State of WFB Rundown by Harry

[Bigred]

Harry did an end of the year rundown (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?386475-No-9th-Edition-in-2014/page7) on Warseer of what he know's about WFB and it's pretty chock full of good information:


I will try and pluck some information from the dark forgotten corners of my brain .... memory is shot to pieces. ...so some of this may be complete bobbins ... and well out of date but I seem to remember Fantasy being in the 20 something %'s (this is a few years ago ... it may well have fallen below 20% now ... I have heard it is not doing so well).
I seem to remember the biggest fantasy army (can't remember if it was Empire or Orcs and Goblins) was making about 5% (Maybe even 7%)
The smallest fatasy army was making as little as 1%
Now when you consider they make over 10 Million in profit it still seems 1% of that is still worth having ... except when the plastic moulds cost as much as they do it is hard to make much profit out of a wood elf mould. Where as a space marine mould ... will make twenty times as much from the same costs.

makes it a bit easier to understand the release schedule?

EDIT: I heard they did experiments to try to discover if it was the price of the kits .... they released the Dark Elf Cold One Knights and the Chaos Knights at a lower price point to see if everyone bought twice as many as is so often stated ... They didn't. The same people bought exactly the same number of boxes as they do at the higher price point.
(I am not saying this is what happened ... or that they concluded they might as well continue to charge more for their kits to make a greater return ... I am just saying that is what I heard).

About shelving 9th edition ... I did hear that they had discussed shelving fantasy FULL STOP! (Not sure how long that discussion was but that's what I heard).
I heard they discussed loosing some of the least popular armies.
I heard they discussed condensing the army books into less volumes. (So the less popular armies could survive).
I heard one Warhammer armies book ... I heard two books?
I have no idea where the dust settled on these discussions except that they decided to do something .... and that it would have to be radical.

As far as I know I am the only person to have predicted 2014 for 9th edition ... because I assumed it must be around the corner based on the timescales I usually hear stuff. But hastings posted almost immediately to say he had heard it was 2015
I always assume he is correct and I am incorrect ... (hastings =Jedi Master Harry=Young apprentice).
I don't think 9th edition has been pushed back or shelved. I think when I posted to say it was coming in 2014 ... I was wrong.

In defence of this guy:

Quote Originally Posted by MiyamatoMusashi

So... there is never any source other than official GW statements which is not "speculation"?

Every rumour, ever, has been speculation and nothing more?

The beancounters at GW are deeply dissatisfied with the money WHF makes. That's not in their official annual report. But it's not speculation either. Whether you choose to believe it is up to you. But I'm not speculating that that's the case, I know it to be the case. Doubt me if you like, call me a liar if you feel so inclined, but even if you conclude I must be merely speculating, at least accept the possibility that SOMEONE may be in a position to hear things that don't appear in the annual statement.

There is a very basic difference between "speculation" and "unconfirmed" and "not from an official source". Was Hastings just speculating for all those years of consistently providing accurate information of what was coming? Or was he simply reporting what had not yet been officially announced?

Quote Originally Posted by pjklan

ok.
so, would you kindly share with us what you know about 9th edition?
thank you.

He heard pretty much the same things I did ... from completely different sources a few months after I did.
So that is two and a half years out (if 9th comes in summer 2015) ... making him well connected.
I first heard about all this in the June/July 2011
He did post about it at the time .... more than once ... but no one took any notice of him.

Quote Originally Posted by Tancred II von Quenelles

To sum up WFB 9th is hitting in 2015 with some unpredicted and radical changes - am I correct?

That is about the size of it.
My understanding was they were scraping everything and starting again. So pretty difficult to predict what the changes might be.
Having said that we have heard about radical changes before the last several, slightly tweaked, editions.
So don't hold your breath.

[angrybear]

Thanks for sharing, an interesting read. Curious to see where GW takes warhammer fantasy.

[spaceman91]

Sounds 'interesting'

[Chronowraith]

always interesting to see what harry and hastings have to say. I'm a little disappointed to hear that Fantasy is doing so bad. I've always wondered if this was due to marketing or perceived ease of entry for 40k.

I really don't like the idea of army "compendiums" but I'll give anything Fantasy a shot at least once.

Glad to hear that GW has another year most likely to come out with the remaining 8th edition books before 9th edition hits. I'd love to add a hardback Skaven book to my pile.

[Bigred]

With a 9th Edition now slated for 2015, and only 5 army books left for WFB - it wouldn't surprise me if they are intending to wrap up the full 8th edition hardback set of army books before they "take the plunge" into 9th Edition and whatever it will hold for the game.

It kind of sounds like 8th and its hardcover army books may be the last "grand edition" of the game before they embark on whatever measures they need to let the game survive with a smaller footprint moving forward compared to the 40K juggernaut.

Which worries me greatly. I can't think of the last time a game that was so big shrank over time since Battletech, which dominated gaming in the 80s then fell to nothing.

[MMM]

...

[eldargal]

Seems like 8th edition was a very large nail in the WHFB coffin.

Sad to see my entry point of the tabletophobby vanishes within a few years.

Shame on you GW!
We don't know that, 8th was a drastic revamp because 7th failed, we don't have enough information to say whether 8th is doing worse or just isn't doing as well as GW want.

[Wildeybeast]

All is is assuming that the bean counters have direct control over what they design team do. Whilst there will obviously be some accountability, they are controlling everything they do. The guys in the studio love Warhammer and would fight tooth and nail for it. I don't see them allowing it to be reduced or sidelined and I'm not sure they can risk massive changes as they simply don't know how they will go down. Harry specifically says that it is making money, just not as much has they would like. I'm. I don't think We have anything to worry about for the future of Warhammer. After all, if they are still flogging The Lord of the rings horse, Warhammer still has plenty of life left in it.

[MMM]

...

[eldargal]

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

[MMM]

...

[eldargal]

Anecdotal evidence is still anecdotal, you don't have a national trend, you have anecdotal evidence from a few sources. Stop making it out to be something it isn't. The only people who know how WFB is going in Germany with any degree of accuracy is GW.

[Mr Mystery]

Indeed. Plural of anecdote is not data, nor is it fact, or even an established trend.

Warhammer round my way is predominantly a club game.

[spaceman91]

Near me It goes in waves. We will have months of nothing but fantasy then they will all take a break and play nothing but 40k. I think its something about tournaments.

[Bigred]

There was a 1 week window in the middle of the Chapterhouse case when the data Eldargal seeks was available.

GW accidentally submitted a giant PDF of sales figures for a 2 year period (roughly 2010) for GW North America broken down by individual product SKU.

The court quickly removed the document several days later, but I got to take a look inside. (I'm still kicking myself for not downloading it).

The ratio of 40K to WFB sales from Black Library were over 5:1 in favor of 40K. The average GW Proper plastic kits ratios were 3:1, to 2:1 in favor of 40k, all up and down the list. Sources have indicated the trends continue to this day and GW has not turned it around.

Like Harry said, its not really an issue regarding existing products, as the investment is already sunk. Its the company needing to find a solution moving forward.

In any business from cars to software, if you sell 2 main product lines and one generates triple the revenue of the other, the smaller one just can't get half of the resources. In publicly traded companies, executives get fired for doing stuff like that.

So I don't think Fantasy is going anywhere. It has 15 armies, thousands of products and generates millions, but it can't continue to be developed and recieve development resources like it has been in the past. It's sales don't warrant it. In a way, I think the shift has already begun. Think about all these new crazy 2013 products from the Dataslates, to Forgeworld, to rules expansions, to supplemental codices. WFB is hardly getting any of these - they are predominantly 40K.

The Dark Millennia is already getting more of the development pie...

[Denzark]

I like what BR says about product lines getting proportionate amounts of resource. I wonder if a continued reason for WFB is that GW has some market research that states WFB players are like the uber spenders/gamers - ones who have been pulled through from the youth section (40K) to the senior section? Sort of like a junky who has gone from a bit of ganja to the Horse. Once they are hooked on WFB, they drop a load on 40K - but if you stopped doing WFB said gamers would stop altogether.

So what I mean from a business sense is that the resource taken to run WFB may be disproportionate but in return it locks in a huge amount of income for the primary - which wouldn't be there if the secondary wasn't?

Or summat I am thinking about my first beer of the day.

[Wildeybeast]

But if we work on the logic that 40k sells twice as much so gets twice as much resources devoted to it, Warhammer will die. Halving the amount of time and money spent developing it will leave it in a parlous state. They already have uncompetitive armies left languishing in the doldrums, how much worse wil that situation get if they cut the funding. What you do with your weaker line is a) invest more money into it, b) pull it completely if it isn't making money or c) get it to a stage where it just ticks along nicely. Now if they got all the armies to a stage where they all balanced and everything is plastic, it means they don't need to spend as much time and effort when an update rolls around. A new book, a couple of new units, job done. Then you can release as many 40k expansions and special edition codexes as you like.

[Mr Mystery]

I'd argue Warhammer needs less development.

The system itself is solid, and the armies all well fleshed out.

The rules themselves don't have the scenario flexibility of 40k, but then it doesn't need it if you ask me!

[Wildeybeast]

I would agree. Though it still needs some time and effort to bring all the armies up to scratch in terms of rules and models.

[Chronowraith]

As far as the Black Library sales figures that Big Red posted... that doesn't shock me one bit. The 40k Range is vast and caters to multiple interests, armies, settings, etc. Comparatively the WFB novels cover a relatively small number of interests, armies, etc. I'm a pretty hardcore WFB fan who recently cut 40k due to time constraints... but I've always found the WFB novels to be lacking compared to the 40k versions.

I'd be okay with Fantasy seeing a little less attention as long as GW keeps up the pace of releases to what they have recently. In many ways, GW is at fault for the poor performance of several of the armies. How many years have we heard rumors of an impending Bretonnian release? They started back in 7th edition. Who wants to invest in an army with a potential new army book coming out. Additionally, I don't think they can keep Fantasy a static setting like 40k. 40k has enough interesting background that people enjoy reading and could make up entire expansions (Horus Heresy is the prime example). While Fantasy has equally important events that happened in the distant past, they simply aren't as relatable as the corrupting influence of power and the betrayal of ones brothers.

[Mr Mystery]

Funny you should mention static settings....

Sigmar's Blood is new background....progressive background....can I say more? Spoilers!

[Baneblade]

The shop where I go there is actually a 50/50 split between 40 and WFB, as well as a strong LOTR/Hobbit community.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

As a player of all 3 (and having working in GW stores for several years) I'd say 40k is clearly the "big show" in the GW range, but that doesn't mean the others are too bad off. And WFB has been 2nd fiddle since before 6th edition, let alone 8th.

[Wildeybeast]

I guess the key question we should consider is why 40k sells so much more. After all, that is what the design team will be asking themselves. I think we can rule out the models as they are just as good in Warhammer. Is it as simple as fantasy setting vs sci fi one? Swords vs guns? Or is it something abut the rules mechanics? Given that 40k is bringing in more psychology, different weapon profiles, flyers, terrain rules, psychic spells and so on, I think we can rule out the idea that fantasy is more 'difficult' to get to grips with. The only significant difference I can see rules wise is ranked up models and movement and I don't see what they can do to change that without getting rid of it, which they won't do as it's one of the hallmarks of fantasy.
What do you lot think is the issue? What do they have to address in 9th edition to close the sales gap.

[eldargal]

The ratio of 40K to WFB sales from Black Library were over 5:1 in favor of 40K. The average GW Proper plastic kits ratios were 3:1, to 2:1 in favor of 40k, all up and down the list. Sources have indicated the trends continue to this day and GW has not turned it around.

The WFB section is also one fifth the size of the BL 40k section of Black Library, funny coincidence.;) As to the plastic kits those figures make sense, but blaming 8th as a ruleset doesn't. GW say themselves most of their customers are collectors and friendly gamers and in my own anecdotal experience the thing that puts people of WFB isn't the rules or even the expense but how damned horrid a lot of the older plastic kits are. The plastic core for most of the armies is poor to average for most armies, bar those that have been recently updated like the new Dark Elf warriors.

While I agree WFB can't get an unjustified amount of resources it is also true that WFB has been comparatively neglected, it was really only with 8th edition that it started to see larger, better plastic kits appear for every army. So that in itself can be a self fulfilling thing, GW put less money in, sales declined in favour of 40k where hte kits were fancier, WFB made less money, got less resources, etc.

[Denzark]

Self licking lollipop...

[Kaptain Badrukk]

As someone who ran THOUSANDS of intro games over 5 years I'll tell you this for nothing, the majority of people who bought toys went and bought 40k.
50% of them did it because the non-staff person (of all ages) who introduced them did so via 40k, they then logically bought 40k to play their friend.
The other 50% just preferred sci-fi to fantasy.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

40k is simply more accessible to most.

Warhammer I tend to find comes later in people's hobby. But once tasted it quickly becomes an obsession!

I'm partaking in Sigmar's Blood with my local manager (also former bossman). With any luck we'll pique interest in the game with the narrative army collecting it promotes!

[NockerGeek]

It doesn't help that the cost of entry for WFB is so much higher, just because of the model count involved. With most WFB games being in the 2000-2500 point range, and the game favoring large blocks of troops, even "elite" armies like High Elves require tons of models. I've tried getting into it with an IOB box, a Battalion box (the older pre-8th edition box), some Dragon Princes, and a couple of characters, and I'm still barely hitting 1500. Thank goodness I didn't try to go for Skaven - I love the army, but the investment involved in cash and time to buy, build, and paint them would be soulcrushing and wallet-emptying for a new player.

40K actually has armies that can run on smaller model counts, and while it does have horde armies, you can choose not to play one (or even play a non-horde variant, like Nidzilla or Veteran IG). I have fewer infantry models in my 1850 Black Templars army than in some single units in Fantasy. There's also little to no support for smaller games of Fantasy - 40K has Kill Team and Combat Patrol and can work in smaller point increments, while it seems like WFB just... doesn't, especially with the point percentages. As a result, there's no good way to pick up WFB casually or in small increments. That also makes it hard to push as a secondary game for people, compared to the skirmish games that have popped up everywhere in increasing rates. One just can't dabble in WFB. (By the way, anyone want to buy a mostly-unassembled High Elf army?)

[Ben_S]

I have fewer infantry models in my 1850 Black Templars army than in some single units in Fantasy. There's also little to no support for smaller games of Fantasy - 40K has Kill Team and Combat Patrol and can work in smaller point increments, while it seems like WFB just... doesn't, especially with the point percentages.

You make good points but on these two:

1) A lot of 40k armies rely on dedicated transports, so you may need a Rhino etc for every ten men. (The arrival of 6th edition practically killed my Dark Eldar because the WWP got nerfed and I didn't want to buy, assemble, paint, then transport a fleet of Raiders/Venoms, which would have cost more (£) than their contents.) Personally, I'd much rather have 20 infantry than ten infantry + transport.

2) Mordheim? Yes, it's not Warhammer, but Kill Team isn't exactly 40k either (despite being more similar). Moreover, just because you can play small games of 40k (like 500 points) doesn't mean it's balanced at those levels, any more than Fantasy at 1,000. Both games, in so far as they are balanced, are designed for larger games.

[Bigred]

Eldargal said:


While I agree WFB can't get an unjustified amount of resources it is also true that WFB has been comparatively neglected, it was really only with 8th edition that it started to see larger, better plastic kits appear for every army. So that in itself can be a self fulfilling thing, GW put less money in, sales declined in favour of 40k where hte kits were fancier, WFB made less money, got less resources, etc.

I agree - its a self reinforcing cycle once you start to pull revenue out and the spiral only gets steeper.

As you said, I love Fantasy's kits, and aesthetic. I dont think you can heap the blame wholly on the 8th edition rules. I do think however that the rules as a whole (across all the editions) have a lot of blame to bear.

I would say that compared to many other games out there, WFB has not adapted to modern playstyles and rules conventions as much as others have. It is still overall a very complex set of rule-mechanics with a very high barrier to entry (maybe the highest of any mainstream wargame) for new players. It still plays very much like it did in the distant past with minor updates. It "feels" like a wargame from the 90s.

Fantasy doesn't offer an easy way into the game for small point sizes, and the initial investment in time and money is very, very high. I have personally witnessed multiple customers at a game store, pick up the intro box, talk to a game store staff about what it will take to build a full army, then run the numbers and put the box back and go with another system (usually 40K or Warmachine).

I think the game desperately needs a skirmish sized rules counterpart, so you can get folks up and running with smaller-scaled fantasy "scouting-picket forces engagements". This would let new players ease into the game faster before moving up to the "big show".

[Mr Mystery]

Which is what Sigmar's Blood kind of offers.

Each Scenario features additional forces.

First one is battalion sized, albeit with a Witch Hunter added for The Empire.

Next up? Few additions and tweaked rules.

Could be as wider strategy :)

[Wildeybeast]

BR, how is it more complicated than 40k? Movement and ranked up units is the only major thing that strikes me. The scenery has just as many rules, combat and shooting likewise. Both have magic, both have psychology. Both have plenty of very different unit types to get to grip with.

I think what you and previous posters have said highlights one of the key problems. Misconceptions. It isn't more complicated. You don't need more models. It does work perfectly well at low points values. Most gamers are not unfriendly old neck beards who scowl on the younger 40k gamers. I'm not getting at anyone who has said these things, but they are the things I hear all the time and I bet it puts a lot of people off trying it.

[Bigred]

Movement is still quite messy with all the formations and such compared to the skirmish style games.

Combat resolution and that kind of thing is somewhat offputting to newcomers as well.

I also disagree that WFB takes no more models to play than Fantasy. On average I'd say a WFB army has 50-100% more models than an average sized 40K or Warmachine army. Sure, a player can minimize modelcount with more monsters and less rank and file, but then why are they playing WFB in the first place?

Note that I'm not in any way saying that WFB is a bad game ( I proudly own 2 armies) - I'm just saying it is it's own thing - and that thing is staying still while what the general wargaming industry is cranking out at the moment is slowly drifting away from it.

If you look at things like 40K, Warmachine, DUST, Malifaux heck even some FoW armies, you can buy a boxed game, paint up a couple dozen models and be playing. Success stories like X-Wing and DUST (to a lesser extent) are bringing back pre-assembled, "optional painting" figures as well.

So when you look at that and then look at what it will take a new player with no experience to build a fieldable WFB army - its a somewhat different proposition.

I think that for existing players, WFB is solid. It's picking up new players that is it's hill to climb.

[NockerGeek]

You make good points but on these two:

1) A lot of 40k armies rely on dedicated transports, so you may need a Rhino etc for every ten men. (The arrival of 6th edition practically killed my Dark Eldar because the WWP got nerfed and I didn't want to buy, assemble, paint, then transport a fleet of Raiders/Venoms, which would have cost more (£) than their contents.) Personally, I'd much rather have 20 infantry than ten infantry + transport.

That's a personal preference, though. Doesn't really address the issue of "Fantasy generally uses more models than 40K".


2) Mordheim? Yes, it's not Warhammer, but Kill Team isn't exactly 40k either (despite being more similar). Moreover, just because you can play small games of 40k (like 500 points) doesn't mean it's balanced at those levels, any more than Fantasy at 1,000. Both games, in so far as they are balanced, are designed for larger games.

You assume that 40K is balanced at any game size. :) Seriously, though, 40K is a lot easier to build for and run at smaller point sizes, and partially that's due to the lack of minimum/maximum percentages for unit types. For example, the High Elf Prince on Griffon in IoB was not technically legal for the size of the army that's included in IoB. I think you might be able to make him a Noble on a Griffon now, but it still doesn't make him remotely workable for smaller games.

[Deadlift]

That's a personal preference, though. Doesn't really address the issue of "Fantasy generally uses more models than 40K".


This is the exact reason I've been reluctant to really get into Fantasy, it's not just the cost because of all that extra plastic, but I also don't want to commit to having to paint so many models just to get a playable army. It's a real turn off.

[Mr Mystery]

Warhammer is about the restricted movement. It's an intrinsic part of the game. So much so that if you monkey with it, or remove it, it just wouldn't be Warhammer anymore.

And as for being outsold by 40k, it's been that way for a long, long time. Nothing can really change that. Sci-Fi (or more correctly, Science Fantasy) just has a wider appeal in general.

As long as the game remains profitable (and I don't think we have anything to the contrary) it won't be going anywhere.

EG brought up a good point though, that the model range hasn't kept pace with 40k for a while but that is beginning to change. As each army is redone, spangly new big kits, which are usually points intensive are being created. And each one has so far only added to the Fantasy setting.

There is no other game out there at present which even comes close to Warhammer as a fantasy battle game. Sure, Kings of War is making a good attempt, but it's just variation on a theme. The models are cheaper, but it's clearly just a Warhammer clone in feel. Nothing wrong with that either as Warhammer is hardly an entirely original work, what fantasy setting is? It's just for me I'd rather just stick with Warhammer, for which I already own three armies and have enjoyed for the best part of 18 years.

Black Library? The output isn't what we might want, but what is there is top notch stuff. Time of Legends is simply awesome, and I'm particularly enjoying The Black Plague which is a less explored period of the Old World's history. Gotrek and Felix continue very nicely to boot. I'd love to see more stuff produced but clearly 40k stuff sells so much better for what is, let us not forget, a small independent publisher.

As for the 8th Ed rules? As already covered in my 'I love Fantasy, me' thread, 8th Ed is simply the best edition released so far. I know many dislike the random charge range, but it suits a tactical wargame nicely, and prevents the inevitable stand off seen in previous editions where neither side wants to fully commit, just in case. And rather than removing tactics it has added decisions that need to be made. Do you risk a long range charge, knowing your opponent might just risk it next turn, or play it safe, and hope your opponent closes the range? Fighting in multiple ranks, and Horde formation has opened the game up, removing the previous dominance of Elite armies who would simply run in MSU, and panel your front rank leaving nobody to fight back. Steadfast has made combat so much more of a risk. No more single hammer blow from a small unit. That's not as reliable as it was. Now, you need to weigh up the possible outcomes and plan accordingly. 8th Ed has done away with the old 'sure thing' tactics!

As for Monsters? Nicely killy now. Interwebular 'wisdom' would have us believe they're all cack on account of being somewhat prone to cannonball/face interface failures. Despite that having been a thorn in their side since...ooh...let me think......oh yeah. Since the game itself was conceived.

Magic? Mega-boom-boom-kill-spells are massively overstated. Random availability of power dice mean it's hardly something you can count on, provided you've even rolled up the spell in the first place. The really, really nasty ones also have a ridiculously high casting value, meaning you're unlikely to be casting much else that turn. They also require a favourable casting position. And if you have enough dice to cast them, it's a fair bet that your opponent has a similarly healthy number of dispel dice to try and defuse it, not to mention the range of other magical defences available to armies. It can certainly be a game winner when it's all in your favour, but if that single spell is your entire battle plan, don't expect to be winning very many games off the back of it.

Sadly, the interwebtubes seem intent on rubbishing the game. The very vocal minority are heard over those quietly enjoying their game. And you can tell when they've lost a game because it's all hands to the whine-pump. After all, they can't possibly have lost to a better player. No. Clearly, they lost because the rules.

As for the points of games? 1,000 points gives you a decent if quick battle, and also only really requires a 4x4 board (any bigger and keep it to 6x4!).

In another self-repetition (sorry about those!), Sigmar's Blood shows a positive step forward. At no point does it mention points values, or army selection restrictions. Instead, it presents you with Scrolls of Battle. These list the various forces available to you for each scenario. Some are single Scroll affairs, others multiple ones. Being set scenarios it keeps things nicely balanced outside the normal limits. I'd like to see a lot more of this, as it adds variety to the game, without changing the game which is quite an achievement!

[Karath]

My feel for WFB (after being out of things for a while) is it lost any internal support/interest within GW long ago; the discussion that starts this thread is simply evidence that someone has finally realised that fact and that something needs to be done. For some reason the only way for anyone internal of the company to be interested again is to do something drastic despite continued love and interest in the game from the player base as it is currently.

[AdamHarry]

As for Monsters? Nicely killy now. Interwebular 'wisdom' would have us believe they're all cack on account of being somewhat prone to cannonball/face interface failures. Despite that having been a thorn in their side since...ooh...let me think......oh yeah. Since the game itself was conceived.

While I do think monsters are nice a killy now, I still think that mindset is the biggest issue for turning off new players AND selling kits. GW invested a lot of money into producing the cool big kits - at least 1 per army - and yet, they aren't flying off the shelf. Why? Because a cannonball or two will wreck your day.

For the older players (ie, players who already have everything from previous editions) they have no desire to purchase those big kits either because they get killed too quickly. They would much rather purchase a few more infantry models to fill in points vs buy a lone big kit that will just die.

New players are being told NOT to buy the big kits because they get dropped too quickly. So they are forced into other Big-block units. Those units are a chore to paint. A new player quickly loses steam and doesn't finish painting/collecting because it's just a daunting task.

If they are working on a 9th edition, they really need to look into tweaking Cannon rules. Have LOS restrictions or blocking terrain or SOMETHING to make the "Cool big kits" worth taking (other than they look cool). I'm not asking for a nerf, but asking for a fix to make movement/deployment a viable counter to getting shot in the face from a cannon-ball/bolt thrower. Cannons should be dangerous - but not iWin buttons vs monsters.

As for the magic blowing stuff up - it's not as bad as most people think - but magic can overpower people's armies really quickly if they aren't prepared. and that's also bad for a new player who just doesn't know these things.

[Mr Mystery]

They're not even remotely iWin against Monsters. You have as much chance of misfiring as you do knocking all 6 wounds off a Dragon in a single shot.

Regular monster users like myself scoff in the face of Cannons! We're fast. We're surprisingly small targets for cannon bouncing, and it's relatively uncommon to lose your beasty to a single shot. I can reliably make combat in the second turn.

This has ever been the way. It's nothing new.

[AdamHarry]

They're not even remotely iWin against Monsters. You have as much chance of misfiring as you do knocking all 6 wounds off a Dragon in a single shot.

Regular monster users like myself scoff in the face of Cannons! We're fast. We're surprisingly small targets for cannon bouncing, and it's relatively uncommon to lose your beasty to a single shot. I can reliably make combat in the second turn.

This has ever been the way. It's nothing new.

I've never played against an army that only had 1 cannon because of that very reason. Typically it's 2 or 3 cannons, bolt throwers or warp lightning cannons. :(

[Chronowraith]

I've never played against an army that only had 1 cannon because of that very reason. Typically it's 2 or 3 cannons, bolt throwers or warp lightning cannons. :(

I regularly run a Skyre Skaven list with 2 Warp-Lightning Cannons... and I regularly lose to the standard WoC net-list that contains two Chimeras and a Flying Daemon Prince. Why? Because I can't kill his monsters fast enough

Cannons are not auto-win buttons versus monsters. They were when 8th edition landed purely because monsters were less frequent and usually overpriced since in 7th edition they broke ranks. More recent armybooks the monsters are pretty affordable and thus players can easily take multiples in armies.

How many models an army has is dictated by two factors: Army tactics and player choice. Certain armies require boatloads of models (Skaven, Goblins, etc). There is nothing you you can do with those armies. In order to have effective and usable armies you will have a lot of models on the table. Player choice comes into effect with other armies though. Don't want hordes of infantry in your WoC, HE/DE, etc? Then take monsters, chariots, characters, etc. instead. In most armies... it works fine.

[Overdose]

Chimaeras are a bit different though, as they have a good regen save. Most monsters ride on purely armor, which make them drop like rocks.

Which is why we see the monster mash in the WoC netlist, but really nowhere else.

[Uberbeast]

8th edition fantasy is a fail for many reasons. The fact that they made sweeping changes in the rules and focus of the game can be blamed to varying degrees depending on your taste, so I won't labor the point. I know that I was willing to deal with the problems in 7th edition because I liked the core rules, and that I quit 8th because I hated the rules. As a longtime fantasy player I had the impression that GW decided that retaining customers who were generally happy with a few tweaks was not as good as scratching the entire thing for a superficially similar product that they hoped would be more universally appealing. The end result cost them a large portion of their loyal customers while failing to pay off with the predicted influx of new customers.

[xNickBaranx]

I find this whole turn of events fascinating.

When discussing the psychology of the consumer choosing between 40K and WFB, 40K just has way more flair and it will consistently out perform WFB as a result regardless of screams of "If they just updated X army!" Though 12 year old boys can swoon over both knights and space marines, the "action" of 40K is more perceptible. Running demos side by side in the early 2000's, yeah, some kids were attracted to the WFB demo, with the Empire Mortar dropping a large blast on the rampaging Orcs, but when we threw a Razorback (or even the 3rd Ed Landspeeder) on the table with the Space Marines, even though there were only 10 of them on the board, most kids wanted to try 40K. Up until the last few years when the WFB big kits came along, they impressed me with how gorgeous they are, they were introduced at the same time GW introduced flyers, and there were already Baneblades and Stompas. WFB psychologically doesn't have that dynamic presentation because it is much more limited. This is just me wish listing, but if GW tried releasing naval vessels and used the WFB skirmish rules and armies for the game you might have something big and sexy enough on the table for people to go "WHOAHHHHH! That's AWESOME!" But that's a big risk. But that's honestly what they're up against. The psychology of the consumer and the visual presentation of each game. 40K will win more hearts as it stands based on presentation alone. And kits like the Skullvane Manse may call attention to the table, but some of these WFB terrain kits seem to get more in the way than help the game.

I agree with everyone that has stated that the movement rules (and combat resolution!) are what makes WFB, WFB. At least in my mind. The "I do all my stuff for 20 minutes, and you do all of your stuff for 20 minutes" system for both 40K and WFB seem dated in a way now, but that also can stem from some of us playing these systems for almost 20 years now in one way or another. Regardless, that's not one of the barriers to getting involved. The classic GW demo that we were taught to perform in a Fast, Fun, and Furious manner was the same either way. When 5th or 6th Edition WFB came out - the box set with Empire and Orcs (and the aforementioned Empire Mortar!) I enjoyed running the WFB demo more, but that didn't turn sales upside down. We still sold 10 Tactical Squads per week, and 1 or 2 each of any other core Infantry/Troop and the 40K Boxed Game always outsold WFB.

I haven't worked for GW in over 10 years, but I have worked in game stores on and off since then, and I'm doing that again now. The store I work at has a small but dedicated WFB crowd that seem more consistent and stable than our 40K crowd. I haven't read the 8th Edition rule book in all honesty, the last edition I bought was 7th, but what I'm wondering is how the game mushroomed up to 2400 points as being the standard? Is that what is suggested in the BRB? Or did that convention come from somewhere else? All I know is that simply lowering that points limit reduces that entry barrier BigRed was talking about. That barrier is a big problem honestly. Though it still doesn't solve the "flair problem" I mentioned above. That's the biggest obstacle in my opinion.

Also, it should be noted that when I worked for GW, the upper management all considered WFB to be the more "adult"/"sophisticated"/"stategic" game of the two. I doubt that has changed too much. Love for WFB runs deep within the company. I find it hard to believe they won't find a way to preserve its place.

[Lord-Boofhead]

My understanding was they were scraping everything and starting again. So pretty difficult to predict what the changes might be.

Not this old and deeply stupid Chestnut again?

I'll tell exactly whats in 9th ed, exactly what was missing from 8th ed that was in 40K 6th ed....

Fortifications and Allies. and if that isn't it I'll eat my Blast Templates....

[Lord-Boofhead]

...what I'm wondering is how the game mushroomed up to 2400 points as being the standard? Is that what is suggested in the BRB? Or did that convention come from somewhere else? All I know is that simply lowering that points limit reduces that entry barrier BigRed was talking about. That barrier is a big problem honestly. Though it still doesn't solve the "flair problem" I mentioned above. That's the biggest obstacle in my opinion.

Yep and to fix this they need to bring Back Skirmish and/or Mordheim. Also Pimping Border Patrol (400 - 800 points) as a game is another good idea.

Its the WAACer and other competitive freaks who treat all casual games as practice for a tourny that are insisting on 2400 all the time and are the ones driving away new players.

GW has worked this out for 40K and has been pimping the hell out of Kill Team. Lets hope they move on to WFB next...

[Lord-Boofhead]

I think the game desperately needs a skirmish sized rules counterpart, so you can get folks up and running with smaller-scaled fantasy "scouting-picket forces engagements". This would let new players ease into the game faster before moving up to the "big show".

It had it and I don't mean Mordheim (which I love and many a FLGS is using as a starting point for new players) but for some weird reason the Warhamer Skirmish Book was only sold in the US.

On a related note if anyone has one they want to sell....

[xNickBaranx]

It had it and I don't mean Mordheim (which I love and many a FLGS is using as a starting point for new players) but for some weird reason the Warhamer Skirmish Book was only sold in the US.

On a related note if anyone has one they want to sell....

The reason why Mordheim and other skirmish games were largely phased out was that many GW players chose to stick to the skirmish level exclusively and not grow their collections. GW was always trying to find ways to get people to buy more models - not less. The argument that Mordheim and Necromunda players own multiple gangs, though true, still only results in what? $150-$200 across 3 gangs? Whereas a standard 40K or Fantasy army will be twice that. An Apocalypse army would be 10x that. If you were GW which would you encourage?

The new Kill Team digibook surprised me for sure, but the only reason I can see GW journeying fully back into the skirmish realm would be to subjugate the competition.


8th edition fantasy is a fail for many reasons. The fact that they made sweeping changes in the rules and focus of the game can be blamed to varying degrees depending on your taste, so I won't labor the point. I know that I was willing to deal with the problems in 7th edition because I liked the core rules, and that I quit 8th because I hated the rules. As a longtime fantasy player I had the impression that GW decided that retaining customers who were generally happy with a few tweaks was not as good as scratching the entire thing for a superficially similar product that they hoped would be more universally appealing. The end result cost them a large portion of their loyal customers while failing to pay off with the predicted influx of new customers.

I've played 8th Edition a few times, and though I couldn't tell you how 8th Edition dramatically differed from 7th or any other Edition I can tell you that as someone who's played on and off since 4th Edition, my experience wasn't "oh my god they ruined the game!" The 3 games I played at Adepticon 2 years ago were actually really enjoyable and didn't feel that different than any other edition I've played, which at this point are all muddled in my head rules-wise.

[Theblackprince]

I think the "problem" has more to do with the way the "average" gamer thinks and plays. Most miniatures gamers that I have meet play some sort of video games. If you look at the popular games out there right now most are first person shooters. This conditions players to think in terms of single persons or small squads. That is what 40k is about. Several groups of 10 or so fighting each other. Players don't think in terms of units and ranks much so fantasy is not as "comfortable" to a newer player.

[Wildeybeast]

But if you flip that on its head, everyone who plays RTS games (and that is a good number of gamers) would lean towards Warhammer.

[Theblackprince]

I can only speak for my local gaming group in that but for the most part that is correct. Our fantasy numbers have exploded since 8th edition came out and we all tried it. We went from only two of us having an army to 15 or so. Once they started playing it they found it was more enjoyable and way more " strategic". The average person starting up however sees it differently.

[Uberbeast]

I can only speak for my local gaming group in that but for the most part that is correct. Our fantasy numbers have exploded since 8th edition came out and we all tried it. We went from only two of us having an army to 15 or so. Once they started playing it they found it was more enjoyable and way more " strategic". The average person starting up however sees it differently.

It seems that your experience is not typical. Everyone in my area was very enthusiastic about 8th edition, we had a large and long standing group going between several stores. Most of those players including myself have shelved their fantasy armies after discovering that the cha
nges actually made the game into a giant model slamfest where random gimmicky rules and obvious push for monetary gain at the expense of actual support made for an altogether hollow experience. I think a lot of fantasy players are waiting this edition out, hoping for something better to come along. If the next edition doesn't pan out, then I have a lot of fantasy stuff to unload.

[Mr Mystery]

One issue about the strategy involved...

I wouldn't say it's any more or less strategic than other games. It's just different.

But, the main difference is that player competence tends to matter more than army list. In 40k, it's easy to follow just how I beat your army. In Warhammer? I've managed to manoeuvre large blocks of infantry, baiting, switching, picking fights and stacking the odds in my favour as much as possible.

That's daunting. It's like watching a ballet at times when two really good players get stuck in. Tactical reforms, sacrificing a unit to pull your opponents force out of line, then crushing his main unit with a multiple charge.

[Wildeybeast]

Exactly. The thing that makes Warhammer so good, and different, is movement. Trouble is, that's probably the thing that is hardest to get to grips with and what puts people off the most. Premeasuring makes it easier an it was, but it is still tricky and is a vital part of any victory. I don't really see what they can do to change it.

[Mr Mystery]

I don't think they should do anything. It would be like low cal, alcohol-free beer to wash down a vegetarian haggis.

Fantasy theme skirmish games are relatively plentiful. But ranked combat games which are not historical, less so. Warhammer is Warhammer. No need to change that up. And if they do, I will cry.

Though I can highly (and genuinely highly) recommend War Of The Ring as a sort of briding game. You still move as a unit, but it's quite as finnickity as Warhammer. Plus, an army for that is pretty dashed cheap. Pick up the War of the Ring book, and BOOM. All the rules you'll ever need. Couple of blisters, three or four boxes and you've got a respectable army and all....

[Baneblade]

The one thing I would love to be included in future editions of 40k and WFB is the LOTR/WOTR priority system. For those who do not know it works like this. At the start of the turn both players rolls a die. Whoever rolls highest goes first in the turn, and the event of a tie the person who did not have priority in the previous turn goes first. The player with priority makes his moves/charges then the other player goes. Then the next phase whether it is shooting or magic. Combat is still the same but the person with priority chooses the order of the combats which is key for things like sweeping, consolidations or overruns. What makes it great is that it reduces the time where one player is waiting, occasionally making save rolls or for combat. Also it introduces a greater element of tactical thinking. A greater degree of caution or risk is introduced. No longer the idea of being protected by combat can be relied on, since the order of players can change turn to turn. You may actually hope to kill your way out of combat and have a chance for a second charge before the other player can react. It also creates a more fluid and interactive turn without the long drawn out time where one player is stuck waiting for his turn.

[Bigred]

We had gotten word from GW staff years back that War of the Ring was seen as a testbed for future WFB rules mechanics.

You can certainly see a lot of individual rule mechanics that could be plucked out to update some elements of the WFB system here and there.

It all depends on what parts of the WFB system you feel are the ones most in need of changing.

And THAT is where the real arguing begins. :)

[Mr Mystery]

WOTR could be ported to Warhammer, and I'd still largely enjoy it.

But I think less needs to be altered.

Magic and Psychology work nicely in Warhamer. The movement rules are better written (for instance, to go backwards, it's half movement, no marching now. Rather than 'About face for 1/4 movement, move half movement, about face for 1/4 movement, no marching allowed'. It works out exactly the same, but is less convoluted to explain and 'get'. Ditto side-shuffling.

Other than those bits, the game is really straight forward!

[Muninwing]

ideal form:

-3 or 4 books that encompass all the armies
-each book allows you to field a conglomerate army, or to go pure, with bonuses and play-style differences for each
-certain choices would need specific choices to unlock
-rules tweaked and releases for each army brought up to speed and power
-nerfbatting the heck out of the gamebreakers
-a smaller rulebook and some new focus on quality instead of quantity

seriously, i'd love to see "The Fight Against the Darkness" as a book that allowed for Lizardmen and High/Wood Elves and the humans (Brettonia, Empire), and Dwarves to all team up... but certain options would necessitate certain HQ choices, and others might take a penalty or give a bonus depending on the rest of army comp. at the same time, another book about "Hordes of Destruction" would give Ogres, Orcs, and Skaven a place to all ally in the same way. and "The Breaking Storm" would put Chaos back together (instead of the silly split they tried from the end of 7th onward) as well as adding in the Dark Elves. somewhere along the line, the TK can find a niche.

or, they could do "Old World" (HElves, DElves, Lizards, Tomb Kings), "New World Nations" (Dwarves, Welves, Empire, Bretts, Vamps), and "Forces of Desctruction (Ogres, Skaven, Orks, Daemons, Chaos, Beasts) and that'd cover pretty much everything.

as long as (a) my Beastmen aren't rendered useless (or more useless than they are now), and (b) they do something to revitalize a worthwhile-but-struggling game, i'm all for it. and if this consolidation doesn't work out, or if it does and brings in a horde of new blood, more changes can be made to make 10th ed happen instead of killing off the line.

[Wildeybeast]

Nope, won't happen. Quite aside from the nerd rage that would result at having your army diminished and combined with others, there is the price issue. If you combine 4 books into 1, GW has to charge £120 per book to make the same amount of money compared to those sold separately. People simply won't pay that, especially when they only want a quarter of the stuff in that book. I am absolutely certain that individual army books are here to stay.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

Plus, unlike Warmahordes where they pile everything together into a few books, Warhammer actually has a background setting, and needs to explain who is what, where, when and why within said background.

An amalgamated book would not achieve this very well.

[Bigred]

My thoughts are along these lines.

I think they intend to finish the hardcover sets off for every army. If 9th is arriving in 2015, the will have time to do the remaining few.

But then I wouldn't be surprised to see a new 9th edition that rolls out an updated rulebook, and a once per year Privateer Press style "expansion book" that every player has to buy. It would contain a slightly updated fluff story to keep the background going, and 1-2 units (say a single combo-kit, or a single character) for each faction. If you alternate each faction from year to year to either get the character, or the new kit it would accomplish a couple a few things:

1) Everyone gets a new unit/character annually
2) Everyone has to buy the new book
3) They reduce the footprint for Fantasy to @8 kits and @8 finecast models a year plus the single book (about 1/2 what it is now), while still keeping the game alive.

[Wildeybeast]

It's an interesting idea, but i don't see it. You can achieve the one to two new kits per year with the existing army book format, once you make sure everything is plastic. Then it's easy to do a quick background up date and a couple of new kits. The big problem has been that armies have been left to languish, both in terms of models and rules, and so they are always running to catch up. The empire army is the way everything should be; balanced book and everything is in plastic. Instead you have things like wood elves where the rules are terrible and half the army is still metal. Then you end up with a massive release like dark elves, just to try and get everything up to date, never mind new units and they don't even manage that (anyone for some harpies). Once they invest time and money into every army, then they can keep it ticking over using the existing format. After all, a new book for every army once every 2 years makes a lot more money than one combined book every year. I don't see how reducing the output for Warhammer increases sales and makes more money.

[Mr Mystery]

Sigmar's Blood offers a third way...

Rule book. Army book. These can, in theory, remain static for a good while.

Campaign Books help with a structured army development method for the gamer, and could be used to help sell if not entirely new units, then at least redone models.

[Wildeybeast]

It's a good way to boost sales for up to date armies mid-edition, but it shouldn't be used as any sort of stop gap instead of updates. Shiny new stuff is the best way to boost sales, the key is just making sure you don't do it too often.

[Solution9]

I'm sure many of you remember GW used to do the annual updates. I think the last book they put out was the 2005 Annual. GW stopped printing those books because it wasn't worth it any more. FAQ's became the thing. Supplement books like Campaign books will continue to be published but not annual updates. Well I don't see it that way at least.

[Wildeybeast]

If it's just rules clarifications and such like then I'd agree. If they are doing new rules/models then there is mileage in annual/2 year update. It just depends on the format. I only hope GW decide that they want to improve sales by investing money, rather than trying to save money by cutting back on Warhammer.

[Baneblade]

I'm sure many of you remember GW used to do the annual updates. I think the last book they put out was the 2005 Annual. GW stopped printing those books because it wasn't worth it any more. FAQ's became the thing. Supplement books like Campaign books will continue to be published but not annual updates. Well I don't see it that way at least.


Granted it is 40k, but the last Chapter Approved book IIRC was in 2003

[bfmusashi]

It's not about the absolute amount of money made, it's about scaling resources to match the amount made. That is the strongest argument for the one book update. Personally, I think it'd be difficult to pull off with so many different lines at one time. Again, the logic is to consolidation. I don't like it as they've done a fine job setting tone with (at least) the Skaven and High Elves books and I'd hate to see that disappear.
As to Warhammer having a background you 'need' to know I think that's incorrect. You don't need to know anything about Warhammer or Warmahorde's larger background to like a character. They get their page of text describing them and then you're done. Larger background from the army books and, in Warmahorde's case, the role playing game.

[quindia]

I am more of a lurker around here and I haven't played WFB in a very long time (I play 40k frequently). I dropped WFB waaaay back when GW changed the block formation rank bonus from four models to five models. I had FIVE WFB armies at the time all between 1500 and 2500 points. Twelve model elite units with +2 rank bonuses were viable units then. My sturdy twenty four model rank and file units went from six ranks to four. Eight model cavalry units became one rank. The prospect of adding models to twenty plus units was so distasteful, I simply kept playing the old edition with my friends who either owned armies similarly designed or used one of mine. Eventually I sold or gave everything away.

I like some of the changes in the last few editions, but not enough to get back in beyond buying the rule book and a couple of army books. I am more tempted by the Oldhammer movement these days. I am hoping 9th gets me excited about the game again, but I honestly don't know what GW needs to do for that.

[Solution9]

I am curious to know in which the context of these discussions GW is having about WHFB. We are hearing that GW is not happy with how much it's making. Are they talking about Fantasy as a whole or in a particular region? Does anyone know that answer?

[War Painter]

A consolidation could make our lives easier or harder, probably a case by case basis. I know the idea of books containing more than one army book in it was discussed, and that's great if you play the armies in that one book. I wouldn't want to have to buy a 3 books at 3 times the price of the three I'd normally get for the armies I play. Though I'll be honest, we probably would have seen a rise in some of the sales when LotR movies came about, and more with the Hobbit... except they made a game based on those properties to compete with Fantasy. I think we'd be seeing a much better return from Fantasy if LotR/Hobbit miniatures game didn't pop up.

Ultimately my love is always going to be Warhammer Fantasy. I don't mind expanding my armies. I have the beginnings of Vampire Counts, Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Beastmen and Empire all in my home and I'd love to play all of them. I just hope we don't see a continued downgrading and dismissal of Fantasy.

[Kevin48220]

I think Warpainter has really hit the nail on the head, in that GW has set up its own worst competition; itself. From a business standpoint, it makes sense to take advantage of the LOTR/Hobbit films and release the game line; it will sell, for sure. But, I hope they are not doing that and looking at the WFB numbers without keeping in mind that they are draining off possible WFB players and getting them into Hobbit and LOTR gaming.

It'll be interesting to see how the WFB numbers shift once the LOTR/Hobbit licenses are up. I don't know if there will be a migration from those systems to WFB, or if that will be a missed opportunity, if GW fails to find a way to bring players from the one to the other (by that, I mean those who play LOTR/Hobbit and not any other GW games).

[Wildeybeast]

My understanding was that GW always saw Middle Earth games as more than just a cash cow; they were intended to bring people into GW stores and act as a gateway drug to the GW systems. How much this has actually happened (especially given the strict contractual restrictions New Line insisted on to stop that happening) is unknown to anyone but GW and I doubt they know.

[Deadlift]

My understanding was that GW always saw Middle Earth games as more than just a cash cow; they were intended to bring people into GW stores and act as a gateway drug to the GW systems. How much this has actually happened (especially given the strict contractual restrictions New Line insisted on to stop that happening) is unknown to anyone but GW and I doubt they know.

This is exactly how I got back into the hobby in 2007. I walked into my local, bought a ton of LOTR dwarfs and rule books etc. Bought White Dwarf and within a month I had started 40k

[eldargal]

I know several people who got in via the same way, including several girls and women who went from LOTR books and films to LOTR miniature painting to playing games to WFB and 40k. It's only anecdotal but I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was a noticeable increase in WFB and 40k collectors from LOTR and perhaps from the Hobbit now too. But as Wildey said the only people who will have any idea is GW.

[War Painter]

I'm not going to say it didn't bridge over for some people, but I think it also prevented people from going into their other system, and more specifically fantasy. This isn't a cheap hobby, and many people hopping onto the LotR game probably didn't have the time or money to drop on something else, so for anyone in that situation the bridge didn't gap, and GW has been making it harder and harder to play multiple systems from their lines.

When I first walked into GW fantasy caught my eye, and this was before the LotR movies ever came out. I had just read the books and it certainly helped me sway my interest towards that game system and it has been my favorite ever since. When they finally made the game and the product was put out in the GW store guess what got diminished to make room? If you guessed Fantasy you are correct. 40k still had a whole half of the store, they still had all their specialty games on display (this was before Epic, Mordhiem and Dreadfleet stopped being carried in store) and Fantasy became a section roughly the same size at the LotR section, which was a real disappointment considering how much more there was in that range. I actually had to dig through blister back rows just to find different armies. Now with the specialty games gone Fantasy's section has opened back up, but I think the time to capitalize has kind of passed. As Deadlift said he got into 40k after LotR, not fantasy. I think that would be more likely just because of the extremely different setting and similar looking play style. Fantasy, IMHO, took a real hit from it. Now I can't say this is 100% accurate, just my impression from over a decade of loyalty to fantasy.

[Faultie]

I always saw the LOTR/Hobbit license more as a denial-purchase, the same way a film studio will buy up a bunch of scripts for similar movies to one it is making in order to thin out the competition. Even if it never made a ton of money from the license, it's enough that there isn't some competitor out there with a vibrant LOTR/Hobbit fantasy miniatures game to siphon away money.

Just my perception, though.

[Wildeybeast]

I have no doubt that was part of it. That it also made them a ton of money at the time (though I gather they were over-reliant on that and hit them hard when the bubble burst after the films) was also part of it, as was the idea it would act as a gateway game. Whatever, it was a good decision at the time. The issue now is whether the continued existence of the Middle Earth franchise is taking sales away from Warhammer or introducing more people to it. That sort of thing is impossible to quantify on raw sales figures and its one of the things GW could do with some market research on. But they don't do that.

[Bigred]

Harry's latest missive regarding WFB 9th 1-14-2014:


I am not saying Yes or No ... I am saying "I don't know".
All I know is they started into a 'ground up' re-write a couple of years ago.
Nothing was sacred. Not the timeline. Not the stat line. They started with a fresh page.
Anything could have changed ... Everything could have changed.
I have heard ... a few things since ... but not enough to say with any certainty what 9th edition will be.

And he's the guy who is the MOST reliable at these type of predictions.

[daboarder]

I;m waiting for 9th, 8th killed fantasy in our local area no one had the money to drop onto those god awful hordes.

I really hope nothing gets squated. love wood elves

[Mr Mystery]

Hordes aren't compulsory.

They're ace for horde armies and Ogres. Everyone else can function without :)

[Wildeybeast]

So, faeit is reporting that brets are being rolled into the empire and wood elves, tomb kings and beastmen are being discontinued. I snort in derision.

[War Painter]

The same rumor said all shops are shutting down in Germany. Its probably hogwash. Brettonians and wood elves supposedly are getting updates this year. Tomb kings have a nice range that are great just for conversion work. Beastmen I would love to see get a huge boost with some new chariots and more options, but they would probably be one of the easier armies to fold.