Points comparison in dark vengeance?

[knighter]

Hey guys so small question, Me and a group of guys are getting back/(after 8 year leave) to warhammer 40k and I purchased dark vengeance and in order to compare army values with my friends current armies I added up the totals of all the units for chaos space marines and dark angels (using their codex's) and it seems with only the contents in the box the dark angels army = 535 points (with no upgrades or addons, just bare units) and the chaos space marines army = 460. Thats a almost 20% point advantage for dark angels, but isn't this box supposed to be even when the two armies play eachother? Can anyone explain this to me?

Thanks <3

[daboarder]

welcome to the Bull****, hope your not a chaos player

[knighter]

in other words, take out a couple terminators from the dark angels army to make for actual fair games? (as in deathmatch games etc)

[Ben_S]

Who says they should be even?

Anyway, you can use upgrades to make it a bit closer. Run the Chosen Champion as a Dark Apostle.

[SaveModifier]

If you play through the scenarios, they're really interesting and a good learning too to help you get to grips with the gamel, the forces aren't balanced, but the rules for them in the starter set don't give them all the special rules.

[Chaoschrist]

I don't recall any of the recent 40k startersets to be evenly matched.

I mean, Black reach had Orks at a disadvantage and Maccragge had Nids at a disadvantage. Not so sure about the 3rd ed. set, but a single 20 man squad of Dark eldar warriors vs. a Marine squad + a land speeder seems unbalanced.

But for the sake of learning the rules I guess they forces are totally fine.

[Ben_S]

Black reach had Orks at a disadvantage and Maccragge had Nids at a disadvantage. Not so sure about the 3rd ed. set, but a single 20 man squad of Dark eldar warriors vs. a Marine squad + a land speeder seems unbalanced.

If only we could discern a pattern...

[Darren Richardson]

If only we could discern a pattern...

Yeah don't play as any army except as Space Marines LOL :)

Truth be told, if you were to compare the points values from the army books for any version of the game, including WFB one side is always at an advantage points way, always has been always will be.

[dirkspair]

War is hell! But look at it this way, if you play the chaos side in DV against the dark angels you can never really loose. if you loose it is because of the uneven points, so it does not really count, if you win it is because of your brilliance :)

[Eberk]

Did anyone read the scenarios before whining ?? Did anyone even consider the purpose of the Dark Vengeance box ?

The models included in the Dark Vengeance set are for use in the 6 scenarios included in the box. Note that each scenario has different models that can/must be used. There is even a rule that dead DA models in a scenario can't be used in following scenarios. Thus reducing the DA point value in the last battle.

Nobody ever, ever said that the 2 armies (models) should be exactly the same point value,

The Dark Vengeance box is perfect for new players. You get the models to play 6 (SIX!!) different battles/scenarios instead of just the same equal point battle over and over again. The more games from a single box the better for new players.

The Dark Vengeance box is NOT for veteran players who think they know best and want only very specific models because they are the only 'viable' ones from the CSM codex.


BTW I'm a Chaos Marine player and have used the Cultists (also as renegade IG) and use the Warlord and Chosen as Chaos Lords in my battles (they're gorgeous models after all). I would even consider buying a second box if not for the DA models I can't use. :)


In short... don't compare the point value of the models included in the box, that was never the intention

[Darren Richardson]

The Dark Vengeance box is perfect for new players. You get the models to play 6 (SIX!!) different battles/scenarios instead of just the same equal point battle over and over again. The more games from a single box the better for new players.

um.. I guess you never brought the 4th edition set then, it too had 6 missions, each increasing the amount of minis used each time while teaching the rules, and it had an online expansion with more missions to teach more rules on their website (later compiled as a book, which I own a spineless version of)

Now blackreach on the other hand for 5th ed, what a cop out, no missions, nothing.....


BTW I'm a Chaos Marine player and have used the Cultists (also as renegade IG) and use the Warlord and Chosen as Chaos Lords in my battles (they're gorgeous models after all). I would even consider buying a second box if not for the DA models I can't use. :)

Do you have any gaming clubs near you, or friends who want to buy the game and want to be space marines, if so try seeing if they would want to swap the DA for the traitors....

And lastly, I personally never complained, I was just stating that ALL the box versions of the core games, if you worked them out points wise, they were all unbalanced from the get go, and I mean ALL core games they made....

Space Marine/Epic; WFB; BFG; WH40K etc.....

[Chumbalaya]

The "armies" aren't even remotely even, beyond just point values. DA get Terminators, Bikes, 3 characters and lots of plasma. Chaos gets footslogging melee units and 1 walker. Unless you're using the scenarios, it'll be a landslide every time. DV is great for picking up some awesome minis and the greatness of the mini rulebook, but it's pretty poor as a starting point for new players.

Honestly, I wouldn't even recommend folks start 40k nowadays. The rules are a disorganized mess, the newer models are pretty hit or miss and the buy-in for even "standard" play is absurd. Compared to 8 years ago, however, there is a tremendous variety of new games that have sprung up everywhere. I'd suggest checking some of them out too, especially if you're looking for a skirmish or epic scale game.

[Dalleron]

along the lines of things said earlier.

Think of Dark Vengence as a seperate game, not an intro into 40k, and you will be fine. It just happens to use rules from 40k. I mean in the box set the libby has a power not from Divination, who does that?

[Xaric]

The DV kit is not intended for collecting the units inside its not intended for use outside the boundary's of the box 6 mission because they do not supply you with the codex also it gives people who are vets a means to play the game thinking outside the box look at the mission where the DA are hopelessly out numbered or a mission to stop a potential ally from going berserk its the grim future nothing is going to be fair in most case's people whine because I beat them with less troops standing because I fight for the objectives not how many body's I can kill unless purge the alien try doing this guys a 1500 point game but you get 1000 pts and they get 1500 but with 1 more objective and that objective can be a 200pts unit so you get 1200 pts hence call it escort the VIP psyker if the enemy kill it they loose the objective but if they get a troop into combat they capture it as a POW see I just came up with a new mission from the top of my head.

[Eberk]

um.. I guess you never brought the 4th edition set then, it too had 6 missions, each increasing the amount of minis used each time while teaching the rules, and it had an online expansion with more missions to teach more rules on their website (later compiled as a book, which I own a spineless version of)

Now blackreach on the other hand for 5th ed, what a cop out, no missions, nothing.....
I know about the 4th edition... It had the Aquila Lander wreckage included and the first mission was to get a SM lieutenant (strange model though, more an IG Officer of the Fleet) from the board while there were Tyranid floating mines around (moving at random). Wasn't it ?

I never said Dark vengeance was the only box that had 6 missions or something like that :)


Do you have any gaming clubs near you, or friends who want to buy the game and want to be space marines, if so try seeing if they would want to swap the DA for the traitors....
I know, I traded the 5th edition SM for some more Orks (a couple of times actually :D). The point I was trying to make was that I preferred the CSM models even they aren't worth the same amount of points as the DA models


And lastly, I personally never complained, I was just stating that ALL the box versions of the core games, if you worked them out points wise, they were all unbalanced from the get go, and I mean ALL core games they made....

Space Marine/Epic; WFB; BFG; WH40K etc.....
My reply wasn't meant personally, if you understood it as such then I appologize for that. It is just that I am so sick of everybody whining and moaning about everything that the reply was a bit too straightforward instead of a little bit smoother ;)

This is a hobby, it shouldn't evoke this amount of moaning and nerd-rage, it should be relaxing, something that helps you get away from real life. It doesn't really matter that all boxes aren't equal point-wise, they were all fun to buy and play with.

I just started a campaign with a friend and got a 8/1 VP win in my first battle (my CSM versus IG) where I completely cleared the table of IG... and I had fun with my CSM ! And who cares if the codex isn't as good as some others - it only makes my victories more sweet :cool:

[Darren Richardson]

I know about the 4th edition... It had the Aquila Lander wreckage included and the first mission was to get a SM lieutenant (strange model though, more an IG Officer of the Fleet) from the board while there were Tyranid floating mines around (moving at random). Wasn't it ?

Yep that's the one, and yes Lieutenant Varras does look more IG then SM, I imagine him being a Marine who didn't quite make it the whole way, Fluff wise not all those who go through the processes and fail the final tests die.


I never said Dark vengeance was the only box that had 6 missions or something like that :)

You're right you didn't, sorry If I implied that, my bad.....


My reply wasn't meant personally, if you understood it as such then I appologize for that. It is just that I am so sick of everybody whining and moaning about everything that the reply was a bit too straightforward instead of a little bit smoother ;)

I know it wasn't personal, I personally have never had a problem with the forces being uneven if the figures look good and they are an army I want, I just wanted to get the point across to everyone that I don't care what the points values are for the sides, as long as you enjoy using the figures in playing the game, that's all I've ever cared about...

I acutally started playing with WFB about 20 years ago when it was the High Elves and Goblins box set, again the Gobbo's were outclassed points wise in that too...

I'm glad your Chaos Marines are doing so well

PS. Shssh don't tell the Inquisitor I said that.... I'm and Emperor worshiping toady ;)