Eldrad, and Jetlocks are common. I guess I'm saying while trying to be different you end up being more like everyone else.

C) Most people would consider CSM to be a top tier army in terms of competitiveness along with IG whereas Eldar are part of the upper middle with SM, Orks, and such.

However competitiveness asides it really does come down to your personal decision. You can win with any army you put on the table you just have to tailor it to you. Fluff wise anyone can be negative, "space faeries" & "emo marines" . Personally I would find a story you like, or a paint scheme, or someone else's army or unit that just wowed you and go from there. At least that's the road I usually take.

[DarkLink]

C) Most people would consider CSM to be a top tier army in terms of competitiveness along with IG whereas Eldar are part of the upper middle with SM, Orks, and such.



Except for Chumbalaya. He thinks all those armies are the worst in the game :p. Except maybe IG.

Seriously though, if you're stuck, borrow an army and play both. See which you like better.

[eagleboy7259]

Except for Chumbalaya. He thinks all those armies are the worst in the game :p. Except maybe IG.

Seriously though, if you're stuck, borrow an army and play both. See which you like better.

I find Chumbalaya to be like a kid in a class taking a test. Everyone puts A and gets it right, Chumby puts D for some reason. The tests come back and the teachers going over the test and Chumby somehow proves not only everyone else in the class wrong, but also the teacher. All the other students are content thinking the answer is A for the rest of their life, but Chumby knew all along it was really D

[fuzzbuket]

Play eldar but read the rules befor you buy How lucky you are will say how you play
(also do you play against smurfs or hordes??)
If lucky
banshees,harlequins,hawyks, and T3

If unlucky
wraithguard, wraithlord, pathfinders, prisim,DA, scorpions

ALWAYS HAVE A SQUAD OF WRAITHGUARD!!
T6+fortune vs boltgun=:D
wraith cannon+guide vs ANYTHING =:D

[Chumbalaya]

I find Chumbalaya to be like a kid in a class taking a test. Everyone puts A and gets it right, Chumby puts D for some reason. The tests come back and the teachers going over the test and Chumby somehow proves not only everyone else in the class wrong, but also the teacher. All the other students are content thinking the answer is A for the rest of their life, but Chumby knew all along it was really D

Ooh snap, it's on!

CSM have serious problems competitively:
1) Poor balance between units: You ever see Thousand Sons? How about Raptors? Havocs? That's because there are obviously superior units in every slot. Fail Codex design.
2) Everything that they share with SM is overpriced and inferior. Welcome to Jervishammer, the Dark Angels are saving your seat.
3) All of their ranged firepower is pretty much concentrated into Heavy Support. Fast Attack don't do it, Troops don't do it unless you pay for 10 marines to babysit a lascannon, and Elites have to contend with high prices and trigger happy Dreads.
4) No Fast Attack worth a damn. When an entire section of your Codex can be thrown out, you've got problems.
5) Problems with mech. What have you got to nail armor? Oblits, overpriced Preds, Fire Frenzy Dreads, and foot heavy weapons. Where's the melta? Oh right, inside your Rhinos. Good thing they're so resilient.

It's not completely terrible, but they have critical deficiencies in important areas that don't matter so much against 4th ediotioney armies, making them a noobslayer army like Orks and Daemons, but against proper mech forces they tend to struggle. As always, player skill can overcome problems like this, so figure it out.

Eldar, while limited in what actually is worth fielding (old Codex will do that to ya), the units that are good are really good and work well together. Very nasty builds you can put in here, even if it's just 1 or 2.

[Lerra]

It depends a bit on what your playstyle is. Do you like mobility, being deadly in assault, shooting? Do you like having a flood of models on the table, or a few really good units? Both CSM and Eldar are older codices that are still competitive, but the competitive builds are fairly limited. I'd actually rank Eldar in one of the top 3 or 5 codices right now, but only if you're willing to use certain builds.

If you like the idea of Chaos, you can play a Chaos version of nearly any army. Traitor Guard works especially well.

[eagleboy7259]

Ooh snap, it's on!

CSM have serious problems competitively:
1) Poor balance between units: You ever see Thousand Sons? How about Raptors? Havocs? That's because there are obviously superior units in every slot. Fail Codex design.
2) Everything that they share with SM is overpriced and inferior. Welcome to Jervishammer, the Dark Angels are saving your seat.
3) All of their ranged firepower is pretty much concentrated into Heavy Support. Fast Attack don't do it, Troops don't do it unless you pay for 10 marines to babysit a lascannon, and Elites have to contend with high prices and trigger happy Dreads.
4) No Fast Attack worth a damn. When an entire section of your Codex can be thrown out, you've got problems.
5) Problems with mech. What have you got to nail armor? Oblits, overpriced Preds, Fire Frenzy Dreads, and foot heavy weapons. Where's the melta? Oh right, inside your Rhinos. Good thing they're so resilient.

It's not completely terrible, but they have critical deficiencies in important areas that don't matter so much against 4th ediotioney armies, making them a noobslayer army like Orks and Daemons, but against proper mech forces they tend to struggle. As always, player skill can overcome problems like this, so figure it out.

Eldar, while limited in what actually is worth fielding (old Codex will do that to ya), the units that are good are really good and work well together. Very nasty builds you can put in here, even if it's just 1 or 2.

Lol this is why I love getting advice from you. I secretly completely agree with everything you said even though publicly I want to scream out Plague Marines! Bezerkers! 30pt Terminators! Defilers! and everything that makes them look like a 1st rate squad on paper.

[Subject Keyword]

It sounds like you would enjoy Eldar more. There is also a good amount of support for them in the gaming and modeling community. Plus, they are badasses without being modified and pumped full of steroids.

[Sam]

It sounds like you would enjoy Eldar more. There is also a good amount of support for them in the gaming and modeling community. Plus, they are badasses without being modified and pumped full of steroids.

Shenanigans. Eldar are space elves that have generic elf fluff: Wooo! We used to run this whole blank (insert world, galaxy, universe, what have you), but we grew arrogant and lost control of our amazing powers (though clearly not amazing enough, as you didn't have the power to CONTROL YOUR POWER) and destroyed our civilization. And now we are a dying race, but we still think that everyone else is a lesser being.

Now, this isn't to say that CSM are more original than Eldar (come on, super soldiers rebelling against those that created them, who could have forseen this?), but lets not pretend that Eldar have some claim to inherent badassary simply because they have extreme self-control that they wouldn't need if they had had a little of it to begin with.

[DarkLink]

(come on, super soldiers rebelling against those that created them, who could have forseen this?)

Ah, but they only rebelled after turning to the dark side of the... um... warp. Yeah. Totally original:rolleyes:.

[murrburger]

ALWAYS HAVE A SQUAD OF WRAITHGUARD!!
T6+fortune vs boltgun=:D
wraith cannon+guide vs ANYTHING =:D


I've been playing Eldar since 2nd edition. Please don't do this, Wraithguard are horribly expensive money-wise, and point wise.

I'd say go for Eldar. Sadly, though, a lot of the units have a tough time fitting into a strong list, due to higher points costs on an already low model count. You'll see all these cool units in the codex that you'll want to try, but never fit into your list.

Eldar need to try hard in 5th edition... either that or you can spam Jetlocks, Fire Dragons and Serpents and whatever non guardian-defender troops you require, then hope you can keep everything in reserve until turn 5 and maybe have a chance of winning, maybe.

[Lord Azaghul]

CSMs are just Marines who are angry at daddy.

HA!
Best explanation of Chaose space marines ever!

[Subject Keyword]

Shenanigans. Eldar are space elves that have generic elf fluff: Wooo! We used to run this whole blank (insert world, galaxy, universe, what have you), but we grew arrogant and lost control of our amazing powers (though clearly not amazing enough, as you didn't have the power to CONTROL YOUR POWER) and destroyed our civilization. And now we are a dying race, but we still think that everyone else is a lesser being.
.

You speak truth, my friend.

But they do have giant buildings where the war-obsessed are trapped to hone their battle skills forever, a faction of warriors with dreadlocks who duel-wield chainswords and shoot people with their faces, and blood dripping Demi-gods made of iron and lava that are created by burning a naked pretty-boy alive.

They have their charms.

[Melissia]

blood dripping Demi-gods made of iron and lava that are created by burning a naked pretty-boy alive.

Hrm. This tempts me.

[Just_Me]

Hrm. This tempts me.

Disturbing.

I have always thought of the Eldar more in terms of the Protoss, Minbari, or Tiste peoples rather than Tolkien's elves. Not that Tolkien's elves weren't seriously cool, but most later incarnations of them are arrogant self-righteous pretty-boy pansies (yeah, I'm not bitter at all :p).

[DarkLink]

Disturbing.

Quite



I have always thought of the Eldar more in terms of the Protoss, Mimbari, or Tiste peoples rather than Tolkien's elves. Not that Tolkien's elves weren't seriously cool, but most later incarnations of them are arrogant self-righteous pretty-boy pansies (yeah, I'm not bitter at all :p).

Really, Protoss are more based on early Eldar concepts, since Starcraft is a 40k game in all but name (no, really). Regardless, stereotypical haughty elves have gotten very cliche in fantasy literature. Putting them in space helps a lot, but it would be nice to see a little more divergence.

[Sam]

It should be noted that I'm not much of a fan of elves in general, so I'm a little biased.

[Bedroom General]

If you take into account monetary expenditure then a Plague marine army is the best bang for your buck. The down(up)side is that you will need to convert (greenstuff or equivalent) the plastic CSM (don't use the metal plague marines unless you get 'em as a gift.) to plagueys, which is fun(tedious). a couple of rhinos etc to round off the force and two winged DP's (can be converted once again) and you have a resilient and effective, compact army for less $. This is from my experience, but my pointy eared space pansies sure do look purty!

[Just_Me]

Really, Protoss are more based on early Eldar concepts, since Starcraft is a 40k game in all but name (no, really). Regardless, stereotypical haughty elves have gotten very cliche in fantasy literature. Putting them in space helps a lot, but it would be nice to see a little more divergence.

This I know, but Blizzard went more deeply along the route I think the Eldar should go. Recall, at the time Blizzard ripped off GW Eldar were pretty much "space elves" just like the Orks were still (literally) Space Orks. Nowadays they have gotten fleshed out a bit more; to the point that they are more like something different that just happen to really resemble elves, and I prefer to emphasize the "something different" aspect of them.

[Morgrim]

I side with Melissia on the tempting issue.

[scadugenga]

Well, aside from the fact I've played Eldar since '89..I'd say eldar.

They look a lot better, they aren't SM angry at Daddy (nice, btw) and they have an ironically flexible list. (Ironic in the sense that each individual entry is fairly static, but they're so many specialist choices that you can outfit your army any number of different ways.)

CSM have their allure, yes. But I've always found the eldar to have excellent adaptability/usefullness. (save 3rd ed eldar. That was a crime against the universe.)

Cheers,

S

[archimbald]

csm simply because i have 3500 points to play with and another 1500 on the way. plus they are fun to play with, if one or two dies its aw well, they had it coming, plus theyre improved stat line

[MVBrandt]

So at first, I was deciding between IG and SoB. I picked Eldar. Now I'm having the same problem again. This time, I'm considering Eldar and CSM. I have the Eldar Codex, so granted, I know more about them than I do CSM. I also have a squad of DAs, but that's beside the point.

Eldar beccause:
-Fluff: The last of a dying race fighting against the universe for their survival is badass. I enjoyed reading the storyline in the Codex.

-Models: They're so clean and crisp. Unlike Orks, who are smelly and dirty. I like the smooth, curvy designs of their vehicles especially.

-Play Style: Specialized units that excell at one aspect of combat sound really neat and give the player a wealth of tactical options. Additionally, units some units "combo" well with others, which is very rewarding to pull off.

CSM because:
-Fluff (again): The rebellious nature of the CSM is pretty hardcore. Breaking off from the Imperium and all that. Plus, it fits my personality somewhat, as I often tend to be rebellious to higher powers (parents, schoolwork, ect.)

-Conversions: CSM have a huge potential for conversions. Be it mutations, Chaos-y scenery, horns, spikes, banners, the whole deal. In a sense, no two armies are the same. That's awfully hard to say if you're playing races like Eldar or Tau.

-Unit Choices: CSM in particular has neato units like Oblits, Daemon Princes, Plauge Marines, ect. From what I've heard, CSM tends to be a vey competitive army.

So all that being said, I can't really decide. I want to be very competiitive, but I also want to be able to really enjoy modelling/painting my army and have one that looks striking (or scary!) on the tabletop. My main opponents consist of IG, Nids, potentially Orks, SM, and CSM once in a while.

HUGE Caveat - I haven't read this entire thread.

Eldar -
Fluff - I don't enjoy the fluff for Eldar that much. It's cool that their unchecked emotions birthed a god. It's cool that they have awesome powers. It's not cool that they are simply another race in a batch of races created by the Old Ones (a batch that included ORKS) to fight the Necrons and other ****. So, the Old Ones considered the Eldar about as useful in their own ways as Orks. Also, they're all dying, they're afraid to get their freak on for fear of it causing the spontaneous creation of demons (sounds like a giant gaggle of guilty Catholics to me ... no offense meant, I'm a Catholic!), and they look like pansy space elves, which is really all they are.

Models - Yes, the models are clean and crisp. They're also incredibly difficult to convert and work with beyond the "plain" b/c they're so damned curvy, clean and crisp. Don't know how good you are with modeling and ****, though.

Playstyle - Boring as crap. Most Eldar lists are bad, by virtue of a bad dex that grew worse in 5th ed. Furthermore, Mechdar and jetseer Eldar that a lot of internet 40k "experts" love so much are not really all that great ... I'll change my opinion when one threatens to beat me.

Chaos -
Fluff - As far as your imagination goes with this one. Since Chaos permits easy existence outside of time, proportion and space, you could run basically anything you wanted to. I always thought the Horus Heresy was good story material, too.

Models/Conversions - Good range of plastics and metals, infinite conversions, and a lot of them look good even if you suck at modeling ... kind of like Orks, "worse" sometimes looks better.

Playstyle - While still dominated by one or two builds, the Chaos dex has far more variety of competitive builds, which translates to far more playstyle variety. Playing with crappy sub-competitive lists may enable other playstyles with both books, but most people - even those who are among the douchey population of people that love to criticize "competitive" gamers as not having fun, etc. etc. - get tired of losing builds and find a way to make theirs competitive to some degree; Chaos dex has a wider variety of these than Eldar dex.

[imperialsavant]

:) Well ultimately its really up to you to make the choice but I would pick Eldar.
They need a good stratagy to maximise their abilities but the models are really great, good Vehicles, jetbikes etc & they are the "Good" Xenos after all.