Pandora's box?

[spaceman91]

As the name says this is probably a bad idea but on gunna do it anyway.

Why do people not like/enjoy CSM?

I have a khorne army and I enjoy using it every now and then. I don't use turkeys or obliterators but still do reasonable well. So why the hate/rage for them?

[daboarder]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280190-official-chaos-codex-complaint-thread/

[War Painter]

It's not really that the book is horrible and doesn't have fun units in it. The big problem is that a small list of units gets the most consistent results. A lot of other units are undervalued and this sort of list building just seems to be not fun to play with our against for too long.

[SaveModifier]

Lots of people have a lot of fun with their Chaos Space Marines, you can make great themed lists and lots of fluffy choices, its just not super competitive in a tournament setting right at this moment, which is what most people who complain about 40K care about

[Popsical]

A lot of old sweats still want proper legions.
Due to FW and the HH series.... YOU HAVE NO CHANCE EVER AGAIN! Bwah ha ha ha aha ah!

No really the legions are done now, they wont do them again in 40k. Get over it.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

I'd say it's a mix of the above. With a few other asides thrown in.
Aside 1) The people who DO like something often aren't very vocal in this hobby, because liking something GW has done that the neck-bearded rage community who tell us what our hobby should be about is the best way to get immediately and irrationally attacked on any warhammer forum.
Aside 2) We expected a lot (I'm a CSM player, and my opinions on this codex are well known), but when we got the book we felt like it didn't live up to it. It's grown on me over the time since its release, I still hate "jump-possessed" but otherwise I'm fond of it now.
Aside 3) First codex of a new edition, it happens every time. They never quite sparkle like the latter ones.
Aside 4) People like to moan, myself included.
Aside 5) See asides 1 + 4 as a combination.
That's my 2 cents anyway.
Have a look in the homebrew rules thread and you'll see that I've prepared 2 supplements to try and bring the flavor of the old legions into gameplay, and there's 6 more on the way. Play testing is a seriously time consuming activity, especially the Iron Warriors one.

[mathhammer]

A lot of old sweats still want proper legions.
Due to FW and the HH series.... YOU HAVE NO CHANCE EVER AGAIN! Bwah ha ha ha aha ah!

No really the legions are done now, they wont do them again in 40k. Get over it.

this is correct.

The old legions are dead Horus killed them. In 40K Chaos Space Marines are warbands and have a limited number of marines left. The two largest are Abbadon and Huron. The biggest flaws in the chaos codex
1.) Should have titled it "Chaos Marines - Warbands"
2.) Should have allowed allied space marines with no chapter tactics.
3.) Should have made the opening quote to the book. "The Legions are dead."

[Ursa]

My experience with 6th ed CSM is limited but my best friend has three chaos armies (Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and world Eaters), all three themed all three beautifully painted and fluffy. All three sit on their shelves and now he plays deamons. (Thus why my experience is limited) I have read the dex and would not buy a chaos army. If I ever did I would use my marine codex and play renegades.
Frankly its disappointing that the first two codexes were so poorly written for sixth. Ive been very impressed with the Eldar, Tau and Loyalists Marine codexes heck I even begrudgingly have to admit to liking the deamons codex (I hate the whole concept of deamons in 40k or fantasy) . I have even gotten a few of the supplimental codexes and although very unpleased at the price points have liked them.
The CSM codex needs work but fret not as the supplimental codexes do offered a glimmer of hope.

[spaceman91]

Does anyone think we could get a 6.5?

[Arkhan Land]

I'de see it as more likely now that well have to pay for a handful data-slates :/

[Marshal_Loss]

Because the vast majority of CSM players wish for a return to a 3.5 system where we have a near infinite amount of options and customisation, both in terms of play style and sheer fluffiness if we wished to depict a specific Legion. As broken as some of the possible combos were, I miss that book so much! I doubt GW will ever return to anything quite like it, which is one of the main reasons why I moved to 30k.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

this is correct.

The old legions are dead Horus killed them. In 40K Chaos Space Marines are warbands and have a limited number of marines left. The two largest are Abbadon and Huron. The biggest flaws in the chaos codex
1.) Should have titled it "Chaos Marines - Warbands"
2.) Should have allowed allied space marines with no chapter tactics.
3.) Should have made the opening quote to the book. "The Legions are dead."

I don't think that is entirely true.

The Iron Warriors still maintain a very strong central structure and still operate within Grand Companies, of course this is still nothing like the legions of old, but shares many familiar traits, and so they still have specializations ingrained from their training and experience that affect their courses of action even as warbands.

[DarkLink]

There's no reason that CSM shouldn't have a Chapter Tactics equivalent. The current system of marks and icons is very clumsy and limited.

[rpricew]

I get the idea that people hate the CSM book because you can't really play in a competitive environment with the titled unit of the Codex, the "Chaos Space Marines". They are just not on the same level as other marines...

Having a unit of 10-20 get swept in combat because the Champion has to accept/issue a challenge and then loses said challenge takes the fun out of using the unit.

I've always believed that if CSMs lose combat, and then break from combat, they should be immune to sweeping advances. They would just fall back out of combat, because that's pretty fluffy. I also think that they shouldn't "Auto Rally" like loyalist marines and would have to roll to rally for it like any other unit. A modified version of ATSKNF which is just different enough, but still makes the standard CSM able to survive close combat and doesn't punish you for having to give/accept challenges. This would go a long way to putting them back on the board. But that's not the rule and this isn't really the place for wishlisting. :)

[DarkLink]

That is a part of the reason. The codex is so poorly balanced that it's basically Heldrake and friends. There are some fun units, like maulerfiends, but yes, the actual Marines are pretty sadfaced compared to basicallt any other Marine in the game. I mean, what was Phil Kelly thinking? 'Let's not change any of the cult Marine rules in any significant way and see if people stop complaining about how terrible the cult rules are'?

[mysterex]

I get the idea that people hate the CSM book because you can't really play in a competitive environment with the titled unit of the Codex, the "Chaos Space Marines".

Very much this. If the codex title reflected how it was predominately played competitively it would be called "Codex Helldrakes, Cultists & Spawn".

I'm a big fan of all the Night Lords stuff released so far by the Black Library and for me the background is a big part of what inspires me to build an army. Overall I tend to find the stories about the "bad guys" that much more interesting. I'd have thought that GW would want to leverage off this to build sales.

Fluff wise CSM are more divergent than SM (no Index Astartes for them) so I would have liked to have seen something like the chapter tactics built into the CSM codex.

I think that CSM suffer in two ways. Firstly the codex doesn't really work for people who want to play large numbers of CSM in power armour. And secondly I think that power armour (at least without bikes) regardless or whether it's traitor or loyalist, isn't really that strong in the current meta anyway.

[Eldar_Atog]

I mean, what was Phil Kelly thinking? 'Let's not change any of the cult Marine rules in any significant way and see if people stop complaining about how terrible the cult rules are'?

Did any of the cult units get new models when the new codex came out? It seemed to me that GW was really trying to push people away from the cult armies. When I was picking up my tzeentch themed army early this year, the GW staff was really pushing for me to ignore the cult units and pick several boxes of cultists.

[DarkLink]

Pretty much. It should have been blatantly obvious, 'hey, most cult units are pretty bad, and you can't make a real cult army out of them, let's fix that'. But they didn't.

[firestorm]

*sigh* I‘ve played Chaos Marines in various forms since the year 2000, when we had the 3rd Ed Codex. I then made an Iron Warriors army at the time the Index Astartes articles in WD were coming out, and used it a littlemore when the 3.5 Codex came out. Although I didn‘t play a lot of Chaos Marines with the 3.5 ‘dex, I would literally spend hours writing lists, the potential to make characterful (I‘m not a competative gamer, I play 40k for the setting and narrative potential first and foremost) but also EFFECTIVE armies felt almost limitless.

I didn‘t play 40k a lot during 4th Ed (as I discovered EPIC which is a far better game than 40k), but I had an idea for a Chaos Marine army brewing in my head for a few years so came back at the release of the 4th Ed Codex. I could see why so many of the 3.5 veterans loathed this Codex - if I‘d have spent all that time collecting and painting an impressive themed, powerful army (e.g. Nurgle or Khorne warband etc), to be restriced in the use of certain units, AND lose my aligned daemons, would have been a really bitter pill. But I persisted with the 4th Ed Codex. My biggest problem was that, although I wanted to go in a specific direction with the army, the Codex MADE you take certain units if you wanted the army to still be effective on the table top. As a result I had to accodate units like Obliterators and Daemon Princes in my army, despite the fact I didn‘t initially want to use them.

However, I persisted, spending a lot of time and effort to assemble and paint an army I could be proud to field, and then eventually settling on a list which focussed on a number of units I found effective - a mix of Chosen, Berzerkers, Plauge Marines and Obliterators. However I still felt irked that the Codex didn‘t allow me to field the Chaos Marine army I REALLY wanted to; also I found there was certain armies I couldn‘t do anything about, e.g. Space Wolves with Rune Priest, Long Fang Spam and Razorback Spam. So when rumours emerged that there would be a new Codex released with the new Edition of 40k, like many Chaos Marine players I was hopeful that this Codex would bring back the variety of effective choices we had in 3.5, as well as the feel and character of a proper Chaos Marine army.

So what went wrong, why do so many Chaos Players (like myself) feel so let down by our current Codex? Well, it‘s been said before, but it boils down to the fact that, like the previous edition, we‘re completely forced to go in a certain direction because a few units are emphatically better than many of the over-costed (Chosen!), bland (Raptors) and basically pointless (Mutilators) units in the Codex.

Personally, I just feel that GW are missing the point when it comes to Chaos. In the background (e.g. Black Library fiction, of which there is plenty) there are varying degrees - you‘ve got your barely funcitoning warband, getting by on piracy and avoiding a fight until the odds are overwhelmingly in their favour (e.g. A D-B‘s Night Lords Trilogy); the alliance of convenience of various warbands from differing Legions and Chapters, set on a common goal (e.g. invasion of Ultramar in Graham McNeill‘s The Chapter‘s Due); finally you‘ve got your full on apocalyptic invasion - thens of thousands of Chaos Marines, and/or an inumerable tide of Cultists, suppoerted by companies of armour and war engines (Word Bearers Trilogy, Gaunt‘s Ghosts saga). I‘d argue that the rules we get are a better reflection of the second of these, but don‘t adequately capture the first or last. In fact, I‘m sure they don‘t completely capture the second of the three either!

I wish they‘d paid more attention to the wealth of fiction and background material when developing the Codex - we could have had Cultists that are back-stabbing saboteurs (rather than just blobs of expendable infantry), Chosen which are truly reflective of millennia of fighting, and a terrifying array of vehicles and daemon engines. For starters, why do we only get one Land Raider variant? The former Mechanicum priests that maintain the Chaos Marines vehicles are no longer bound by oath and religion to Mars, they‘d be free to do whatever they want to the tanks - one thing I‘d really love to see in the Chaos Marine Codex is a more heavily armoured Transport with a capacity of 15-20 and an assault ramp. If we‘ve the ability to take 20-strong units of Chaos Marines, then shouldn‘t we have something we can transport them in???

Without going in to the level of customisation of the 3.5 codex, there could have been some characterful but effective rules to keep the ‘Legion‘ feel, and add more variety to the choices in the Codex. There could have been a ‘Chapter Traits‘ style system, focused on the Four major powers (e.g. Khorne could get FNP against Overwatch shots, or Tzeentch could get a bonus to Deny The Witch rolls (Tzeentch knows all the tricks and scemes of mortals, so will know most ‘spells‘ they try to use! ;) )) or a fighting style (e.g. Terror, giving a large number of units Infiltration, and get a ‘disruptive‘ affect on a set number of the opponent‘s units (e.g. start the game Pinned) to represent the use of sabotage and general back-stabbing sneakiness :P ).

I think it comes down the the fact that GW currently dont have anyone on the design team who really GETS Chaos in the way that Andy Chambers, Pete Haines etc did, or A D-B currrently does. I wish they had someone who realised that there is more to Chaos than Lol-randomness, and Champions being so power-hungry they‘ll pick a fight they have no chance of winning (how does any Chaos Lord think they‘re going to ascend to the head of their warband by throwing themselves on Draigo‘s Force Sword? ;) :D )

Because I still love the potential of Chaos, the narrative I have for my army, and above all I enjoy converting and painting Chaos Marine miniatures (for the most part!), I will stick to playing Chaos Marines. However, I still wait for the day when I can field my Chaos Marine army the way I have always wanted to - without havin to rely on a small number of over-powered units which I don‘t really feel fit the backgound I want to follow.

[bob sprocket]

But even the typical style of GW making the new models great rules wise didn't work. Apart from the Drake, how many fiends, raptor, warpsmith, apostle or mutilator kits do you think they sold? All of those units are rubbish.

[Iyandagar]

Been awhile since I felt the need, the need for speed.... Ok wrong setting, need to reply to a thread. I. LOVE. MY. CHAOS. SPACE. MARINE. ARMY....

Of the 7 armies I field it is the Chaotic lunatics that I most enjoy, whether it is old Abs chopping folk up (which he does with aplomb) or Khârn trying to out chop his pal Abs, which occasionally he does whilst growling suitable blood related insults and or offerings to the Dice Gods. My Heldrakes, plural indeed, however in almost 7 months or so of having two I believe I have fielded them together but twice. I love the versatility of my obliterators, one minute popping tanks, next plating up a nice Plasma cooked Marine pie. Marines, oh yeah, Nurgle Marines are just beautiful I don't care what Galaxy you are from, watching the majority of my opponents small arms fire ping uselessly from their poorly maintained armour never ceases to amuse.

I field my Maulerfiend sometimes, most times it never even gets to take a step as it's leg will invariably get shot off and then he sits there hurling insults to get someone to walk over and engage it in a punch up... It rarely works but hey I love the paint job so don't mind him catching the rays watching his chaotic pals getting neck deep in action.

Be'Lakor, seriously outstanding. I love that little soul especially when he is throwing his puppet Mastery nonsense around. And should somebody get him to step up to the plate he knocks the snot out of them without really bothering to flex a wing. I loved him so much I bought the model, no proxy nonsense here, no sirree Bob. Cypher.... Let's just say he's arriving in the post sometime next week and frankly I can't wait, just a shame I'll never get to field him against Dark Angels, they are one of my other armies... Oooooh and Jim The Lord of Skulls, no idea how I will fit him into anything other than apoc. Battles but by jingo I can't wait to see him trundle around the battlefield.

So what if I roll Spawnhood way too often, it's all good fun in the end.

Do I win?

Actually yes I do quite often when they get fielded.

Also been tabled horrifically once or twice...

But nobody will ever get me to see them as not worth the bother. Wim or lose I enjoy fielding them... All sorts of list builds, not just the usual few units.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

@POP

[Removed] the legion's aren't dead... read a book. [Removed] you might just might actually see that the legions aren't dead... instead we have to listen to you complain beause a vocal group actually wants to be able to play legion rules.. funny loyalists were just given legions rules... and will have them in forgeworld as well... hmm they both will have them... who ever would have thought that was possible... so again read a book.

[MrBo]

Honestly, since the release of belakor and cypher, my interest has increased ten fold.
I don't feel either are over the top game changers, merely new ways to play a stale codex.
Now ,with cypher,that i can field multiple infiltrating units of chosen without the randomness, I feel I can finally bring out raptors as a sensible mop-up crew.
And that's just the start, I think with the new dataslates all kinds of new combinations will be available.

[Popsical]

@POP
Might want to calm down there son. the legion's aren't dead... read a book. no seriously read an effing book and you might just might actually see that the legions aren't dead... instead we have to listen to you complain beause a vocal group actually wants to be able to play legion rules.. funny loyalists were just given legions rules... and will have them in forgeworld as well... hmm they both will have them... who ever would have thought that was possible... so again read a book.

Take a chill pill Rom baby.
I was having a larf. I find the endless bleating about CCSM quite funny tbh.
Honestly tho, the traitor legions of old are now covered with their primarchs and will soon get the demon primarchs.
Why would GW make a copy of what is already done by FW?
FW are going to produce possessed models by the look of things too.
GW will continue to make 40k CM different to the legions of old because its good business to make variance.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

@pop

when that becomes a reality then you will see a large section of the chos fan base move their armies over to the 30k realm. i know i for one will as soon as i get the oppertunity my death guard and my world eaters will be legion companies not some waterdown pathetic excuse. so i say bring it on most of my collections are already at the point where i no longer buy GW i buy forgeworld proper and honestly its worth the money and the wait when compared to the crap i getfrom gw.

[Garradh]

It took all of three games and two purchases to upgrade my 3.5 Iron Warriors to a 6th Black Legion list. Lots of stuff got left by the wayside, but I thoroughly enjoy the list I currently run. Abaddon with Tzeentch terminators in a Land Raider, Khornate Chosen, two regular squads of Cheapmarines, and a squad of Cultists in a bunker with a quad gun. I might have squeezed a Heldrake in there too and simply forgot about it. I played that list five or six times in 6th and hung up my spurs, it ate things alive.

Having said that, I see why people think there's a lot wrong with the new codex. When I'm not playing the Black Legion list I love playing my first CSM love, World Eaters. In the new edition this is best described as "tricky" and "unfluffy" as there's no point in taking true Khorne Berserkers. While I personally like the Champions rules just for pawning off the challenge with a squad leader instead of Kharn or Abaddon, again I can see where it's damaging to units without Fearless. I think that's what the complaint boils down to - CSMs, even with VotLW, do not compare to Loyalists. GW completely underestimates how powerful ATSKNF is.

As for buying new models - eh. Eh? Eh. I bought a Hellturkey because you can't not take one, they're too good. The other demon engines are IMO too big and too easy to kill, so I never bought them even though I suppose I can see where a Maulerfiend would be fun against gunline armies (except it won't live to cross the field). Warp Talons look awesome but no, Mutilators need a Land Raider delivery system and honestly CSM Terminators do the job just as well but can shoot.

I feel C:CSM suffers from the melee mindset of 5th Ed in a shooty 6th ed. It's a fine codex. It's not a good codex.

[Anggul]

I think the book would be lovely if they had just done the thing which I think is a total no-brainer. Give everything access to the cult rules.

By far the worst thing about the codex is that you can have (for example) Plague Marines with FnP... and then the Lord leading them can't have it, nor can the Chosen, or the Terminators, or indeed anything else. Just the standard Marines. Why can't the Havocs be Plague Marine Havocs? The same goes for only Berserkers having WS5 and FC, when their higher-up brethren who have earned the right to wear Terminator Armour (which when it comes to a Khorne army means you're a better fighter) don't.

The thing people seem to misunderstand is that it isn't necessarily the specific Legions that people want. It's the ability to make their army fluffy and all have the same rules. Not all Plague Marines are Death Guard, not all Berserkers are World Eaters, not all Noise Marines are Emperor's Children. It isn't about Legions, it's about a lack of (what have come to be known as) 'cult' rules across the army. That, I think, is the main problem with the codex. I don't even play Chaos, but I feel really sorry for, as an example, my friend who plays Death Guard, and has a core of Plague Marines which are tougher than his Lord (when not using Typhus), Terminators and Havocs for no conceivable reason. There's no reason he shouldn't be allowed to upgrade them to have FnP to represent that they're Plague Marines in Terminator Armour, or Plague Marine Havocs.

Can you imagine if under the Space Marines Chapter Tactics it said: 'Only your Tactical Marines get half of this. No reason, we've just decided that all of those other units don't get it.'? It would be ridiculous, people would be calling them up on it all over the place and deriding it as one of the most stupid and pointless things they've ever seen, totally breaking the fluff and immersion. That's exactly what those poor CSM players have to deal with.

It's like having an Iron Hands army, but only the Tactical Marines get the FnP. It's like having a White Scars army, but only the Tactical Marines have Hit & Run. It's like having a Space Wolves army, but only the Grey Hunters have Counter Attack. It's like having a Blood Angels army, but only the Tactical Marines have The Red Thirst. It's like having an Imperial Fists army, but only the Tactical Marines have Bolter Drill.

I could go on, but I think I've made my point. It breaks fluffy immersion, which is what the game is all about. Again, I don't play CSM, but I completely understand why the codex was a let-down. Fluffy immersion is a huge deal, and it fails on that point in so many ways.

[Baneblade]

While I think the current codex is far better than the abomination that was the previous codex, it does leave me wanting in some aspects. I want more fluff options and restriction. If the Imperials can have 9 tactics to fit the fluff then why can't the Traitors have 10? One for the each of the legions, and the 10th to represent the renegades.

Add some fluffy restrictions as well. There is no reason that the Emperor's Children should take fortifications. They will not lower themselves to did in the muck, that is for lesser legions like the Iron Warriors. Likewise the Iron Warriors should be forced to take a fortification, since that is the first thing they do in any engagement, dig the trench line and move in gun emplacements. Death Guard are foot sloggers and should not take bikes, but fluff and history be damned when there is a way to take T6 marines. The Imperials are able to take allies from their own book by using different chapter tactics in their detachments. Why can't the Traitors. Why shouldn't there be the possibility of Kharn attacking his allied detachment of Emperor's Children? After all that is how he got the title of "Betrayer."

GW can make the legions distinct, but very able to make them radically different from the FW legions. After all these are not the same legions during the heresy. They are broken, scattered, or lost to the warp. A Word Bearers list should play differently from the Black Legion, even though they are the most "open minded" of the Chaos legions. Creating a lesser Dark Apostle like the BA Sanguinary Priests that can be passed around to different units would create flavor. Make Fabius Bile a character that can be taken by any force regardless of legion traits, since he sells his service to any warband, but for fluff purposes have a disadvantage for joining a Black Legion warband (Abbadon is still sour on the whole try to clone Horus stunt). Renegades should have a greater Imperial influence in their options since they rebelled later. Simple things like having some units have access to assault cannons but are limited to a 10 man squads due to their organization being shaped by the Codex. Bring back the Lieutenant level HQ and add some fun rules to represent the paranoia of the Lord or the ambition of the Lieutenant to back stab the lord.

If it was Too Long and you did not read, here is the summary. Add fluffy rules to make each warband unique and have different play styles. If the Iron Hands can have the old school bionics rules for the entire list, then the CSM can have their legion flair. However keep the advantages and disadvantages level so that we do not have the case of the 3.5 Iron Warriors. A WAAC player should not be able to look at one legion as the default. Every legion needs to viable but different. I know that this is a tall order, but that is my wish.

[Popsical]

@pop

when that becomes a reality then you will see a large section of the chos fan base move their armies over to the 30k realm. i know i for one will as soon as i get the oppertunity my death guard and my world eaters will be legion companies not some waterdown pathetic excuse. so i say bring it on most of my collections are already at the point where i no longer buy GW i buy forgeworld proper and honestly its worth the money and the wait when compared to the crap i getfrom gw.

I mainly buy FW and my only army left in 40k is a FW list too. I still like some of the studio figures but im selective to the extreme.
So i can empathise a little with you.

Look at what almost all of you want from CCSM, and you will see that GW dont do models for cult termies or havocs etc etc.
Sure you can convert, but... other companies will sneak in on the void and GW will lose sales.
They simply will NOT allow that to happen again if possible.

Look at the figs needed:
Khorne termies
Tzeentch termies
Nurgle termies
Slaanesh termies
Slaanesh raptors
Khorne raptors
Tzeentch raptors
Nurgle havocs
Etc etc etc.

Yes i hear you cry "upgrade sprues" and youd be right. Im just not sure GW wants to continue with upgrade sprues.

[daboarder]

umm.....paintjobs work for loyalists......And those options already exist......

so....


strawman?

[Popsical]

Meh. Plague marines have maggots and stuff yeah?
Plague havocs or termies can have the bonus without maggots?
Seems GW let you wysiwyg, mark of nurgle or plague marine?

[daboarder]

go away and troll somewhere else pop seriously.....

[Popsical]

Im not trolling bud.
The issue is obviously sensitive to you, but honestly i cant see GW giving you what you want.
The HH legions are slowly taking up the gap left by 3.5 and there wont be much cross over.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Im not trolling bud.
The issue is obviously sensitive to you, but honestly i cant see GW giving you what you want.
The HH legions are slowly taking up the gap left by 3.5 and there wont be much cross over.
Given that a lot of the 30k and 40k stuff for loyalists cross over these days I wouldn't be shocked to see a book with legions in at SOME point.
But i don't think it's necessarily needed to make THIS codex allow "legion warband" friendly armies, they're not ideal but they're do-able esp with allies.
Given how fantastic the new smurf book was though you can see why the CSM players felt a bit left out in the cold.
Still it's a decent enough book unless you're after top-table edge.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

here is how i knew this book was horrible. when i opened the space marines codex and looked at what they did and i literally took my chaos minis stopped any work i had been doing on them and put them up on my shelf. pulled out imperial guard got a hold of imperial Armour 1 mk2 and started to work hard core on a mechanized company. the chaos codex is so sad compared to what they were able to do with loyalists. And this is what continues to drive me insane. read a book any book 9x outa 10 the enemy is chaos of some flavor or some denomination. And yet you look at what we were given and its paltry. it is a pathetic excuse for a codex. And me i like kelly books but thi one... this one i do not like. given how much hate there was for 5th dex i kind of hoped that they would strike a balance between 3.5 and 5 and come out with something in the middle. instead we got copy and paste and half hearted attempt at some new junk units.

[Popsical]

GW gave us the black legion supplement and everyone hated it too, probably in hindsight not a good way to encourage GW to bother with anymore.
Im sure there are plenty of people that like both, we just dont hear too much from them.
I quite like it tbh.